Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: roma258 on February 17, 2015, 08:27:22 PM
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I've followed the electric motorcycle scene with various degrees of interest from the very beginning and something that struck me even back then, and especially now that I have the bike, is the catty attitude towards Brammos from other OEMs and riders. I remember going to the NYC bike show a few year's back and the Zero rep dismissing the Empulse as vaporware and offering to wager it will never see the light of day. Last year I did a demo at a Zero demo, and once again the reps were bad mouthing the Empulse over liquid cooling (of all things). And when Brammo got bought out by Polaris, the glee of some message board chatter was pretty obvious. So what am I missing? Is it the gearbox? Craig Bramscher's personality? Simple intra-brand sniping? I dunno, I find it kind of weird and off-putting.
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They hate us 'cuz they ain't us. (http://youtu.be/IBY29rBlkbc)
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They hate us 'cuz they ain't us. (http://youtu.be/IBY29rBlkbc)
They hate us cause they anus?
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I was fortunate to test ride both the Zero and Brammo at the same dealer. They were helpful in answering my questions but really let the bikes speak for themselves.
The transmission argument seems to be the classic Chevy vs Ford, Mac vs PC, etc. Everyone has their preference, and everyone likes to hear how right they are.
Chocula
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Yeah, when I was praising the Empulse on another forum, none of my points were addressed. Instead I got called out as a "fanboy." I don't go there much any more.
I don't have a real answer, but my impression is that the animosity appears to be based on something personal between a group of folks and Craig Bramscher. I avoid gossip and tuned out, once I intuited that it was some personal grievance. But I could be totally wrong in my guess. Often wrong; never in doubt! Or, as I just read on a local moto forum: hey, I ain't no rocket surgeon!
I'd like to test ride the 2015 Zero to see if their improvements brought it up anywhere near close to being the real motorcycle the Empulse is.
I rode the 2012 and loved the silence, the belt, and the lack of need to shift. BUT the acceleration off the line didn't meet my needs and the suspension felt cheap and the brakes were scary. But those are just my preferences and I'm not gonna make any other rider wrong for his or hers.
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I think there are two main points of contention. One is obviously the transmission. As the only electric vehicle (including cars) with a 6 speed tranny it takes one of the main arguments FOR electric vehicles away, which is the simplicity.
Second, Brammo has an incredible PR department, but they haven't delivered the improvements that Zero has. Each year Zeros get better and goes farther, and the Empulse is fundamentally the same as when it first came out. All this translates to a lot of noise and not much action. I think some electric motorcycle fans feel deceived that they were expecting this great annual battle between Brammo and Zero, but only Zero shows up and delivered improvements year after year.
Personally I really like the design of the Empulse, but would never own one because of the transmission. Make it a proper EV with 1 gear and you'll probably see a lot of converts.
I also want to be clear that I really like Brammo riders. I have met several of you (I ride a Zero and have also gone for a spin on an Empulse) and have only had great interactions. I just want to see Brammo, now Polaris, put out an improved product to keep electric motorcycles moving forward toward mass adoption.
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My only complaint about Brammo is the 18 month delay between accepting orders for the original version of the Empulse and final delivery, which occurred after the introduction of the 2012 model Zeros. That 18 month wait really pissed me off, as they gave no indication that it would be that long before the bike was on the showroom floor. Also, I really liked the original version of the Empulse without the transmission and felt that they should have made one version without it and one with it and let the market decide which version was more popular. ???
So I pretty much got pushed to Zero when the Empulse introduction was delayed longer than my patience (and my failing Electric Motorsport GPR-S) could handle. I still think the Empulse has the better chassis and handling, but I have learned to deal with the Zero's design limitations, its performance, and their ability to continue to stay in business and improve their product every year.
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I think there are two main points of contention. One is obviously the transmission. As the only electric vehicle (including cars) with a 6 speed tranny it takes one of the main arguments FOR electric vehicles away, which is the simplicity.
Personally I really like the design of the Empulse, but would never own one because of the transmission. Make it a proper EV with 1 gear and you'll probably see a lot of converts.
You make a lot of good points, but I never understood this idea that an electric motorcycle with a transmission isn't a proper ev. For me, it makes it a much more broad range vehicle, since it can maintain highway speeds without any issues, but also have a proper gear ratio for quick acceleration around town (without needing to hold the clutch in at stops). Sure a powerful enough motor can potentially take care of that, but even the SR has pretty lousy top speed and the rest of the bikes are either experimental or true exotics. It just seems like such an odd thing to get hung up on, but maybe it goes to the heart of the argument of whether the buyer wants a motorcycle that's electric, or an ev that's a motorcycle.
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You make a lot of good points, but I never understood this idea that an electric motorcycle with a transmission isn't a proper ev. For me, it makes it a much more broad range vehicle, since it can maintain highway speeds without any issues, but also have a proper gear ratio for quick acceleration around town (without needing to hold the clutch in at stops). Sure a powerful enough motor can potentially take care of that, but even the SR has pretty lousy top speed and the rest of the bikes are either experimental or true exotics.
The Zero SR has a listed top speed of 102mph, and the Brammo Empulse has a listed top speed of 110mph. Also, I have gone 100mph on my 2012 Zero S. In terms of maintaining highway speeds, I ride on highways almost all the time. Also, Zeros have aftermarket software available to get ride of the limiter and go faster.
Just want to be sure we're both talking about the same bikes. However, I also don't want to hijack this thread from discussing the reasons why people do or don't like Brammos. I find this particular topic very interesting since it is so much about perceptions.
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I've followed the electric motorcycle scene with various degrees of interest from the very beginning and something that struck me even back then, and especially now that I have the bike, is the catty attitude towards Brammos from other OEMs and riders. I remember going to the NYC bike show a few year's back and the Zero rep dismissing the Empulse as vaporware and offering to wager it will never see the light of day. Last year I did a demo at a Zero demo, and once again the reps were bad mouthing the Empulse over liquid cooling (of all things). And when Brammo got bought out by Polaris, the glee of some message board chatter was pretty obvious. So what am I missing? Is it the gearbox? Craig Bramscher's personality? Simple intra-brand sniping? I dunno, I find it kind of weird and off-putting.
Part of the Zero dealer animosity is due to Brammo's bungling of product delivery.
Here's an abbreviated timeline:
- 2009: Zero struggles with product delivery. Few 2009 bikes were sold.
- Early 2010: Zero announces 2010 bikes, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Mid 2010: Brammo announces 100 mph Empulse 6, 8, 10 for "next summer", $10k to $14k. Who would buy a $10k 3.5 kWh 65 mph Zero S now?
- Early 2011: Zero announces 2011 bikes, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Mid 2011: Brammo announces Empulse is delayed to "next year", gets a transmission
- Late 2011: Zero announces 2012 bikes with big battery increase, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Mid 2012: Brammo reveals production Empulse, big price increases.
- Late 2012: Zero announces 2013 bikes with big power increase, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Dec 2012: Brammo delivers the first Empulse R.
- Late 2013: Zero announces 2014 bikes, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Late 2014: Zero announces 2015 bikes, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Early 2015: Brammo announces Polaris acquisition.
The Empulse is truly a great bike, and I have big respect for Brammo's engineering team and service team. But everything else has been poorly handled IMO.
Customer communication
Next to nothing during the Empulse development, outside of Brian stopping in here from time to time (greatly appreciated). Considering the bike was delayed for effectively 2 years and prices rose between $5k to $7k ..
Transmission
Compare the big-motor Zero SR to the small-motor/transmission Empulse. Same battery voltage, same motor controller. The Empulse is maybe faster 0 to 30. And it has a slightly higher top speed - Cyclegear lists the tested top speed of the SR at 98.7 mph and the 2013 Empulse at 103 mph.
But once you leave the racetrack, the Zero is faster and easier to use in every way that matters. It's quicker as soon as the Empulse has to shift out of 1st, quicker to 60 mph, quicker and faster through the quarter mile, and fits a much larger battery pack in less weight. The Zero loses the gearbox cost and weight, gearbox maintenance, gearbox oil leaks, drivetrain lurch, and bizarre control complexity: neutral between 2nd and 3rd, six speeds, and a clutch that honestly feels vestigial.
Maybe it was a marketing gamble; some people really like the idea of transmissions, and the Empulse is the bike for them. But many of them find when they swing a leg over both bikes that the transmission isn't needed. Perhaps Brammo is right, and the familiarity of the transmission will be a big win for Victory when they're courting riders used to conventional bikes.
And strip away the marketing. The bikes Brammo built for racing don't use gearboxes.
Product planning
Brammo Parx? Engage / Encite?
Remember when Brammo was selling bikes through Best Buy? Or Harley dealerships? Or the summer "promotion" that's still going on?
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There are a few people within the EV enthusiast space, whether dealers or staff at other motorcycle companies or one-time customers, who see Brammo's flailing as malicious. I think that's an exceedingly unkind outlook, but I can see why they might think so.
Building motorcycles is hard - even conventional bikes, nevermind developing fundamentally new technology. Brammo should be commended for trying new things, and doing as well as they have .. but at the end of the day, what's important is sticking to a plan and executing on it. The sum of 10 years of development and production is a few hundred bikes.
Zero has certainly stumbled many times, from early 2009 production issues to pre-2012 battery failures to 2012 motor encoder failures. But since 2010 they have consistently iterated and delivered. And in the process their product lineup has gradually transformed from souped-up dirtbikes to well-crafted street bikes that offer enough range and power to win over thousands of riders.
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Part of the Zero dealer animosity is due to Brammo's bungling of product delivery.
+1.
You can also add talk about taking the company public as another distraction. Possible 4 wheel projects, etc.
I think the transmission came from marketing requirement of having a 100 MPH top speed. The gearing needed to break 100 using the early Empulse motor would have given poor performance at low speeds.
I personally don't see how a manual transmission can be a "feature" when it is not really needed. The maintenance interval, for those who don't have the time or knowledge to work on their bikes, comes twice as often as many ICE bikes. This assumes you actually have a dealership nearby.
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Thanks, Protmech, for your insights, perspective, and your chronology of events.
I shared your frustration at the "Great Wait" and the attendant near-nada-level of communication from Brammo in the early days. I wrote about it on this forum. For some reason, it didn't turn me into a hater.
But for me, where the rubber meets the road, is the bikes themselves. THAT's what I ride.
In my riding (daily commutes and riding around San Francisco all day on the job) the transmission certainly is an important feature, and not a marketing gimmick.
I love how first gear in Sport mode does an excellent job of holding the speed to 20 mph down the steepest of SF's hills. More importantly: On more than one occasion, the lightening fast takeoff has saved my bacon in traffic. When the illegal left-turner tried to hit me, I just wasn't there.
When I test rode the 2012 Zero, I joked with the very nice salesperson: "When I twist the throttle, I expected to see a message on the dash: 'Please wait. Acceleration program loading...' " That was the main deal-killer, enough to make me wait all those months to test ride the Empulse upon release.
Aside from racing Ducati's away from the lights, this 1st gear acceleration is a necessary safety issue for me and makes the Empulse a premiere streetfighter in the jungle in which I ride. Sure, there's a 10 lb weight penalty (tranny weight less weight savings from smaller motor) and I get to change a quart of oil every 3000 miles. All worth it, for the way I use the machine. (And I love an excuse to break out my torque wrench!)
Once I had a psycho limo driver cut in front of me and slam on his brakes to make me hit him. The dual Brembo's up front saved my assets, by about 6". I'm pretty sure I would have been an ornament on his bumper on the Zero. I likes me some world class brakes! These are more than empty marketing farkles, in my everyday 23K miles of experience.
These differences are crucial to me and my view was privately shared by a Zero dealer's representative at a National Plug In Day event here in the Bay Area a couple of years ago. To paraphrase: "I keep begging them to upgrade the suspension, brakes and tires." It sounds like Zero is listening and acting and I'm in agreement with you on the kudos for continuous improvements. But then, from my needs perspective, they had a longer way to go to make a bike that works for me. I just hope Polaris is on board with a robust improvement program.
As to the RR not having a tranny: Brian addressed that question during a public talk at the Scuderia shop in San Francisco. The RR is a RACING bike and, like the unobtanium Lightning and Mission Motors machines, uses high voltage and a big motor. He explained that it's easy to boost performance with this approach, but that for a CONSUMER product, the costs of the high voltage ancillary equipment are prohibitive. Lower voltage, smaller motor, and a transmission penciled out to be a very workable solution. Does the Empulse NEED all 6 gears? Of course not, but, again, the costs of using a custom-designed tranny vs. using a robust model off the shelf dictated the choice. There are other advantages of using 6 gears:
a) It's easy to choose the right gear for best efficiency on the highway for any given speed.
b) It's easy to pick one gear for the current driving environment (stop-n-go, streets, boulevards, highways).
c) The steps in downshifting while using aggressive regen are safer for the rider and the motor than hitting bigger jumps.
So I welcome the plenty of room for advancement in both brands and look forward to test riding what's out there in the future. And just maybe Polaris will communicate effectively!
Finally, I echo your appreciation of the relationship between riders of the two brands on this forum. Heck, I even traded bikes with Richard 230 for a twisties ride, and he turned out to not have horns at all! We even shared the commonality of both owning R1200R's. The world certainly doesn't need more religious wars!
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My thoughts about the Empulse delay is that Brammo wanted to launch a bullet proof bike. And dealing with a gearbox and the added complexity took longer than expected. But even today I believe that the Empulse is a more complete bike. To me it is better though through. It has only fallen behind in battery capacity to Zero.
Zero launched a completely new model each year until they started refining their 2013 models. That approach means big advancements each year but less reliability. And Zero still lacks two deal breakers for me:
- Decent on-board charging
- Battery heaters
And sustaining a high speed may still cause thermal cutbacks??
Two different approaches to go to market. And in my opinion no reason to dislike one brand or the other.
PS: Just wanted to add another advantage to to having a gearbox:
Better acceleration when carrying a passenger 8)
And I like the fact that it produces a clear sound so pedestrians and bicyclists hear me coming.
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And I like the fact that it produces a clear sound so pedestrians and bicyclists hear me coming.
Quit your whining! ;)
Since, as a rule, women hear higher frequencies better than men, and since, as a rule, younger women hear better than older women, it stands to reason that if you are a heterosexual male on the prowl, you're way better off on an Empulse than a Harley. Just sayin'...
(Of course at my age, that makes no difference whatsoever: Sure, their heads swivel at the gear whine, and then they see the gray beard. Game over. Got to get me one of those dark-tinted visors!)
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Great commentary and in some way supports my initial intuition that the split is between an electric vehicle that happens to be a motorcycle and a motorcycle that happens to be electric. It would've been interesting to see if Brammo could've caught up on the electric powertrain (had they kept developing the bike) the way that Zero has seemingly caught up on the chassis components. Hopefully Polaris picks up where Brammo left off, and doesn't veer too far into cruiser schlock territory.
I will say, on equal pricing, choosing between an Empulse R and Zero SR would've been a really, really hard choice. Ofcourse I could never afford the MSRP on either, so it's a moot point 8)
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This thread illustrates how it's possible (easy, even) to discuss the relative merits of Zero v. Brammo without getting catty. The original question was, why the cattiness? I don't think that's been answered, and maybe it's not really a subject susceptible to investigation.
My theory would simply be that when you've got two worthy competitors battling for such a narrow market share -- so narrow in fact that probably only one of them can stay in business -- people will sometimes give in to their baser instincts.
My choice was between a 2013 Zero and a 2013 Empulse. I test rode both and the choice to me was clear. In my personal calculation, the transmission was kind of a wash or maybe a slight negative. I liked the flexibility it offered, but didn't feel that flexibility was worth the extra complexity. But even viewing the tranny as a negative, the Empulse still came out ahead as just a more refined product. It also mattered a lot that the dealer (Scuderia) was a known quantity to me and much more convenient to access.
If I were making the choice today, it would probably still be the Empulse as long as it is being offered at essentially "going out of business" prices. I'd be worried about the continued support, but could probably get past that enough to put my money down.
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OK, so I just checked the Brammo website and apparently they are planning to stay in business -- or at least, they have returned to the prices that are based on that premise. So my choice, if I were making it today, might be tougher.
You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride. In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.
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You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride. In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.
This.
Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??
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You can analyze this stuff all you want but for many folks, nothing helps make a decision like the visceral experience of a test ride. In 2013, that experience left me with no doubt.
This.
Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??
It's pretty much academic at this point. Doubt there's more than 5 new examples left in the whole country.
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Off topic: on the Brammo site, the 2013 Empulse is the same price as the 2014. But for the Empulse R, the 2013 is $1K more than the 2014. Whut??
The 2013 R models probably have the carbon fiber bodywork that was changed to plain plastic on the 2014 models (both regular and R). Since those body panels are now a $1500 upgrade for 2014 models they probably adjusted the price of the old R models to match. It's actually $500 less than a 2014 R upgraded with carbon fiber...
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For me zero is no match for the Empulse. I bought the Empulse by that brought together what he wanted, the zero has nothing. As in petrol bikes, fixed me a lot in aesthetics, and performance, I want and need, I'll do with the bike, finally today from my preferences there is no match for the Empulse.
Empulse evidently be improved, but basically greater autonomy.
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This thread illustrates how it's possible (easy, even) to discuss the relative merits of Zero v. Brammo without getting catty. The original question was, why the cattiness? I don't think that's been answered, and maybe it's not really a subject susceptible to investigation.
This quote from near the end of protomech's very lengthy post seems to me to be the best explanation for the tone of the discussion:
There are a few people within the EV enthusiast space, whether dealers or staff at other motorcycle companies or one-time customers, who see Brammo's flailing as malicious. I think that's an exceedingly unkind outlook, but I can see why they might think so.
I'd go one step further and say that when the Empulse was in its final delivery stages there were posts I'd seen that specifically blamed Brammo for running a PR interference campaign. It came to a head in late 2012 when the Zero announcement of the 2013 bikes came right at the same time that Brammo started announcing and giving demos on the Empulse and taking deposits.
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Yep, I remember that.
Bottom line: Flailers gonna flail; haters gonna hate. Whatcha gonna do? Ride!
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One minor correction on a very lengthy and informative post:
Here's an abbreviated timeline:
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- Mid 2012: Brammo reveals production Empulse, big price increases.
- Late 2012: Zero announces 2013 bikes with big power increase, delivers them to dealers shortly after.
- Dec 2012: Brammo delivers the first Empulse R.
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Your point about Zero never announcing anything until it was just a couple of months to delivery is a good one, but the 2013 Zero bikes were delivered about a month, maybe 2 after the Empulse was delivered. I don't know the exact date of delivery of the first 2013 Zeros, but I do know that it was not before the end of January 2013 because I was in the uncomfortable position of having an Empulse with my name on it and a dealer pressing me to sign the paperwork while I was waiting to even lay eyes on the 2013 Zero. I eventually did get my test rides in so I could make an informed purchase between the two latest models, and they told me that they might go on sale second week or so of February at that time, but it was difficult to get much out of Zero in that time period until the bikes appeared at the dealer.
The actual time frame was more like:
Early May 2012: Brammo introduces production Empulse
October 1, 2012: Zero announces 2013 models
mid Dec 2012: Brammo delivers the first few Empulse R's
Late Jan, early Feb 2013: Zero delivers the 2013 bikes
Time from Empulse prototype to delivery was something like 3 years?
Time from Empulse product announcement to delivery was ~7 months.
Time from Zero product announcement (of an entire range, no less) to delivery was ~4 months.
And, my personal experiences added to this timeline:
early Jan 2013: My dealer starts pressing me on the fact that my Empulse R is ready for purchase, it was frustrating to see some friends get theirs starting in mid December
early to mid Jan 2013: Jim is trying to reach Zero through dealers to get a test ride of the bikes announced a couple of months ago.
late Jan 2013: My dealer is ready to sell bike to someone else, no word from Zero, I let my (potential) Zero dealer know that I'm likely to pull the trigger
late Jan 2013: Zero shows up at the local dealer with a truck full of 2013s and I get my test ride. During the discussion they discuss earlier test rides with other customers at the same dealer. They also diss the Brammos to my face (thinking that will somehow sway me?). :(
[Edited last couple of items on my personal timeline to "mid Jan 2013" because I'm pretty sure my registration date on my bike was 1/19 meaning I couldn't have been still trying to get info/rides in "late Jan 2013"... - Changed back to "late Jan 2013" as I just checked and indeed my purchase date was 1/28...]
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According to an article in the April issue of Motorcyclist magazine, regarding the sale of Brammo motorcycle production to Polaris, Richard Walker, CEO of Zero Motorcycles, is quoted as follows:
"We're happy to have Polaris bolster Brammo. We think Polaris' interest validates the electric-motorcycle market, and we welcome the competition."
If anyone in the industry "hates" Brammo, I sure haven't heard about it - and that includes my Zero dealer. They have never said a single negative word about Brammo or their products around me.
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If anyone in the industry "hates" Brammo, I sure haven't heard about it - and that includes my Zero dealer. They have never said a single negative word about Brammo or their products around me.
I have patronized that dealer since Ned owned it way down on El Camino and we both owned ST1100's. They've worked on 2 Hondas and a Yamaha for me over a 10+ year period, including a $1000 clutch replacment.
I loved my experience test-riding the 2012 Zero with them.
Then, last year, I got a puncture in my Empulse's rear tire and they are one of the few shops who will put in a plug from the inside. They've done that for me 3 other times over the years. After filling my rear tire to 50 psi, I left home and rolled in to the shop on a near-flat tire so I could go to work that day. The repair shop was gracious enough to fit me in, but then I overheard some angry words and learned that the shop manager got into hot water from the owner of the dealership, who, on the spot, laid down a new rule: no working on any electric bikes other than Zero. Over a tire repair! (The service dept. finished the repair and apologized to me.)
I'll admit, this isn't really saying "a single negative word about Brammo or their products", but it has sure kept me from ever going back there as a customer for anything at all since then. :(
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Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread. :D (I know, Harry, "such a Dillard", right?)
Long ago I got labeled a Brammo "hater", and in spite of a lot of work on my part and a consistent track record of trying to get facts, not opinion, and contact sources, rather than internet gossip, I still seem to have that label. I'll start off by saying I don't hate, dislike, actively discredit or am ever gleeful about misfortune regarding Brammo, or anyone there - and I have spoken personally to more than a few of them. So at the outset, I feel like, because of several occasions where I call it as I see it, people who don't want to see the facts for what they are, call me a "hater".
I think of all the comments on this thread, protomech hits a lot of the points on the head, in response to the OP. I started following Brammo back in the days of the Shocking Barack tour, when their big claim was to "Under promise and over-deliver". If you follow their history, now, that was a mantra that was clearly left by the wayside.
My biggest issue with Brammo is simply credibility. I, and I'll go out on a limb and say almost every guy I know out there writing about this stuff who takes it seriously, simply have a hard time believing anything they claim anymore. I can go through the list - starting with Shocking Barack, to the Enertia, the transmission, Best Buy, their racing strategy, the Empulse design and delivery, and point to instance after instance where Brammo has said one thing, and ultimately done something completely different. My last story on IEV was complimented by protomech for making the effort to contact Brammo. What I was told by them was hugely spun, at the very kindest description. You'll note, at no point in my story did I do anything other than say "Brammo said...", because I simply didn't have enough belief in what I was being told to come out and claim it as fact. Honestly, I'll not waste my time reaching out to them again to try to get a fair view of their side of the story. I just don't have the time, or, at this point, the interest.
My best characterization of Brammo's management is that it suffers from ADD. The biggest difference between Zero and Brammo I see is that Zero has, year after year, stuck to the knitting and demonstrated a commitment to the astoundingly difficult task of building a motorcycle company. Brammo runs from project to project.
Today, they claim to be re-focusing their business on BrammoPower, their drivetrain. Can anyone point me to any company that has successfully launched a company based on an EV drivetrain? They claim they have countless requests for it, and I hope for the sake of the entire team that's left they do, but I don't believe it. Not even for a second. I have my own beliefs about what really happened there, but only time will tell if I'm right or not. But I'll say this. When I did the Op-Ed in InsideEVs on the Polaris buy-out that I saw coming, I was labeled a hater once again. Except I was dead-nuts on.
On dealerships and their attitudes, I've heard story after story about how Brammo has made it nearly impossible to work with them to sell and service their bikes. One of the last threads I did on elmoto was about the challenges small, independent dealers face. I'll see if I can find it and post the link here. (update - the thread was lost in one of the elmoto database crashes, sorry.)
I put together a Brammo timeline on my site: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/the-brammo-timeline/
...as well as a Zero timeline: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/01/04/zero-motorycles-timeline/
I really think that an honest look at those two histories speaks for itself. I have been told, straight out, that Bramscher calls the shots at Brammo often disregarding his own (remarkable) team's advice, and several sources have backed that up. In any case, the CEO is ultimately responsible for the decisions and direction of the company, so I'd hold him as responsible as I hold Walker at Zero. So when I am critical of Brammo's decisions, yeah, you can say I'm hating on Bramscher, I suppose, but it's certainly not personal.
Here in Brammo land, you guys love your bikes. That's awesome, because anybody who's read anything I've ever written knows that's my bottom line. But from Brammo owners in particular, from the very beginning you got the feeling that if you're not 100% behind everything they say, and dare to question it then you're not "one of us". You're clearly "one of them", a "hater", and that's an attitude that I feel comes right from the company, and the top of the company at that.
Harry's response to the OP is almost exactly what I'm talking about. And you know I love you, ya big lunk. I know it was a joke, but my response as someone from outside of the "Ashland Bubble" isn't to laugh. You're just perpetuating the religion.
Which is unfortunate. Because the only "us" and "them" I feel is legit in this discussion is EV and ICE. And even that is lame. Because we all love motorcycles, right?
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For the record, my initial question was not directed at anyone in particular, just an overall vibe I've gotten over time, including multiple interactions with Zero reps. I've been in "Brammo land" for like 2 months now, 4 if you include snooping around the board while making my purchasing decision. But yeah, the general consensus seems to be that Bramscher's business practices really soured a bunch of people. I do have to wonder with him being such an unreliable partner, why Polaris would make the investment that they did instead of just letting Brammo whither on the vine? Not snarking, just curious where this is all going.
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Just one comment about the forums, then I'll sit down. I was very active on elmoto for almost since it started, and it was started by a bunch of guys who were building their own bikes. In the early days it was a small group of guys, Brian Wismann included, who were learning and a few of them were on the cutting edge of the tech. It was kind of a curious mix of the incredible talent you see on Endless Sphere dedicated to just building motorcycles. I'd wager that Brian would say he learned as much as any of us did from that forum at that time. A ton of that was lost in a huge database crash, and to someone new to the forum you'd never know about it. I later became a moderator, and was very active it maintaining it.
As racing gained some traction we started seeing a lot of involvement from "keyboard racers", who knew little or nothing about the tech other than what they'd gleaned from the internet. There was some concerted effort on the forum to keep the focus on builders, by the mods, with the blessing of Mike, the owner. Then we started seeing owners of Zero and Brammo bikes getting onboard. On one hand it was cool - even Terry Hershner started out building his own and ultimately bought a bike - but after discussing stuff like transmissions for fully 5 years, with some very knowledgeable engineers contributing, to have an Empulse owner get on with little or no knowledge of the physics and simply parrot what Brammo was touting rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. When you're working a board that people trust for good, safe advice, it gets dicey when you start seeing people giving advice who really have no business doing so.
Not only did we see the board start splintering into the Zero and Brammo owners, but also the builders vs. the buyers.
I'll take full responsibility for my part in that, but it was an effort to keep the board focused on what it was created for - builders. Ultimately I got off, for various reasons, but they're still a great place to visit to see madmen building crazy awesome stuff, and get advice on how you can do it yourself.
Just wondering if maybe some of the off-putting you experienced there may be due to that, and not really the Brammo side of it.
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I do have to wonder with him being such an unreliable partner, why Polaris would make the investment that they did instead of just letting Brammo whither on the vine?
How do you know that isn't what's happening? They bought the motorcycle end and let the rest fend for itself.
Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread.
Welcome to the forum. I for one like hearing your input.
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The debate of hate.
Well I can say there's no hate for anything motorized with two wheels here. Now I can only tell you my personal decision at the time to choose Brammo over Zero. I see everyone comparing time lines, for a tranny or no tranny, but that wasn't it for me. I was on the waiting list for the Empulse R since Feb 2011. I signed up because a few months earlier I got the idea to buy an electric car to save money on rising gas prices. I was just looking for a daily commuter. Something that was cost effective with some style to get me around on my days off. 99% of the time I'm within a +/- 25 mile radius of the homestead. The problem was that all EVs at the time sucked! So this crazy thought came crashing down into the grey matter between my ears like a message from Ancient Aliens so I Google "electric motorcycles". I began reading, trying to learn everything and comparing the bikes so I can make a well informed purchase. At the time Zero was just getting started and Brammo had the Empulse prototype. So for two years like everyone I followed and watched closely. I wasn't tmpressed with the style of the Zero. Within this time frame I saw the Zero DS at Riva Motorsports in Pompano Beach, FL and thought it kind of looked cheap. Compound that with the fact that two years later the 2012 Zero had its fair share of problems. So for me, at the time, comparing the Zero vs Brammo, Brammo had a good, solid, legit look where the Zero fell short. The Brammo offered top shelf components and L2 charging and the Zero didn't. So the style of the Empulse, the top shelf components, L2 charging and a racing heritage is what sealed it for me. In the end it's about being satisfied. I've had no problems with my 2013 Empulse R and it has lived up to my full expectations.
Regarding the deal with Polaris, It's not like this buy out/take over/partnership was unexpected, at least not to me... Once the big money was flowing this deal was going to happen and in my mind strengthens my decision to choose Brammo over Zero.
Of course I wish the recent dealership issue gets resolved quickly and hopefully I can go to the closest Victory/Indian dealership 10 miles away instead of a 50 mile hike into Miami crazy town...
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For my own part, when I'm approached in the wild about my bike I make sure that the person asking the questions knows about both Brammo and Zero and has a good handle on why the bikes from either brand may or may not meet their needs, focusing first and primarily on what is good about each. The popularity is still so thin that advancing a personal opinion can only have the potential to drive away sales and support for the industry. Even for some of the more esoteric brands that have either not shipped yet or that I've only seen a report of 1 or 2 sales, I point out the promise they will bring without taking away from what that person could get that afternoon by visiting one of a couple of local dealers.
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Lawd help me, I felt the need to actually register to this group to respond to this thread.
Well, Ted, I'm not sure why you would need the Lord's help to participate with us, but don't worry, we let just about anybody play here. ;)
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Timelines ... well how important is the present. 2 problems with my newly purchased Empulse resulting immediate attention and technical service quality. Admittedly I'm hoping to kit oil leak, but that is coming. If anyone doubts this with polaris, as an example here.
Never He has conducted another brand directly to me. both technical Brammo in Spain, such as technical service from USA. And I have to say I do not call to them.
I do not understand that every year a model has to have modifications, contrary to my big brands, design and build legendary models, and are those that remain and give you reputation. Examples: Triumph, BMW, Harley Davinson, Moto Guzzi. Brammo Empulse and I'm sure you enter in this club.
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Well, Ted, I'm not sure why you would need the Lord's help to participate with us, but don't worry, we let just about anybody play here. ;)
Thanks! I do read this group a lot, but haven't joined because, well, I'm not a Brammo owner. ;D I saw you let the likes of Ben in here though, and figured I was good... ;)
For the record, I've also been characterized as a transmission hater as well, (I believe the term used here was that I "poo-pooed" transmissions). The fact of the matter is that after tossing the concept around for several years, I suspect a small two-speed, much like a dual-range gearbox that some bikes run, would be really practical and workable. Unfortunately, that kind of thing is near-impossible for a builder like me, and about the last thing I'd do is go with a six-speed, and that conclusion is based on some really solid physics and modeling, and born out by rider reports. Thus, I'm not a fan of the Empulse from that standpoint. Do I hate the Empulse because of the tranny? That'd be silly.
After riding the Energica EGO, enjoying the huge performance and loving the lack of shifting, I'm honestly still not convinced even the little dual range would be a good thing.
However, and here's the point, I respect that a lot of folks like the tranny and clutch, and want it. One of my concerns with this Polaris deal is if they'll keep the SMRE motor/tranny, and if they don't, there are going to be a bunch of sad riders. It'd be a shame to see the tech so limited so early on in the development of electric motorcycles.
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I know this topic kinda ran its course, but I do want to flag this article, because it is exactly the kind of smack talk I've heard from Zero reps before. I don't think it's malicious, dude's obviously proud of his products, but it just so happened I ran across it:
"Q: Zero’s motto is “Sophisticated Simplicity.” Are you concerned about being upstaged by your more high-tech rivals?
A: Not really. The Brammo Empulse, for example, with its liquid-cooling and six-speed gearbox, their execution left a lot to be desired. You could maybe make an argument for a high and low gear, but if you rode the bike, you could put it any gear and it behaved the same except immediately off the line. Their design was clunky and had a lot of gear-lash noise. And now you’ve got coolant, transmission fluid, clutch plates, etc."
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/)
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Well, Scot Harden is Zero's V.P. of "Global Marketing". If you are looking for lots of fluff and hot air, just head for any company's marketing department. ;)
You won't hear that kind of talk from Zero's line employees or engineers.
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I know this topic kinda ran its course, but I do want to flag this article, because it is exactly the kind of smack talk I've heard from Zero reps before. I don't think it's malicious, dude's obviously proud of his products, but it just so happened I ran across it:
"Q: Zero’s motto is “Sophisticated Simplicity.” Are you concerned about being upstaged by your more high-tech rivals?
A: Not really. The Brammo Empulse, for example, with its liquid-cooling and six-speed gearbox, their execution left a lot to be desired. You could maybe make an argument for a high and low gear, but if you rode the bike, you could put it any gear and it behaved the same except immediately off the line. Their design was clunky and had a lot of gear-lash noise. And now you’ve got coolant, transmission fluid, clutch plates, etc."
http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/03/cw-interview-scot-harden-vp-of-global-marketing-zero-electric-motorcycles/)
I wouldn't call that "smack talk". Many of the Empulse reviews have said the exact same thing. From the Brammo side you hear a lot of talk about higher end components and much better charging setup than the zero. It's all marketing. Not much difference from Ford versus Chevy.
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Neither would I. Legitimate points, from where I sit, and yes, points repeated in independent reviews.
Rather than getting defensive and tagging it "smack talk", why not call it what it is? Another valid opinion? Does it really have any impact on your enjoyment of your motorcycle?
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Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.
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Neither would I. Legitimate points, from where I sit, and yes, points repeated in independent reviews.
Rather than getting defensive and tagging it "smack talk", why not call it what it is? Another valid opinion? Does it really have any impact on your enjoyment of your motorcycle?
Good point...
This review does a good job of making valid points on both sides
http://youtu.be/akgNW74qOYo (http://youtu.be/akgNW74qOYo)
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Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.
Are we reading the same thing? I read a story you linked that had a quote in an interview with the VP of Marketing at Zero, responding to a direct question about his product's tech vs the Brammo tech. I'd even characterize the question as baiting.
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I just want to add a thought that I had this morning. I ride what can be best called a "cult bike" for my gas ride. It's a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 - a single cylinder naked bike with only a kick starter. I bought it new because it is simply perfect (in my opinion ::)) ...and I've never even considered another bike, after 30 years of buying bikes.
I'm on the fringe of the fringe. I don't fit in with the Harley crowd, though I joke I run "half a Harley". The crotch-rocket guys laugh at me, the anti-Jap bikers make fun, even the cafe guys joke that it's not properly British and doesn't leak enough oil. Do I give a crap? Does it look like it?
You guys are on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe. Not only are you riding a motorcycle, you're riding an electric one, and a specific brand and design that's unique. Like my big thumper, some people are going to be amazed and love it. Are people going to dump on it, and even make fun of it? Is some of that going to come from even the electric motorcycle community? There's no doubt.
Get over it. Seriously.
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Like I said, it's not a big deal at the end of the day, but I do find it interesting that a Zero rep would start putting down a competitor's product unprompted like that. I've followed bikes long enough and met enough reps, and I can't say I've seen other guys do it...maybe ever. It certainly has no impact on my enjoyment, just ran across and wanted to flag it because I thought it was relevant to the topic.
Are we reading the same thing? I read a story you linked that had a quote in an interview with the VP of Marketing at Zero, responding to a direct question about his product's tech vs the Brammo tech. I'd even characterize the question as baiting.
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I just want to add a thought that I had this morning. I ride what can be best called a "cult bike" for my gas ride. It's a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 - a single cylinder naked bike with only a kick starter. I bought it new because it is simply perfect (in my opinion ::)) ...and I've never even considered another bike, after 30 years of buying bikes.
I'm on the fringe of the fringe. I don't fit in with the Harley crowd, though I joke I run "half a Harley". The crotch-rocket guys laugh at me, the anti-Jap bikers make fun, even the cafe guys joke that it's not properly British and doesn't leak enough oil. Do I give a crap? Does it look like it?
You guys are on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe. Not only are you riding a motorcycle, you're riding an electric one, and a specific brand and design that's unique. Like my big thumper, some people are going to be amazed and love it. Are people going to dump on it, and even make fun of it? Is some of that going to come from even the electric motorcycle community? There's no doubt.
Get over it. Seriously.
You sir are making a mountain out of a molehill, perhaps you shouldn't make things so personal. Good day!
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Sorry you feel that way. (...and yes, I did see your original response, suggesting I was not impartial.) It's nothing I wouldn't say to anybody, to their face, who is wringing their hands and asking "why do they hate us?". Any bike owner, any time, any place. In person or online. It's also, by the way, the reaction of several friends I've showed the thread to - both EV owners and not, and some very active in this group.
Is it personal? No way, but yet another example of me not onboard with the Brammo owner's perspective, calling it as I see it, and being called out as being a hater or, in this case, "getting personal".
You asked a question, and I've tried to give you a perspective of a lifelong rider from "outside" the Brammo "camp". I've tried to do it with respect.
I think I'm done here.
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Bikes = Emotions
That's my explanation
I love my Empulse, but if I would have bought a Zero I am sure that I would love that one just as much.
It's probably the Endowment Effect...
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I take Dillard's point to be something like -- the courage required to ride a fringe bike is a reward in and of itself. I've owned a few Moto Guzzi's, and so obviously I get off on that to some extent. But I think there's a bigger picture point, which is to resist getting worked up about what anyone says on the internet. About anything!
In real life, nobody ever "makes fun of" or "dumps" on my Empulse. I get nothing but ego-pumping feedback on it. More, really, than I could ever have wanted, as in, hey, I'd love to chat more about my stunning electric bike, but I gotta hit the road!
I'm sorry to see Dillard go, if in fact he is done here. He's a careful thinker who brings a useful perspective informed by experience. On the other hand, why anyone would think this thread was in reference to them, and join the forum just to rebut it, is beyond me. Joining a forum on a personal vendetta (real or imagine) is not a good way to start.
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This! ^^
OTHO, if everybody resisted getting worked up over internet posts, why 90% of YouTube comments would just evaporate! And all we'd be left with is reasoned discourse. >:(
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This! ^^
OTHO, if everybody resisted getting worked up over internet posts, why 90% of YouTube comments would just evaporate! And all we'd be left with is reasoned discourse. >:(
To be fair, I'm not sure if anyone would complain if 90% of Youtube comments went away... Anyway, I'm not here to get into a personal pissing match with Ted or anyone else. Just curious to where the fissure between various electric "camps" came from. I mean, I know why you'd make fun of Harley's for example, I do it all the time! In any case, this thread was actually really informative....until it wasn't :P
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At least initially, and at many times through this thread's life cycle, the question wasn't "why are we so horrible that people hate us, I want to crawl under a rock". It was more "I've noticed this happening, it's odd, I'm wondering why it is". It is and was a question about anthropology, not a plea for support. Most of us here aren't worked up just because we notice and discuss a phenomenon. And I think the replies that showed the timeline of the announcement and delivery of the Empulse and how customers and industry players perceived those events are the most on point for what the original question was.
The word "hate" in the title may be a bit extreme, but the first post mentioned more specific behaviors and was more about asking what the back story was than a call for emotional support or response...
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On the other hand, why anyone would think this thread was in reference to them, and join the forum just to rebut it, is beyond me. Joining a forum on a personal vendetta (real or imagine) is not a good way to start.
Thanks for the kind words, and I'm pleased to hear you appreciate the perspective.
I do want to clarify, and reading back I realized I didn't really tie this example up, but where I said "So at the outset, I feel like, because of several occasions where I call it as I see it, people who don't want to see the facts for what they are, call me a "hater"." I really was trying to simply make an example from what I've experienced.
I certainly didn't think the thread was about me... I don't much care about rebutting anything and certainly don't have any vendettas going. Who has time for that? :o (...but wait. Does that make this a rebuttal? :o)
I've seen several instances of Brammo "fanboys" over the several years of Brammo development (and I'm not pointing any fingers at here, and I'm pretty sure y'all would call them the same thing) doing just that. It seems like a clear "us" and "them" culture, and I can't explain it beyond what I've already tried to do.
On the other stuff, you got my intent dead nuts on the money.
Gotta go work now. ::)
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At least initially, and at many times through this thread's life cycle, the question wasn't "why are we so horrible that people hate us, I want to crawl under a rock". It was more "I've noticed this happening, it's odd, I'm wondering why it is". It is and was a question about anthropology, not a plea for support. Most of us here aren't worked up just because we notice and discuss a phenomenon. And I think the replies that showed the timeline of the announcement and delivery of the Empulse and how customers and industry players perceived those events are the most on point for what the original question was.
The word "hate" in the title may be a bit extreme, but the first post mentioned more specific behaviors and was more about asking what the back story was than a call for emotional support or response...
Bingo. That was always my intention at least.
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I've seen several instances of Brammo "fanboys" over the several years of Brammo development (and I'm not pointing any fingers at here, and I'm pretty sure y'all would call them the same thing) doing just that. It seems like a clear "us" and "them" culture, and I can't explain it beyond what I've already tried to do.
I just KNEW your finger was pointing at me, Ted! I actually was called a fanboy by you: (Last edited by teddillard; 01 March 2013 at 1539). Question: I'm not clear what "that" refers to at the end of your first sentence above.
I'm glad we can clear this up. The original discussion occurred in this thread:
http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html (http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html)
Several folks had made what seemed to me to be unsubstantiated assertions about the Empulse's transmission and its number of gears. I weighed in based solely on my experience (1800 miles then, 23K miles now) of actually riding it in San Francisco traffic and freeways.
Admittedly I was becoming somewhat irked by the dismissive tone of such comments as:
"100% unsubstantiated BS... Ridicules [sic] statement!"
and even ad hominem attacks:
"Really... Even more BS! I don't have the energy to debate all your points- on your level."
So I responded with some verbal jousts:
"Wow how many armchair engineers here that have never ridden the Empulse? Yes, if you actually test ride one for more than 5 minutes, you will surely experience the utility of the transmission and the appropriateness of a 6-speed one to keep the motor in either the sweet spot for economy (5000 rpm) or for power (6000 or 7000 rpm for Sport mode and Normal mode. [ed: early data, since corrected to 5000 rpm for both economy and power] Or you could remain at your computers and sling BS at a sweet motorcycle design. Whatever floats your boat."
When I tried to steer the discussion away from theory and make points based on practice, that's when you, Ted, labeled me a fanboy. I suppose I'm guilty: I really like the transmission and I really like the Empulse. But I'm not JUST a pretty face: I was actually making some assertions based on my everyday riding experience and felt that such an approach was dismissed, principally because it was about an Empulse and not a more favored brand. Or because my actual experience with the bike didn't match up with how ElMoto designers thought it SHOULD behave.
But maybe my skin was just too thin! In general, I avoid cliques, so my getting "caught up" is probably out of character. I remember being frustrated back then that so many press write-ups of the Empulse seemed to miss the essence of the whole riding experience that so attracted me the first time on it. And every time since.
I'm truly sorry if my reaction contributed to the "hate" rap. I applaud you for coming here and am grateful for the opportunity it affords to straighten out this history between us. And I actually have returned to ElMoto now and again to make more civil contributions. I've also read several items on your blog, enough to realize that there is definitely more to you than that red devil face you posted about me being a fanboy that dared to enter ElMoto 4.0! ;)
Also, I have less need to be right these days. I wag more and bark less.
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"...doing just that" = "people who don't want to see the facts for what they are, call me a "hater"."
Please re-read my post here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=2898.msg21395#msg21395 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=2898.msg21395#msg21395)
"- but after discussing stuff like transmissions for fully 5 years, with some very knowledgeable engineers contributing, to have an Empulse owner get on with little or no knowledge of the physics and simply parrot what Brammo was touting rubbed a lot of people the wrong way."
Subjective accounts without hard data was completely counter-productive to what we were trying to accomplish. And 5 years of "verbal jousting" gets a little old, especially when someone in your position could have called up Richard and run some numbers. :P
(Of course, the server is down again, so I can't see that link, but thanks for posting it. I'd tried to find it to post it here.)
edit: Perfect example. The post you were responding to was by a guy who is one of the foremost bike and powertrain designers and engineers on the planet. You'd know him by name. His forum style leaves a lot to be desired, and he came close to being banned, but if you don't pay attention to what he's saying you're going to be missing some brilliant engineering experience. Of course, you wouldn't know this if you weren't privvy to several years of his posts (and substantiated it by doing an IP search as a moderator). He also does seem to have a very personal beef with Brammo, and I can only guess why that is. At one point he gave me some very nasty information about Brammo and told me I should post it on the forum, and I told him to stop being a bitch and post it himself if he believed it was true. He didn't.
Three other of the responders were some pretty respectable talents in their own rights. Nuts and Volts is one of the builders of the first Ohio State Buckeye Current IOM bike. So right off, you're strolling into a party where some of the top engineering talent on the forum (really, in the world) is chatting away, and you decided to come out swinging in your very first sentence. Every one of the guys who you called "armchair engineers" have built several bikes each. They've all built bikes that are 120mph+, too. These are garage built bikes that can smoke both an Empulse and a '14 Zero SR.
Here, for the record, is my response to your post: http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html#post35882 (http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html#post35882) "liked" by ElmotoMaster - Mike, the owner of the forum.
Here also is "mechanic"s response with some very solid engineering information: http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html#post35888 (http://elmoto.net/brammo/2835-city-bike-reviews-empulse-2.html#post35888) Seriously, if you knew who he was, you'd lock yourself in the closet crying. :D
Keep in mind, that entire thread, and the one here as well, was spawned by a review where the writer had the nerve to find fault with Brammo's precious transmission. It was joined by two relative newcomers, you and flar, both Empulse owners and not builders or engineers.
So, yeah. Have I cleared that up? 8)
Speaking of the thread here, this post, by the way, astounded me, in that it was coming from one of the top management of Brammo:
I think elmoto is more of a home for diy builders at this point. Zero owners seem to have adopted electricmotorcycleforum.com as their go to the forum and other diyers collect on endlesssphere.com too.
I'm just glad that this remains the fortress of solitude for Brammo owners.
Agreed. I really appreciate the opinions and constructive debate that takes place on this forum. I noticed the attempts to recover the conversation over on the elmoto forum, but I'm afraid that they are too far gone... we must leave them behind to slave in their garages and curse every idea that is not their own. It was obvious that the better the Empulse turned out to be, the more angry they would become. So... I'm glad they're pissed.
Really? How can Brammo (and yes, Brian equates to Brammo - he can't have it both ways, though he's tried to for years now) make a post like this and not piss people off? Even after a nice, civil email exchange (we've been exchanging emails for years), I pretty much resigned myself to being labeled a "hater" by them.
What Brian conveniently forgets to mention was the days back when he was getting some great advice and feedback from those angry garage builders - a few of them still in the group in that very thread. ;D
As long as I keep getting sucked back on this thread, I'll add I think a lot of the "us vs them" mentality at Brammo comes also from the racing efforts. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of racing, and I've seen it in both the fanboy posts as well as in Brian's posts. I think it's impossible to leave the competition at the track, and in the case of the fans, some of the most amazingly ignorant and offensive crap is posted discussing the tech and brand once it's "your team", as well as "your brand".
I also have read repeated statements about how racing has helped the development of the tech. I'd like some hard examples of that. The 2014 Zero SR, and now the 2015 is arguably fully on par with the tech of the Empulse, and fully on par from a performance standpoint with no company racing program, and Brammo has not offered any upgrades in the Empulse for two years now. Where's all that drivetrain R/D going?
Please don't come out of the gate swinging in response to this, just give me some facts I can believe.
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...and now I think I'll cut and paste this entire thread for IEVs, in response to my editor saying "WTF have you been doing and why don't we have any stories from you?" :D :D :D
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MORE smack-talk by Zero execs ("reps"):
http://insideevs.com/zero-welcomes-harley-polaris-electric-motorcycle-market-wvideo/ (http://insideevs.com/zero-welcomes-harley-polaris-electric-motorcycle-market-wvideo/)
...oh wait. No. :P
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I am a fan of electric motorcycles...Zeros, Brammos, conversions, prototypes, or whatever...and I love racing.
As far as racing improving the breed...with first hand experience, I can say the Brammo racing program has directly influenced a Parker built motor with different windings, that is faster and more energy efficient than the earlier version.
This is not the only item, merely an example to share a specific instance where Brammo has made improvements in the past 2 years.
This newer motor works better with the standard Sevcon controller than the earlier motor, and is standard in the most recent Empulse Rs.
The Zero racebikes on the FIM grid of 2013 were testing technologies, witness the presence and involvement of several of their engineers. We expect to welcome more Zeros in the eMotoRacing series in 2015.
Quite a few more university prototypes are also on the horizon.
Everyone is working to improve their bikes...Brammo, Virginia Tech, Zero, Kennesaw State, etc, and privateers like myself. Just because strategies vary doesn't mean nothing is happening.
Lets support each other, advance the technologies, and make the bikes and the sport better.
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To be clear: to my knowledge, Zero has not fielded a "factory" race team, as Brammo has, for since 2010. Is that correct?
Also, I really don't want to start a "racing improves the breed" discussion here - it's as old as debate as the first guy who raced whatever-had-a-motor-in-it trying to get his wife to let him do it again. :D I for one find it refreshing when Brian gets on and says "...and because it's fun and I like it" - as you did, Arthur.
...just looking for specifics. And thanks for that one.
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To be clear: to my knowledge, Zero has not fielded a "factory" race team, as Brammo has, for since 2010. Is that correct?
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ttxgp/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ttxgp/)
Zero officially sponsored the 2012 S streetbikes in eSuperStock, as well as both a factory team and the K Squared privateer team in 2010.
And while Zero did not officially field a factory team in 2013, Kenyon Kluge (Zero's director of EE) was riding a 2014 SR prototype at Indy eGrandPrix 2013. That might not quite be a factory race team, but it's a level of access that an unaffiliated privateer team likely would not have.
Zero has also used Laguna Seca Refuel to test drivetrain prototypes for the next year's production bikes; at least in 2011 (testing the 2012 AC motor), 2012 (testing the 2013 100V powertrain and ZF motors), 2013 (testing the size 6).
What they haven't done is a field a megabuck prototype or hire professional racers.
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Thanks. That's pretty much what I understood to be the case, though I wonder what exactly "...Zero Motorcycles was the first manufacturer to enter... " means.
What they haven't done is a field a megabuck prototype or hire professional racers.
...or have Zero Girls. ::)
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The bikes Brammo built for racing don't use gearboxes.
Don't think for a minute that if Brian had the resources he wouldn't put a transmission on the RR. ;)
I have had the privilege of talking to Brian quite a bit in 2012 and 2013 when I started my blog and podcast. And most of those conversations are recorded and ready for listening or downloading. I see a lot of "Marketing" references to Brammo's transmission. I cannot speak for the rest of Brammo but I say with confidence that Brian doesn't feel that way at all. They put a transmission on there for a reason. And there is also a reason it is 6 speeds and not 3. Reasons I am just plumb tired of saying. But Brammo is not the only elmoto with a transmission, nor are they the ones who came up with it. I think it relates a whole lot more to their racing focus than anything. But I remember the early day of EV conversions and people keeping the transmissions in their project cars, back before we had all this power available. But lets look at what's going in Forumla-e. Oh what? Electric race cars with 5 speed transmissions? What? What's next same sex marriage? Oh, wait . . .
As far as Brammo hate, I think the whole late production thing really hurt them, as Protomech pointed out. Also pride and passion. But I kind of wonder, Brammo has had this big racing effort and cool prototype bikes, and Zero has Kenyon Kluge and some hard core engineers that they occasionally get thrown a bone (also recorded conversations in podcast form). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
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Since, as a rule, women hear higher frequencies better than men, and since, as a rule, younger women hear better than older women, it stands to reason that if you are a heterosexual male on the prowl, you're way better off on an Empulse than a Harley. Just sayin'...
I just starting reading this thread and laughed very hard at this. I'm currently in a board meeting, I'm noticeably chuckling to myself, and my eyes are squeezed shut. Someone at the table just asked me a question and I'm clearly not paying any attention.
So... now I'm embarrassed and in trouble. Still, this comment was worth it ;]