Brammo Owners Forum

Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Kelly Olsen on August 21, 2010, 08:53:36 PM

Title: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on August 21, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
There have been a couple of brief posts in the other Empluse threads about this subject but they were in threads that were about other issues as well or veered off into other topics.

So I thought I'm make one that was dedicated to this single issue.

I indicated that I wanted an Enertia with the Empluse range and being liquid cooled (instead of the sometimes loud fan) because of my medical need from a neck surgery to be in an upright position and for visibility, both for me to see and to be seen.

Phanton made a comment that there was going to be an option for an upright riding position on the Empulse.

This is great news for me, and if it is the case, I'm ready to place my order for an Empluse 8.0.

I also think that the bike would be more attractive to law enforcement departments if it had the ability to have an upright riding position. Most, not all, but most police departments use motorcycles that have the rider sitting up as opposed to the more Ninja style bikes.

The main reasons are:

Comfort: It's hard to ride hunched over with your head at an unnatural angle for 8 to 10 hours a day.

Safety and control of the bike: An upright riding position makes a bike easier to control at lower speeds in a city environment, and gives the ability to get the riders feet on the ground faster because they stop and start more often than most riders.

Visibility: Being seen and the ability of the rider to see ahead and around easier which is important to a person whose job in a major way relies on observations.

Many of these reasons also apply to me and I think many other riders that want to have a nice cruiser feeling as opposed to racing from one stop light to the next or zooming mountain roads, which I know is a lot of fun.

So, anybody have thoughts on how they might achieve an upright position, how upright are we talking, and any confirmation of this possibility?
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Shane on August 21, 2010, 10:28:33 PM
Hey Kelly,

I responded to your making this point on another thread, but as long as I am here.....

I think the designer(s) of the Empulse made a good decision in releasing the prototype with as race inspiring a setup as possible for two reasons: 1) it keeps the silhouette cleaner, which is great visually, and bikes often sell on looks alone (after all, all of us pre-ordering are buying based on a photo, a few specs, and Brammo's reputation, right?).  2) Like it or not, sport-oriented bikes outperform more 'standard' models on the sales floor.  I've seen models come and go that were incredible bikes but lacked consumer appeal because most sales were driven by young men wanting to pose as racers, or mid-life-crisis-feeding guys who need a Harley or equivalent to re-establish a sense of manhood.  So the great bike that does it all but doesn't look the part just doesn't sell.

In truth it would surprise me if Brammo didn't offer it will the lower handlebars.  You run a big risk changing major design elements like that when people have pre-ordered with an expectation of getting what they originally saw in photos.  That might change if enough people ordering listed a desire for a higher bar, but I think that might only lead to the high bar as an option.  Of course, that would work for you.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If Brammo doesn't offer a higher bar option, the aftermarket will.  You can already find bar risers online.  You may also have to swap out the brake line and add an extension to the throttle cabling, but that's what the aftermarket is for: filling a need.

So to answer your question about as to how high an upright riding position can be achieved, the answer is, assuming a throttle cable extension can be easily acquired (the bars and brake cable are standard aftermarket fare these days) you can have any riding position you want.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on August 23, 2010, 03:11:44 PM
Thanks for the explanation. The one part that makes me a bit skeptical that the same seating angle or upright like position can be achieved on Empulse is the distance between the seat and the foot pegs and also the position of the foot pegs and brake.

Looks like the pegs and brake are back farther and even if one were to extend the handle bar to sit up more the bottom half of your body would have to still be in the crouched, legs bent and tucked under you riding position in order to get your feet back far enough to be on the brake and peg.

Unless they have two models of the Empulse, which I don't see them doing, I don't see how the upright position is going to be achieved. At least not a position that is equal to the Enertia.

Even if the mods that you suggest give it somewhat of a more upright position, I also don't see police departments making those mods or using this bike.

But it is early yet and most of this is still speculation so who knows what will happen. I still hope they bring the Empulse battery and liquid cooled motor to to Enertia.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Phantom on August 23, 2010, 04:10:40 PM
It is my understanding that the footpeg placement and handlebar style and height will be optional based on which style you choose. I also read this online or watched a video when it was mentioned. I have been trying to re-confirm my source, but I have not found it yet.

Worst case, it is a third-party modification like Shane had mentioned.

I would also choose an upright position for my Empulse, not for a medical reason, but for comfort and greater road visibility.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Shane on August 23, 2010, 10:15:39 PM
Below is an image of the left side of the Empulse, blown up, and with a circle to indicate the area I am referencing.  There are several aligned holes that clearly indicate the range of adjustablility of the footpegs on the current Empulse model.  It isn't much, but it is adjustable.  On the Empulse, there is no gear change linkage to worry about on the left side, and the brake lever is affixed to a hydraulic cylinder for the brakes, which is mounted on the footpeg assembly and only connects to the bike via a flexible, rubber hose.  So in theory the footpegs could be moved somewhere else, with a longer hose and the right brackets.  Perhaps down by where the kick stand is connected?

(http://fullempulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/BrammoLeft.jpg)

(I think) Most police departments choose bikes by establishing specs and putting it out to bid.  If Brammo was interested, they could submit a bid with mods to accommodate the police's needs.  But the Empulse is to slow and has to limited range to be a pursuit vehicle, and for community policing the Enertia is much better, what with its upright position and all.

Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on August 24, 2010, 12:18:29 AM
It is my understanding that the footpeg placement and handlebar style and height will be optional based on which style you choose. I also read this online or watched a video when it was mentioned. I have been trying to re-confirm my source, but I have not found it yet.

Would be very interested in the source you are trying to recall. I can grasp the handlebar height issue with after market item sand even the potential to place the footpeg in a different place on the left by the buyer, but the footpeg on the right seems to be dictated by the brake pedal and that does not seem like it would be a matter of being able to be moved in any easy way by the operator.

So, if they have different configuration options at time of order, then this is what seems to be the best solution to a more comfortable upright riding position.

The only question is, how do we get confirmation that this is going to be the case? Should not be any secret since the design and a lot of the information is already out there.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: BrammoBrian on September 02, 2010, 12:15:31 AM
Yes, It's looking like the production bike will have a low rise, full width, triple clamp mounted handlebar much like the Enertia's.  The riding position will be more aggressive than that of the Enertia, but not so much so as the model shown in the photos with clip-ons.  We will make the clip-ons an available accessory for those looking for the total cafe racer look!  Look for photos in the coming weeks for a sneak preview of this configuration on the bike...
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on September 02, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
Looking forward to seeing what the new photos show.

Sounds like the Empulse is going to be coming stock in a configuration between upright Enertia and low rise racer. Appears that for those of us that need or want to have the comfortable upright position for riding we're going to have to stick with the Enertia and hope that it gets battery and liquid cooled technology transferred over to it in a new model someday.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: lienly on September 12, 2010, 05:06:32 AM
I prefer Harley style riding position to racing bike style riding position.
hope Brammo can offer both as an option...

Hey Kelly,

I responded to your making this point on another thread, but as long as I am here.....

I think the designer(s) of the Empulse made a good decision in releasing the prototype with as race inspiring a setup as possible for two reasons: 1) it keeps the silhouette cleaner, which is great visually, and bikes often sell on looks alone (after all, all of us pre-ordering are buying based on a photo, a few specs, and Brammo's reputation, right?).  2) Like it or not, sport-oriented bikes outperform more 'standard' models on the sales floor.  I've seen models come and go that were incredible bikes but lacked consumer appeal because most sales were driven by young men wanting to pose as racers, or mid-life-crisis-feeding guys who need a Harley or equivalent to re-establish a sense of manhood.  So the great bike that does it all but doesn't look the part just doesn't sell.

In truth it would surprise me if Brammo didn't offer it will the lower handlebars.  You run a big risk changing major design elements like that when people have pre-ordered with an expectation of getting what they originally saw in photos.  That might change if enough people ordering listed a desire for a higher bar, but I think that might only lead to the high bar as an option.  Of course, that would work for you.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If Brammo doesn't offer a higher bar option, the aftermarket will.  You can already find bar risers online.  You may also have to swap out the brake line and add an extension to the throttle cabling, but that's what the aftermarket is for: filling a need.

So to answer your question about as to how high an upright riding position can be achieved, the answer is, assuming a throttle cable extension can be easily acquired (the bars and brake cable are standard aftermarket fare these days) you can have any riding position you want.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Gavin on September 12, 2010, 11:42:01 AM
Anybody with the Photoshop skillz to shop an empulse with bars similar, but a bit lower, than the enertia?

I still prefer the enertia body and seat position (maybe a bit more bench to have a second rider at times), and I'm hoping for an enertia with a empulse 6.0 pack...but I wouldn't mind an empulse if it had a higher bar and such...

I guess I just prefer to ride like I'm taking a dump vs riding like I'm trying to screw the tank...

:)

Gavin

Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on September 12, 2010, 07:45:55 PM
I guess I just prefer to ride like I'm taking a dump vs riding like I'm trying to screw the tank...

Being a former politician, I'm rarely left at a lack of words, but I must admit you've stumped me with that one.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Gavin on September 12, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
Ha...sorry...

My motorcycle friends who ride "real" bikes tell me that scooter riders sit like they are on the toliet...I replied back that it was better than sports bike riders who look like the are attempting to impregnate their gas tanks...they didn't bug me about my riding style since :)

Of course I also rag on my "real" bike friends as their bikes go away for the winter and I'm still out riding my scooter in snow or ice or single digit temps...wimps :)

 but Having riding options is always good...

Gavin
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on September 14, 2010, 04:55:53 PM
We all have colorful ways of expressing ourselves ;)
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: 1lesscar on December 01, 2010, 01:25:17 AM
Nooooooo. The standard model should be a real sport bike. You can let the customers who want it less sporty change out the bars and anything else with options, if you must. Or Brammo can just make a better performing enertia for these non sport riders.   :'(




There have been a couple of brief posts in the other Empluse threads about this subject but they were in threads that were about other issues as well or veered off into other topics.

So I thought I'm make one that was dedicated to this single issue.

I indicated that I wanted an Enertia with the Empluse range and being liquid cooled (instead of the sometimes loud fan) because of my medical need from a neck surgery to be in an upright position and for visibility, both for me to see and to be seen.

Phanton made a comment that there was going to be an option for an upright riding position on the Empulse.

This is great news for me, and if it is the case, I'm ready to place my order for an Empluse 8.0.

I also think that the bike would be more attractive to law enforcement departments if it had the ability to have an upright riding position. Most, not all, but most police departments use motorcycles that have the rider sitting up as opposed to the more Ninja style bikes.

The main reasons are:

Comfort: It's hard to ride hunched over with your head at an unnatural angle for 8 to 10 hours a day.

Safety and control of the bike: An upright riding position makes a bike easier to control at lower speeds in a city environment, and gives the ability to get the riders feet on the ground faster because they stop and start more often than most riders.

Visibility: Being seen and the ability of the rider to see ahead and around easier which is important to a person whose job in a major way relies on observations.

Many of these reasons also apply to me and I think many other riders that want to have a nice cruiser feeling as opposed to racing from one stop light to the next or zooming mountain roads, which I know is a lot of fun.

So, anybody have thoughts on how they might achieve an upright position, how upright are we talking, and any confirmation of this possibility?

Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Richard230 on December 02, 2010, 12:08:37 PM
My vote is for an upright riding position, but the more options for adjusting the position of the bars and footpegs the better.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: GeorgeS on December 08, 2010, 02:05:35 PM
I wanted to bounce an idea off you guys. It's probably dumb but I'll post it anyway since I'm kinda dumb anyway. If you look at the picture of my ebike you will notice the clip on riser bars. These work in conjunction w/ the reqular bars that they clip onto. I can choose which bars I want to use. When my arms and wrists get tired from using the lower bars, I switch to the high bars. This takes the load off my arms and wrists but it puts the load on my butt. So after a while I switch back to the lower position. Of course the lower position is better for aero drag.

Anyway, what about doing this on the empulse? The lower bars would be clip-ons and the upper bars would be what  comes stock on the bike stock, or maybe a little higher.

I've never seen it done before (probably for good reason hah-hah).

What do you guys think about this??

(http://images2.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp538%3A%3A%3Enu%3D3387%3E%3A55%3E7%3C5%3EWSNRCG%3D3349359477347nu0mrj)
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Gavin on December 08, 2010, 02:20:42 PM
How do you brake from the upper hand position?

I have bars like that (smaller though) on my mountain bike. Great for when climbing and out of the saddle....

But bikes go slower than motorcycles...and I usually use the upper bars when climbing, so the brake isn't needed at the time.

For a motorcycle, going 60 mph or more, or in town going slower but having idiots trying to turn left on me and such, well I sure wouldn't want my hands that far from the brakes.

Gavin
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: HighlanderMWC on December 08, 2010, 03:02:47 PM
You would need a second throttle and brake lever right?
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: GeorgeS on December 08, 2010, 03:41:06 PM

How do you brake from the upper hand position?
Gavin

I don't. I need to move to the lower position. I only use the upper bars if I'm in a situation where I won't need the brakes for a while.

For a motorcycle, going 60 mph or more, or in town going slower but having idiots trying to turn left on me and such, well I sure wouldn't want my hands that far from the brakes.
Gavin

Agreed. This would be for highway use.

You would need a second throttle and brake lever right?

The riser bars work good on the ebike because the bike has a pedal sensor that reads what your pedalling rpm is. It adjusts the electric motor assist based on that--ie the faster you pedal the more assist you have.

That of course would not work on the Empulse. I was thinking a true cruise control (as opposed to a throttle lock) would work as most of my miles will be highway miles. The other way would be to do what Highlander suggested----2 throttles.

So that leads me to ask you guys: Do you know of any aftermarket cruise controls exist?? I would think they would. The more complicated mod would be a "Y" split on the throttle cable or maybe 2 separate cables. soooo: you guys ever heard of that. I have not.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Brammofan on December 08, 2010, 04:40:45 PM
What do you guys think about this??
I think you're very brave.
Note to everyone else but George: Click and drag to see the secret message, below:
What the heck is he thinking?!  Is he insane?
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: HighlanderMWC on December 08, 2010, 07:07:55 PM
If you really want to be able to ride in 2 positions then maybe find a way to have the bar height change. I don't think there's any fundamental difference (at the bars) between ICE and electric, so perhaps see what people have come with for their ICE?

I think the solution for ICE riders seeking 2 riding positions is 2 different bikes.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: GeorgeS on December 08, 2010, 07:35:27 PM
Yeh, you guys are right. One set of bars at the best position is best. but, it is fun to think in variable geometry mode--like an F14 tomcat or the B1B!!
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Phantom on December 08, 2010, 07:51:38 PM
I am glad you came to that conclusion.

I think it is good to think "outside-the-box", but your idea might have been unsafe. I had a ten speed bicycle where I flipped up the handlebars, but the brakes were easily accessible.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: GeorgeS on December 09, 2010, 09:57:07 AM

I think it is good to think "outside-the-box", but your idea might have been unsafe.

What about some bars that go up and down electronically?? That's variable geometry.
Pretty impractical on the Empulse. Maybe on a Goldwing.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Phantom on December 09, 2010, 10:27:54 AM
What about some bars that go up and down electronically??

If you throw enough money at it, it could be done. You might be better off buying two different style bikes to use depending on what kind of ride you want to do.

If you are talking about robotics, it gets very expensive, very fast.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Richard230 on December 09, 2010, 11:00:57 AM
Just a comment or two: I like to think outside the box as much as anyone, but the history of the motorcycle business is that doing something innovative just won't sell - although BMW has had some success with different technologies, such as ABS (which took 20 years to become almost mainstream), different types of front suspension (which didn't sell for Yamaha) and fuel injection (which no one wanted on Kawasakis in 1979). Vincent tried to fully enclose one of their motorcycle models in the early 1950's and no one would touch it. There are all sorts of examples of manufacturers trying different things on motorcycles without much sales success. For whatever reason, most motorcycle (vs most any other vehicle type, including scooters) buyers hate innovation and anything that looks different from what they are used to.

This might not apply to the type of people attracted to the currently limited electric motorcycle market, but when EVs hit the mainstream, manufacturers will have more success selling them the more they look like current IC motorcycle models. At least that is my opinion based upon my 48 year motorcycle buying experience.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: protomech on December 09, 2010, 01:20:39 PM
That of course would not work on the Empulse. I was thinking a true cruise control (as opposed to a throttle lock) would work as most of my miles will be highway miles. The other way would be to do what Highlander suggested----2 throttles.

So that leads me to ask you guys: Do you know of any aftermarket cruise controls exist?? I would think they would. The more complicated mod would be a "Y" split on the throttle cable or maybe 2 separate cables. soooo: you guys ever heard of that. I have not.

Yes, you could add in a second set of throttle / brake controls. That's within the range of a hobbyist type project, certainly -- but obviously something you'd need to take care with.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: GeorgeS on December 10, 2010, 09:23:36 AM
That of course would not work on the Empulse. I was thinking a true cruise control (as opposed to a throttle lock) would work as most of my miles will be highway miles. The other way would be to do what Highlander suggested----2 throttles.

So that leads me to ask you guys: Do you know of any aftermarket cruise controls exist?? I would think they would. The more complicated mod would be a "Y" split on the throttle cable or maybe 2 separate cables. soooo: you guys ever heard of that. I have not.

Yes, you could add in a second set of throttle / brake controls. That's within the range of a hobbyist type project, certainly -- but obviously something you'd need to take care with.

Proto,
I was thinking about this. When I posted the thing about doing a "Y" in the throttle cable I was thinking (DAH) that the bike had a conventional throttle "cable", which of course it does not. It of course has a bunch of wires instead. Just wondering how one would make 2 fly by wire motor controls work in parallel.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: HighlanderMWC on December 10, 2010, 03:03:17 PM
It of course has a bunch of wires instead. Just wondering how one would make 2 fly by wire motor controls work in parallel.

My understanding is that the throttle signals aren't particularly sophisticated and I'd hazard a guess that you could simply splice the wires. If there's an issue you'd likely need either some resistors and worst case some electronics to add to actually switch.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Brammofan on January 21, 2011, 10:43:07 AM
Requests answered:
[smg id=235 width=500]
This fuzzy photo was posted yesterday and shows the Empulse with the upright handlebars.  Hopefully, newer, clearer, and BIGGER pics will be posted soon.  Also, check out the video posted by Brian as well:
http://twitvid.com/XULOK (http://twitvid.com/XULOK)

Clearly, the rider (is that Brian in his new red jacket?) is more upright than the better known videos of this bike. Also note that the bike and rider are extremely fuzzy in the video, as well.  Perhaps this represents a step forward in fur-covered motorcycle technology.  Or a step backward in image capture technology.  Yeah... probably the latter.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Gavin on January 21, 2011, 11:03:20 AM
I think it is a requirement that any video on something called TWITVID would have to be somewhat out of focus...

Higher bars...but are the footpegs still high and agressive in that configuration.

Better riding position for me, but I'm still planning on the Plus.

Gavin
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Richard230 on January 21, 2011, 11:29:15 AM
It is hard to tell about the foot peg position. You really have to sit on a bike to get a good feel for that. However, the bars are looking better and better to me. On an unfaired motorcycle, I have always liked flat bars with about a two inch rise. But again, you never really know until you ride with them for a while. What looks good and feels good on the showroom floor can be a pain after a few hours of riding. The angle of the bars can be as important to comfort as the rise.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: BrammoBrian on January 21, 2011, 12:58:18 PM
Rider shown in furry red jacket is Mechanical Engineering Manager, Aaron Bland.  Amazing what Twitter does to good iPhone 4 photos and videos...
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Brammofan on January 21, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
More info and pictures, here:
http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/all-of-the-sportbike-none-of-the-back-pain-brammo-empulse/ (http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/all-of-the-sportbike-none-of-the-back-pain-brammo-empulse/)

Will post the pictures here in a minute...
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Phantom on January 21, 2011, 02:51:04 PM
Awesome! It is so cool to see Empulse activity. I know we are getting closer to the Empulse release date everyday, but the visuals help with the waiting.

Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Brammofan on January 21, 2011, 03:33:26 PM
Here are the pics:
[smg id=236 width=600]
[smg id=237 width=600]

As mentioned in my post, note also the Icon gear.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Bishop on January 24, 2011, 02:46:58 AM
Love the superbike bars.  Almost identical to what I eventually put on my CB750, and what came on my Street Triple, which has the best position and geometry of any bike I have ever ridden.  Not that bars are a huge deal to change, the more this thing sits like the Triple, the better.  I love to see updates as we near launch.

Pegs still look a bit high, but yeah it's tough to tell.
Title: Re: Upright Riding Position Option For Empulse?
Post by: Kelly Olsen on January 24, 2011, 06:14:59 PM
Great pictures.

The Empulse looks very cool, and I love the extended range over the the bikes, but from where the pegs are on the Empulse, I'm certain that my 6 foot 4 frame will be more comfortable in the full upright position on the Enertia Plus.

But it's cool that there is going to be a choice for all types of riders.