Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: GeorgeS on September 27, 2010, 11:47:40 AM
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The Empulse specs say the 8.0 will recharge in 1.5 hours. This implies an approximate 4.3 Kw charger,---bigger than both the Volt and Leaf's 3.3 kw charger. Do we have any info from Brammo on the details of the charger?? I've heard it will take a standard L2, 220V charger conforming to SAE 1772.
Anybody got some details??
Thx,
GSB
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Here are the latest Battery/Charging specs from the Brammo website.
Empulse Batteries
Battery Type BRAMMO Lithium-Ion Battery BRAMMO Lithium-Ion Battery BRAMMO Lithium-Ion Battery
Battery Pack Capacity: 8kWh
Battery Pack Voltage: 88.8V Recharge Time: Level 2 = 1.5 hours 110v = approx 10 hours
I think it is 1.5 hours per 110v for a total of 10 hours for a complete charge.
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I read that as -- if you have Level 2 charger, then the 8.0 will charge in 1.5 hours. If all you have is 110v wall socket, then the 8.0 will charge in 10 hours. Given that the Enertia has a bit over a 3.1 kWh battery pack and it takes almost 4 hours to recharge a depleted battery, that sounds about right to me.
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Brammofan, Phanton,
I read it like Brammofan ie level 2=1.5 hrs. So it's back to my original question. Does this bike really have a 4.3 kw charger?? Shoot the Volt and Leaf are only 3.3 kw. I hope Brammo really does have a 4.3 kw charger but I'm skeptical.
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I think level 2 charging will take 5 hours, as level 2 is twice as good as 110v.
In the unveiling video, Craig takes questions on charging about 4 1/2 minutes in.
Here is the link:
Brammo Empulse Unveiling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ollTu5QQ0#)
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George and all,
Let me (hopefully) clear up some confusion regarding charging on the Empulse. It turns out to be slightly more complex than the story that's made it into the press (this is common as media prefers simple "sound bytes" of information).
The Empulse will feature an on-board Level 1 charger derived largely from the Enertia on-board charger. Final specifications are not yet settled, but you can expect a power delivery to the battery pack of roughly 850-1000W. This is pretty much the maximum that can be pulled from a 110V household 15A circuit leaving enough headroom not to pop the breaker. At this charge rate, it is roughly 1 - 1.25 hours per kWh of battery capacity to charge.
The Empulse will be configured to accept input from a Level 2 off-board charger that would be purchased separately and kept in your garage or other charging location. As Level 2 chargers are far too large (at the moment) to fit onto a motorcycle, this is a necessary compromise. This does also mean that you would NOT be able to charge off Level 2 charging stations that simply provide 220V/30A from the "standard" SAE J1772 charge plug as that voltage and current need to be converted to battery bus voltage and the current regulated. This does mean that you could install a Level 2 charge station for your Empulse in your home with relatively minimal cost. A dryer outlet (220V single phase) and our off-board charger (basically a current regulating power supply) would be all that's required.
Another important point to note is that our goal with the Empulse is to provide enough range that charge time is not nearly the constraint that it is with the current Enertia. If the bike can give you everything you need for a day's use and then some, do you care how long it takes to charge so long as it's ready to go the next morning? Discuss... ;)
I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
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Thanks for the input Brian,
I will have a driving cycle which will require me to get a quick jump at my destination in order to make it home at a reasonable speed, so I am extremely interested in getting a fast charge at my destination which of course implies a fairly high power 220 charging unit. So 2 more questions:
1) What is the power level of the offboard 220 charger and
2) what is the ball park price since I will need 2 of them, 1 for home and one for my destination/turn around point.
PS I don't want to call your charger an L2 charger since that implies a J1772 plug and an ONBOARD charger---that's why I just refer to it as the Empulse 220V offboard charger,
Thx for the input.
Now can you give us any heads up on the start of production??
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Another important point to note is that our goal with the Empulse is to provide enough range that charge time is not nearly the constraint that it is with the current Enertia. If the bike can give you everything you need for a day's use and then some, do you care how long it takes to charge so long as it's ready to go the next morning?
Most of the time, no. The minute it takes to plug in and unplug in the morning is the true time cost of recharging, versus 5-10 minutes spent filling up my commuter bike every 160 miles.
Occasionally I would want to extend the range via recharging during downtime while away from home, which is when charging speed does come into play. Level 1 charging is 8-10 miles of charge per hour, which ranges from quite useful (recharging at work), questionably useful (charging while visiting a friend or eating a meal, watching a movie) to not useful at all (charging at a midpoint of a long trip). Faster charge speeds would help in the questionably useful situations, but only an improvement of orders of magnitude would be useful for long trips in an EV.
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George,
Good points and great questions. I just double checked the specifications listed on the Empulse page and realized that the "Level 2" charge time is not correct. It is being updated as we speak. I also concur that Level 2 charging should be called something else to avoid future confusion. There will definitely not be a J1772 plug on the bike.
The maximum power that we would expect to see from an appropriate off-board charger would be about 2.5kW as the charge voltage will be just north of 100VDC and the charger would likely output around 25A. This would equate to 220V charge times of (roughly):
Empulse 6.0 = 2.4 hours
Empulse 8.0 = 3.2 hours
Empulse 10.0 = 4.0 hours
Great thing we have such dilligent, fact checking Empulse enthusiasts! I apologize for the confusion as it was mostly my error in communicating specifications to the marketing team. As I get more firm information on the off-board charger, I will be certain to update the members of this forum. I cannot provide a cost estimate at this moment, unfortunately.
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Thx for the input,
Just as a suggestion, maybe you guys could add a high performance charger to the accessory line and charge($) accordingly. The charger you are suggesting will add miles at a rate of about 0.5 miles/ minute. Three times that rate would be great--then we could put it on a 30 amp circuit and #10 wire (roughly).
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Maybe this adapter would fit in a backpack :-)
http://www.tucsonev.com/ (http://www.tucsonev.com/)
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You have to admit, the guy saw an opportunity, and he addressed it.
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Do we know which type of plug will come with the 240V off-board charger? I see there are several different types. For example the dryer outlet in my garage is the 14-50R.
http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm (http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configurations.htm)
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George,
Good points and great questions. I just double checked the specifications listed on the Empulse page and realized that the "Level 2" charge time is not correct. It is being updated as we speak. I also concur that Level 2 charging should be called something else to avoid future confusion. There will definitely not be a J1772 plug on the bike.
The maximum power that we would expect to see from an appropriate off-board charger would be about 2.5kW as the charge voltage will be just north of 100VDC and the charger would likely output around 25A. This would equate to 220V charge times of (roughly):
Empulse 6.0 = 2.4 hours
Empulse 8.0 = 3.2 hours
Empulse 10.0 = 4.0 hours
Great thing we have such dilligent, fact checking Empulse enthusiasts! I apologize for the confusion as it was mostly my error in communicating specifications to the marketing team. As I get more firm information on the off-board charger, I will be certain to update the members of this forum. I cannot provide a cost estimate at this moment, unfortunately.
Rumbling. I'm still hopeful we'll see an update to the 'no J1772' thing : )
Some interesting tidbits:
http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/ (http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/) -- lists only level 1 charge times - possibly level 2 is in flux?
http://www.brammo.com/blogs/general/charge-up-in-less-than-an-hour/ (http://www.brammo.com/blogs/general/charge-up-in-less-than-an-hour/) -- brammo posts about a Siemens CP700A fast AC charger .. capable of 22 kw three phase, or 3.7 kw single phase charging. It'd be somewhat unfortunate if the fastest charge rate the Empulse and Enertia Plus could accept would be a ~1kw 120v/15a charge..
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On the other hand, 1kW would be twice the charger than I have in my GPR-S. For me, I could live with a 120 V charging system, since my house doesn't have 220, as I use natural gas for heat, cooking and drying.
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since my house doesn't have 220
You sure about that? I thought most houses had 220 coming in, but that it gets split into two 110V circuits at the circuit breaker. Just wondering.
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Well, since you put it that way - I don't have a clue what voltage is supplied to my home. However, I did dig up the soil under the breaker box when I put in a foundation drain a couple of years ago to prevent some downstairs flooding and the wires coming into the box looked like they were about the size of Christmas tree lighting wires. Plus, they were direct burial, without even any conduit to protect them. I was very happy that they didn't get cut when the soil was excavated.
One other thing I know is that electricians around here get paid a lot for their work, even more than plumbers! :o
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Does anyone have any information on a residential solar powered charging station? I was looking into a solar power generator from http://www.solarstik.com/swap.php (http://www.solarstik.com/swap.php)
The Nano 100 seems ok and the new Nano 160 can generate 1.5 kwh
I'm interested in this one simply because it would have a dual purpose of charging the bike and would come in handy after a hurricane (b/c I live in S.FL).
My question is would it be enough to charge the Empulse 10.0?
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Does anyone have any information on a residential solar powered charging station? I was looking into a solar power generator from http://www.solarstik.com/swap.php (http://www.solarstik.com/swap.php)
The Nano 100 seems ok and the new Nano 160 can generate 1.5 kwh
I'm interested in this one simply because it would have a dual purpose of charging the bike and would come in handy after a hurricane (b/c I live in S.FL).
My question is would it be enough to charge the Empulse 10.0?
Why not just put some panels up on your roof? You would need a battery or generator backup to keep power flowing from the panels during a grid outage though, so that gets a little tricky.
Want to see what kinda system you need to charge your Empulse? There's and app for that: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php)
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Well I would go all out and get enough panels to power the house but I'm going to need a new roof in the near future and was going to wait until then...
There's also Solar Shingles http://www.dowsolar.com/homeowner/index.htm (http://www.dowsolar.com/homeowner/index.htm) as an alternative to panels. I'm also fortunate in the sense that my villa is facing east/west and I get all day Sun in S.FL. My HOA is really weird about stuff like that though... but we'll see what the future holds as the laws change; I read something about the Feds are putting something in place that will not allow these HOA's to stop such things...
Getting back to the Solar Stik. I'm not sure if that is what I'm going to go with but the idea of having a turn key, all in one, portable, multifunction, military spec/grade equipment that's made in America seems like a good idea... that is if the cost is not out of reach.
Thanks for your link it seems to be helpful so I will keep searching. Maybe someone from Brammo can give their input?
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I know where there are a lot of solar panels.
According to a report in my newspaper's business section today: It has taken a while but Oakland-based BrightSource Energy announced Monday that it has finalized $1.6 billion in loans for its Ivanpah, 392-MW solar power plant to be built in the Mojave desert. The final piece of the puzzle was apparently Google's investment of $168 million in the Ivanpah project. This is Google's largest cleantech investment to date. The largest investor in the project is NRG Solar, a wholly owned subsidiary of NRG Energy. Construction on the plant began in October and is expected to be completed by the end of 2013.
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My favorite wall-shopping site for gridtied solar:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html (http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html)
Costco is now selling complete kits - Grape Solar panels, Enerphase microinverters and mounting racks.
http://www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?cat=90897&eCat=BC (http://www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?cat=90897&eCat=BC)|114|3241|90897
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since my house doesn't have 220
You sure about that? I thought most houses had 220 coming in, but that it gets split into two 110V circuits at the circuit breaker. Just wondering.
They haven't done 110V and 220V in a long time. It is now 120V and 240V. They get split into two 120V circuits that are out of phase so that can be combined to make a 240V circuit.
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Thank you sir. I knew that, but grew up with the 110/220 designation. I'm old.