Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: EmpulseRider on January 04, 2012, 02:05:04 PM
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Im DYING to know if anyone has more definitive information about the production date of the Empulse. I think we are looking at Q2 2012 right? That would mean that we could get our 3 month notice any day right?
My order number is: 20100720007 (that's because on the first day of pre-orders the system got hosed and lost my original order number: 20100715003... along with the bragging rights that came with it)
Would be awesome if we could get more information on when the production version will be revealed too! ;D
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Same boat here re: waiting.
Brammo knows that Zero is taking payments for preorders for the 2012 bikes in January, and has commited to shipping in volume in February. It's even possible that Zero's very best dealers will have early access to a limited number of bikes..
I expect (and hope) that Brammo will commit to a release date and deliver final specifications for the Empulse before that time. If they are producing bikes in Q2 then they must be finished with the design by now, and are holding the final specifications close to their chest for whatever reason.
The other scenario is that they've hit some roadblock: technical, logistics, or legal. We know the Empulse did not ship last year, we know that the official reason was the IET, and we know that they are no longer planning to use Leyden Energy battery cells.
It seems to me that Brammo is making a play for big time production - high-risk, high-gain. They've lined up serious investors, they've made partnerships with Flextronics for local assembly (er, nevermind that the 2012 US bikes will be made in Hungary). IET could be a performance game-changer.
First they have to ship. They shipped the Enertia, so they have a track record. But so little word on the Empulse.
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If the battery situation has been sorted out, you would think that the first bike to be produced and shipped to pre-order customers would be the Enertia Plus, as it doesn't have the new transmission and I assume most of the design and tooling on the bike would not have to be built from scratch, like the Empulse. ???
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Yes...If I was to guess...
Plus in Spring
Empulse shown in Spring, delivered in Summer...
Just a guess from posts here by Brian and Adrian.
The Plus could be bumped to Summer also if Brammo is waiting to release everything at once...but not sure that is the best route to go. Get some bikes out and seen, get some sales going and then add the Empulse a bit later when it is ready.
Of course I would love to see this time frame, like the Empulse, "accelerated".
Plus in late winter for pre-order people (early March delivery?), Empulse shown soon (this month? early next month? I would do it before official Zero 2012 sale of bikes in stores started so Brammo could steal some "news cycles"---gawd I'm full of puns today---and because I know we are all hoping to see it soon), and Empulse released in May/June....
But I'm not sure Brammo can get them this fast...or have dealerships ready this fast....
I hope so, but it could be Summer for everyone.
Gavin
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Thanks for the info and thoughts everyone. I must be patient... once the production version of the Empulse is revealed, I think my head may explode.
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Does anybody have any idea when the Empulse will be available in Europe(Holland)? Are the EU road laws being tackled? I am a serious pre orderer in that I would have put money down. However, the money is burning a hole in my pocket? I'd be grateful for any news even if it is bad. Thanks
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Does anybody have any idea when the Empulse will be available in Europe(Holland)? Are the EU road laws being tackled? I am a serious pre orderer in that I would have put money down. However, the money is burning a hole in my pocket? I'd be grateful for any news even if it is bad. Thanks
Join the club. :)
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It sounds like we may possibly be hearing something "soon" from Brammo...
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/)
See the comments from BrammoBrian.
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Thanks Empulse buyer the links were interesting.
My concern is after having built a car in the UK and subsequently attempted to bring it to Europe, I know the hoops I had to jump through and that was for a one off vehicle. For production vehicles I'm willing to bet the hurdles are higher. If the design isn't finalised the time to the first bike on the road, in the EU at least, is bound to be months if not a year or two. I hope I'm wrong and something about evs is easier or Brammo have it in hand but as guessing is all we have......
I've been running a worn out commuter to work with the hope of holding off getting anything until the Empulse appears but without news I'm losing faith.
On the othe hand, zero have an outlet down the road and I suppose if they managed it? No idea how long the paperwork and testing took them though.
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It sounds like we may possibly be hearing something "soon" from Brammo...
Reminds me of the acronym "RSN" used in the heady days of software development.
As in: "When's that word processing application going to be released?"
Reply: "Real soon now."
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I have been super excited about the Empulse since they first posted pictures on this site. But my patience is starting to wear thin ... I need something to ride this Summer. Already starting to look at alternatives because Brammo has been so spotty with their communications and production promises.
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Hi Atticus,
I think it's the price of being part of something new. I couldn't wait and got my name off the list. :'( I am also not sure if I will be able to afford the version they will actually release. If money wasn't an issue, I would definitely stick around. Brammo has a proven track record and I don't think Polaris would put all that money into it if they weren't expecting some big return.
As news go, I had to be away from this list for a while due to ridiculous amount of work and it seems that nothing really changed since. I would say, keep the summer 2012 release date in mind. If you can afford to wait, wait. If not, Brammo is not going anywhere and I am pretty sure they will have a 2014 model that will be even more awesome (and affordable for my own sake).
Or you can get an used Enertia just for fun and to keep you busy while you wait for the Empulse. ;D
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I'm awaiting official news myself, but I thought I would share a bit of information. Certain sources that have seen the current bikes have been very very impressed with Brammos power electronics, battery pack, and IET. As to the tune that its in a completely different class than the Zero S. Whenever it comes out it will be worth it.
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Very nice....
Still want photos and specs :)
Gavin
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I'm awaiting official news myself, but I thought I would share a bit of information. Certain sources that have seen the current bikes have been very very impressed with Brammos power electronics, battery pack, and IET. As to the tune that its in a completely different class than the Zero S. Whenever it comes out it will be worth it.
Thanks for the info... No more details though?
Would be nice to get at least a small clue from Brammo about progress... been quiet for too long now.
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I'm also waiting for final specs and production date. Especially Production date. What I would like to know is if I preorder what am I obligated to do. Is there cash involved, Am I tied to delivery within a certain time of the availability date? I would not buy if I thought I had to take delivery in November in the Northern midwest. That would leave the bike in the garage during the first 6 months of its warranty.
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When you preorder there is no obligation of any kind. It's essentially an interest check. When Brammo says they have 1500 preorders (or whatever), what they mean is they have 1500 people who were interested enough in the bike to hand over contact information.
90 days before the bike is built Brammo will contact you to take a deposit and verify your options / selection. At that point, you can tell them you're no longer interested, that you want to delay your bike, or that you're ready to proceed and here's your credit card / money order / information for financing.
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I'm awaiting official news myself, but I thought I would share a bit of information. Certain sources that have seen the current bikes have been very very impressed with Brammos power electronics, battery pack, and IET. As to the tune that its in a completely different class than the Zero S. Whenever it comes out it will be worth it.
Yes. The 2012 Zero bikes exist in the class of bikes commonly referred to as "production", and the Empulse exists in the class of bikes known as "not yet in production".
Brammo did a fine job with the Enertia. There is every reason to believe that the Empulse will be a quality product when it ships, and it's encouraging that "certain sources" have verified that a (hopefully) production-intent bike exists. I don't believe that Brammo has been lounging about, popping grapes purchased with our massive preorder commitments - if they want to continue to exist as a business, they have to ship product.
I just don't understand the business rationale behind continuing to remain silent. They certainly are losing some number of sales (not just preorders!) to Zero; continuing to hold back information only makes sense to me if they believe revealing information would cause an even greater loss of business.
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Yes. The 2012 Zero bikes exist in the class of bikes commonly referred to as "production", and the Empulse exists in the class of bikes known as "not yet in production".
Do I detect some cynicism in that comment? :P
I have to say that I'm getting a bit weary of the silence. A few weeks ago thespecialone (a Brammo insider) commented that Brammo was going to do more to let us know what was going on, but since then I haven't seen anything Empulse (or Plus) related from them. :(
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I would much rather continue to wait and get a much higher quality product than get a half baked design and have it delivered tomorrow. Unfortunately building electric vehicles, and in Brammos case quite a few of the power electronics, is greater than the sum of its parts. Brammo is not just assembling off the shelf component onto a per-fabricated frame like OCC. They have built from the ground up their own charger, battery management system, battery pack with thermal management system, vehicle control unit, chassis, and bodywork. All those sub assemblies require a materials supply chain, getting manufacturing lines up and running, investment capital, technical documentation, service/troubleshooting manuals, quality control checks on the incoming/outgoing parts, and system level checks before you have a product. It annoys me that people think building new products and making a profit is so easy, especially complex systems using new technology such as the Brammo Empulse. If you want an electric motorcycle tomorrow go buy a kit from one of the EV conversion shops but I guarantee it won't be 1/10th the bike you will get out of Brammo for the same price. Getting all the parts at cost and doing all the labor myself, it would still cost me well over $40k to build a high performance 1-off TTX-GP bike.
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I don't think that anybody is being critical of the time it takes to develop a bike like the Empulse. What is a problem is the lack of information about where Brammo is in the process.
The prototype for the Empulse has been around for more than a year. When Bramscher announced that they were going to delay production to add the gear box, folks were a little unhappy about it, but I think that most of us appreciated the info and understood the value of the change. Seeing a video of the Flextronics facility was great as it showed us that things were moving in the right direction. Watching all the coverage of the races was exciting as it once again showed us that progress was being made. Videos of the transmission in action (courtesy of SMRE) allowed us to see just how well that transmission was going to work.
Many people on this forum have been waiting a long time, and would probably wait quite a bit longer, provided that we had some idea that things were progressing. As protomech said, Brammo is surly not "lounging about, popping grapes", but the wait could be so much more pleasant if we had some news every now and then.
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Well the wait is driving me crazy...and I'm the biggest whiner here...but I do think we will be hearing news soon.
Gavin
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Me too. I can also whine with the best of them so here's mine in a nutshell. I'm about to preorder a bike where the price and performance "may be subject to change" where a delivery date is unknown, that I can't sit on or see without spending nearly $2000 in travel. Pictures are great but a motorcycle is an emotional purchase, you have to get up close to and maybe even ride up and down the street, its not like a referigerator. The whole proposition sounds like a mail order bride (except the riding up and down the street thing).
Now that I've whined my story I'll tell you why I'm still interested. Having converted my own bike to electric with a 4 speed gearbox and regen I have become familiar with what 15 to 18 KW can do and its just not enough. Yes it works pretty well but it makes 40 KW sound ideal. Plus the pictures do look pretty good.
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I'm the biggest whiner here
*flings gauntlet at Gavin's feet*
Yeah. I don't fault Brammo for taking their time to make a good bike. I think their communication has been haphazard at best - BrammoBrian's dropped some tantalizing tidbits from time to time, here and elsewhere - but there's been very little in the way of official communication with preorders .. nor solid indications of when we can expect to see more information, final specifications, or delivery dates. Statements of "we'll be shipping by this riding season" are frustratingly (and intentionally?) vague.
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Does anybody have any idea when the Empulse will be available in Europe(Holland)? Are the EU road laws being tackled? I am a serious pre orderer in that I would have put money down. However, the money is burning a hole in my pocket? I'd be grateful for any news even if it is bad. Thanks
The Zero EU headquarters are in Alkmaar, Netherlands. The 2012 Zero S is available and road legal in EU.
So if Brammo keeps delaying, you could do a test ride in Alkmaar...
Apologies to Brammo for sharing this info :-[
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IMHO: What we're seeing here is really really crappy CRM.
Let's hope the bikes are WAY better than how us loyal Great Waitees have been managed so far.
As a person who works in a service industry, I find that a lot of technical folks just don't get that there's emotional human beings on the other end of their income stream.
As well as my whine, this is a CLUE, in case Brammo reads us.
Monthly email blasts titled "What is Going On" (or some more catchy marketing phrase) wouldn't hurt a bit. Heck, all it would take is just one short comment about one arcane technical matter each month. Just feed us a tidbit to let us know you are still there and then you can work your way up to pretending you care about us!
And if THAT's too much, outsource the task!
Otherwise, there's a pretty 2012 Zero S sitting on a showroom 4.7 miles from my house.
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A monthly email update and message would surely have kept me on the hook longer. At least until the summer had arrived.
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It's tough...but I agree that a monthly newsletter would be a very good thing.
The way I see it is this: (disclaimer: I have NO inside information--sadly--these are just my thoughts. I do have a bit more contact with Brammo than the average person because I have the test/loaner bike. But mostly that "contact" consists of me emailing Brammo saying, "Love the bike, give me some inside info." And them replying, "Glad you are enjoying the bike. No.")
1) When Brammo decided on delaying both the Plus and Empulse to make some improvements, they knew they would lose some sales to Zero.
2) Which leads me to: I was surprised that Brammo didn't care too much about Zero and that they seem to still think they need to keep their 2012 info secret. I agreed with Proto in that now that Zero had their 2012 models out it's not like Zero is going to suddenly make major changes to "best" Brammo...
3) But Brammo, in my opinion, doesn't see Zero as their competition. Brammo a) knows just how hard it is to make a living selling commuter electric bikes in the US--Europe is another thing, but the US is hard right now---You can buy a Ruckus for 2 grand or a 250cc Honda for 3-4 grand. And with no range issues. Electric can't touch that...yet. b) Losing 5, 10, 20 heck even 50 sales to Zero isn't going to hurt Brammo in the long run...IF Brammo makes a better bike. Sales of EVs are slow, and will be slow for at least a year or two....Brammo is planning for AFTER those slow years. c) and most importantly....Brammo doesn't see Zero as their competition because they see Honda, BMW, Yamaha as their competition. Those are the companies that Brammo is making motorcycles to compete against when the big boys finally get off their butts and make some EVs.
4) To do that they need a different strategy. They can't make a living off a commuter bike in the States...maybe Europe, maybe Asia, but not the States. They can't make a living off a dirt bike in the States or Europe or Asia. They can't make a living off a street bike in Europe or Asia. They can't make a living off an ATV in Europe or Asia. But they can make a living (hopefully) if they have a commuter, a dirt, a street and an ATV, and sell them around the world.
5) I do think that Brammo needs...strike that, not needs but should add a scooter. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and even BMW now have at least one scooter. Scooters sell well around the world. Steal the freaking Ruckus concept and go Tough Scooter if you want to keep your Motorcycle cred.
6) We, this lovely group here, is really kinda small potatoes. There are, sadly, not a lot of us. That said, I agree that I would love more news, more contact. The thing some companies forget is just how vocal a small group can be...for good or bad. Bikes on the road, good. Happy first adopters...good. But in reality (and I kinda hate reality), in the long run what counts is sales...not a few, but many many sales. I see Brammo working toward the many many sales goal.
7) Still.....Newsletters. Yes please.
Gavin
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Thanks Kingcharles - I have tested the Zero in Alkmaar and am not too far from there. I liked it but the range is probably not enough for what I want it to do and the acceleration seemed to have a flat spot. Having been used to a Triumph Speed Triple I wasn't too disappointed by the Zero but at the same time I wasn't excited which I need to be to part with 10k. I'm hoping the Empulse will do what the Zero S doesn't in terms of acceleration, speed and range. The fact that it was electric was quite exciting but not if I have to push it the last few kilometers to work!
The lack of information is not great from Brammo. When I ordered I would have parted with cash but that wasn't an option(I asked). I'm glad now that I didn't because the newsletters are non existant and the burnout video is unimpressive and a little worrying, if I'm honest - If it had been without the foot on the curb I wouldn't have been worried! I loved my Triumph and will get a new one if I hear nothing new from Brammo by this summer. On twitter it's the same old stuff all the time and people 'in the know' are obviously not salesmen because everybody on here realises that it is new technology and is hard to do..... for goodness sake!
Summary - I agree with the above!
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This isn't really news, but it's something...
From Brammo's Facebook page:
Jorge Sanchez
Im intreseted in pre-ordering an empulse, I dont know which version yet but can you tell me the release date?
Brammo
We are delighted to hear you want to pre-order the Empulse. Over 1000 people have already pre ordered the Empulse so you would be looking at late 2012 if you pre-ordered now.
(Posted: 2/15/2012)
That's still rather vague. I think that pre-orders are up to 1500 (although who knows how many people have already given up waiting), and "late 2012" could be anywhere between September and December.
Assuming 300 bikes per month, 1000 bikes = 3 months, 1500 = 5. So the bikes could start being produced some time between April and September. That's my super wild ass guess! I hope it's closer to April than September.
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What Gavin says makes a lot of sense. I do believe that Brammo want to compete head-to-head against the current crop of IC bikes and come out looking like a good alternative, at least as far as performance is concerned - especially in the quarter-mile. I also agree that the market in the U.S. is very limited - unless the Israelis bomb Iran and Iran blocks the Persian Gulf. Then any EV on the market will sell like hotcakes until the crisis is over.
Right now, I am just not seeing the major motorcycle manufacturers coming into the game any time soon. I figure that they just don't see enough sales to justify jumping into the EV business. Even BMW is kind of goofing around with their new e-scooter, with no date set for production to my knowledge. In any case, based upon BMW's previous actions when they introduce a new model, the e-scooter will be sold in Europe for a couple of years before it becomes available in the U.S. - if it ever does.
We might see the KTM dirt/enduro models here soon, but KTM is willing to take risks that the Japanese and other manufacturers are not.
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Brammo is being their usual coy self. A few hours ago on Facebook:
Steve Schiro:
When are we finally going to be able to buy the Empulse?
Brammo:
Well that depends where you live and when you pre-ordered.......please email empulse@brammo.com for more information.........
How about a production date already? :P
I wonder if emailing them is going to reveal any new information. My guess is that I'll get the news faster by watching the Brammo Facebook page (and perhaps this forum) than by sending an email.
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You can always trust the forum. 8)
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...I do believe that Brammo want to compete head-to-head against the current crop of IC bikes and come out looking like a good alternative, at least as far as performance is concerned - especially in the quarter-mile. ...
Right now, I am just not seeing the major motorcycle manufacturers coming into the game any time soon.
I checked a few months ago, and Brammo has the global exclusive rights for the IET transmission for motorcycles and ATV's. What I'm wondering is how broad the IET patent is, and if this blocks all the major motorcycle manufacturers from selling their bikes with multi-speed transmissions.
If the IET is everything it's been rumored to be, this may make it pretty tough for other manufacturers to compete with Brammo for quite a while. They will basically need to have large enough batteries and powerful enough electric motors to beat the IET advantage. That might be a while before that kind of bike could be price competitive.
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According to the most recent interview with Zero, they think they have.
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If the IET is everything it's been rumored to be, this may make it pretty tough for other manufacturers to compete with Brammo for quite a while. They will basically need to have large enough batteries and powerful enough electric motors to beat the IET advantage. That might be a while before that kind of bike could be price competitive.
The Sora (http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/13/lito-green-motion-introduces-sora-185-mile-electric-bike/) has a CVT (http://www.litogreenmotion.com/the-sora#/technical-specs) (which is better than a standard transmission is some ways), and version 2 of the Brutus (http://green.autoblog.com/2012/01/21/brutus-2-0-electric-cruiser-is-more-beautiful-more-beastlier/) has a semi-automatic transmission (http://brutusmotorcycle.com/specs.html).
(http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/thumbnail/190x120%5E/http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2011/04/lito-sora-render-630.jpg)
Sora (http://www.litogreenmotion.com/the-sora#/technical-specs)
(http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/thumbnail/190x120%5E/http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/01/brutus-2-628-1327012415.jpg)
Brutus 2 (http://brutusmotorcycle.com/specs.html)
There are alternatives to the IET. Of course, those two bikes are a lot more expensive than the Empulse, so perhaps there aren't too many cheap alternatives.
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According to the most recent interview with Zero, they think they have.
The proof, as they say, is in the pudding..
I think we will see that the Empulse destroys the Zero S off the line and in quarter mile races, even though the (more important in the real world?) 30-60 mph acceleration will be similar.
There's a reason Tesla initially tried to build a two speed transmission for the Roadster. They didn't pull the transmission because of poor performance, they pulled it because they couldn't source a durable transmission. Then they bumped up their motor outputs to achieve their desired performance 0-60. I think the two-speed Tesla Roadster would have had significantly higher acceleration about 70 mph and a higher top speed as well.
IET durability is an open question as well. I wonder if this is causing some of the delay bringing the Empulse to the market .. though notably the Enertia Plus has also not been released.
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I wonder if the announcement hold up is due to technical issues (like figuring out if the IET will be durable enough) or political issues.
Brammo on Facebook said:
"Iindeed and we are still working to get the Federal incentive - renewed for 2 wheel EV's."
I don't think the hold up would be due to that, but since they aren't saying, we can always speculate.
Other possible reasons for the hold up:
- Selecting the winner of the free Empulse. :D
- Figuring out a way to sneak into Gavin's house to replace the Enertia with a Plus, as a surprise. :P
- Any more ideas?
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- Figuring out a way to sneak into Gavin's house to replace the Enertia with a Plus, as a surprise. :P
Now there is an idea I could get behind.... :)
Gavin
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I can understand why the Empulse, with its new and untested gearbox, might be delayed, but I sure can't figure out why the Plus is taking time to arrive. The only explanation I can come up with for that is battery issues, such as selecting the manufacturer and battery design, finalizing the supply contract, proving the durability and reliability of the battery pack, etc. ???
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Serious:
Brammo is trying to figure out how to spring a $5000 bump in the Empulse price to preorder customers.
Battery validation is taking longer than expected OR the cells are not performing to specifications.
Brammo is having trouble getting remote assembly setup at Flextronics.
Brammo is still trying to work out distribution deals with Polaris dealers.
Brammo expects incentive legislation to be passed shortly and is waiting to determine pricing.
Less serious:
Brammo HQ infested by fruitbats.
Brammo secretly has been bought by Zero and is pushing people to the Zero lineup.
Empulse has been canceled, but wait! Empulse 2.0 coming summer 2013!
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I know how frustrating waiting can be for Brammo fans, especially those who have preordered an Empulse......All I can say is that we are executing to our plan and remain on schedule - which includes our communication plan.....and that kicks into gear (pun intended) in March...including our much missed Monthly Newsletters....
The Enertia Plus is on track and you will be hearing more about that very soon..... its going to be an exciting year for Brammo riders......for Brammo ....and the motorcycle industry.
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Brammo expects incentive legislation to be passed shortly and is waiting to determine pricing.
I really hope that this isnt the hold up... they should stick with the original price of 14k or perhaps even less if they really want to sell them (even more so) like hotcakes. People will get pissed if Brammo uses the federal rebate to justify a higher price. Besides, they are selling the Empulse world wide, so pricing it with the federal rebate in mind would not be wise IMHO. Being a year later than originally planned, decreases in battery costs should make up for possible increase in motor costs with the IET.
But really, I will be a little disappointed if we dont hear something (anything) from Brammo today...
UPDATE: OK well thats something ^^^ :)
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...we are executing to our plan and remain on schedule...
That's about the best bit of February news I could ever hear. That's the music I want to hear.
Keep up with those planned executions over there at Brammo right on schedule!!
...wait... that didn't quite come out right... ;D
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I know how frustrating waiting can be for Brammo fans, especially those who have preordered an Empulse......All I can say is that we are executing to our plan and remain on schedule - which includes our communication plan.....and that kicks into gear (pun intended) in March...including our much missed Monthly Newsletters....
The Enertia Plus is on track and you will be hearing more about that very soon..... its going to be an exciting year for Brammo riders......for Brammo ....and the motorcycle industry.
Hmmmm, if March is the month of Empulse news...and we will be hearing more about the Plus "very soon"...and this is the last day of February...and March, again the month of Empulse news, starts Tomorrow....then I assume TODAY is the day of Plus news....
Unless I'm wrong....
;)
Gavin
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Of course I also thought yesterday would be the day of news...and the day before that...and even last week....so my track record isn't that great so far....
Gavin
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...
There's a reason Tesla initially tried to build a two speed transmission for the Roadster. They didn't pull the transmission because of poor performance, they pulled it because they couldn't source a durable transmission. Then they bumped up their motor outputs to achieve their desired performance 0-60. I think the two-speed Tesla Roadster would have had significantly higher acceleration about 70 mph and a higher top speed as well.
IET durability is an open question as well. I wonder if this is causing some of the delay bringing the Empulse to the market .. though notably the Enertia Plus has also not been released.
The big durability issue with the Tesla transmission was that the shift was so hard that it triggered a huge jolt in the drivetrain. It even tore the motor free of it's mounts in some of the early cars. The big reason why the shift hit so hard was because of the significant gap between the ratios in the 2 gears. If you've got an electric motor doing 12,000 rpm's at a certain speed, and you jam a gear shift with a large difference in ratio, then that electric motor has to slow down to 7,000 rpms really quickly to match the wheel rotation. (I'm making up the RPM numbers -- not actual Tesla stats). Something has to absorb the shock of that RPM change, and that force was being pushed into the transmission at the worst time -- right in the middle of a shift.
If that is done under heavy acceleration, the jolt to the drivetrain is pretty hard. Same for down-shifting. Now if you have much closer ratios (for example 6 ratios with just 1,000 rpm difference between them) then the rpm change on gear shifts aren't as big, and the torque of the forced RPM change in the motor to match the wheel rotation in the new gear isn't as harsh. Here would be the RPM changes if you quickly shifted up through 6 gears, one at a time:
12,000 RPM -->
11,000 -->
10,000 -->
9,000 -->
8,000 -->
7,000 RPM
That's much easier to engineer a transmission to handle the stress than this:
12,000 RPM -->
7,000 RPM
It is entirely possible that if Tesla would have chosen a 6-speed like Brammo has chosen instead of a 2-speed transmission, Tesla might not have had the problems with breakdowns that caused them to go with the single speed.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Brammo is ready to put the Empulse in production then all this speculation is just that. I would like to believe that it's just a matter of crossing the T's and dotting the I's...
I'm more concerned with the possible changes to the bike and the final specs.
One seat or two?
Color options,
Dealer location and service,
Range, speed, price, etc.
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We were told the Enertia and Plus are single seat, the Empulse will be a two seater.
I am anxious to see the new Empulse too. I really only wanted the Plus...but with the right changes, I could see going Empulse.
I like the higher speed. I like the two seats. I like the bigger battery.
I am not fond of sports bike styling. I would like to keep the price below 10k. I prefer the Enertia style and ride position...
Still leaning Plus, but could see going Empulse...maybe...
and of course I wouldn't kick it to the curb is I won the free Empulse....but I have a feeling that even if my name was pulled, that Brammo would go, "ohhhh, no, we can't do that", and would pull another name...and I wouldn't blame them...I would be sad, but I can see that it would look bad...
:)
Gavin
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I know how frustrating waiting can be for Brammo fans, especially those who have preordered an Empulse......All I can say is that we are executing to our plan and remain on schedule - which includes our communication plan.....and that kicks into gear (pun intended) in March...including our much missed Monthly Newsletters....
I'm glad Brammo remains on schedule.. whatever that schedule may be. Hopefully we'll find out more soon.
I'm going to assume Brammo did not actually HAVE a communication plan, given the interesting but ad-hoc nature of BrammoBrian's tidbit drops and the dearth of information communicated to preorder customers.
Monthly newsletters and regular communication with Brammo customers would be fantastic.
The Enertia Plus is on track and you will be hearing more about that very soon..... its going to be an exciting year for Brammo riders......for Brammo ....and the motorcycle industry.
I just hope the March news reveal isn't a repeat of the above.
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...
and of course I wouldn't kick it to the curb is I won the free Empulse....but I have a feeling that even if my name was pulled, that Brammo would go, "ohhhh, no, we can't do that", and would pull another name...and I wouldn't blame them...I would be sad, but I can see that it would look bad...
:)
Gavin
I forgot about the free drawing thing. Free would be cool. But I think I put in a reservation 416 slots too late to be eligible. It is only for the first 1,000 reservation holders, right?
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Like many things, I do not know the answer to that...could be first 1000, could be all pre-orders before the drawing (whenever that is), it could be "set aside" and forgotten...
No idea...maybe we will know more in March.
Gavin
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Looks like we have something to look forward to on Wednesday!
From Facebook:
Me: 3 more likes to 6000! Celebrate with a teaser image of the Production Empulse? Cant say I didnt try :)
Brammo: Look out for Sue Carpenters story in the LA Times this Wednesday .....
And weren't they in LA a few weeks ago... :)
remember this:
Brammo: Early flight to LA for Empulse launch meeting - let the count down begin.....
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Cool, I am looking forward to the news.
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Sounds like Wednesday is going to be a nice day.. unless someone slips the information a little early!
Quick, who here is drinking buddies with the LA Times folks?
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The question remains... Empulse related or Enertia Plus related..or both.
We know the Plus is coming before the Empulse...
So will this article be about just the Plus, or the Plus and the Empulse? Or just the Empulse...though that seems unlikely.
Gavin
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Brammo really like their Wednesday announcements, dont they? Just about every big announcement has been on a Wednesday.
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Anybody remember if Sue Carpenter has put out Brammo news before....I seem to think she has...
Off to the internets....
Gavin
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2010/10/brammo-enertia-plus.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2010/10/brammo-enertia-plus.html)
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/susan-carpenter/ (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/susan-carpenter/)
http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/throttle-jockey-to-ride-the-brammo-ttr-at-long-beach-grand-prix/ (http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/throttle-jockey-to-ride-the-brammo-ttr-at-long-beach-grand-prix/)
Brammo Enertia electric motorcycle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IcwiDHTADE#ws)
g
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Susan Carpenter is kind of a natural when it comes to motorcycles in general and electric motorcycles in particular. I know TTXGP has given her exclusives before. I think that she was also originally scheduled to be the rider of the Brammo TTR in the exhibition lap at the Long Beach GP in 2010, but she couldn't make it at the last minute.
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Here's some hack writing about the event, with accompanying footage of the bike at said Long Beach GP:
http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/kinetosis-brammo-ttr-style/ (http://brammofan.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/kinetosis-brammo-ttr-style/)
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Here's another video link, with the black Empulse:
Brammo Empulse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtSUoU042JI#ws)
From December 2011.
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Every time I see the Empulse prototype, I think that the bike sure has a lot of high-end chassis parts on it. I love that the bike and the way it has been designed. It really does look like a top-tier sportbike. But I also see lots of $$$ to build it as a production motorcycle. If they keep that chassis specification, it is going to be tough keeping the price much below $20K.
Looking at the Empulse and the Zero S, it is obvious that the Zero is very much a practical commuter, styled like a supermoto, while the Empulse is exactly what the reporter indicates in that video. A modern high performance sportbike.
The Zero uses reasonably priced off-the-shelf parts where they could to cut costs. As an example, the "S" comes with IRC Road Winner tires, which sell for around $40 retail when on sale. The brakes and suspension work well, but they are not Ohlins or Brembo monoblock quality. They are clearly built to a price. I also believe that is another reason why they didn't consider a gearbox or liquid cooling. That would have added a lot of money to the price and they were trying to make the bikes as affordable as they could with the available technology. The two companies clearly have different visions and goals in mind for the electric motorcycle market.
One question comes to mind: will that high specification result in an equally high performance expectation by purchasers that the bike may not be able to meet, if it starts being compared with a Ducati or BMW S1000RR? ???
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I really hope that the price does not get much higher than the advertised $14k (for the Empulse 10).
When I was first looking at buying an EV, I considered getting something like a Nissan Leaf. But the Leaf wasn't going to be able to make a round trip from my office to the coast, where I go on the weekends, and I'm not going to buy a $30k+ car that can't fulfill that requirement. (Now that I know more about EVs I'm not even sure that the Leaf could make the trip there, let alone back again.)
I figured a motorcycle that was only half that price would be worth it, even if I have to do a bit of hypermiling to do the trip. If the price ends up being $20k, I'm going to add a couple more wheels, a roof, and a bit more cash and get a car instead. I'm ready to pay $14k for a vehicle that's fun but not too practical (it's hot and very humid in Florida for much of the year). $20k is too much. Especially considering what else I can buy for $20k. (Heck, I've just been looking at motorcycle websites, and it's pretty amazing what I could get for just $10k!)
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One thing I missed when I originally watched the video.. they mentioned at 0:53 that the Empulse will charge from the same level 2 charger that the Volt and Leaf use (ie, J1772).
I expect to see numerous changes from the Empulse concept to the production bike when that is revealed - mostly for the purposes of cost-cutting and easing assembly.
I don't think Zero considered a transmission for the S because a transmission has little benefit for a commuter bike, 88 mph top speed numbers notwithstanding. I do not think they would have pursued it even if it was an equal cost option.
In Kawasaki's lineup, the Zero S/DS is most similar IMO in styling and intent to Kawasaki's KLX-250, MSRP $5000. The dual-sport lineup has a fairly compressed range, from $5000 KLX-250 to $6300 KLR-650, and up to $8400 for the motocross race bikes ($3400 range). The low-end S has a $6500 delta over its similar gas bike.
Kawasaki's small sportbike lineup has a much broader range, from $4000 for the Ninja 250 to $14000 for the ZX-10R ($10000 range). It's possible the Empulse could wind up being compared to the literbikes - it's likely to be close in price on the low-end and exceed on the top-end, but I think the Empulse won't have anywhere near the performance of the top bikes in that range. The closest similar gas bike is probably the Ninja 650R, MSRP $7500 -- and perhaps we'll see a similar $6500 delta for the low-end Empulse over its companion gas bike.
While the price and image could lead to some comparisons the Empulse is seriously unequipped for (BMW S1000RR or ZX-10R), it could also help the Empulse sales. I suppose many liter bike owners never exploit the bike's full performance on the track, but instead buy the bike to buy the best/most expensive sportbike available. If they look at the electric lineup, the low-end Empulse won't be priced out of line with their expectations - and it has the racing cred and performance, at least in the electric market.
I agree that the Zero S is a better commuter bike - at least for sub-insane freeway traffic. But Americans tend to buy either sportbikes or cruisers .. and then use them primarily for 10-20 mile commutes.
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I don't see the Empulse being used by very many owners as a commute vehicle. I see riders all the time during commute hours in the Bay Area riding trashed older 600cc sport bikes on the freeway, passing cars between lanes at high speeds and in general riding like jerks. They seem to have little interest in caring for themselves or their vehicles. Cheap and unattractive seems to be the ideal for a motorcycle commuter.
My son-in-law rides his 2000 VFR 800 (or my daughter's 1986 VFR700FII) every day to work, no matter what the weather. He never washes them and only maintains them when they break. I don't think anyone around here rides a nice bike to work every day. Something like the Zero would work because it is kind of ugly, especially in all black (at least to my eyes), and would not attract the attention of the great unwashed, with their bolt cutters and old van with its ramp.
To illustrate why you don't want a nice motorcycle in San Francisco, where just about all public parking takes place on the street, I have this story. One time when my son-in-law was riding his 1986 Kawasaki GPz550 to work, someone broke off the top of one of his spark plugs and the bike (obviously) wouldn't run well until he found a replacement. Apparently, the local residents use spark plug tops as crack pipes. Commuting on a motorcycle in a large city can be a tough task.
But, on the weekends I see a lot of recreational riders on modern sport bikes, like Ducati's, BMW's, Aprilias, KTMs, Kawasakis, etc., riding around the local hills and hanging out at the usual places. I think that is where you would see the Empulse when it comes out. But, if you ask me, that market is a lot smaller than the EV commute market. I see the Empulse as performing well, getting good reviews and looking great. But I am not too sure how many Brammo will sell in the long run. ???
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Interesting takes....Time will tell how it all plays out.
I can say that here (Albuquerque), even with nice year round weather---though not San Diego or Hawaii weather for sure, well very very few people commute by motorcycle.
In Europe I see EV commuter bikes selling like funnel cakes at a stand by the exit of a Fat Farm...but not in the States...at least not for a few more years...Americans LOVE cars...after that, Americans love FAST bikes.
I think the Empulse will do better in the States than the Enertia, Plus or Zero bikes.
Heck, the EV dirt bikes have a better chance of selling in the States than the commuter bikes (and I love me some commuter bikes...I just know that in the 7 years I've been commuting by scooter, motorcycle and bicycle that I am often fairly lonely...More bicycle commuters than motorcycle commuters...and of the bikes on the roads in the summer months...40 percent high end--Harleys and BMW bikes---25 percent beater bikes (old hondas and such) and 25 percent sports bikes and about 10 percent scooters---higher scooter count around the college though.
Every city will be different....and GAS PRICES could change a lot of this.
But for a commuter, especially for first time people and people trying to save money, many will go scooter or cheap beater off craigslist. Next people will go sports bike...lastly people will go High End bike or Electric.
Electric has a tough road ahead of it...prices need to come down...hopefully that will happen (like with HD TVs) after the early adopters help fray down the start up costs....
See, we do have an important task ahead :)
Spend a lot of money to help out our fellow countrymen and perhaps make the world that tiny bit better.
Gavin
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ps....people in San Fran need to get some Zena disc locks...nobody is gonna mess with your bike to take a spark plug when your bike is blaring out a really obnoxious alarm.
AND the EV bikes don't have spark plugs anyways (though crack heads might do more damage to your ride just trying to find it...
Gavin
ps...thirdly....take your ride inside. (my trademarked slogan :) )...EVs--no gas or oil, no leaking fluids, no smell...take your ride inside and have it be safe and charging while you work.
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Well, I'd ride the Empulse as a commuter, and as a weekender. But I'm peculiar.
Also, no need to worry about broken-off sparkplugs. :)
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I don't see the Empulse being used by very many owners as a commute vehicle.
I plan on being one. Right now, my Enertia is a commuter bike, but only because it cannot handle highway speeds the way I want it to. I can see the Empulse as a commuter bike for its primary use, but be flexible to take longer trips on the weekend.
I agree that most may not use it as a commuter bike.
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yeah...any bike I have is a commuter, weekender, shopping cart, errand runner and camper....
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2236/2411899670_88333d4956_z.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3403/3522756156_7c06bf05a5_z.jpg?zz=1)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7148/6824380549_01bcdea9cc_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7210/6833398472_2fb03e7fc1_b.jpg)
ha...I remember that as my first Camp Scoot...60 miles to the campground...20 on a highway...150cc scooter loaded down...fun times...
Gavin
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Brammo really like their Wednesday announcements, dont they? Just about every big announcement has been on a Wednesday.
Not only Wednesdays...but Wednesday when I am in out reach clinic in Gallup New Mexico.....
Grrrr, hard to stalk the interwebs and this board when I am in the boondocks of New Mexico....
Gavin
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One time when my son-in-law was riding his 1986 Kawasaki GPz550 to work, someone broke off the top of one of his spark plugs and the bike (obviously) wouldn't run well until he found a replacement. Apparently, the local residents use spark plug tops as crack pipes. Commuting on a motorcycle in a large city can be a tough task.
Those crackheads are a crafty lot, I will give them that...
Anyway, I plan to use the Empulse as a commuter first, recreation vehicle second, just like my 07 GSXR750 and the Ducati 749 before that. You cant really use a motorcycle year round here in Colorado as a commuter though, I think that may be one of the reasons why most of the bikes I see folks commuting on are really quite nice...
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So Brammo has all but confirmed via Facebook that the production date of the Empulse will be some time in May:
http://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc (http://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc)
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-electric-motorcycle-20120317,0,7364322.story (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-electric-motorcycle-20120317,0,7364322.story)
It will be built here in the US too! Very cool!
Lots of question still remain though... if production is less than 3 months out, shouldnt we have gotten contacted about locking in our pre-orders with a deposit? Specs, Price, available ranges, etc...
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Quoting delivery dates is tricky (we are now very close to the magic 1000 pre-orders).
If you pre-order an Empulse today clearly you will be at the end of a long line !
The first time the final design appears in public will probably be at EICMA in November.
The first bikes from production will go into long term high mileage testing.
The second group will be used for homologation and type approval in USA/Europe/Asia
The next group will be made available to the media for review.
Then bikes will go to dealers in the different regions N America/ Europe / Asia
The dealers will deliver in the order the bikes were pre-ordered, some customers may want to delay their delivery, if this happens other pre-orders will move up the line.
Everyone who has pre-ordered will be kept full informed via the Empulse Newsletter and they will be contacted by their local dealer 90 days before their Empulse goes into production.
Rest assured delivering the Empulse in volume is our #1 priority.
Presumably the May production is referring to the (final production version) long term high mileage testing bikes.
I would guess that puts delivery no earlier than July, with final specs and preorder confirmations showing up in April sometime.
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Ah yeah, forgot about that post. Either way, somehow I feel much more comfortable with the idea of waiting another few months now that Brammo has given us some solid information. I must admit the Zero was looking pretty good when I saw them available for instant delivery at a dealer just down the street. The thing is, I couldnt feel comfortable going from a GSXR750 to an S, but I was thinking about getting the DS and keeping the Gixxer... I would love to have an off road capable motorcycle. So maybe after I get my Empulse I can buy a used 2010 zero DS to have some offroad fun with. Not sure the wife would be cool with that though...
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:D
It's calling me, calling me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Iabn-5nerQ&sns=em#ws)
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I think the Empulse, if it keeps what we think is it's current suspension spec, will be compared to something more like a Ducati 748/749/848/799 to justify the price, compare torque curve instead of HP, and give an air of exclusivity. It will fall short in the performance department, but will make a much more practical commuter as many of the old foggies on the internet screamed for riser bars as soon as they saw the clip-ons on the prototype. If my Empulse comes with riser bars I'm sending it back!
I also feel that elmotos can't help but be fun weekend bikes and practical commuters. And not everyone lives in California (a different country unto itself) or in major cities. Actually, most people don't. I think the Empulse will have a much bigger market, if these folks can be reached and educated.
I am optimistic. Looking at the positive feedback I am seeing in sales and in the media about the new Zeros, the Empulse should be really popular.
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I was kind of hoping for a April Fools Day post under this thread. ::)
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I just got an email from Brammo saying they will start selling the Empulse in all Polaris's dealers in early July. It will come with options of bars (clip-on or riser), one or two space seats, 6 awesome colors, and 3 different models for 8K, 11K, and 14K (all with a 0% interest in up to 60 months).
Does that work for you, Richard? ;D
Happy April Fools Day!!!
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If my Empulse comes with riser bars I'm sending it back!
Hear, hear! If they offer that, I hope it's an option. I want that cafe' racer look!
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If my Empulse comes with riser bars I'm sending it back!
Ahem. You can just send it to me.
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If my Empulse comes with riser bars I'm sending it back!
Hear, hear! If they offer that, I hope it's an option. I want that cafe' racer look!
Clip-ons for me too!
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I know that changing handlebars is not that expensive or complicated on a regular ICE. Would it be any different in an elmoto like the Empulse?
???
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I know that changing handlebars is not that expensive or complicated on a regular ICE. Would it be any different in an elmoto like the Empulse?
???
It's easier to go from bars to clip-ons since you probably won't have to change the cables. Of course you'll also have two giant holes in your upper triple tree, but that's where you can put the GPS and radar detector mounts.
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The Zero uses reasonably priced off-the-shelf parts where they could to cut costs. As an example, the "S" comes with IRC Road Winner tires, which sell for around $40 retail when on sale.
If you see a good deal on those tires, please post in the appropriate places. I've been fairly well pleased with them thus far, but I did a quick pass online and saw prices around $100/tire. At those prices I'll probably do some more research before replacing like with like.
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It appears that IRC has upped their pricing game. A couple of years ago I was looking at their tires and they were really cheap, as I think they were made in China. The Road Winner IRC tires that came with my Electric Motorsport GPR-S were made in Thailand. But the Road Winner tires mounted on my Zero are made in Japan. That had to have increased their price substantially. I wonder if IRC has been bought out by another company and has now entered the more upscale market? ???
Their dirt tires are still pretty cheap, though.