Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo Racing => Topic started by: protomech on July 05, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
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Okay. It's not TTXGP any more. I'm sure I'll get used to the new name .. eventually.
Probably the premiere electric race event of the year .. who's going?!
I'll try and keep tabs on the race from afar, though I will be moving that weekend. We haven't had much interest with the Google Hangout in the past; are the races at bad times for people to duck in and out, is Google Hangout a poor venue for organizing group remote viewing / discussion, or is there little interest in following the races in real time?
Race Schedule (http://www.mazdaraceway.com/red-bull-us-grand-prix) is up. Events get started thursday evening.
Friday July 19, Practice
1:25pm 1:55pm Free Practice e-Roadracing World Cup
Saturday July 20, Qualifying
5:00pm 5:30pm Qualifying Practice e-Roadracing World Cup
Sunday July 21, RACE!
9:40am 10:10am RACE e-Roadracing World Cup
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Brammo's been pretty busy on facebook.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/q74/s720x720/1000443_10151485275760443_153675764_n.jpg)
1st: The major prototype competitors are out. Lightning is out. MotoCzysz is out. Mission is out (expected, but I had a bit of hope that Mission Motorcycles might show up). Münch is out, as is every european competitor.
I wrote a bit about this here:
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2013/07/19/2013-eroadracing-laguna-seca-observations-from-practice/ (http://protomech.wordpress.com/2013/07/19/2013-eroadracing-laguna-seca-observations-from-practice/)
It's a Brammo and Zero show this weekend.
2nd: there's a couple of tiers of competition starting to develop. And there's a wide range of experience on-track.
Tier 1 is EBoz and Shane Turpin. Shane has done a practice session with Brammo and he's wearing Brammo gear now. Where's Steve? I think Brammo said Steve had pressing engagements elsewhere during the last AFM race.. Also, Turpin is fast. Really fast if he's pipping EBoz.
I think we'll see during the race that these two are more than a little competitive .. should make for some excellent racing. 1:34 in practice is still a bit off Mission's qualifying pace in 2011 (1:31), but this is just free practice. I wonder if we'll see an attempt to draft for part of a lap to boost one rider's laptime and try to take the record down.
Shane talks here about dropping the lap record down to 1:30 before the first FP session:
Newest Team Icon Brammo racer Shane Turpin! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIc_Da_lphY#ws)
Tier 2 is Ted Rich and Shelina Moreda, with Kenyon Kluge a bit behind. Ted is riding a 2013 Zero S; I would bet that he's packing a Size 6 controller (stock Zero is Size 4, Empulse R/TTX is Size 6) to be that close to Shelina. He also has a little bikini screen on the bike, which should boost his top-end speed and acceleration.
You can also see ducting forcing air into the motor cooling fins. Hardly elegant, but more sustained power = more better.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1052790_10151547804162404_55982217_o.jpg)
I believe all 4 Zeros racing this weekend have Size 6 controllers. These are not stock bikes like the Zeros from last year .. and (probably excepting Kenyon Kluge's bike) I believe they're all personally owned.
Tier 3 is Jeremiah Johnson (Zero S) and Arthur Kowitz (Empulse TTX). Brandon Miller is well behind .. I know Jeremiah Johnson is pretty experienced. I don't know if Brandon is having setup/hardware issues with his bike or if it's just a software (brain experience) thing.
Btw, here's a good profile (http://www.eroadracing.com/?p=633) on Arthur. He and Brandon are no slouches when it comes to racing. But it definitely seems like there's a gap between fast guys on a bike and professional racers.
Qualifying today (Saturday), Race tomorrow (Sunday)!
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Have fun Proto...I wish I was there.
Too bad you weren't out last year...could have ridden 17 mile drive.
G
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I'm in the process of transitioning to a new job that should make travel a little easier. I'd love to make it out next year.
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Here's practice Friday:
Brammo's been pretty busy on facebook.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/q74/s720x720/1000443_10151485275760443_153675764_n.jpg)
Saturday Qualifying Practice is underway. @eRoadRacing (https://twitter.com/eRoadRacing) is providing a live tweet stream of times as they come in.
Brandon Miller is flying vs yesterday. He will race Sunday, unless the cutoff time is radically different. Very happy for him.
The fastest Zeros - which have beefed up controllers and additional motor cooling - appear to be passing Shelina. More motor > transmission? May be a hint for street bike performance in 2014..
Here's QP2 rankings:
Turpin 1.32.516 RR - very very close to Rapp's qualifying time in 2011.
EBoz 1.33.087 RR
Kluge 1.48.068 S
Rich 1.49.061 S
Moreda 1.51.019 TTX
Johnson 1.52.046 S
Kowitz 1.54.417 TTX
Miller 1.55.625 S
Big gains vs Friday. Turpin is 1.1s away from Rapp's QP time and the electric course record, and faster than Rapp's fastest race time. Can the RRs maintain that pace for an entire race length?
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QP complete. Will update the above once final times are available. Turpin, EBoz, and Kluge will be on the front row to grid.
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With QP over, I think we have a preliminary answer to some questions:
What's better, more motor or a multi-gear transmission?
More power = more better. Assuming Shelina is riding the TTX as hard as Ted Rich and Kenyon Kluge are riding their bikes - I think a reasonable assumption - then the 40 kW Empulse is falling behind the probably 50+ kW Size 6 Zeros.
Except for that little bit about heat..
How's that air cooling working out on the racetrack?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1075764_10151487127690443_707261185_n.jpg)
"Team SBK in pits, putting ice on motor. — at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca." (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151487127690443&set=a.10151487126360443.1073741853.108820970442&type=1&theater#) from Brammo's facebook.
Ice on the motor will help for QP, but won't help much in the actual race. The Zeros - except maybe Miller's? - are running air ducts to the motor for additional forced-air cooling. And even then, the motors benefit from ice cooling?
Big liquid-cooled motors with direct drive seem like the winning combination for race performance.
Curiously, this is the combination that Brammo, Lightning, Mission, MotoCzysz, Munch, and pretty much everyone else are running in their prototype bikes.
Also the same combination that Tesla runs in their production cars.
We know now whether air-cooled direct-drive vs liquid-cooled multi-gear qualifies faster. Who takes the checkered flag tomorrow? More power or better heat dissipation?
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Maybe Zero should fill their air ducts with crushed ice?
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I believe ice cooling was not allowed under the old TTXGP rules. Not sure if that was just for race or if that applies to QP too?
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Official times are up.
http://www.eroadracing.com/?p=747 (http://www.eroadracing.com/?p=747)
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Gas2 has some coverage:
http://gas2.org/2013/07/20/eroadracing-qualifying-practice-laguna-seca-2013/ (http://gas2.org/2013/07/20/eroadracing-qualifying-practice-laguna-seca-2013/)
They also have some information about the TTX, and better links to the QP results. Go check out the article!
Friday:
(http://c1gas2org.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2013/07/QP1.jpg)
Saturday:
(http://c1gas2org.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2013/07/QP2.jpg)
Brammo has continued to update their facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc). They have the best on-site photos and videos.
"There is much to do and the race team will be working into the night getting ready for tomorrow, race day."
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1069199_10151487198390443_1647211381_n.jpg)
Varying reports of race start time. Gas 2 says 9 AM sharp. Race schedule says 9:40 AM. Pacific time, of course.
I don't know of any live video or audiostream. @eRoadRacing on twitter seems to have the best race coverage I've found. Has anyone found anything better?
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Holy crap. That was insane. (I am here, typing on the stupid phone)
Turpin's brake fluid caught fire. (!!!!) He was getting faster and faster every lap until something happened with the bike, he started to pull off the track, and apparently the rear brake lines were slightly too close to the hot batteries or something.
Totally nutty. Also Shelina lost traction in the corkscrew but is here and is thankfully fine. The TTX lost most of its bits on the right side but otherwise also appears to be fine.
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q73/s720x720/998198_705349159482090_2106927539_n.jpg)
Both RR bikes got to over 140 mph.
Gavin
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Susanna Schick got an interview with Brammo talking about the components in the Empulse:
http://gas2.org/2013/07/21/eroadracing-usa-round-1-an-unexpected-podium/ (http://gas2.org/2013/07/21/eroadracing-usa-round-1-an-unexpected-podium/)
David Herron has his usually excellent race report up now:
http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/07/in-surprising-finish-bostrom-kluge-and.html (http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/07/in-surprising-finish-bostrom-kluge-and.html)
David claims Turpin's RR ran out of battery capacity before the end of the race.
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Racing results are odd. Shane Turpin finished as many laps as everyone else in the entire race except for Bostrom, yet he gets a DNF whereas the rest of the field gets a placement...?
I suppose I can gleam a rule out of this (something along the lines of you have to still finish whatever lap you're on when the winner passes the checkered flag), but it seems kind of odd that he did enough of the race to have done everything they did and faster than they did it, but doesn't get a place on the podium because he ran into a mechanical/electrical problem at a distance greater than any of the rest completed. Well, they probably did complete their cool down laps and made it to the pits, but if one of them had crossed the finish line and immediately lost power and screeched to a halt, they would have had a place even though they didn't make it as far as Turpin or as fast.
I suppose, if he had pushed his bike around the last lap - or in another scenario, coasted slowly over the finish line if pushing isn't allowed - his 9 lap time would have been horrendous, but by virtue of having finished a 9th lap - would he have come in 2nd?
And, I guess this brings up a potential new strategy mechanism. If the bike senses it does not have enough energy to finish a lap, it goes into creep mode so that at least it completes whatever lap it was on rather than DNFs well ahead of the lapped traffic...
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The race was truncated to 8 laps for the lapped traffic because noone still on the field had completed lap 8 when Bostrom finished his lap 9.
If Turpin was still on field in creep mode working towards his 9th lap, then the lapped traffic would have a chance to catch up to him on their 9th lap. That chance would remain open as long as *anyone* still racing had completed 8 laps.
At least, that's my understanding.
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David claims Turpin's RR ran out of battery capacity before the end of the race.
He definitely did not run out of battery. There was some kind of malfunction or safety shutoff that forced him off the track.
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I got curious so I did a web search and looked at some rules. The AMA rules are online at:
http://amaproracing.cdn.racersites.com/assets/AMAPro-RR-2013-Rulebook.pdf (http://amaproracing.cdn.racersites.com/assets/AMAPro-RR-2013-Rulebook.pdf)
- Races are officially ended for all competitors at the completion
of the lap on which the checkered flag is displayed to the winner.
Riders will be credited with all official laps they complete during a
race unless a penalty has been assessed.
- Once the race leader takes the checkered flag and all active riders
complete their working lap, finishing positions will be determined
according to the most laps traveled in the least total time, whether
a motorcycle is actively circulating or not.
The first rule seems to indicate that a rider would have to complete the lap he was on, but the other rule would seem to indicate that he would get credit for laps completed "whether actively circulating or not"...?
Unfortunately, for TTXGP all I could find was a list of technical rules for the bike's engineering with a section that stated that the race format would be determined by supplementary regulations issued for each event. :(
It looks like the event at Laguna Seca was an FIM event, which has a rule:
http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/2013_GP_Regulations_updated_during_the_2013_season_(9_July_2013).pdf (http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/2013_GP_Regulations_updated_during_the_2013_season_(9_July_2013).pdf)
To be counted as a finisher in the race and be included in the results a
rider must:
- Complete 75% of the race distance.
- Cross the finish line on the race track (not in the pit lane)
within five minutes of the race winner. The rider must be in
contact with his machine.
I guess if you could push the bike around the track in under 5 minutes you could claim your time.
(Note that another rule indicates that the entrance to the track closes on the checkered flag so you can't be in the pits fixing your bike and then go out and do a lap within 5 minutes - you had to have been already on the track at that point.)
In both the FIM and AMA rules the rule for lapped riders is very simply that they just complete the lap they are on when the checkered flag comes out. There is no consideration for whether anyone or everyone is a lap down. They checker the #1 rider and everyone else's race ends the next time they cross the finish line and their number of laps factors into their standing along with their time.
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FYI...
Ted's bike has a size 4 controller with an "ice box". No motor modifications, only a P-51 style belly scoop to direct some more air at the motor. Ted pulled a 1:49 on "stock" drivetrain, i.e. no additional power or non-stock components, just more cooling for the controller. Personally I think a fan would have been a better choice than an ice box, not sure the logic behind that decision.
Brandon's bike had a size 6 controller, no special cooling for controller or motor.
Jeremiah had a size 6 and a "blown" (forced-air internal cooling) motor.
Kenyon's bike had a "blown" controller (size 6) and motor, and was apparently thermally stable if you look at his consistent lap times.
"the 40 kW Empulse is falling behind the probably 50+ kW Size 6 Zeros" Doesn't the empulse run a size 6?
I was really bummed there were so many DNF's. Everyone involved is a real class act and I would have loved to have seen a full field battling it out 'till the end.
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How fast were the Zeros getting on the straight? Their stock limit is around 95 with only 80 sustained, the Empulses can break 100 and there is no secondary spec for sustained speed, the RRs were doing 140. Did top speed come into play?
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Zero posted the lap breakdowns on facebook:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1078858_10152102939688677_1815317170_o.jpg)
Kenyon posted a top speed of 165 km/h on his fast lap, before settling down into a set of slightly slower (but still consistent laps). Top speeds for subsequent laps were in the 144-160 km/h range.
Jeremiah Johnson posted very consistent top speeds around 143 km/h.
Arthur Kowitz posted consistent top speeds on the TTX around 150-156 km/h.
Looking at the practice sessions, we can see this trend again. Kenyon leads the production bike pack, followed by Shelina, followed by Ted Rich and Arthur, followed by Brandon and Jeremiah.
I note in photos Kenyon appears to have a fairing of some type. I wonder if that's what led him to push his top speed so much? Or perhaps he's running slightly taller gearing?
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Very cool that everyone is so engaged and paid such close attention to the racing this weekend. I think the trouble with comparing the performance of the bikes is this:
1. There are no true "eSuperStock" rules, so each bike is modified to a varying extent, although they were all based on a production platform. The bike that Keynon was on was not the same bike he raced a ReFuel and in speaking with him after the race he admitted that he would not classify it as a SuperStock bike.
2. Rider skill and experience makes a huge difference. As these bikes get faster, the rider factors in more and more. All of these racers have varying experience levels, but are all technically "Pros" by any reasonable measure. The rider needs to have confidence in the bike, track, and conditions in order to exploit the full capability of the machine.
3. Shelina crashed and took out Ted Rich, who was looking very race-y. It would have been interesting to see how the race unfolded and who was able to maintain the lap times. At this point, we can only guess based on the qualifying times.
Anyhow, it's clear that Zero found some speed between ReFuel and Laguna and I was very impressed with their performance. These lap times are incredible for production based bikes. I'm stoked that there will be REAL competitive racing this season and I also think we can improve from where we are. Round 1 at ReFuel was advantage Brammo, Round 2 at Laguna was advantage Zero, now we'll see how we stack up at "The Brickyard" in 3 weeks!...
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Can't wait! I WILL make this next race : )
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Did you guys see the wreck video? E-bikes are now fast enough to engage in some spectacular crashes.
Electric Motorcycle Racing Crash Laguna Seca (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbiRKL4O2S0#ws)
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The best part is the dude on the scooter.
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The best part is the dude on the scooter.
And the very clear signs of frustration from Shelina ;D
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Very cool that everyone is so engaged and paid such close attention to the racing this weekend. I think the trouble with comparing the performance of the bikes is this:
1. There are no true "eSuperStock" rules, so each bike is modified to a varying extent, although they were all based on a production platform. The bike that Keynon was on was not the same bike he raced a ReFuel and in speaking with him after the race he admitted that he would not classify it as a SuperStock bike.
David Herron reports (http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/07/performance-comparison-between-empulse.html) that Kenyon's bike upgraded the controller to a Size 6 and added additional forced-air cooling to the motor and controller. Additionally he added a fairing to his bike; his top speeds were markedly higher than any of the other Zeros.
David also reports (http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/07/zero-wins-esuperstock-award-almost-as.html) that there WAS a eSuperStock award passed out to Kenyon .. I think eSuperStock basically boils down to production-based. I strongly dislike (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?3091-Transmission-Questions-Answered&p=39212&viewfull=1#post39212) the term "stock" when it's being applied to either the TTX or these modified Zeros.
Anyhow, it's clear that Zero found some speed between ReFuel and Laguna and I was very impressed with their performance. These lap times are incredible for production based bikes. I'm stoked that there will be REAL competitive racing this season and I also think we can improve from where we are. Round 1 at ReFuel was advantage Brammo, Round 2 at Laguna was advantage Zero, now we'll see how we stack up at "The Brickyard" in 3 weeks!...
At the second link above, David compares the lap times between 2010 and today.
2010: Michael Czysz posted a 1:44.496 best lap time and went on to win on his E1PC bike.
2013: Shane Turpin posted a 1:32.581 best lap time on the RR
2013: Kenyon Kluge posted a 1:48.706 best lap time on the S (though his subsequent laps were 1:50+).
The Brammo, Lightning, and MotoCzysz bikes have continuously improved over the last three years.. but it's amazing looking back all at once to see how much we've improved. The race bikes of 2010 are closer in performance to today's production bikes than to today's race bikes.
I hope to see a Zero vs Brammo rematch at Indy.