Enertia Plus version 2.

[Gavin]

Ok, yes I know the Enertia Plus isn't even here yet...Heck not even here for test rides let alone to actually purchase. And already making suggestions is kinda rude...

But I'm a computer guy, so I am always thinking about the next version.

Plus Brammo themselves have said that the Enertia Plus was made to address customer suggestions and concerns about the original Enertia. So Brammo themselves kinda admit to wanting us to bug them to help perfect their machine

So what would you suggest to Brammo for their next version?

More range is always nice, and the battery tech will keep improving and actually decreasing in price..yea!...but what I would do is.

1). Add the Empulse radiator to the Enertia Plus. The radiator is actually quite small and wouldn't interfere too much with the Enertia lines. This would allow Brammo to eliminate the rear fan, or keep the fan, but have the set up so the fan is never on except at extreme cruising speed.
This would also allow Brammo to set up the Enertia Plus so it never goes into safety mode so you aren't have to limp down the highway at reduced speeds.

2) Increase top speed from 60+ to 70mph. Yes the Enertia is a commuter bike. Yes all commuter bikes have limitations. But the reality is some commutes (even fairly short ones) are at highway speeds. Having a bike that goes 60 already takes you beyond just city streets riding...might as well go a bit more and make the ride perfect for the city streets, but also quite useful and near perfect for short highway jaunts too (right now the Enertia plus is perfect for city streets and doable for short highway jaunts.)

3) O-Chain...(gonna show that bike my O-Chain face.... ). Longer wear, less stretching, LESS MAINTENANCE. The last is key for two reasons...One, everybody loves less busy work...and oiling the chain every 200 miles is busy work. Two, Brammo wants to appeal to a wider range of riders...and beginning riders or new riders are less likely to be wrenchers who like to tinker on their rides constantly. (plus I wear dress clothes to work...one big reason I ride scooters...I don't want oil and grease on my clothes everyday.)

4)and this is a very debatable point, but relates back to Brammo going after new riders, novice riders and also the female market (and female does not equal novice...many female riders are way WAY beyond me in riding and wrenching).
   
Rear Brake...Left hand or right foot? If Brammo wants to get the new riders that might get a twist and go scooter, or have a current twist and go scooter rider move up to an Enertia...well perhaps the rear brake should be similar to every current twist and go scooter, which is up on the left handlebar.

Now this is debatable as motorcycle riders are used to a foot rear brake. Scooter riders are likely use to a left hand rear brake. And some, like me, have both (my 2 stroke is geared, so left hand is clutch, right foot is rear brake, and my big scooter is a cvt so rear brake is left hand.) Going back and forth is no problem, but should Brammo offer the Enertia as a scooter replacement or substitute, thus rear brake on the left handlebar? Or as a motorcycle replacement or substiture, thus rear brake on the right foot?  Or should they offer it as both ways (probably a bit complicated).

I hate to admit that for me it is partially aesthetic...I love the Honda supercub...except I hate seeing the left handbar empty. Motorcycles have the clutch on the left handlebar. Scooters have a brake on the left handlebar. Only the supercub has the left handlebar empty (and supercub clones like the Symba)...I just semi-dislike the left handlebar empty...it just doesn't look...complete??

Anyways, 4 is not a deal-breaker...heck none are deal-breakers as I plan to buy an Enertia Plus version 1 the day they come out

5)...Move rear light to back of rear bracket. Make rear bracket sturdy and usable for some items (small rack)...or extend rear seat.

Any others

Gavin

[Brammofan]

I was nodding mildly at 1-3 (sure, radiator might be nice, top speed up to 70, uh-huh, and O-ring chain, yep) but #4, I'm going to disagree.  I don't need the aesthetic, don't use the rear brake much, and it would confuse the many motorcycle riders who might pull it hard, thinking it was a clutch.

But #5 - move light to back of rear bracket... YES.  I've been thinking about how I might mount it to the bottom of the rear bracket for weeks.  I'm more of a duct-tape and coat-hanger-wire fabricator than a smooth lines kind of guy, so I'm hoping someone else comes up with a usable easy-to-install alternative.  The light, I think, needs to be on the underneath side of that bracket to allow for the installation of a rack which would allow room to bungie cord things to it. 

Thanks for starting this thread, Gavin.

[Gavin]

You're welcome...

Yeah, I know #4 is debatable. But I have yet to grab the rear brake on my bigger bike like it is a clutch. Though when I was young I never drove an automatic car for many years...when we had our children and my wife bought a mini van, well at least twice I hit the brakes with my left foot going for the clutch...now that is one way to get every-bodies attention in the car .


I do wonder, will more people be coming to the Enertia Plus from the motorcycle world, the scooter world, or the bicycle world. All bicycle riders are very use to the brakes being on the handlebars. (something to think about if Brammo is going hard after 1st time riders. Do you treat first time riders like scooter riders or bicycle riders..of course maybe first time riders should just learn to ride like it is a motorcycle?)

Gavin

and yes, the rear light at the back of the rear bracket is a no brainer...a flat surface and a couple of bungee cords = fun fun fun (make sure the bracket is strong enough for a 12 pack )

[HighlanderMWC]

I don't think they should need to worry about people accidentally braking with a lever on the left handlebar. First of all this would typically only apply to a motorcycle rider riding for the first day or two, and I seem to recall hearing that some bikes used have different controls anyhow (Harley?). Second, look at the times when the rider would pull the clutch lever: shifting or stopping. I can't picture anything on an Enertia giving you the impression it needs to shift, and if stopping pulling the rear brake lever a little harder shouldn't be a huge issue, especially since a rider would only lock it once before learning to actually pay attention.

[Kelly Olsen]

#1 for CERTAIN and probably #3 as well. I REALLY want that fan to go away or get one that makes less noise. Other e-bikes have fans that are much quieter.

And less chain maintenance would be good too so if the O-chain works to that end then I'm for it.

[Gavin]

A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.

Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.

I don't mind if the fan comes on when I am hitting the highway or even some of our city streets that are long and 50 mph roads. But I don't like the idea of the fan running if I'm puttering about campus. A quiet electric powercycle is less "sexy" when it sounds like an xbox 360 overheating.

Also, if the fan comes on, does it go off fairly fast when you slow down, or does it stay on for some time?

Thanks

Gavin

[Phantom]

A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.

Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.

Maybe as it depends on a few factors. The fan does not come on in cool weather (45F or less) for me at all. I do very little city riding only, but I also do not remember the fan coming on for trips with many starts and stops and generally in the 25 - 35 mph speed range.

In the summer, the fan would come on at nearly the exact same place in my commute; at the bottom of a big hill, which is about seven miles into my ten mile commute.

Rider weight may also be a factor.

 

[mykb13]

I don't think they should need to worry about people accidentally braking with a lever on the left handlebar. First of all this would typically only apply to a motorcycle rider riding for the first day or two, and I seem to recall hearing that some bikes used have different controls anyhow (Harley?). Second, look at the times when the rider would pull the clutch lever: shifting or stopping. I can't picture anything on an Enertia giving you the impression it needs to shift, and if stopping pulling the rear brake lever a little harder shouldn't be a huge issue, especially since a rider would only lock it once before learning to actually pay attention.

While I agree that a converted motorcycle rider would adjust to the rear brake within a day or so, someone who rides both ICE motorcycles and electric ones will probably never lose the instinct of the clutch; therefore, I disagree with the rear brake on left handlebar because of a panic stop.  Years ago I was driving a manual transmission car on a daily basis and had to drive the parents automatic for 2 days while mine was in the shop.  Although I had been driving the automatic for a day and a half without issue, when a car pulled out in front of me my instinct was to push the clutch in and hit the brakes.  As my right foot hit the brakes my left foot slammed the non-existent clutch to the floor.  In doing so, my left foot caught the edge of the brake pedal, slammed it to the floor and locked up the brakes almost causing a crash.  It was a good thing I had my seat belt on, or I would have smacked the windshield!

Now I don't have a scooter but I do have an ATV with thumb throttle and left hand rear brake and never have any problems, but in that rare instance when you have a panic stop and don't have time to think, instincts take over and I'd hate to clamp down on the rear brake expecting to pull in a clutch.  Keeping the rear brake on the right foot will help the motorcyclists and probably not hurt the scooter riders since most of the braking is done with the front brake anyway.  The front brake on the Enertia should be more than enough to stop it and if you're at the front brake limit and need the rear brake to stop in time, then you're probably about to lift the rear wheel of the pavement where the rear brake won't do any good anyway.

Just my 2 cents

[Gavin]

Mmmm, well almost all my friends have both scooters and motorcycles...and often many different types. It seems almost all of the rides have different set ups.

I have one scooter with a clutch on the left handlebar and a brake on the right handlebar and the rear brake on the floorboard. My other scooter is a CVT and has brakes on both right and left handlebar and nothing for my feet to do.

And I have the fewest bikes of all my friends. Some have clutch scooters and CVT scooters and motorcycles and supercubs (empty left hand).

Going from bike to bike is actually quite simple. But then having bicycle riders learn to use a foot brake is easy too....so any approach is likely ok...

If they keep the foot brake, cvt scooter riders and bicycle riders will learn.
If they put the rear brake on the handle, I'm sure the motorcycle riders will be fine...actually I know they will be fine as, once again, all my motorcycle friends also ride scooters and go back an forth quite easily.

A lot will depend on whether Brammo is going for Motorcycle riders or bicycle riders.

Again, they could easily make both styles, but it could add some complexity in production

Gavin

[HighlanderMWC]

A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.

Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.

I don't mind if the fan comes on when I am hitting the highway or even some of our city streets that are long and 50 mph roads. But I don't like the idea of the fan running if I'm puttering about campus. A quiet electric powercycle is less "sexy" when it sounds like an xbox 360 overheating.

Also, if the fan comes on, does it go off fairly fast when you slow down, or does it stay on for some time?

Thanks

Gavin

My fan comes one at a motor temp of 150 or 160 and turns off once it has dropped (not sure of exact threshold but 140 for sure). If you aren't riding full throttle it shouldn't be an issue at all unless you're in rather hot weather. Even in 90 degree weather I my fan only starts up on a steep hill (steep enough that I have to drop into 1st gear on my bicycle.

[Kelly Olsen]

I don't have an Enertia, but I've been around many of them and the fan has been on all the time the bike was on regardless of day or night or if they had been driven a long or short distance. The fan was always on. And this was on four different Enertias.

I'm not suggesting that others do not have different experiences, which would be more valid than my few instances, but the fan noise was noticed and made it hard to have a conversation standing next to the bike.

[Gavin]

Part of the reason I started this thread is because of a twitter conversation between BrammoCraig and Motoette...


@BrammoCraig I think u need to take a closer look at targeting women riders & talk to Jessica Procup of the #Motorcycle Industry Coucil!

@Motoette I agree 100% would love to hear what you think we need to do to achieve that


This is one of the reasons I mentioned having the brakes like both scooters and bicycles. More women ride scooters (at least around here...college towns see more woman on scooters than motorcycles) and many more women ride bicycles. So making the ride similar to what they are used to makes some sense.

I see three things that could help sell to both women and novice riders...1 easy, 2 harder.

1. Sell it, or a version of it, that has the brakes like a bicycle does.
That is the easy one.

2. Seat height. Almost every woman rider I know would like the seat lower. This is likely hardest to do as the bike is already done. But this is often a huge issue for women who are shorter than men on average.

3. In the very good post from FrankH (Re: Hi from Amsterdam (NL), Frank mentions his Suzuki and one of the reasons he likes it...the Shaft Drive. One reason novice riders like scooters is the simplicity....and the Enertia has that in spades. Simple to drive. Few parts to break. Etc Etc. The other reason is the enclosed engine. No parts to get tangled in, no grease or oil to spray on you (though my 2 stroke is dirty, it is all out of sight).
I mentioned going to an O-ring chain...and it is a good thing...less maintenance. Less oiling. Well going to a Shaft drive would be NO maintenance and No oiling. So that is even better. But again, that would be a huge change and a huge expense. Not sure it is worth it, but it would make the bike one step friendlier to novice riders.


The other two main reasons some like scooters...storage...and not straddling an engine.
I ride in work clothes everyday. One of the reasons I picked a scooter in the first place is because straddling a dirty engine in khakis seemed stupid. Luckily straddling the Enertia isn't an issue as the "engine" is a nice clean battery. Still straddling is an issue if you are short. Again this is an issue more for women than men.

As for wanting that extra 5 miles per hour or more...sadly that is a 2 wheeler sickness. No matter what you ride you always want a bit more. So it comes down to finding the right balance. Sure if I can go 70 on the Plus I will wish I could go 75, but on balance 75 isn't really needed for this bike. But even for commuting you might need to go 65 at times, so having a few miles per hour buffer is actually, on balance, a good thing. It keeps you safer.   

Anyways...long story short...

I'm fine with how the brakes are...but if Brammo wants to appeal even more to first time riders, they may want to consider a bicycle type set up.

I'm fine with the top speed being 60plus, but would love it to be closer to 70.

I would love the O-chain, heck even as an added cost option. Shaft Drive? Would be nice, but for an "in the future" model. Maybe the anti-scooter? Chains are work and messy...novice riders would likely not miss them at all

Fan...Not a killer, but fan noise in city riding is borderline unacceptable. Selling the ride as clean and quiet is hurt by a loud whirling fan. So finding a why to either eliminate it or making it whisper quiet would be key.

Rear light and bracket...No brainer, cheap and easy way to improve the utility of the bike. Move the light to the back end and strengthen the bracket and suddenly you have a place to bungee a book-bag or other light items.

Seat height / leg over height....tough one, but if you want to appeal to more women, making both as low as possible is a good thing. Not sure how, or if, you address this...maybe again that is the job of the anti-scooter??

Gavin

[Brammofan]

Quick answer on the fan - In stop and go traffic on my normal commute, it rarely comes on until this one stretch (slight uphill) where I have to go at least 50mph to stay with the flow (even though the posted speed limit is 45).  That stretch occurs at about mile 9 of my 11 mile ride into work. Once "on", it stays on until I park it.  The only time I recall it turning off after it went on was when I was stuck in a traffic jam, creeping up foot by foot.  I think it shut down when the motor temp was down to 120... but I'm not sure.

[Gavin]

ps...also...just my thoughts...Brammo is making great "powercycles" without my imput...so they seem to know what they are doing

and I could easily be wrong on any or all points

Gavin

[HighlanderMWC]

Frankly having the rear brake on foot or handlebar isn't likely to have much impact on sales/marketing.

Not sure why you still think the fan is coming in during normal city driving, unless you consider 45mph+ as "city".

Brammofan -- check with Jenn as your fan shouldn't be on at motor temp 120F.