Author Topic: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...  (Read 7474 times)

protomech

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2012, 04:07:17 PM »
The Oregon-based company will produce two versions, the Brammo Empulse and the Brammo Empulse R. Brammo has released new specifications for the R version though it’s not clear what differentiates the two models. The Empulse R will likely be a faired version similar to the Empulse RR TTXGP racebike. More specific differences will come when both versions of the Brammo Empulse are revealed May 8.

That's from motorcycle.com right? They use the 10.2 kWh maximum capacity talking point too : (
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/04/18/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/2012-brammo-empulse-specs-released/

1lesscar should be happy, they switched the Nissin brakes for Brembos ;D

you better be wrong because many people will just buy a car and use a ice moto.

Or maybe not.. I fully expect the R to come in at 18k+, especially if it has a fairing. The fairing might explain the lower highway energy consumption, btw.. instead of a transmission putting the motor in a more efficient operating mode.

Having the Empulse R be the faired option makes a lot of sense now. That may mean that the Empulse is only offered in one 9.3 kWh battery configuration.

The Empulse is a much more capable bike in a lot of ways than the Zero .. but oh man it's going to be expensive.

People that I talk to when riding the Zero want to know three things:

1. How fast does it go? 80-85 mph, but range suffers if you ride it that fast. It's not a bike I use primarily on the highway.
2. What's the range? 55-70 miles in my riding, which is 45-55 mph typically
3. How much does it cost? $14k, which is the bulk of the 10 year ownership costs

The third point is the sticking point for many, many people. We're accustomed to paying a (relatively) small figure up front for our vehicles and then continuing to pay, and pay, and pay to operate them.

I broke out the ownership costs for the vehicles I've owned here. The car I've driven the longest is a mustang, I put 65k miles on it over 4.5 years. Paid $11k for the vehicle, total costs were about $22k ($0.33/mile) .. and I consider it to have been reasonably inexpensive to operate.

I plan to do 100k miles over 10 years on the Zero if the battery holds up .. battery aging will be the primary driver in ownership costs. Paid $14k up front, total costs will be in the $18-20k range. ($0.18-20/mile)

Compared to a used gas bike? 50 mpg @ $4/gal gas is $0.08/mile, tires @ $200/10k miles is $0.02/mile, 10k miles/year and insurance around $300/year is $0.03/mile. Not even counting depreciation (assuming you buy a bike that has aged out most of its depreciation schedule already), that leaves you $0.05-$0.07/mile for wear and tear and parts.
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Brammofan

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Re: Re: Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2012, 04:08:50 PM »
I would wager that we will see people improperly comparing Zero's 63 mile "combined" range against Brammo's 56 mile "pure highway" range.

I guess we should watch for this and do our best to clarify/correct when it happens.  :)
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Gavin

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2012, 04:14:01 PM »
Marchesini, Marzocchi & Brembo will give the Empulse R tremendous street cred (and wheels help efficiency), but none of those components belong on a commuter bike....


The Enertia Classic has those parts....

machone

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2012, 04:22:57 PM »
I like the thought of regenerative braking even though I have no technical knowledge to back it up. It just seems to me that if you're riding a bike with limited range and a slow method of recharge you want to get back everything you can but enlighten me if I'm missing something, like increased weight or something?....protomech?

I think fancy forks and brakes are something everybody wants, even if it makes little difference from a riding point of view, ESPECIALLY when commuting and the admiring colleagues are having a look. How much extra they are worth is something different. We probably wont know until after May 8th.

I must be missing something, but this bike will be great for commuting and lone rides or electric ride outs but it really is not an IC sports bike equivalent, or am I way off the mark? The ride outs I'm used to are hundreds of miles in a few hours at speed limits or (ahem) a little bit over, maximum acceleration out of the turns on the most twisty and cambered roads you can find. This bike won't do that and keep up, except for a very short while.

However, it will commute, sit nicely outside a city cafe on a sunny day and by the sounds of it, take two people a reasonable radius at a reasonable pace. What is amazing about it is that it is electric and can do that. It isn't a IC superbike, nowhere near, and if it is always compared with IC superbikes, except in looks, it will always fail. But IMHO it will be the best electric bike out there, by about 20 miles!

The popular press are bound to make comparisons and I'd love it if somebody could argue an Empulse over a BMW 1000RR on a performance basis but it really won't happen. I won't be trying. It's enough for me that Brammo has, for the first time, created a great looking bike with really useable and fun performance(no offence Enertia users).
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machone

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »
Ok, so we dont know what it looks like yet - it could be ugly, but I doubt that! :)
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protomech

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2012, 05:29:54 PM »
"Really usable and fun performance" is pretty subjective. Enertia doesn't have enough range for me, incl Plus. It may be perfect for someone else, though.

Same thing for performance. The Zero is not fast off the line, but from 30-70 mph it's as fast or faster than a 250cc gas bike (ninja 250) .. I have a good time riding it.

Downsides to regen braking are extra heat generated in the motor and battery pack, limited regen available from the rear wheel and increased risk of locking up the rear tire, and small increase in control complexity. Strong regen for racing requires a front-mounted motor or some way to transfer power from the front wheel to the rear motor. Chip Yates' race bike had a mechanical link between the front wheel and the motor. Extra complexity and extra weight.

For a commuter bike and a small amount of regen, those are entirely acceptable compromises. In a racing vehicle they become substantially more complex / difficult issues.

If you're interested in that sort of thing, take a look at the well-documented race history of the ProEV Electric Imp, an electric-converted Subaru Impreza racecar. First electric car to win in a road race (2007) against its gas counterparts in.. 100+ years.
http://proev.com/RRptPgs/R070004h.htm

They had big problems with motor heat and battery capacity. Regen was a major compromise, extra range vs extra motor heat.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 05:39:36 PM by protomech »
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Richard230

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2012, 05:30:53 PM »
It will be interesting to see how quickly Brammo can manufacture the Empulse and the Empulse R and get them out to their customers. I hope it is not going to take all summer.

That is one thing that surprised me about Zero (considering their previous track record). They got their bikes out to their dealers much more rapidly than I had expected. The production bikes started showing up a couple of months before the original estimated date of delivery mentioned in their 2012 model announcement. Frankly, I didn't expect that.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

implovator

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2012, 10:26:25 PM »
Just gotta say wow. It's been a long, patient wait for the Empulse. I've been riding my ICE for longer commutes a few days a week and it definitely leaves me wanting when I hop back on the Enertia for the short commutes. Enertia definitely rails though. So fun.  ;D

I'm really interested to see how the transmission feels. I've been thinking about it a lot. The Enertia coasts incredibly well, and I was afraid that downshifting the Empulse would feel really awkward...sort of like having the loosest slipper clutch ever. I'm glad they included the regen braking, which I'm equating to simple engine braking based on motor rpms, current gear, and wheel speed. Pure speculation, but I can't imagine that they'd also work rear master cylinder pressure into that control system. Hopefully the (regen) engine braking will feel right. It would be awesome if you can tune it. I'd love to own an electric that feels like a ICE twin.

The R spec's are looking pretty heavy. $18k+ is probably right on. Ouch.  :( Picking the R or non-R is gonna be a tough call for me. I'm guessing if the R has fairings, then it will have clip-ons. I'm more interested in something naked with a standard bar...but if the non-R doesn't have the same suspension parts then I'll have to go with the R. Furthermore if the headtube is as high as the Enertia, then I'll have to go with clip-ons. Is it me, or does the Enertia's bars feel like a pair of ape hangers. :) Alright, that was bit of an exaggeration, but it does feel awfully high for a standard bar.

I wonder if they'll hook me up with something a little more custom. A naked R with a standard bar. We'll call it the Empulse r.

Oh, and kudos for the Level II charging. I'm gonna have to get into work early to beat those Leafs to the Level II stations. That'll get their goat...charging on 120V is liable to give them a little range anxiety for their drive home.   :'(

karlInSanDiego

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2012, 11:36:13 PM »
I hope the $18k figure that's been kicked around hear so often, won't be taken seriously by Brammo.  This would kill the Empulse in the crib.  I think only those unfamiliar with ICE motorcycle pricing could utter $18k without laughing or getting sick.  I cannot rationalize paying that for a bike with tight range.  If it had the range of a Tesla, then we could talk.  Why have folks on here bumped it by $4k when Brammo was clear about the price back when you signed up to buy?

Sorry but to me it's like talking about a $20 cover and a two drink minimum while standing in front of the bouncer at the door, when you know the club's cover is $10.  Bouncered be stupid not to ask for $20.

karlInSanDiego

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2012, 11:37:44 PM »
http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/

Brammo updated Epulse page now.

protomech

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2012, 12:19:57 AM »
Brammo was clear about the Enertia Plus price at $9k. $2k bump with little material change in the bike save for the batteries.

The Empulse has evolved in more significant ways since. The battery capacity is a bit lower (9.3 kWh down from 10), but the Empulse now has regen braking, an onboard 3kw charger and J1772 inlet, integrated electric transmission. I seem to recall the batteries on the Empulse concept were not liquid cooled.

I think even at $18k the Empulse is competitive with the Zero S. Granted, they're different types of bikes.. but the Empulse is significantly faster and has significantly more highway range. The onboard J1772 charger is awesome, full stop.

I'd love to see the Empulse at $14k with the shipping specifications. I think we will see the Empulse or a very similar bike in that pricerange within a year or two. But I don't think it will happen.. the simplest reason being that Brammo would never sell a single Enertia Plus if they released the Empulse at $14k : p
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protomech

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2012, 12:20:40 AM »
implovator, some of us are less patient than others : )

Since they're doing assembly work in Oregon, they may well accommodate special requests. You may pay more for the custom work, of course..
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EmpulseRider

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2012, 12:22:31 AM »
$18k sounds a bit steep to me as well... I truly hope Brammo isnt entertaining such high figures. The regular Empulse should be priced to compete with upper mid range conventional bikes.

Remember this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/09/business/la-fi-brammo-empulse-ims-20111207
"We're getting to an electric motorcycle without excuses,"

Sky high price would be a pretty big excuse...

I cant imagine they would tell their Empulse 6.0 pre-order customers, who planed on paying $9995, that they would have to pony up an extra 8 grand to buy in... Brammo would really disappoint a lot of people that way. 16k sounds like a reasonable price for the R. The regular Empulse should be in Ducati Monster price range like Craig Bramscher had mentioned in another interview.

Bottom line, the Empulse will need to be affordable to be successful. If they can hit the 14k price target with the regular Empulse, I think most people will be satisfied.

ttxgpfan

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2012, 01:32:12 AM »
This is the rabbit hole I went down when thinking about the new specs.

"Ok, so 54 hp with 46ft-lb of torque is none too shabby.  That’s a bit more claimed hp than my ’86 VF500F Interceptor had, splits the torque curve I had in my ’91 VFR750F down the middle (after being tuned it started with 42ft-lb at 3k rpm, and peaked at 50ft-lb).  So basically the hp of my antique 500cc V4, with the torque of my soon to be antique 750cc V4.  Weight is at 440lbs claimed, which is 15 more claimed lbs than my 500, but 60lbs less than what I measured my VFR at after I tried to lighten it a bit.

So, that helps me get an idea of what it will feel like (basically my VFR capped to 8200 rpm, or much like the Buell XB-9R I test rode once).  Lets compare it to a 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 650R (what happened to Suzuki’s SV650?) and 2011 CBR600RR on paper (please allow me some creative license here).

Kawasaki Ninja 650R (there’s a new one for 2012, but Motorcycle USA only have a first ride with no dyno numbers):

61.7hp and 41.4 ft-lb of torque measured on a dyno.  The dyno chart shows a torque curve that (trying to read the chart) looks like at about 24ft-lbs and just passes 41ft-lb, and then settles back down to about the 24 mark.  Frankly, both my old V4s had a flatter torque curves.  Must be a V thing.  HP peaks out at 8,800 rpm on the way to the almost 11,000 rpm redline.  The Empluse is said to peak out at 8200, so things are very similar, accept the whole flat electric torque curve thing.  The Empulse is going to launch hard compared to the Ninja, and just straight pull harder everywhere, with out needing to be rev’d.  But other wise the numbers are pretty even.  Even the curb weight is similar with the article listing 447lbs for the Ninja.  Of course, you can coax 200 miles out of the Ninja for 40 mpg, versus 121 miles and over 400mpg for the Empulse.  The price of the Ninja 650 in 2009 was $6799.  But a 2012 version will cost you $7400.  The suspension and overall build of the Brammo should be much nicer, helping to justify the price tag (which has yet to be announced).

Honda CBR600RR

100hp and 44ft-lb of torque measured on the MotorcycleUSA dyno.  But, as with the Ninja, torque starts at an apparent 24 ft-lb at just over 2000 rpm.  But you don’t get the full 44 until 11,300 rpm!  And peak hp comes in at 12,700 rpm on the way to the redline that is somewhere past 15,000.  With a curb weight of 411lbs the CBR is significantly lighter, but I still don’t see it being able to pass an Empulse until it simply out revs it.  And even then, with a constant 46ft-lb coming from the steam room it’s gonna be a handful to get around.  Especially if the suspension components turn out to be superior to the CBR’s.  Make no mistake, if the CBR gets out in the open, it’ll probably be gone.  And, in a magazine comparison an older CBR made short work of a Buell XB-9R in a tight course that should have been the Buell’s territory. A 2012 CBR600RR start at $11, 540.  The Empulse 10.0 prototype was supposed to cost $14,000.  That would make it the same price as a basic Ducati 848 EVO (140hp, 72ft-lb).

Basically the gas bikes have more hp, but both really only do it by out reving the Brammo (by the looks of the chart 8200rpm will get you at or just under 60hp out of the CBR).  However, the Brammo has just a bit more torque than the two gas bikes, but has it all the time where it’s just a peak number for the dino burners.  Fortunately the comparison is a bit more reasonable to make because of the fact the Empulse comes with a 6 speed transmission.  Gear ratios will come into play, and I think you can be quite certain Brammo has done their home work in that department, and you will have the right gears to get the job done.

Just by looking at the numbers, graphs, and claimed say-so, it looks like the Empulse could be an ICE slayer in the hands of the right squid in the canyons of California.  But, on all but the tightest tracks it still needs twice the hp to keep up with the CBR.  I suspect bet the Ninja will not be so lucky."

machone

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Re: 2012 Production Empulse specs are...
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2012, 04:03:44 AM »
Thanks for the link protomech, very interesting! So switch off the braking on snow and ice, then!

I have been looking for technical specs for comparisons and performance estimation. What I have learned, from protomech and ted dillard and others is that comparison on specification and not performance doesn't make much sense. I have yet to find a site that does real world 0-60 or 1/4mile comparisons of EV and IC bikes currently available. Performance/dyno figures do not seem to be widely available as yet.

On paper, the Empulse, with its possible 3-4 sec 0-60 time and 100mph+ figures would be comparable with mid range sports bikes like the Honda CB600F or Yamaha XJ6 diversion. It has similar kerb weights and on the face of it, similar power and torque. I chose these bikes because they are also similar in looks and price range, although the Empulse, at 14000, is a few thousand more expensive.

However, the Zero S could also be compared on these figures alone and it too, on the face of it, would stand the comparison. As I'm sure Zero S owners will tell you though, in the real world it is not at all like a CB600 or diversion, not at all. The 'instantaneous torque' is not as billed either but maybe the transmission will sort that. Don't even look at pricing and battery life/depreciation.

As I said before, I am worried that if these comparisons are made, the Empulse can only fail. I don't think it stacks up against the mid range IC bikes. Not on price or performance. I suppose it is inevitable that comparisons will be made though. I really hope I am wrong and I will be keeping up with my mid range IC sports bike friends, even if I am the wrong hands!

BUT, it will be a great bike. I wish they had mentioned a replaceable battery because I like more than 1500 'goes' from my very expensive toys before they start getting knackered. Totally agree with the pricing, 14k is where it should be, not 18!

« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 04:05:51 AM by machone »
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