Brammo Owners Forum
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Mithion on June 17, 2014, 07:34:23 AM
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(http://i2.wp.com/www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Avengers-electric-Harley-Davidson-02.jpg?resize=635%2C473)
(http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/740177.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/05/article-2597713-1CDAE42800000578-284_634x444.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/835/u3x6.jpg)
(http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/740179.jpg)
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/electric-harley-production-bike/25156.html (http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/electric-harley-production-bike/25156.html)
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/electric-harley-davidson-spotted-hollywood-set/#more-65333 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/electric-harley-davidson-spotted-hollywood-set/#more-65333)
http://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-from-avengers-age-of-ultron-set-007694.html (http://www.drivespark.com/two-wheelers/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-from-avengers-age-of-ultron-set-007694.html)
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Dang, that Harley is so awful it did the impossible...it made Scarlett Johansen look bad :)
G
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Lol forget the ugly stunt double(Scarlett Johansson is pregnant or something according to one of the articles)
That bike is gorgeous!!!
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I like it.
Interesting that it is a one-seater. Also, the motor housing (if that's what it is), seems to be on the wrong axis.
BTW - I'm making the same comments on a similar thread over at electricmotorcycleforum.com so please excuse the duplication.
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We will have to wait and see if any more info comes out. If this is indeed a spy photo of an actual production electric Harley than my guess is they won't release any info untill it can coincide with the release if the Avengers movie. Scarlett Johansson would surely make a wonderful advertising model for the bike :0)
If it is just a one off movie bike with a Harley sticker on it than I would still like to know more about it and the company who made it.
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Not sure exactly why I dislike it. Single seat. Necessarily low. Frivolous sweeping metal bits. Single front brake hinting that bike isn't made to go too fast.
But I do hope it is a real bike. More electrics is good.
I keep thinking, after Mugen killed at the TT using Mission Motor parts, that Honda will be next big boy to enter electric bikes...after buying Mission...but Honda is a slow to act company...so who knows.
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Belt drive...it would be quiet, unless Harley added a sound maker to keep with the "loud pipes" motto
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Of all companies, I think most would agree that Harley coming out with a production electric is the most unlikely. They are however making strides into territories some thought they never would have. The earliest example of this was the liquid cooled VROD and now based on that general design the Street models. Who knows what is being discussed in their board meetings, it is all speculation.
What can be guaranteed is that every vehicle company better begin to understand that electric vehicles are the future. There is no question in my opinion that, though it may take quite a while, fully electric vehicles will completely replace ICE vehicles. A company like Harley that has been around for over a hundred years has lasted so long for a reason. Of course an electric bike will turn off many of their hardcore die hard riders but lifelong Harley loyalists like my self and my father (who has been riding Harley's for over 40 years) actually love electric vehicles and we are not the only ones.
If Harley is making an electric it will surely have a certain look and feel that will be all "Harley" even though it is electric. Maybe it is just the shock and surprise of it all that will make people take a step back and say wow, Harley made and electric, let me check this out.
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I want those mirrors. They're like my R1200RT mirrors - look over the handlebars at them, but their line of site goes under my hands/arms for a clear view aft - without sticking out from the ends of the handlebars. From the side view on this bike it looks like they might be slightly different - look under the hands instead of over, but still, the view down there has a lot less shoulder/elbow padding to contend with and the overall width stays compact...
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Totally off topic here, but do you think the rider is male or female?
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Lol that's a good question. That is clearly a wig but also looks loke it could be a helmet under the hair as well. The custume could easily have female anatomy sewn in so the rider resembles Black Widow in far shots. Really not sure
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I think I like it! This bike would be perfect for the wife IF the power was something between the Enertia+ and the Empulse. (IF)A shorter seat height then either bike so her short legs could reach the ground almost flat footed. (IF)A range equal to my Empulse R and a top speed high enough to get out of her own way on the interstate. (IF)Also J1772 L2 charging capabilities...
Of all companies, I think most would agree that Harley coming out with a production electric is the most unlikely. They are however making strides into territories some thought they never would have. The earliest example of this was the liquid cooled VROD and now based on that general design the Street models. Who knows what is being discussed in their board meetings, it is all speculation.
Speculation is what we do best here! It's practically a favorite past time.
Being we speculating, I would speculate that the drivetrain, battery, on board charger, etc. is not Harley. So who supplied it? What's the specs? The new 750 that's coming out this year is roughly 53hp and 40 ft lbs of torque.
2014 Harley-Davidson Street 750 First Ride - MotoUSA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OePbG6z78v0&feature=youtube_gdata_player#)
That sounds good enough for an electric bike.
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They are however making strides into territories some thought they never would have..
Yes, but then you also have to consider the acquisition and abandonment of Buell. :(
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The height would make it a good short person electric ride...components could be sourced from Brammo or Zero
G
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M)
Well well well...HD wasn't the first company I thought would jump on the early bird electric train....
But good for them...
G
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Loving the comments on that.
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That gave me chills, dreams do come true!!!
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wat.
Posted inline (switch https to http on the link)
06.19.14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M#)
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New pic I didn't post-
(http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/061814-harley-davidson-livewire-electric-avengers-sipausa_13362382-f1.jpg)
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The wife made up her mind she wants it! I say wait let's see what it's about she don't care "I want it!" I said well you need to learn how to drive before you learn how to ride ;)
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http://youtu.be/H7u9DTfE14M (http://youtu.be/H7u9DTfE14M)
I don't know how to embed or post a video
wat.
Posted inline (switch https to http on the link)
06.19.14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u9DTfE14M#)
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Apparently Harley is calling it the "Livewire"
These articles have the most info-
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/scoop-electric-harley-davidson-livewire-nearing-production.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/scoop-electric-harley-davidson-livewire-nearing-production.html)
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-trademark/#more-65507 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-trademark/#more-65507)
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From Burton on EMF (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3745.msg22334#msg22334):
http://project.harley-davidson.com (http://project.harley-davidson.com)
Looks like the reveal is scheduled for 8:30 AM eastern time tomorrow.
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The motorcycle.com article speculates that Harley probably didn't make the motor or battery themselves and probably sourced it from Mission Motors, Brammo or Zero. I don't think it is Brammo since Polaris has a big stake in Brammo and Polaris owns Victory who is a direct Harley competitor. I think its most likely, of those choices, Mission Motors, not Mission Motorcycles but their original Mission Motors who directly produce electric drivetrains for other companies.
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It's a nice looking bike.
Does anyone know about the geometry of the bike? Is it set up like a ducati to be more of a named sport bike or is it more of a cruiser?
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No clutch.
I'm guessing Mission parts. If so, they will be on a roll...mugen using them to kill at the TT and now, maybe, Harley...
If Mission parts, and a single speed, will it be high voltage?
G
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For some reason it looks like Zero components. Why? I don't really know... But if they want to keep it within a certain price point (<$20k) I'm thinking Zero S ZF 11.4 specs. Which would probably make a pretty good Harley.
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Spoilers, perhaps.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-photos/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-photos/)
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Spoilers, perhaps.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-photos/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/harley-davidson-livewire-photos/)
That's some good pics but I didn't notice any place to plug in. To only charge on a 110 would be a deal breaker. A L2 with a min. 3kw on board charger is a must!
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It grows on you...still would want 2 seats. Looks like a good "small person" bike. Probably heavy, but lower cog will help.
As for looking zeroesque...black with red tire accents and a big ass belt...but I don't think this is done with zero. I still lean mission motors parts.
I wonder if Brammo will release a cruiser...or Victory?
It loses the shifty...but I'm thinking few electrics will be shifty in the future. All the high speed race bikes (RR, Mission, Lightning, Mugen etc) are single speed. Less complexity, less mess, less weight...and not really needed with all the torque a high voltage electric motor can give.
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(http://i2.wp.com/www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Harley-Davidson-Livewire-electric-motorcycle-04.jpg?resize=635%2C453)
That's some good pics but I didn't notice any place to plug in.
If you look at the pic just above the footrest/brake pedal, there is a round piece that I believe is big enough to hide a L2 plug connector.
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Found this online a few minutes ago. Link here...http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html)
HARLEY- DAVIDSON LIVEWIRE CONCEPT
• Price: N/A
• Powertrain: 3-phase AC induction electric motor, lithium-ion batteries, direct drive
• Horsepower: 74 @ 8,000 rpm
• Torque: 52 lb.-ft.
• Top speed: 92 mph
• Range: About 53 miles
• Recharge time: 3 1/2 hours
• Charge port: 220-volt
• Wheels: 17-inch rear (180mm), 18-inch front (120mm)
• Lights: LED
• Suspension: Monoshock rear, adjustable front fork
• Frame weight: 18 pounds
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74 hp...should have higher speed than 92 mph...regulated?
8000 rpm is high....
Range sucks...I thought the center battery seemed "narrow"...
Still, a nice city cruiser for short people.
G
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Found this online a few minutes ago. Link here...http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html)
Well from my experience reading Susan Carpenter articles is she doesn't always have the facts straight. So I'm gonna wait for official specs from H-D.
The range could be hwy miles, the charge time at a L2 could mean around 10kWh battery capacity, and it seems that most electric drivetrains have more torque then bhp. Which I'm sure is by design and one good reason for going electric vs. gas.
Of course we love to speculate ;)
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Found this online a few minutes ago. Link here...http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harley-622608-electric-livewire.html)
Well from my experience reading Susan Carpenter articles is she doesn't always have the facts straight. So I'm gonna wait for official specs from H-D.
The range could be hwy miles, the charge time at a L2 could mean around 10kWh battery capacity, and it seems that most electric drivetrains have more torque then bhp. Which I'm sure is by design and one good reason for going electric vs. gas.
Of course we love to speculate ;)
Article is either gone now or behind a paywall.
I remember some of her articles for LATimes about the Empulse. Funny in retrospect. But I assume those came off a press sheet, and it was published early.
Agree, I think 9-10 kWh battery capacity is right.
With a relatively short range, there's no need for huge top speed. This bike probably weighs about 500 pounds (since Harley), but it's geared short enough that it should haul ass. That range sure is disappointing though, even if it's highway. 53 miles highway, 100 miles city? Still, it'd be fine as a commuter bike.
52 ft-lb = 70 Nm. 70 Nm at 8000 RPM is 59 kW, or 79 hp .. so it has only fallen off slightly in torque by the peak power point. Very linear.
Very much in the Empulse / Zero category of bikes, as opposed to say Lightning / Mission / Brutus. I expect it'll be quicker than the Empulse, on par with the Zero SR.
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IMO you don't buy the first generation product ever. Just the fact that Harely is making an electric bike is reason to be excited. Give it a few years and a few iterations and the bike will have the numbers it needs. Beautiful looking machine.
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Apparently this person has tested the bike already-
http://m.pe.com/articles/harley-696434-electric-livewire.html (http://m.pe.com/articles/harley-696434-electric-livewire.html)
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Susan is a girl. A little disappointing that it is concept-only, and that the range is smaller than what either Zero or Brammo is offering. Without riding it, I think most riders will dismiss it on the range alone; hopefully Harley can get enough bikes out there to change people's minds.
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http://project.harley-davidson.com/en_US (http://project.harley-davidson.com/en_US)
Seems like they are doing an experience tour to get feedback before it actually goes to production.
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Cycleworld has tested it as well-
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-first-ride-review-photos-video/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-first-ride-review-photos-video/)
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Cycleworld has tested it as well-
http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-first-ride-review-photos-video/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/19/harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-first-ride-review-photos-video/)
This was the best article so far and the video interview gives some really good insight. If they're looking for feedback I would say that they need slightly more battery capacity. Although I'm sure that at the same time H-D wants to keep the cost down but 53 miles is not enough range. It's either that or reduce the power of the motor. I would love to see the wife on this bike but a 0-60 time in 4 seconds may be too much bike for her. I know that EV's power output in general can be programmed or governed and I would hope that if I was to get this for her that we would be able to that...
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There is a range mode that reduces power, and you could likely fit a smaller rear sprocket to reduce acceleration further.
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Harley is def going to get feedback during this experience tour and I bet we can all guarantee the number 1 thing is going to be range. The bike looks good, 92mph is more than fast enough IMO so range and price will be what people talk about the most. Hopefully the final product, whenever it comes, will be a well rounded package of price, range and performance.
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It looks polished but not quite as sexy and unique as the Empulse. 50 miles range is not bad but with a supposed 14kW battery... that's gotta be way off.
Honestly I have never been a fan of HD, but this looks like a neat bike.
Unfortunately I think price and range are gonna kill this bike... after all, its a Harley, this would never make it up to Sturgis. Looks like they may be marketing this thing to women so they may be limiting their market right off the bat.
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Watch the Cycleworld video, they are not marketing it to any specific group. That video really gives a lot of insight on their way of thinking. People need to give it a chance and that is why they are doing this experience tour and why it is still only a concept. They seem very open to customer opinion. The Empulse is a damn sexy bike but I think the Livewire is a different category, as you would expect form Harley it is a cruiser more than a street bike. Time will tell but I think they will take their time and wait to put out the right product.
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Agree, I think 9-10 kWh battery capacity is right.
52 ft-lb = 70 Nm. 70 Nm at 8000 RPM is 59 kW, or 79 hp .. so it has only fallen off slightly in torque by the peak power point. Very linear.
Very much in the Empulse / Zero category of bikes, as opposed to say Lightning / Mission / Brutus. I expect it'll be quicker than the Empulse, on par with the Zero SR.
Wait a minute, Protomech... has anyone EVER confirmed that a Zero SR achieves their ridiculous 3.3s 0-60mph claim in an independent test? If so, please point me to the article. Let's do our maths again and realize that it would take over 60kW of motor to achieve the rear wheel torque and thus thrust (acceleration) the Empulse and Empulse R achieves with our user selectable final drive ratios (aka "the gearbox"). This is what it appears that HD have done with their 59kW direct drive/bevel gear solution.
All that said, I still applaud HD for taking a step to secure their future customer rather than simply doing the same thing they've always done for the past 50 years. The bike looks very well thought through and with any luck, I'll get a chance to try it when it goes on tour. I think Harley will need to give people SOME indication of price, or they will not get very reliable feedback.
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I don't know of any instrumented tests of the SR ZF11.4. But there is a test of the SR ZF14.2.
Cycleworld tested the SR ZF14.2 bike (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/09/2014-zero-sr-electric-motorcycles-first-ride-review-photos-specifications/), and recorded a 4.3 second 0-60 time (compare to their earlier test (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos/) of a 2013 Empulse R at 4.8 seconds, and a 2013 S ZF11.4 at 5.2 seconds). That's about 10% slower than Zero's claim of 3.9 seconds - so it's possible Zero was mis-representing the production bike's performance, or used a lighter rider than CycleWorld, or the tests were conducted slightly differently. Some 0-60 tests allow a 1 foot of rollout "cheat" .. others start as soon as the vehicle begins movement.
Assuming CycleWorld used a 180 pound rider with gear, and Zero's weight specifications are accurate. The total bike + rider weigh 632 pounds. The SR ZF11.4 bike + rider should weigh 7.1% less, which should reduce 0-60 time with CycleWorld's rider to 4.0 seconds.
Again, that's slower than Zero's claims .. but noticeably quicker than either the 2013 Empulse R or the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 tested by the same publication earlier.
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Here's the paper math:
The difference between 3.3 and 3.9 seconds for Zero's claim when adding the Power Tank is between 0.51 to 0.69 seconds, depending on how much rounding you allow. That's a 15% to 21% increase in elapsed time, which all else equal corresponds to a 15% to 21% increase in total vehicle mass.
Zero claims a 45 pound increase in weight with the Power Tank, which means the total vehicle including rider should weigh between 214 and 300 pounds. Obviously incorrect. The expected difference between the two battery configurations should probably be closer to 7-10% depending on rider weight, or perhaps an increase from 3.6 to 3.9 seconds.
Peak power doesn't matter for a 0-60 test if it arrives after 60 mph; motor torque curve and gearing matter.
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In the news today:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/harley-davidson-introduces-electric-motorcycle-24207699 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/harley-davidson-introduces-electric-motorcycle-24207699)
and
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/harley-davidson-livewire/ (http://www.wired.com/2014/06/harley-davidson-livewire/)
Looks like a limited tour to get rider input, then release next year.
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The Wired articles states that Harley-
"Harley did most of the chassis work—it’s been building bikes since the dawn of internal combustion, so it’s got that down pat—but brought in experts like Mission Motors for help with things like the motor controller."
Looks like we were right if that is true.
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Mission Motors could be a very smart player in the field. They separated from making bikes and just make components. So they could be a supplier to many companies.
They are working with Honda (well Mugen, but....) and now Harley. They could end up making quite a bit of money without having to sell bikes....
I am impressed with the components they are turning out. And again, if Harley is using Mission Motor components, does that make the LiveWire a high voltage motorcycle? I know I want that motor the High Voltage motor that is in the RR :)
G
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There is speculation on another forum that the right-angle gearbox uses a reduction ratio to increase rear wheel torque upon takeoff. That would make sense for a bike that will be used to make a big public splash. Also, the CW video shot of the instrument screen shows a pack voltage of 300V, which I assume will allow the motor to spin fast to obtain a good top speed, while having relatively low gearing. I think H-D and Mission have done everything that they can to boost this bike's performance (at the expense of range) so as to get good performance numbers and provide thrills for the short test rides that they will be providing to the public and to publication test riders. It all makes a lot of marketing sense to me and no one ever said that H-D doesn't know how to market their products.
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There is speculation on another forum that the right-angle gearbox uses a reduction ratio to increase rear wheel torque upon takeoff. That would make sense for a bike that will be used to make a big public splash. Also, the CW video shot of the instrument screen shows a pack voltage of 300V, which I assume will allow the motor to spin fast to obtain a good top speed, while having relatively low gearing. I think H-D and Mission have done everything that they can to boost this bike's performance (at the expense of range) so as to get good performance numbers and provide thrills for the short test rides that they will be providing to the public and to publication test riders. It all makes a lot of marketing sense to me and no one ever said that H-D doesn't know how to market their products.
Wow that is a really interesting way to look at it. I agree and it makes sense. Show off the performance of the bike during this tour so people get excited and you can market the speed and handling etc and all the while maybe some new battery tech emerges or you just wait till the production bike and maybe release two models, one short range/high perfromance and one long range/moderate perfromance. Interesting take
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Are you still guessing about the range? This (german) article says (and doesnt give sources) 240km (1), mentions that being a number quite a bit ahead of the game. That translates to an estimatec 12-14kwh battery pack i think.
Im quite shocked about (the general) news - I first saw the pictures of the HDE on the avengers set and was pretty sure it was just a custom build for the set (I imagine taking a movie with the sound of a fucking HD in the background quite hard on the nerves).
Well, now the first big motorcycle company that claims building a electric streetbike (KTM just experimented with dirtbikes, BMWs thing I would consider more of a scooter) is Harley Davidson. The company best known for 1950s look with 1930s tech at ridiculous prices. I would have betted on hell freezing over anytime.
About the bike: I dont like the chromy underside and the ridiculous long wheelbase. Would choose Brammo anytime :D
But I never had a thing for cruisers (look-wise - I enjoy just driving miles of straight road with air in my face as much as anyone)
(1) http://ecomento.tv/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-tourt-mit-elektromotorrad-durch-usa/ (http://ecomento.tv/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-tourt-mit-elektromotorrad-durch-usa/)
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The range (per HD) is 53 miles. Some articles are citing 130 miles, but it all stems from a Mashable article where the reporter was giving information on electric motorcycles in general, needing to be recharged after about 130 miles.
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Are you still guessing about the range? This (german) article says (and doesnt give sources) 240km (1), mentions that being a number quite a bit ahead of the game. That translates to an estimatec 12-14kwh battery pack i think.
Yes, the 53 miles range is just Harley's estimate in hard riding. The bike is about as heavy as a Zero S with power tank, or an Empulse, and has a battery in the same ballpark .. so expect to see about as much range as those two when used in similar fashions.
I updated my blog with a summary of specifications and tentative stops for the US tour.
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/ (http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/)
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I updated my blog with a summary of specifications and tentative stops for the US tour.
http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/ (http://protomech.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/harley-davidson-project-livewire/)
I encourage everyone to read this. Great job. :D
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Motorcycle.com puts in their two-cents:
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2014/06/19/design/harley-davidson-reveals-project-livewire/?utm_source=mo06192014&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2014/06/19/design/harley-davidson-reveals-project-livewire/?utm_source=mo06192014&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly)
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Question-
So Harley purposely designed the LiveWire to make a specific sound using some kind of longitudinal beveled gear setup right?
Does this have any negative effect on power?
Is anything "lost" through this type of setup, like for example how a car has differnt HP at the crank than it does at the wheels.
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Yes, adding in the 90 degree gearbox will reduce efficiency and throw a little power away.
There may still be some advantages, like better packaging or aesthetics. Harley said they wanted to expose the motor housing, and fitting it longitudinally allowed for a much longer motor than would be able to fit sideways. But they they also have to package the 90 degree gearbox.. wonder if they could incorporate a two-gear arrangement since they're committing to the packaging anyways.
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I wonder if the motor spinning in one direction or the other, which ever it is, produces any gyroscopic effect on the bike? If it does, is it enough to disturb handling, I doubt it.
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Any gyroscopic effect? Probably, but it should be quite small.
For one: the motor's axis of rotation is very close to the ground and the leaning axis the bike pivots around. Not much leverage.
For another: the rotating bits have little mass and it's relatively centralized.
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Lol I thought everyone might like this, found it over on the Cyril Huze blog.
(http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/cyril-Huze.jpg)
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My newspaper published an article written by M. I. Johnson of the AP in the business section today. So now that I see the story in print, I finally believe it. ;) The LiveWire is getting a lot more press than Zero or Brammo ever did.
The article quotes H-D President Matt Levatich as saying: "We think that the trends in both EV technology and customer openness to EV products, both automotive and motorcycles, is only going to increase, and when you think about sustainability and environmental trends, we just see that being an increasing part of the lifestyle and the requirements of riders. So nobody can predict right now how big that industry will be or how significant it will be."
Naturally the article picked up on someone's statement somewhere that the bike will go 130 miles on a single charge and only take 30 to 60 minutes to fully recharge. Oh well, it is hard to always check facts when you are in a hurry to meet a deadline. ::)
Zero did get a mention as being the first full-size electric motorcycle to enter production in 2010 (no mention of the Electric Motorsport GPR-S, which was introduced in 2009 or the Brammo Enertia that was introduced less than a year later, both of which were at least as "full sized" as the first Zero). Zero's vice president of Global Marketing, Scot Harden, was quoted as saying that Zero "expects" to sell 2,400 bikes this year. The article says that is "about half of the global market sales for full-size, high-powered electric motorcycles".
The article quotes EV experts as predicting that if H-D gets into the production EV market it will be good for all electric motorcycle manufacturers as doing so will create greater awareness of and demand for electric bikes. The term "a rising tide raises all boats" was mentioned.
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There is no denying anymore that electric vehicles are the immediate future. ICE vehicles will remain with us for many many years to come but I picture within the next 10-15 years we will see so many EV's on the road, both cars and motorcycles, along with electric bicycles and scooters. I have never personally seen an Enertia, Empulse, Zero or any other electric motorcycle on the road but I see plenty of Tesla's. It's a fact, EV's are the future standard and those who refuse to believe it and accept it will simply just have to deal with it. Tesla, Harley, Brammo, Zero, Rimac etc the more companies that make EV's the mkr people learn about them and begin to realize how freaking awesome they are.
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I don't know of any instrumented tests of the SR ZF11.4. But there is a test of the SR ZF14.2.
Cycleworld tested the SR ZF14.2 bike (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/09/2014-zero-sr-electric-motorcycles-first-ride-review-photos-specifications/), and recorded a 4.3 second 0-60 time (compare to their earlier test (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos/) of a 2013 Empulse R at 4.8 seconds, and a 2013 S ZF11.4 at 5.2 seconds). That's about 10% slower than Zero's claim of 3.9 seconds - so it's possible Zero was mis-representing the production bike's performance, or used a lighter rider than CycleWorld, or the tests were conducted slightly differently. Some 0-60 tests allow a 1 foot of rollout "cheat" .. others start as soon as the vehicle begins movement.
Assuming CycleWorld used a 180 pound rider with gear, and Zero's weight specifications are accurate. The total bike + rider weigh 632 pounds. The SR ZF11.4 bike + rider should weigh 7.1% less, which should reduce 0-60 time with CycleWorld's rider to 4.0 seconds.
Again, that's slower than Zero's claims .. but noticeably quicker than either the 2013 Empulse R or the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 tested by the same publication earlier.
***
Here's the paper math:
The difference between 3.3 and 3.9 seconds for Zero's claim when adding the Power Tank is between 0.51 to 0.69 seconds, depending on how much rounding you allow. That's a 15% to 21% increase in elapsed time, which all else equal corresponds to a 15% to 21% increase in total vehicle mass.
Zero claims a 45 pound increase in weight with the Power Tank, which means the total vehicle including rider should weigh between 214 and 300 pounds. Obviously incorrect. The expected difference between the two battery configurations should probably be closer to 7-10% depending on rider weight, or perhaps an increase from 3.6 to 3.9 seconds.
Peak power doesn't matter for a 0-60 test if it arrives after 60 mph; motor torque curve and gearing matter.
Right... so no then. I appreciate your calculations and your attempt to draw conclusions from snippets of data, but all we really need is for someone to instrument the Zero SR and record the ACTUAL 0-60mph time. Yes - The 2013 Empulse R out accelerated the 2013 Zero S. Not much of a surprise.
Back on subject - here are a few observations I have made on the Harley:
1. It's quite petite. Look how appropriately sized it is for Scarlett Johansson's stunt double and how small it appears with a full-sized male rider. One article I read mentioned that it felt 7/8ths scale. I would guess that this was done intentionally to attempt to appeal to more female customers, who Harley have been courting hard over the past several years.
2. It's a high voltage system (300+ Vdc) with a pretty small battery capacity (around 7.8kWh). At 59kW, that's a nearly 8C discharge rate, which is going to create some heating in the battery as well as dramatically limit the range at higher speeds.
3. This is a good example of the "other approach" from Brammo and Zero. They are using a small battery pack most likely to offset the high cost of their power electronics - i.e.. IGBT based motor controller from Mission. I think they'll get a lot of feedback like this: "I love the power and performance, but I just wish it could go farther."
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Hey guys! been forever since I've been on here.
To comment on Brian's post, as Jay Leno points out almost every time he talks about his old Baker electric, women became the main customers of electric cars because of the easy of maintenance and operation. And if I am not wrong, I think it was A&R that suggested H-D was thinking of an electric bike as more of an entry level/women's bike when he first reported on H-D's elmoto development program. This seems to be a sector Harley has struggled with. They saddled Buell with that poor little Blast, and that didn't turn out so well. Their new 500 and 750 should be popular though.
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Great article over on Asphalt and Rubber-
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/harley-davidson-livewire-change-op-ed/#more-65613 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/harley-davidson-livewire-change-op-ed/#more-65613)
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In the above article is this link to an investor video that sheds light on how H-D sees this project:
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-livewire (http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-livewire)
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Thank you for that. Unfortunately I have to wait until I get back on land to watch videos. I've been out here for over 3 weeks now, so I have a lot to catch up on.
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Thank you for that. Unfortunately I have to wait until I get back on land to watch videos. I've been out here for over 3 weeks now, so I have a lot to catch up on.
Are you Navy or other military?
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http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2014/06/22/sound-of-harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-has-been-improved/ (http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2014/06/22/sound-of-harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-has-been-improved/)
It appears this experience tour is already producing results :0)
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1. It's quite petite. Look how appropriately sized it is for Scarlett Johansson's stunt double and how small it appears with a full-sized male rider. One article I read mentioned that it felt 7/8ths scale. I would guess that this was done intentionally to attempt to appeal to more female customers, who Harley have been courting hard over the past several years.
3. This is a good example of the "other approach" from Brammo and Zero. They are using a small battery pack most likely to offset the high cost of their power electronics - i.e.. IGBT based motor controller from Mission. I think they'll get a lot of feedback like this: "I love the power and performance, but I just wish it could go farther."
Good observation! Then the size of the bike would be perfect for the wife. If and when the Livewire Tour comes to S.FL the wife and I are definitely going to check out this bike.
Brian makes another good point about the small battery. If I get this bike for the wife it would need to at least have the same range as my #42R. The other side of this is I can't have the wife with a (0-60) faster bike then mine. So either we have to find a way to tune hers down or tune mine up. I like the idea to tune mine up ;)
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If and when the Livewire Tour comes to S.FL the wife and I are definitely going to check out this bike.
Four posts back is a link to an investor video that shows (@ 1:58) three stops in Fla. Post how the test ride goes as I am in Ohio and will likely be skipped by the Tour.
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Brian makes another good point about the small battery. If I get this bike for the wife it would need to at least have the same range as my #42R. The other side of this is I can't have the wife with a (0-60) faster bike then mine. So either we have to find a way to tune hers down or tune mine up. I like the idea to tune mine up ;)
The couple of times I've been in a Harley dealership, it's been stuffed with bikes in the $20k to $30k range. I don't imagine they will have a problem offering a larger battery if customers are demanding it.
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New video of the LiveWire-
Harley-Davidson has just released this video showing a group of Livewires - their new electric bike - being ridden through the streets of New York.
Harley claims the bike makes the equivalent of 74bhp and while no official figures have been released, insiders say it has a range of about 100 miles.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/news/newsresults/videos/2014/june/harley-davidson-livewire-in-new-york/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/news/newsresults/videos/2014/june/harley-davidson-livewire-in-new-york/)
http://youtu.be/njFeDS1lQY8 (http://youtu.be/njFeDS1lQY8)
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I heard this story during the financial report on my radio this morning. The reporter said that the bike had a maximum range of 53 miles, which sounds more like it, considering the limited room in the relatively small chassis for a battery pack.
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I'm sure they're quoting highway range as 53 miles and max range is 100 miles. We all know the difference but I doubt the reporters do. They're grabbing for whatever info they can find.
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Indeed, there has been confusion on the actual range. I've read 53 miles, a mistaken 110 miles and now this is the first unconfirmed statement of "around 100 miles".
The truth will come out eventually.
Could be that there are "modes" on the bike for performance -53 miles and range- around 100 miles
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CBS News Video claims the range is 53 miles.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/test-drive-harley-davidsons-livewire-electric-motorcycles/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/test-drive-harley-davidsons-livewire-electric-motorcycles/)
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As an exercise in curious masochism, I waded (skimmed) through all 33 pages of discussion on a Harley forum:
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/976325-electric-harley-mega-thread.html (http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/976325-electric-harley-mega-thread.html)
True to the stereotype, most comments were negative (The announcement of Project Livewire signals the beginning of the apocalypse), but there was a significant number of posts that expressed openness to the idea and even enthusiasm of looking forward to testing one.
A number of "I-would-never-ride-one" posters also expressed appreciation of the Motor Company's business sense in floating this bike.
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I think negative reactions were guaranteed and expected. Harley had to know they would be essentially "pissing off" their hardcore old school biker. I think Harley also knows that there are many people out there, like my self, who are young(I'm only 31) and like both the mystique and image of the Harley lifestyle but have also grown up in a technology age and are open to something like an electric motorcycle. If they produce this bike it will not break any kind of sales records but it will set a foundation and a long term plan for electric bikes slowly taking over.
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Could be that there are "modes" on the bike for performance -53 miles and range- around 100 miles
That is partly correct. There are switchable performance modes and the estimated range remaining will update based upon the mode selected.
However, the actual range will likely depend mostly on how hard you accelerate and how fast you ride. I would expect "range" mode to deliver just as much range as "performance" mode at the same constant speed.
(Apologies if this is what you meant, just wanted to make sure everyone is clear)
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However, the actual range will likely depend mostly on how hard you accelerate and how fast you ride. I would expect "range" mode to deliver just as much range as "performance" mode at the same constant speed.
And just to bring this around to the Empulse world, while same constant speed in both modes does use the same amount of juice, I find that "Sport" mode gives me better range (given similar throttle use when accelerating), because the regen is so much more aggressive.
This is especially true in my case of going down the steep hills of San Francisco where Sport mode and a 42 tooth rear sprocket will generally hold the bike to 15 - 20 mph without using the brakes.
Of course, if I "get on it" in Sport mode, the bike will serve up 25% more torque than Normal mode, with a definite corresponding hit to the range.
All similarities to Harley's bike (both the project bike and the final production version, if any) are purely coincidental!
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Could be that there are "modes" on the bike for performance -53 miles and range- around 100 miles
That is partly correct. There are switchable performance modes and the estimated range remaining will update based upon the mode selected.
However, the actual range will likely depend mostly on how hard you accelerate and how fast you ride. I would expect "range" mode to deliver just as much range as "performance" mode at the same constant speed.
(Apologies if this is what you meant, just wanted to make sure everyone is clear)
That's interesting, I've never thought of it or realized it that way. I've always just thought that putting the bike say into an "economy" or "range" mode would literally limit how fast you could ride the bike so it saved energy no matter what you do. I was under the impression that a mode like that was some kind of software deal where the system will only put out a specific amount of power to ensure "economy" or oppositely "performance"
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I would like to add that I have seen it reported in more than one place that the pack size and range was specifically targeted for the test rides, and not representing what the production bikes may come with. So it sounds like a limiting of risk for HD to me. And for me makes talk about range a bit of a moot point, as they only gave them enough to be able to be properly test ridden.
But, that's just me. Go on with yo' bad selves. ;)
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My Zero seems to have slightly better range when in "Sport" mode than when in "Eco" mode, which I attribute to Eco mode having more regen drag than Sport mode, thereby slowing too rapidly and making me turn the throttle back on to keep moving at my desired speed when coasting down a moderate grade or to a stop. This weekend I modified my "Custom" mode to provide no regen on closed throttle and maximum regen when the brake was applied. I then did my best to duplicate my typical ride to my daughter's home and arrived there using 2% less power than usual.
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So does coasting create any regen? Like just going down a hill with momentum, no throttle or brake?
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I would like to add that I have seen it reported in more than one place that the pack size and range was specifically targeted for the test rides, and not representing what the production bikes may come with. So it sounds like a limiting of risk for HD to me. And for me makes talk about range a bit of a moot point, as they only gave them enough to be able to be properly test ridden.
But, that's just me. Go on with yo' bad selves. ;)
That was my thought as well. It'd be awfully expensive to custom-design a frame and build a couple dozen battery packs in a non-production configuration, but nothing about this or a two year world-wide tour is inexpensive. I would guess that a 2016 release will probably be using different batteries anyways.
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So does coasting create any regen? Like just going down a hill with momentum, no throttle or brake?
Coasting creates no regen power as I currently have it dialed down to 0% in custom mode. But by switching to sport or eco modes, I can reintroduce regen braking and power production at two different levels. This can be done on the fly by shutting the throttle and switching to different modes with the switch that is located where the electric start switch is on an IC motorcycle. If I am riding down a steep hill, I can switch to eco mode and obtain maximum regeneration motor braking at the rear wheel
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If I were to come to your house in my brand new Lamborghini to show it off you'd want to see how fast it goes, how it handles, what it sounds like when I blip the throttle and how much attention it brings, most likely you wouldn't be like - "So, what's the gas mileage like?"
Harley made a small fleet of test ride bikes that will show off speed, handling, sound and looks. No one on this experience tour is going to take the bike on a ride for a full range run so right now Harley does not care what the range is. Hopefully they get enough positive feedback and decide to produce it with a range that makes sense, I'd imagine they would. I can't see a big company like Harley making a bike with only 53 miles of range, it just doesn't make sense.
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If I were to come to your house in my brand new Lamborghini to show it off you'd want to see how fast it goes, how it handles, what it sounds like when I blip the throttle and how much attention it brings, most likely you wouldn't be like - "So, what's the gas mileage like?"
In that example I wouldn't be a potential customer and you wouldn't be playing the role of a market researcher.
The tour they are doing is market research to potential buyers. Rather different conversations will occur...
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If I were to come to your house in my brand new Lamborghini to show it off you'd want to see how fast it goes, how it handles, what it sounds like when I blip the throttle and how much attention it brings, most likely you wouldn't be like - "So, what's the gas mileage like?"
In that example I wouldn't be a potential customer and you wouldn't be playing the role of a market researcher.
The tour they are doing is market research to potential buyers. Rather different conversations will occur...
I fully understand what you mean, I was just trying to say that Harley is not concerned with range on their demonstration bikes.
My example is the same if say you were a customer who came to my Lamborghini dealership, after the test ride I bet you wouldn't be asking about gas mileage lol.
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http://rideapart.com/2014/06/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-built/ (http://rideapart.com/2014/06/harley-davidson-electric-motorcycle-built/)
Another source saying 53
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All of those sources are circle-jerking each other. 53 miles is an accurate assessment of range, as is 100, or 30 .. because there are conditions where you can operate the bike in to achieve any of those ranges.
I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)
Until we see test conditions specified along with a range, I will assume it gets about the same range as a Zero S ZF8.5 .. i.e. 100+ city 53 at 70 mph.
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http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2014/June/Harley-Davdison-Livewire-First-Test/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2014/June/Harley-Davdison-Livewire-First-Test/)
So tomorrow we will hopefully get some real info!
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http://www.hotbikeweb.com/bikes/first-ride-harley-davidson-project-livewire?src=soc&dom=fb (http://www.hotbikeweb.com/bikes/first-ride-harley-davidson-project-livewire?src=soc&dom=fb)
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I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)
Oh like you can't see Brian and his army of engineers completely geeking out on the thing as soon as news hit. ;)
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No doubt.. that's just an awfully specific number.
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I can't see a big company like Harley making a bike with only 53 miles of range, it just doesn't make sense.
Shooot. Do you have any idea how many bars you can hit in 53 miles. ;)
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No doubt.. that's just an awfully specific number.
I'd say they're getting good at their jobs, or being distracted from them as the case may be. :D
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I'm curious where BrammoBrian got his 7.8 kWh pack size specification from, but I assume he has his sources : ) (perhaps 311V 25Ah .. maybe they're using the same farasis cells as Brammo / Zero)
*Brian's personal speculation*
In one of the videos, you can see the display showing battery voltage, SOC, and range estimate.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/wisdesign/harley_display_zps16bb79df.jpg)
It's also been made clear that Harley have worked with Mission on the bike, and most likely will have sourced the battery from them as well. Mission lists their module specification on their website. What seems to make sense knowing what I do about the Mission R is that they constructed a pack from 4 of their EV modules in series = 96S 1P = 350Vdc (nominal) / 20Ah = 7.0kWh. The 350Vdc nominal pack would be at about 25% SOC at 300V and 0% at 288Vdc, so that seems to work. That would yield a pack weight of about 130lbs given the specific energy of the Mission battery at 123Wh/kg. Peak power would be scaled from the Mission datasheet to be about 8.5C, or 60kW, which corresponds nicely to the 55-57kW peak power claim by Harley.
Using general driving efficiency numbers of the Empulse, that yields an average driving range of about 45 miles and a maximum (city drive profile) range of 98 miles, which is also pretty darn close to the 53/100 claim.
The pack size is probably small for a number of reasons:
1. They followed a traditional approach on designing the bike where they gave the stylists first crack and then left it to the engineers to fit the "package".
2. A small battery means less cost on the most expensive component, thus it made their internal business case look reasonable.
3. As others have suggested, a small battery would benefit handling and acceleration, which will be rated on the tour more over range.
Another possibility is that it's a 2P battery pack and they've got 14.0 kWh on-board, but I doubt they would claim such low range with such high capacity. Or... they could've sourced the battery somewhere else and I'm way off base... :-\
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300V seems a little low for 96S and 26% SOC .. that's 3.125 volts per cell. My Zero bike reports 0% SOC at pretty close to 3.2 volts per cell. Maybe Harley is just more aggressive about discharging farther.
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http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/24/5837642/riding-project-livewire-harley-davidson-first-electric-motorcycle (http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/24/5837642/riding-project-livewire-harley-davidson-first-electric-motorcycle)
Another review with a video.
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300V seems a little low for 96S and 26% SOC .. that's 3.125 volts per cell. My Zero bike reports 0% SOC at pretty close to 3.2 volts per cell. Maybe Harley is just more aggressive about discharging farther.
I think you're correct. Good catch! I went back and reviewed the Mission motor controller datasheet and remembered it has a peak input voltage of 450 Vdc, which would allow for a higher series string configuration. Still, even maxing it out at 108s would only provide for an 8.0 kWh pack. So... I think the answer is somewhere between 7 and 8kWh.
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Being as knowledgeable as you guys are and BrammoBrian working in the industry, what do you think Harley will charge for the LiveWire based on the specs and tech etc?
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My guess is $17-20k in production quantities of 1000+ (compared to Empulse, for example, it has a more expensive motor controller = more $$$$, smaller battery = probably less $$, LED lighting = more $, reduction right-angle transmission vs multispeed transmission = less $$).
But it's a somewhat moot point. IF Harley goes to production in 2016 with something based on the LiveWire, it will almost certainly use a different battery configuration and support DC charging. I'm sure H-D is surveying would-be customers during the tour regarding the range and price points that would trigger a purchase.
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Great article and insight over on the Cyril Huze blog-
http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2014/06/26/the-livewire-project-harley-davidson-reinventing-itself/ (http://cyrilhuzeblog.com/2014/06/26/the-livewire-project-harley-davidson-reinventing-itself/)
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Here is a short ride review of the LiveWire by Susan Carpenter. I note that she says the bike's range is about 30 miles when in "power" mode and H-D claims the LiveWire weighs 360 pounds. Level 2 charging requires 3.5 hours to fully recharge. Top speed is at least 92mph. Otherwise no more new info: http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/26/harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride-review-video/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/26/harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride-review-video/)
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I'm not sure her weight claim is correct. Virtually every other article lists the weight as 450-460 pounds.
The range continues to puzzle me.
Beyond Brian's guesses in this forum, charge time is listed at about 10 hours on 110V. Assuming 1 kW charger, that means an 8-10 kWh pack. That also fits with the weight, which is similar to the Empulse and likely means a similar-weight pack.
It's possible some drivetrain component - motor, motor controller, right-angle gearset, wide belt drive - is very inefficient. I would be a little surprised at the first two due to Mission Motors' involvement.
It's possible the reported range is under similar sporty riding conditions that show 40-60 miles of range (http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/31/brammo-empulse-r-vs-zero-s-electric-motorcycles-comparison-test-specs-photos/) on an Empulse or ZF11.4 Zero, or 68 miles (http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/09/2014-zero-sr-electric-motorcycles-first-ride-review-photos-specifications/) for the SR w/ Power Tank. Lots of strong acceleration and braking.
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My test ride is scheduled for 3:30. I'll let you all know how it goes.
BTW, my Empulse is plugged into 110V at the Harley museum. :)
Review and pics will be posted later today.
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Nice...I am going when they come to Albuquerque...did they have a tour dates list?,
G
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Just got home, 15 hours after I left this morning. I will write a full review tomorrow, but in a nutshell the Livewire was neat but after riding a production bike with similar specs for a year, I felt a little underwhelmed. A lot of that is I am just used to the Empulse, and didn't really get a chance to learn the differences in throttle mapping. I am still glad Harley is pushing the technology. Off to bed for me for now.
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Did you ride your bike to the event? I plan to take mine...not to challenge, but just because it is my daily ride.
I hope Harley doesn't frown on that...
I imagine Brammo and Zero riders are likely to be among the people testing the Harley as we are the people most interested in electric bikes...
G
I do imagine it has good balance being so small and having the batteries that low...but then the Empulse is pretty sweet at balance too.
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You bet I road my Empulse to the event! It was the longest one-day ride I've done yet. I consumed about 20 kwh of L2 charging, and about 3 kwh of L1 charging at the HD museum. The only issue was my ChargePoint RFID card must be dead because none of the stations were accepting it. Total trip distance was 204 miles per my Garmin. My last leg was 53 miles and I arrived home with 3% remaining. Perfect ;D
On to the LiveWire. It was great to go the Milwaukee event because the Engineers that actually worked on the bike were there. Most of them had mentioned that they had riden an Empulse and were interested in my impressions of their version. They are not going on tour, so the rest of the stops are going to be dealing with partially-trained Marketing monkeys. (In full disclosure: I was a Marketing major.) The focus of the project was to show consumers how good an electric motorcycle could be if battery technology could support the performance, and Harley's opinion is right now it can't. But I suspect they believe battery tech will soon be their definition of ready . Because of this attitude, the bike was designed around being a good demo bike without acknowledging the battery's limitations. This means no on-board charger, and tiny battery. I did pop the plug cover on the display bike to see what it was, and it looks like a MIL-SPEC connection.
It looks like they went with higher end suspension components. They covered everything else, so no seeing the high power electronics. I did try to ask some specific questions and got stonewalled. I asked what kind of cells, and the engineers had no info to give. I asked about Mission Motors, and again, no comment. I did ask specfically about battery overheating at highway speeds and everyone was adamant that it wasn't a problem.
On to the test ride. The reach is a lot longer than the Empulse, but leg position felt about the same. The bike felt heavier despite being 10 pounds lighter, and the steering felt much lighter (too much, IMO). The touchscreen was interesting, but hard to use while moving, and the optional information wasn't partiuclarly useful. I wish I would have noted the odometer before I left, but it's not on the home screen and I didn't discover the odometer until after I started messing with the screen. I got on the bike with about 90% SOC. The two modes offered ~26 and ~53 miles for power and range modes, respectively. I selected power mode for my test ride. There is no option to switch modes once selected without turning the bike off. GoogleMaps' estimate has the ride at 4.3 miles, and I used about 8% of SOC. One of the riders used 12%. I esimate my Empulse would have used 4% or less with the type of riding we were doing.
Riding a direct drive was nice. I didn't miss the transmission lash of my Empulse as much as I thought I would, surprisingly. The throttle tuning was new and I never felt really comfortable with it. Power would come on very slow, but once moving it was constant and predictable. I suspect they would go more agressive with the production version when they don't have to worry as much about people crashing their demos. (Someone did crash in the round-a-bout in my test ride group.) They said no wheelies in the pre-ride briefing, and I asked if it would do one, and they confirmed. I didn't want to be the one to test that aspect...I would bet the Empulse is faster through 1st gear, but the LiveWire would take the lead shortly after. I wish we could have gotten the bikes to highway speed to see the difference there, but no such luck. They have regen mapped to bring the bike to a stop, although it is very predictable.
My favorite part of the bike? The sounds. Somehow the bike has two different notes. While cruising, it sounds much like the Empulse. But accelerating or decelerating produces a hydrolic whir. Aparently that is an unitended consequence of the angle gear. It was pretty cool.
So in conclusion, this engineering exercise has similar performance to an Empulse, but can't charge and can't go more than 25 miles. I think it does a great job in putting electric motorycles in the public's eye, and showing the type of performance that can be expected if someone buys a Brammo or Zero. In my (biased) opinion, the Empulse is much more refined, but Harley put forth a really good effort. When Harley is ready to move electrons, I think they will give Brammo and Zero a run for their money. 8)
I'll do my best to answer any questions the best way an un-paid test rider can. ;) Pics will be posted later today.
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Gotta love iPhone pics!
The charge port:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10449975_10104340672444489_1979890666146519301_n.jpg)
Fully adjustable forks:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10446637_10104340672574229_8076764140490864057_n.jpg)
Looks like a reduction gear?
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10435136_10104340672728919_8763797159613348376_n.jpg)
Here's my dash as I got home:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10487195_10104340672873629_3295561883055063201_n.jpg)
And me on the Livewire. Yes, I brought tennis shoes since I figured I'd be walking around a lot while my bike was charging. Great decision, too.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10517308_10104340673083209_463959006264754350_o.jpg)
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Thanks for the great review and pics!
Don't you think they will have to modify the design to make room for more batteries in the production version?
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Yes .. part of why I'm surprised they went with such a small battery. The entire LiveWire project smells like $$$$$$.
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Thanks for the great review and pics!
Don't you think they will have to modify the design to make room for more batteries in the production version?
I think they won't be making a production version until battery technology improves enough to give them some minimum range number in a package they think will sell.
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I'm curious what makes the bike so heavy @ 460 lbs. I suspect the battery is much smaller than speculated here given the range.. perhaps as little as 5 kWh or less.
Consider:
Zero S 12.5 kWh = 444 lbs
Brammo Empulse 9.3 kWh = 460 lbs
H-D LiveWire Concept 5? 8? kWh = 460 lbs
Mission R 12 kWh = 490 lbs
Definitely seems like other bikes offer significantly more battery capacity for a given weight. Keep in mind too that the H-D concept does not have an onboard charger (reportedly)..
Is it the motor? The reduction gearing? The housing? Is H-D using cells with high power and low energy density?
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I read one report that said the bike weighed 360 pounds. That would sound more reasonable, considering the small battery pack and lack of an on-board charger. Perhaps we are just dealing with typos and misinformation that is being circulated around the internet without being vetted?
Either that or there is really a Iron-Barrel Sportster engine under all of that plastic. :o
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I read one report that said the bike weighed 360 pounds. That would sound more reasonable, considering the small battery pack and lack of an on-board charger. Perhaps we are just dealing with typos and misinformation that is being circulated around the internet without being vetted?
Either that or there is really a Iron-Barrel Sportster engine under all of that plastic. :o
Yes, Susan Carpenter claimed 360 pound weight (estimated) in her Autoblog article (http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/26/harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride-review-video/).
Because the LiveWire is a concept, not a production bike, Harley isn't providing complete specs for the bike nor giving members of the media full-length test rides. However, the company has let slip that the bike weighs around 360 pounds, less than half the gorilla-ish 800 pounds of a typical Harley. It takes about 3.5 hours to achieve a full battery using the company's Level 2 charger.
However, Sopfu's observations point to the 460 pound weight:
The bike felt heavier despite being 10 pounds lighter [than the Empulse], and the steering felt much lighter (too much, IMO).
Given that every other media report I have seen other media reports mention the heavier weight figure, and multiple comparisons between people that have ridden the Zero SR (4.3 seconds 0-60 per cycleworld in 50 kW 450 pound ZF14.2 trim) and the LiveWire (92 mph top speed = geared for acceleration, "less than 4 seconds" or "around 4 seconds" 0-60 with 55 kW) point to the heavier weight as well.
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Well, that sure seems kind of heavy to me. ???