Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: 00049 (AKA SopFu) on March 20, 2016, 02:07:35 PM
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This error popped up on my ride today. Module 6 does not appear to be discharging. I had two 10 mile trips today (out and back), and it looks like it stopped about half way during the first ride as I pulled onto the interstate (20kw power output for about 5 minutes or so), with about 90%. By the time I got home, it had dropped to about 85%, while the rest of the pack was down to about 60%.
It looks like the battery started acting up on my ride home from work on Friday, but not enough to trigger the error. I pulled a couple other logs, and it otherwise appears to be normal, so this is a new problem.
Here's the log from Friday:
(http://brammoforum.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=420)
Here's the log going out today:
(http://brammoforum.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=419)
Here's the log coming home today:
(http://brammoforum.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=418)
To add some more context, I didn't ride the bike at all from early May last year until the end of February (broken back, then broken arm...). It was stored the hole time with SOC over 90%, and I did do a couple of top-off charges throughout the storage period, but generally it was left unplugged. Since I started riding I have ran it down to 5% and then let it it balance for about 36 hours, and have brought it down below 20% a about three times.
Has this happened to anyone else? What was the cause and the solution?
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Leave it plugged in to balance those batteries
What program is that?
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The program is "Enspector" which someone on the forum created.
Do you think it's a balance issue? They were balanced at the start.
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This has been the weirdest charging session I've experienced. To start, it appeared to be charging at 0 amps, with the fan blowing on the charger. It went up to about 66%, but since it did not appear to be charging, I unplugged and replugged in the EVSE. Fan turned right back on, but still at 0 amps. So I let it sit. When I went to bed ~8 hours later it was still showing 0 amps, but the display was showing ~85% SOC. I unplugged again, and replugged and it and it went to 99%. I let it sit all night. In the morning it was down to 96%. After getting ready for work it had fallen to 95%. It's still being charged now as I decided to drive in rather than risk driving home with an extremely unbalanced pack. The B55 error did display for a while, but went away during the charge session (I think even when the SOC was sitting at 66%).
I wonder if this is the cell balancing working. Is it taking charge from the full module and transmitting to the empty modules, with no charge coming from the charger? I suppose it's better to have a balanced battery at a low SOC than a battery that appears full, in case the bike is taken for a ride. But why is the SOC jumping around? I'd be curious to see how the anomaly in module 6 is effecting the assumed SOC.
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The program is "Enspector" which someone on the forum created.
Do you think it's a balance issue? They were balanced at the start.
Yes I do. It doesn't matter that months ago they were balanced, you let it sit and the batteries have a very slight self-discharge. Looks like one is higher than the rest. Also, they're balanced within a percentage of eachother, and after time they will go slightly out of balance.
Leave it plugged in, and the balancers will do their jobs.
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This has been the weirdest charging session I've experienced. To start, it appeared to be charging at 0 amps, with the fan blowing on the charger. It went up to about 66%, but since it did not appear to be charging, I unplugged and replugged in the EVSE. Fan turned right back on, but still at 0 amps. So I let it sit. When I went to bed ~8 hours later it was still showing 0 amps, but the display was showing ~85% SOC. I unplugged again, and replugged and it and it went to 99%. I let it sit all night. In the morning it was down to 96%. After getting ready for work it had fallen to 95%. It's still being charged now as I decided to drive in rather than risk driving home with an extremely unbalanced pack. The B55 error did display for a while, but went away during the charge session (I think even when the SOC was sitting at 66%).
I wonder if this is the cell balancing working. Is it taking charge from the full module and transmitting to the empty modules, with no charge coming from the charger? I suppose it's better to have a balanced battery at a low SOC than a battery that appears full, in case the bike is taken for a ride. But why is the SOC jumping around? I'd be curious to see how the anomaly in module 6 is effecting the assumed SOC.
That one group is higher than the others, so likely charging won't start.
They don't transmit charge from one to the lower cells, that is not how most BMS work. They basically put a resistor across the top of the battery and turn it on/off to basically burn energy and bring that cell down.
The BMS in the Empulse only works while charging if I recall correctly.
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It's still not charging. I've had to unplug it a few times to move stuff around the garage, and each time it would revert back to 99% when I would plug it back in. The SOC would then slowly drop. I haven't touched it since Tuesday afternoon, and as of this morning it was down to 76%, with the B55 error displayed on the dash again (the error was not there when I first plugged it in on Tuesday). It's been cold here, so I assume most of the drop is caused by the cell heaters.
One of my local Victory dealers has the new Empulse in stock, but they have not received any training or the hardware for servicing the new bikes. Hopefully they will get brought up to speed quickly if my problem doesn't go away on its own soon.
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I left a voicemail at Brammo Service this afternoon. Hopefully they will give me some direction. Still no luck after it sat on charge for more than a week. From Tuesday until just now it was plugged in, and it had dropped to 47% SOC. I unplugged and replugged it in for a few seconds just to see what the indicated SOC would do. Back to 99%. Here are the graphs of the charging sessions. Again, module 6 dropped while every other module appeared to be acting relatively normal.
Chart from Tuesday through today:
(http://brammoforum.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=421)
Here's what it looked like when I re-plugged it on:
(http://brammoforum.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=422)
I think I'm going to leave it unplugged for now. I'm actually worried about it over discharging with it plugged in since it is running the heaters but does not appear to be drawing anything off the wall. No power faults on the dash or the EVSE, either. As mentioned previously, the B55 error was displayed starting a few days ago.
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That's weird, let us know what it is.
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I swung by the dealer today to see how things were going. They have been able to scan the bike, and have determined that the cell module was bad. They are still waiting for Polaris to tell them what to do. The parts are not available from Polaris yet.
I'll be sad if I don't get to ride at all this summer. I missed all of last year due to injury, and was really looking forward to getting back on the horse. :'(
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I opened a ticket with Polaris since there didn't seem to be any movement at the dealer, and they thought Polaris would go faster if I called. Polaris called me back last week, and said the dealer was told what to do and things should be moving soon. I talked to the dealer today and they sounded genuinely excited to hear (from me) that things were being worked out in Minnesota. I miss the HD dealer that sold me the bike. 3 Months and counting. :'(
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I think I'm giving up, and going to pick up the bike this weekend. Polaris opened a ticket, then called me back to tell me the dealer had the info they needed to make the repair. I've called the dealer probably 5 times since then, and can never seem to get to someone that knows anything. The person who knows never calls me back.
My first baby is due in a few weeks. I won't be commuting for a while after she's born and I kind of want to ride the bike at least a little bit this year. I guess I'll ride it until it's dead, then give it back to the dealer.
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I picked the bike back up last Friday, no repairs done. The charged it up to about 85% for me. Gee, thanks. It made it home with no issues - in fact, one of the most efficient rides ever on a SOC% per mile basis I've ever had. Granted it was wet, and my wife was following me home.
I've ridden it to work three days this week, just like normal, no errors displayed. I pulled the log files, and they also appear normal (other than the date is still July 2022) - no difference between module SOC at all. The dealer didn't turn the bike on or charge it at all from the day I dropped it off until 110 days later. Or they deleted the logs, which is unlikely because other logs files are still there from them working on it last week. The battery did get significantly out of balance during that time sitting. But now it appears fine, and is otherwise working just as it did before the issue.
The dealer still thinks it's a battery issue, and I think they are still trying to get a replacement module from Polaris. I'm glad I took it back in the mean time. I am enjoying riding again...a lot.
I don't want to speculate too much, but I suspect that it is not a battery issue, and when they reassembled the bike after doing the diagnostics, whatever bad connection was causing the problem was corrected. I'll still take the new module once it comes in, if it ever comes in.
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Update time since I forwarded this chain to the new dealer working on my bike on this issue...
I road the bike all year this year. Maybe 4,000 miles. I got the error early in the year, but have not seen it since April or so. I have actually been getting Motor and Motor Controller over voltage errors more often now, which is a bigger pain because those errors cut power...and only happen during WOT, like when merging or pulling out in to traffic.
This year the bike felt down on power compared to what I remember. Especially at higher speeds. I would get "recharge battery" warnings with the SOC as high as 55% while cruising at 75 mph if it was under 60*f. Then, on the ride to the dealer this weekend, at 39*f, cruising at 60 mph with the SOC somewhere around 25% (40 miles in, and 2 to go), the bike dropped to 0% and died. I cycled the ignition, made it another mile before it died again. Cycled the ignition again, and coasted the rest of the way in. I'm glad I did not take the interstate to get there - I would have never made it. I wish I could have looked at that drive log!
Being in Chicago, I don't know if I would make the 35 mile round trip during the cold months with the bike in its current state. That would be a bummer because commuting is really the only time I ride the bike now that I have a baby. If the bike won't work when it's under 50*f, that takes away half the year.
The dealer that has it now is a Zero dealer, too, so hopefully they have a bit more incentive to keep early adopters like me happy since we are driving that business. My fingers are crossed!
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I road in last week and as I was heading to work on the highway the power cutout going from around 30% to 0% and "Recharge Required" message. I turned the bike off then back on, and off I went. Went to WOT and boom, same deal. So this next time I went easy on the throttle and eventually made it to work (5 more miles) with no more drama. Before this happened I was feeling a bit of a stutter at WOT. This has actually happened to me before, but at much lower SOC, like at 8-12%, and always in cold weather. Seems to run perfectly >60 degrees though. I have never had any issues charging though.
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Since new, I've always gotten the stutter when summoning WOT power at about 30% SOC or less. Brammo explained it to me as the protective circuit doing its job when individual cells get too lower on voltage.
Lately (4 years and 41K miles), I've seen the "Recharge Now" and blinky green lights with zero SOC come on as high as 50% SOC when going to WOT at 60 mph in 58F weather. This used to happen around 10% SOC, then 20%, 30% etc.
Nothing has cut off, so I just note the mileage (I reset trip meter to zero after each charge) and know that I can make it home on zero SOC, based on my conservative estimate of 65 miles of range available.
Having all the green lights flashing at me on the freeway in the dark at night in the cold isn't very comforting. I wish I knew a way to address this issue. Long-term cell balancing doesn't seem to help.
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Are your batteries under warranty?
Maybe go into the advanced menu on the LCD, and see what cell is too low. It might be one cell that is going lower than the others, despite balancing.
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Wow, that's crazy that the packs seem to be struggling as they age. Mine has just over 20k miles, and was delivered to me in February 2013. I'd have more miles, but two fully riding seasons were cut out thanks to injury, and then the bike sitting at the dealer for a summer.
I am pretty aware of battery maintenance fundamentals. I used to work in the Navy's battery program (I got to terminate the contract for the ASDS battery after that Li Ion burned down the $3B sub) and now I work at Argonne National Lab, DOE's lead battery lab (home of Michael Thackeray and Khalil Amine, among others). I'm no scientist or engineer, but I have gotten to interact with some of the world's smartest minds in batteries in both research and applied settings. I currently authorize work for private companies who want to use Argonne to solve their problems which means I see the problems battery companies are having. In other words, I'm not abusing the batteries beyond riding in normal conditions for Chicago.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the Chinese cells used in our packs did not have the most consistent build quality. I wonder if Polaris even knows how to check for good cells? I hope the bad module gets replaced, in any case!
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This is just speculation, I have a 2013 zero and the cells used were the farasis 25 ah, brammo was apparently using the exact same cells, my battery was recalled and replaced under warranty due to manufacturing deficiencies , could it be that some brammos have the same batches of batteries zero received but since they have abandoned their bikes they haven’t bothered with trying to rectify the situation?
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This is an interesting speculation.
Legally, does anyone here definitively know if Polaris, who took over the assets and liabilities of Brammo, have ANY obligation to Brammo owners as far as honoring the battery warranty?
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Most likely, Polaris didn't buy all assets and liabilities of Brammo. We know Brammo still existed until recently. Polaris bought just the motorcycle assets---liabilities from Brammo produced motorcycles would have stayed with Brammo. Now that Brammo has been sold to Cummins, you have just slipped another notch down the Totem pole in ability to get anything out of Brammo. Heck, Polaris won't even take care of their Victory Empulse customers let alone Brammo customers. Best chance is to find a "parts" bike and take the battery components you need out of it. I have a feeling that the first time something breaks on my Victory, it is going to be hung above my TV in my living room as "wall art" ;) !
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The battery is still under warranty, no question there.
Unfortunately the dealer couldn't get Victory to budge on replacing the module causing the errors. Victory told them to do a full discharge and recharge, and said the problem would go away. They did, and sure enough, all the cells were balanced according to the BMS. The dealer wasn't impressed with Victory's response, but there isn't anything else they can do.
I'll be picking the bike up sometime next week. I hope I can make it the 42 miles home now that it's colder. Especially considering I couldn't make it there...
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I think it fits into this thread and keeps the info in one place, so I post it here:
Empulse E1 2014, 25.000 km:
Last Saturday I rode home in heavy rain and storm at about 5°C when suddenly SOC went from about 25% to 0% at 10 km from home. I had seen similar drops on previous drives before in cold weather (0-5°C) at about 15-20%. But this totally surprised me.
I could still reach a friend's home and recharge for half an hour. When I came back to the bike it showed System Fault B55. Not knowing what it meant I tried to drive and finally got home. I recharged to about 50% and the error was gone.
Then I started researching and found this topic which explained a lot. I just had a look at the logs and attached is what happened.
(http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3215.0;attach=1973;image)
Seems to me that first while driving all modules have similar SOC, then suddenly at 25% module 6 dropped to 0%. During the first charge all SOCs increased similarly and decreased again during the ride home. Then while charging, module 6 SOC kept up to the others. Now it's up to 100 % since then and I didn't ride again due to bad weather.
Do I have to worry about bad cell(s) in module 6? Any other interpretations?
Regards from Germany
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Hello,
the error-code B55 means:
„Battery fault: SOC mismatch > 30%“
Best you leave the charger connected for some hours so that the BMS can balance the Cells in Module No. 6 properly.
Check the balance-process by pressing both buttons in the dash at the same time.
Regards
Michael (from Germany too)
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Lately (4 years and 41K miles), I've seen the "Recharge Now" and blinky green lights with zero SOC come on as high as 50% SOC when going to WOT at 60 mph in 58F weather. This used to happen around 10% SOC, then 20%, 30% etc.
Nothing has cut off, so I just note the mileage (I reset trip meter to zero after each charge) and know that I can make it home on zero SOC, based on my conservative estimate of 65 miles of range available.
Long-term cell balancing doesn't seem to help.
Since writing that, my odometer shows 43,185 miles and the SOC is now going to 0% at around 60%, even with gently applied throttle, at highway speeds.
After the ride, the display reports H14: 3.748 and L05: 3.662.
I assume that by now we are just all SOL on getting the electronics repaired by anybody, anywhere. Does anyone here know of somebody that has the knowledge and equipment to work on a sick battery pack? Perhaps an employee of Brammo could start a viable consulting business??
I guess my only option is to ride it til it dies, then try to sell the bike for parts. So sad!
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So it looks like I've joined the B55 club. Started to go for a ride and notice the B55 fault code. SOC was at 74%, Hi pack at 4,18V, LO at 3.85V. hooked charger and it shut down showing 0 amps.
My charger is outside and it's going to be cold (<35F) tonight. Scanned this thread and have a question.
Should I leave outside on the charger or bring inside and try to totally discharge tomorrow in hope of rebalancing?
Also any advice as to diagnosis and remedies is appreciated. I'm chemistry guy not a electrical guy but I can likely figure out what you are talking about...probably. ;D
Edit: here are some screens that might help diagnose. Thanks
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Hi, this isn't a reply, just a use of an existing thread for the same topic. So, the other day, after returning from a ride I put my Empulse on to charge. It started at 28% and when I returned it showed 78% on the dash along with a fault code B55 and a red triangle!!. I stopped charging immediately and went to lookup the code.SOC mismatch>30%. Not happy. I returned to the bike, turned it on and code still there. Dash showed high cell 4.137v and low cell 4.116v. 21mV mismatch. So I pulled the datalogger.
I couldn't see a fault in the logs:- Brammo minimum charge 78%, BQ116 min% 86 ( whatever that is?), Battery voltage 115.
I replaced the data stick, turned the bike on and no faults and it showed 95% charged. I've know ideas but happy.
Any thoughts anyone??
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Hi,
look at the data to see if all modules have the same SoC when charging or driving.
If one of the modules has a lower SoC, charge the battery to 100% and let it balance for a few more hours.
The cell voltage difference values on the display are for information only and may not include all modules together if the difference is in the SoC!
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Hi everyone !
sorry I missed some messages on the charging issues thread since I lost interest in fixing the Empulse due to no parts and help in my area (Hongkong)
However I had some minor Victory - fixing the charging with a hack.
Anyone wants details please contact me directly
+85290400620 whattsapp
or email
holzhammer@hotmail.com
If anyone comes accross this thread with major rebuild knowledge on the Empulse please contact me too.
might relocate the bikes to Austria for the rebuild - anyone nearby in Europe who wants to join my project or willing to share knowledge please contact me.
just bought a second (dead) Empulse and plan to rebuild both with new batteries, BMS, fast charging capability (and convert to quadrocopters )
have a total of 12 empulse battery modules on hand to sell or trade - all in working condition - however they are located in hongkong - shipping might be tricky and expensive (possible though - my friend shipped recently)
I also inherited an original Brammo diagnostics Pad - so I can check the batteries with the diagnostics software.
Best wishes and don t cook your bikes
Dietmar