Empulse Production Date?

[ElectRick]

I'm also waiting for final specs and production date. Especially Production date. What I would like to know is if I preorder what am I obligated to do. Is there cash involved, Am I tied to delivery within a certain time of the availability date? I would not buy if I thought I had to take delivery in November in the Northern midwest. That would leave the bike in the garage during the first 6 months of its warranty.

[protomech]

When you preorder there is no obligation of any kind. It's essentially an interest check. When Brammo says they have 1500 preorders (or whatever), what they mean is they have 1500 people who were interested enough in the bike to hand over contact information.

90 days before the bike is built Brammo will contact you to take a deposit and verify your options / selection. At that point, you can tell them you're no longer interested, that you want to delay your bike, or that you're ready to proceed and here's your credit card / money order / information for financing.

[protomech]

I'm awaiting official news myself, but I thought I would share a bit of information. Certain sources that have seen the current bikes have been very very impressed with Brammos power electronics, battery pack, and IET. As to the tune that its in a completely different class than the Zero S. Whenever it comes out it will be worth it.

Yes. The 2012 Zero bikes exist in the class of bikes commonly referred to as "production", and the Empulse exists in the class of bikes known as "not yet in production".

Brammo did a fine job with the Enertia. There is every reason to believe that the Empulse will be a quality product when it ships, and it's encouraging that "certain sources" have verified that a (hopefully) production-intent bike exists. I don't believe that Brammo has been lounging about, popping grapes purchased with our massive preorder commitments - if they want to continue to exist as a business, they have to ship product.

I just don't understand the business rationale behind continuing to remain silent. They certainly are losing some number of sales (not just preorders!) to Zero; continuing to hold back information only makes sense to me if they believe revealing information would cause an even greater loss of business.

[FreepZ]

Yes. The 2012 Zero bikes exist in the class of bikes commonly referred to as "production", and the Empulse exists in the class of bikes known as "not yet in production".

Do I detect some cynicism in that comment?

I have to say that I'm getting a bit weary of the silence. A few weeks ago thespecialone (a Brammo insider) commented that Brammo was going to do more to let us know what was going on, but since then I haven't seen anything Empulse (or Plus) related from them.

[2Slow4u]

I would much rather continue to wait and get a much higher quality product than get a half baked design and have it delivered tomorrow. Unfortunately building electric vehicles, and in Brammos case quite a few of the power electronics, is greater than the sum of its parts. Brammo is not just assembling off the shelf component onto a per-fabricated frame like OCC. They have built from the ground up their own charger, battery management system, battery pack with thermal management system, vehicle control unit, chassis, and bodywork. All those sub assemblies require a materials supply chain, getting manufacturing lines up and running, investment capital, technical documentation, service/troubleshooting manuals, quality control checks on the incoming/outgoing parts, and system level checks before you have a product. It annoys me that people think building new products and making a profit is so easy, especially complex systems using new technology such as the Brammo Empulse. If you want an electric motorcycle tomorrow go buy a kit from one of the EV conversion shops but I guarantee it won't be 1/10th the bike you will get out of Brammo for the same price. Getting all the parts at cost and doing all the labor myself, it would still cost me well over $40k to build a high performance 1-off TTX-GP bike.

[FreepZ]

I don't think that anybody is being critical of the time it takes to develop a bike like the Empulse. What is a problem is the lack of information about where Brammo is in the process.

The prototype for the Empulse has been around for more than a year. When Bramscher announced that they were going to delay production to add the gear box, folks were a little unhappy about it, but I think that most of us appreciated the info and understood the value of the change. Seeing a video of the Flextronics facility was great as it showed us that things were moving in the right direction. Watching all the coverage of the races was exciting as it once again showed us that progress was being made. Videos of the transmission in action (courtesy of SMRE) allowed us to see just how well that transmission was going to work.

Many people on this forum have been waiting a long time, and would probably wait quite a bit longer, provided that we had some idea that things were progressing. As protomech said, Brammo is surly not "lounging about, popping grapes", but the wait could be so much more pleasant if we had some news every now and then.

[Gavin]

Well the wait is driving me crazy...and I'm the biggest whiner here...but I do think we will be hearing news soon.

Gavin

[ElectRick]

Me too. I can also whine with the best of them so here's mine in a nutshell. I'm about to preorder a bike where the price and performance "may be subject to change" where a delivery date is unknown, that I can't sit on or see without spending nearly $2000 in travel. Pictures are great but a motorcycle is an emotional purchase, you have to get up close to and maybe even ride up and down the street, its not like a referigerator. The whole proposition sounds like a mail order bride (except the riding up and down the street thing).
Now that I've whined my story I'll tell you why I'm still interested. Having converted my own bike to electric with a 4 speed gearbox and regen I have become familiar with what 15 to 18 KW can do and its just not enough. Yes it works pretty well but it makes 40 KW sound ideal. Plus the pictures do look pretty good.

[protomech]

I'm the biggest whiner here

*flings gauntlet at Gavin's feet*

Yeah. I don't fault Brammo for taking their time to make a good bike. I think their communication has been haphazard at best - BrammoBrian's dropped some tantalizing tidbits from time to time, here and elsewhere - but there's been very little in the way of official communication with preorders .. nor solid indications of when we can expect to see more information, final specifications, or delivery dates. Statements of "we'll be shipping by this riding season" are frustratingly (and intentionally?) vague.

[kingcharles]

Does anybody have any idea when the Empulse will be available in Europe(Holland)? Are the EU road laws being tackled? I am a serious pre orderer in that I would have put money down. However, the money is burning a hole in my pocket? I'd be grateful for any news even if it is bad. Thanks

The Zero EU headquarters are in Alkmaar, Netherlands. The 2012 Zero S is available and road legal in EU.
So if Brammo keeps delaying, you could do a test ride in Alkmaar...

Apologies to Brammo for sharing this info

[Shinysideup]

IMHO: What we're seeing here is really really crappy CRM.

Let's hope the bikes are WAY better than how us loyal  Great Waitees have been managed so far.

As a person who works in a service industry, I find that a lot of technical folks just don't get that there's emotional human beings on the other end of their income stream.

As well as my whine, this is a CLUE, in case Brammo reads us.

Monthly email blasts titled "What is Going On" (or some more catchy marketing phrase) wouldn't hurt a bit. Heck, all it would take is just one short comment about one arcane technical matter each month. Just feed us a tidbit to let us know you are still there and then you can work your way up to pretending you care about us!

And if THAT's too much, outsource the task!

Otherwise, there's a pretty 2012 Zero S sitting on a showroom 4.7 miles from my house.

[Richard230]

A monthly email update and message would surely have kept me on the hook longer. At least until the summer had arrived.

[Gavin]

It's tough...but I agree that a monthly newsletter would be a very good thing.

The way I see it is this: (disclaimer: I have NO inside information--sadly--these are just my thoughts. I do have a bit more contact with Brammo than the average person because I have the test/loaner bike. But mostly that "contact" consists of me emailing Brammo saying, "Love the bike, give me some inside info." And them replying, "Glad you are enjoying the bike. No.")

1) When Brammo decided on delaying both the Plus and Empulse to make some improvements, they knew they would lose some sales to Zero.

2) Which leads me to: I was surprised that Brammo didn't care too much about Zero and that they seem to still think they need to keep their 2012 info secret. I agreed with Proto in that now that Zero had their 2012 models out it's not like Zero is going to suddenly make major changes to "best" Brammo...

3) But Brammo, in my opinion, doesn't see Zero as their competition. Brammo a) knows just how hard it is to make a living selling commuter electric bikes in the US--Europe is another thing, but the US is hard right now---You can buy a Ruckus for 2 grand or a 250cc Honda for 3-4 grand. And with no range issues. Electric can't touch that...yet. b) Losing 5, 10, 20 heck even 50 sales to Zero isn't going to hurt Brammo in the long run...IF Brammo makes a better bike. Sales of EVs are slow, and will be slow for at least a year or two....Brammo is planning for AFTER those slow years. c) and most importantly....Brammo doesn't see Zero as their competition because they see Honda, BMW, Yamaha as their competition. Those are the companies that Brammo is making motorcycles to compete against when the big boys finally get off their butts and make some EVs.

4) To do that they need a different strategy. They can't make a living off a commuter bike in the States...maybe Europe, maybe Asia, but not the States. They can't make a living off a dirt bike in the States or Europe or Asia. They can't make a living off a street bike in Europe or Asia. They can't make a living off an ATV in Europe or Asia. But they can make a living (hopefully) if they have a commuter, a dirt, a street and an ATV, and sell them around the world.

5) I do think that Brammo needs...strike that, not needs but should add a scooter. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and even BMW now have at least one scooter. Scooters sell well around the world. Steal the freaking Ruckus concept and go Tough Scooter if you want to keep your Motorcycle cred.

6) We, this lovely group here, is really kinda small potatoes. There are, sadly, not a lot of us. That said, I agree that I would love more news, more contact. The thing some companies forget is just how vocal a small group can be...for good or bad. Bikes on the road, good. Happy first adopters...good. But in reality (and I kinda hate reality), in the long run what counts is sales...not a few, but many many sales. I see Brammo working toward the many many sales goal.

7) Still.....Newsletters. Yes please.


Gavin

[machone]

Thanks Kingcharles - I have tested the Zero in Alkmaar and am not too far from there. I liked it but the range is probably not enough for what I want it to do and the acceleration seemed to have a flat spot. Having been used to a Triumph Speed Triple I wasn't too disappointed by the Zero but at the same time I wasn't excited which I need to be to part with 10k. I'm hoping the Empulse will do what the Zero S doesn't in terms of acceleration, speed and range. The fact that it was electric was quite exciting but not if I have to push it the last few kilometers to work!

The lack of information is not great from Brammo. When I ordered I would have parted with cash but that wasn't an option(I asked). I'm glad now that I didn't because the newsletters are non existant and the burnout video is unimpressive and a little worrying, if I'm honest - If it had been without the foot on the curb I wouldn't have been worried! I loved my Triumph and will get a new one if I hear nothing new from Brammo by this summer. On twitter it's the same old stuff all the time and people 'in the know' are obviously not salesmen because everybody on here realises that it is new technology and is hard to do..... for goodness sake!

Summary - I agree with the above!

[FreepZ]

This isn't really news, but it's something...

From Brammo's Facebook page:
Jorge Sanchez
Im intreseted in pre-ordering an empulse, I dont know which version yet but can you tell me the release date?

Brammo
We are delighted to hear you want to pre-order the Empulse. Over 1000 people have already pre ordered the Empulse so you would be looking at late 2012 if you pre-ordered now.
(Posted: 2/15/2012)

That's still rather vague. I think that pre-orders are up to 1500 (although who knows how many people have already given up waiting), and "late 2012" could be anywhere between September and December.

Assuming 300 bikes per month, 1000 bikes = 3 months, 1500 = 5. So the bikes could start being produced some time between April and September. That's my super wild ass guess! I hope it's closer to April than September.