Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Enertia Discussion => Brammo Enertia Plus => Topic started by: Gavin on October 26, 2010, 11:45:18 AM
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Ok, yes I know the Enertia Plus isn't even here yet...Heck not even here for test rides let alone to actually purchase. And already making suggestions is kinda rude...
But I'm a computer guy, so I am always thinking about the next version.
Plus Brammo themselves have said that the Enertia Plus was made to address customer suggestions and concerns about the original Enertia. So Brammo themselves kinda admit to wanting us to bug them to help perfect their machine :)
So what would you suggest to Brammo for their next version?
More range is always nice, and the battery tech will keep improving and actually decreasing in price..yea!...but what I would do is.
1). Add the Empulse radiator to the Enertia Plus. The radiator is actually quite small and wouldn't interfere too much with the Enertia lines. This would allow Brammo to eliminate the rear fan, or keep the fan, but have the set up so the fan is never on except at extreme cruising speed.
This would also allow Brammo to set up the Enertia Plus so it never goes into safety mode so you aren't have to limp down the highway at reduced speeds.
2) Increase top speed from 60+ to 70mph. Yes the Enertia is a commuter bike. Yes all commuter bikes have limitations. But the reality is some commutes (even fairly short ones) are at highway speeds. Having a bike that goes 60 already takes you beyond just city streets riding...might as well go a bit more and make the ride perfect for the city streets, but also quite useful and near perfect for short highway jaunts too (right now the Enertia plus is perfect for city streets and doable for short highway jaunts.)
3) O-Chain...(gonna show that bike my O-Chain face.... :) ). Longer wear, less stretching, LESS MAINTENANCE. The last is key for two reasons...One, everybody loves less busy work...and oiling the chain every 200 miles is busy work. Two, Brammo wants to appeal to a wider range of riders...and beginning riders or new riders are less likely to be wrenchers who like to tinker on their rides constantly. (plus I wear dress clothes to work...one big reason I ride scooters...I don't want oil and grease on my clothes everyday.)
4)and this is a very debatable point, but relates back to Brammo going after new riders, novice riders and also the female market (and female does not equal novice...many female riders are way WAY beyond me in riding and wrenching).
Rear Brake...Left hand or right foot? If Brammo wants to get the new riders that might get a twist and go scooter, or have a current twist and go scooter rider move up to an Enertia...well perhaps the rear brake should be similar to every current twist and go scooter, which is up on the left handlebar.
Now this is debatable as motorcycle riders are used to a foot rear brake. Scooter riders are likely use to a left hand rear brake. And some, like me, have both (my 2 stroke is geared, so left hand is clutch, right foot is rear brake, and my big scooter is a cvt so rear brake is left hand.) Going back and forth is no problem, but should Brammo offer the Enertia as a scooter replacement or substitute, thus rear brake on the left handlebar? Or as a motorcycle replacement or substiture, thus rear brake on the right foot? Or should they offer it as both ways (probably a bit complicated).
I hate to admit that for me it is partially aesthetic...I love the Honda supercub...except I hate seeing the left handbar empty. Motorcycles have the clutch on the left handlebar. Scooters have a brake on the left handlebar. Only the supercub has the left handlebar empty (and supercub clones like the Symba)...I just semi-dislike the left handlebar empty...it just doesn't look...complete??
Anyways, 4 is not a deal-breaker...heck none are deal-breakers as I plan to buy an Enertia Plus version 1 the day they come out :)
5)...Move rear light to back of rear bracket. Make rear bracket sturdy and usable for some items (small rack)...or extend rear seat.
Any others
Gavin
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I was nodding mildly at 1-3 (sure, radiator might be nice, top speed up to 70, uh-huh, and O-ring chain, yep) but #4, I'm going to disagree. I don't need the aesthetic, don't use the rear brake much, and it would confuse the many motorcycle riders who might pull it hard, thinking it was a clutch.
But #5 - move light to back of rear bracket... YES. I've been thinking about how I might mount it to the bottom of the rear bracket for weeks. I'm more of a duct-tape and coat-hanger-wire fabricator than a smooth lines kind of guy, so I'm hoping someone else comes up with a usable easy-to-install alternative. The light, I think, needs to be on the underneath side of that bracket to allow for the installation of a rack which would allow room to bungie cord things to it.
Thanks for starting this thread, Gavin.
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:)
You're welcome...
Yeah, I know #4 is debatable. But I have yet to grab the rear brake on my bigger bike like it is a clutch. Though when I was young I never drove an automatic car for many years...when we had our children and my wife bought a mini van, well at least twice I hit the brakes with my left foot going for the clutch...now that is one way to get every-bodies attention in the car :) .
I do wonder, will more people be coming to the Enertia Plus from the motorcycle world, the scooter world, or the bicycle world. All bicycle riders are very use to the brakes being on the handlebars. (something to think about if Brammo is going hard after 1st time riders. Do you treat first time riders like scooter riders or bicycle riders..of course maybe first time riders should just learn to ride like it is a motorcycle?)
Gavin
and yes, the rear light at the back of the rear bracket is a no brainer...a flat surface and a couple of bungee cords = fun fun fun (make sure the bracket is strong enough for a 12 pack :) )
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I don't think they should need to worry about people accidentally braking with a lever on the left handlebar. First of all this would typically only apply to a motorcycle rider riding for the first day or two, and I seem to recall hearing that some bikes used have different controls anyhow (Harley?). Second, look at the times when the rider would pull the clutch lever: shifting or stopping. I can't picture anything on an Enertia giving you the impression it needs to shift, and if stopping pulling the rear brake lever a little harder shouldn't be a huge issue, especially since a rider would only lock it once before learning to actually pay attention.
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#1 for CERTAIN and probably #3 as well. I REALLY want that fan to go away or get one that makes less noise. Other e-bikes have fans that are much quieter.
And less chain maintenance would be good too so if the O-chain works to that end then I'm for it.
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A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.
Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.
I don't mind if the fan comes on when I am hitting the highway or even some of our city streets that are long and 50 mph roads. But I don't like the idea of the fan running if I'm puttering about campus. A quiet electric powercycle is less "sexy" when it sounds like an xbox 360 overheating.
Also, if the fan comes on, does it go off fairly fast when you slow down, or does it stay on for some time?
Thanks
Gavin
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A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.
Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.
Maybe as it depends on a few factors. The fan does not come on in cool weather (45F or less) for me at all. I do very little city riding only, but I also do not remember the fan coming on for trips with many starts and stops and generally in the 25 - 35 mph speed range.
In the summer, the fan would come on at nearly the exact same place in my commute; at the bottom of a big hill, which is about seven miles into my ten mile commute.
Rider weight may also be a factor.
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I don't think they should need to worry about people accidentally braking with a lever on the left handlebar. First of all this would typically only apply to a motorcycle rider riding for the first day or two, and I seem to recall hearing that some bikes used have different controls anyhow (Harley?). Second, look at the times when the rider would pull the clutch lever: shifting or stopping. I can't picture anything on an Enertia giving you the impression it needs to shift, and if stopping pulling the rear brake lever a little harder shouldn't be a huge issue, especially since a rider would only lock it once before learning to actually pay attention.
While I agree that a converted motorcycle rider would adjust to the rear brake within a day or so, someone who rides both ICE motorcycles and electric ones will probably never lose the instinct of the clutch; therefore, I disagree with the rear brake on left handlebar because of a panic stop. Years ago I was driving a manual transmission car on a daily basis and had to drive the parents automatic for 2 days while mine was in the shop. Although I had been driving the automatic for a day and a half without issue, when a car pulled out in front of me my instinct was to push the clutch in and hit the brakes. As my right foot hit the brakes my left foot slammed the non-existent clutch to the floor. In doing so, my left foot caught the edge of the brake pedal, slammed it to the floor and locked up the brakes almost causing a crash. It was a good thing I had my seat belt on, or I would have smacked the windshield!
Now I don't have a scooter but I do have an ATV with thumb throttle and left hand rear brake and never have any problems, but in that rare instance when you have a panic stop and don't have time to think, instincts take over and I'd hate to clamp down on the rear brake expecting to pull in a clutch. Keeping the rear brake on the right foot will help the motorcyclists and probably not hurt the scooter riders since most of the braking is done with the front brake anyway. The front brake on the Enertia should be more than enough to stop it and if you're at the front brake limit and need the rear brake to stop in time, then you're probably about to lift the rear wheel of the pavement where the rear brake won't do any good anyway.
Just my 2 cents
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Mmmm, well almost all my friends have both scooters and motorcycles...and often many different types. It seems almost all of the rides have different set ups.
I have one scooter with a clutch on the left handlebar and a brake on the right handlebar and the rear brake on the floorboard. My other scooter is a CVT and has brakes on both right and left handlebar and nothing for my feet to do.
And I have the fewest bikes of all my friends. Some have clutch scooters and CVT scooters and motorcycles and supercubs (empty left hand).
Going from bike to bike is actually quite simple. But then having bicycle riders learn to use a foot brake is easy too....so any approach is likely ok...
If they keep the foot brake, cvt scooter riders and bicycle riders will learn.
If they put the rear brake on the handle, I'm sure the motorcycle riders will be fine...actually I know they will be fine as, once again, all my motorcycle friends also ride scooters and go back an forth quite easily.
A lot will depend on whether Brammo is going for Motorcycle riders or bicycle riders.
Again, they could easily make both styles, but it could add some complexity in production
Gavin
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A question for Brammofan then...and other Enertia owners.
Does the fan come on during city commuting? Say 10 miles of stop and start...top speed of 40 mph.
I don't mind if the fan comes on when I am hitting the highway or even some of our city streets that are long and 50 mph roads. But I don't like the idea of the fan running if I'm puttering about campus. A quiet electric powercycle is less "sexy" when it sounds like an xbox 360 overheating.
Also, if the fan comes on, does it go off fairly fast when you slow down, or does it stay on for some time?
Thanks
Gavin
My fan comes one at a motor temp of 150 or 160 and turns off once it has dropped (not sure of exact threshold but 140 for sure). If you aren't riding full throttle it shouldn't be an issue at all unless you're in rather hot weather. Even in 90 degree weather I my fan only starts up on a steep hill (steep enough that I have to drop into 1st gear on my bicycle.
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I don't have an Enertia, but I've been around many of them and the fan has been on all the time the bike was on regardless of day or night or if they had been driven a long or short distance. The fan was always on. And this was on four different Enertias.
I'm not suggesting that others do not have different experiences, which would be more valid than my few instances, but the fan noise was noticed and made it hard to have a conversation standing next to the bike.
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Part of the reason I started this thread is because of a twitter conversation between BrammoCraig and Motoette...
@BrammoCraig I think u need to take a closer look at targeting women riders & talk to Jessica Procup of the #Motorcycle Industry Coucil!
@Motoette I agree 100% would love to hear what you think we need to do to achieve that
This is one of the reasons I mentioned having the brakes like both scooters and bicycles. More women ride scooters (at least around here...college towns see more woman on scooters than motorcycles) and many more women ride bicycles. So making the ride similar to what they are used to makes some sense.
I see three things that could help sell to both women and novice riders...1 easy, 2 harder.
1. Sell it, or a version of it, that has the brakes like a bicycle does.
That is the easy one.
2. Seat height. Almost every woman rider I know would like the seat lower. This is likely hardest to do as the bike is already done. But this is often a huge issue for women who are shorter than men on average.
3. In the very good post from FrankH (Re: Hi from Amsterdam (NL), Frank mentions his Suzuki and one of the reasons he likes it...the Shaft Drive. One reason novice riders like scooters is the simplicity....and the Enertia has that in spades. Simple to drive. Few parts to break. Etc Etc. The other reason is the enclosed engine. No parts to get tangled in, no grease or oil to spray on you (though my 2 stroke is dirty, it is all out of sight).
I mentioned going to an O-ring chain...and it is a good thing...less maintenance. Less oiling. Well going to a Shaft drive would be NO maintenance and No oiling. So that is even better. But again, that would be a huge change and a huge expense. Not sure it is worth it, but it would make the bike one step friendlier to novice riders.
The other two main reasons some like scooters...storage...and not straddling an engine.
I ride in work clothes everyday. One of the reasons I picked a scooter in the first place is because straddling a dirty engine in khakis seemed stupid. Luckily straddling the Enertia isn't an issue as the "engine" is a nice clean battery. Still straddling is an issue if you are short. Again this is an issue more for women than men.
As for wanting that extra 5 miles per hour or more...sadly that is a 2 wheeler sickness. :) No matter what you ride you always want a bit more. So it comes down to finding the right balance. Sure if I can go 70 on the Plus I will wish I could go 75, but on balance 75 isn't really needed for this bike. But even for commuting you might need to go 65 at times, so having a few miles per hour buffer is actually, on balance, a good thing. It keeps you safer.
Anyways...long story short...
I'm fine with how the brakes are...but if Brammo wants to appeal even more to first time riders, they may want to consider a bicycle type set up.
I'm fine with the top speed being 60plus, but would love it to be closer to 70.
I would love the O-chain, heck even as an added cost option. Shaft Drive? Would be nice, but for an "in the future" model. Maybe the anti-scooter? Chains are work and messy...novice riders would likely not miss them at all :)
Fan...Not a killer, but fan noise in city riding is borderline unacceptable. Selling the ride as clean and quiet is hurt by a loud whirling fan. So finding a why to either eliminate it or making it whisper quiet would be key.
Rear light and bracket...No brainer, cheap and easy way to improve the utility of the bike. Move the light to the back end and strengthen the bracket and suddenly you have a place to bungee a book-bag or other light items.
Seat height / leg over height....tough one, but if you want to appeal to more women, making both as low as possible is a good thing. Not sure how, or if, you address this...maybe again that is the job of the anti-scooter??
Gavin
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Quick answer on the fan - In stop and go traffic on my normal commute, it rarely comes on until this one stretch (slight uphill) where I have to go at least 50mph to stay with the flow (even though the posted speed limit is 45). That stretch occurs at about mile 9 of my 11 mile ride into work. Once "on", it stays on until I park it. The only time I recall it turning off after it went on was when I was stuck in a traffic jam, creeping up foot by foot. I think it shut down when the motor temp was down to 120... but I'm not sure.
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ps...also...just my thoughts...Brammo is making great "powercycles" without my imput...so they seem to know what they are doing :)
and I could easily be wrong on any or all points
Gavin
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Frankly having the rear brake on foot or handlebar isn't likely to have much impact on sales/marketing.
Not sure why you still think the fan is coming in during normal city driving, unless you consider 45mph+ as "city".
Brammofan -- check with Jenn as your fan shouldn't be on at motor temp 120F.
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Not sure why you still think the fan is coming in during normal city driving, unless you consider 45mph+ as "city".
Going by Kelly's observations
I don't have an Enertia, but I've been around many of them and the fan has been on all the time the bike was on regardless of day or night or if they had been driven a long or short distance. The fan was always on. And this was on four different Enertias.
And most of my riding is under 40mph, but yes Albuquerque has many city streets that are 45 mph, and some (Tramway, Coors, Paseo del Norte) that are 50-55mph...and that doesn't include I-40 and 1-25 that bisect the city and are used as city roads (65mph).
Still I hope the bikes Kelly has heard have just been going WOT and are not the norm.
Gavin
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Lowering the seat height for women won't work for me at 6 feet four inches. I think that they have lowered the seat on the Plus. Not certain but it looks like it from the pictures. The first Enertia was at a perfect height for me. This new one looks like I'm going to be bending my legs a bit more. Might have to build up the seat or ride on a phone book.
Better in my opinion, because it would be cheaper than a shaft drive, would be a carbon fiber belt with NO maintenance. You just hose it off, plus it is quiet. Now that would be a real improvement. Get a quieter fan or get rid of it all together with liquid cooling and use a carbon belt (and make a way to put on trunk the back) and you have the perfect Enertia in my book.
But I still happily ordered the Plus as it is and will make some changes when I get it.
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And most of my riding is under 40mph, but yes Albuquerque has many city streets that are 45 mph, and some (Tramway, Coors, Paseo del Norte) that are 50-55mph...and that doesn't include I-40 and 1-25 that bisect the city and are used as city roads (65mph).
Still I hope the bikes Kelly has heard have just been going WOT and are not the norm.
Gavin
I don't know exactly what Kelly is seeing - perhaps Enertias that are charging? The fan comes on while charging and is quite loud in that scenario.
To me city riding is more typically 25-35mph with lots of stop and go. If you are spending significant time over 40mph then I'd think the likelihood of the fan coming on to be quite high, especially if you're in 80F weather. Of course if you're doing 40+mph you can't hear it as much, but it will be quite annoying when you slow down (although still quieter than the car next to you).
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I was not mistaking bikes with a cord coming out leading to a wall plug and being charged. The experiences I was talking about was with bikes that were on the street or in a parking lot with a rider on them unconnected to anything other than a human rear end ;)
The bikes were all in the non-charging mode and had a rider that just pulled up and stopped. Some had gone a long distance to get to where I was and some were just ridden around the block. Just an observation, not a scientific, blind study. I'm certain others may have different experiences, especially people that actually own them. Maybe I just hit the fan jackpot each time I have been around one.
But I'm still getting one and will live with the fan.
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But I'm still getting one and will live with the fan.
+1
Heck, I've never even seen an Enertia in person and I'm still getting one...now that's crazy :)
Gavin
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"Heck, I've never even seen an Enertia in person and I'm still getting one...now that's crazy"
Well, there are people that get put into arranged marriages and they have never met each other so at least you've seen videos and pictures and have heard other people talk about your future partner and what she's like.
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I'll try to hit a few of these from memory...
Seat height - It's the same as the Enertia. There is a change to the ergos, though, as the handlebar is about 1" further back towards the rider and just slightly higher. This new position has been preferred in side-by-side comparison and riding tests for tall and short riders.
Brake position - No chance of a left hand master cylinder. We're going to stick with motorcycle standard controls as described by the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) unless we start building a scooter.
O-ring Chain - You have spoken and we have listened. O-ring chain will be standard on Enertia Plus.
Radiator vs. Fan - A water cooling system simply adds too much cost to the bike, unfortunately. The motor is more expensive with the added water jacketing, a custom aluminum radiator is expensive, a small, reliable 12V water pump is expensive, and the added bracketry and assembly cost all add up as well.
Top Speed - stay tuned... ;) FYI... hardly anyone's noticed that we've bumped the battery bus voltage up to 88.8V nominal vs. the Enertia's 76.8V.
Keep the input coming. Very helpful!
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Thanks Brian...great stuff and why Brammo has my faith...great communication is a wonder in today's world.
I'm fine with the height and with the brakes...was thinking more of what BrammoCraig was asking about getting new riders...but again, the brammo scooter could address that...lower seat with scooter/bicycle type brakes etc etc. The nice potential of an electric scooter is the chance to keep the batteries low...giving a low center of gravity and great balance.
O ring, yea...top speed possibly higher, yea...keeping costs down, yea...
I'm "cool" with air-cooling....I have one ride air-cooled, one water-cooled. Perhaps a small change to the fan itself...coming from the computer world I know fans can come in wildly different noise levels.
Of course I haven't heard the fan noise myself...so I could be a bit off...but quiet is a good goal no matter what.
Again, thanks.
Gavin
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O-ring Chain - You have spoken and we have listened. O-ring chain will be standard on Enertia Plus.
Fantastic. Someone go ask Honda (say) to change their selected chain, see how far that gets you ..
Top Speed - stay tuned... ;) FYI... hardly anyone's noticed that we've bumped the battery bus voltage up to 88.8V nominal vs. the Enertia's 76.8V.
*cough*
Higher voltage should rev higher, higher amps should rev harder. Up to limits of the motor and the controller.
Any idea when we should see journalist Enertia Plus tests?
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I'll try to hit a few of these from memory...
Seat height - It's the same as the Enertia. There is a change to the ergos, though, as the handlebar is about 1" further back towards the rider and just slightly higher. This new position has been preferred in side-by-side comparison and riding tests for tall and short riders.
Brake position - No chance of a left hand master cylinder. We're going to stick with motorcycle standard controls as described by the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) unless we start building a scooter.
Music to my ears! I'd hate to see a non-standard setup turning away crossover ICE-bike riders.
O-ring Chain - You have spoken and we have listened. O-ring chain will be standard on Enertia Plus.
+1! Fantastic news. Much lower maintenance, longer lasting, too.
Radiator vs. Fan - A water cooling system simply adds too much cost to the bike, unfortunately. The motor is more expensive with the added water jacketing, a custom aluminum radiator is expensive, a small, reliable 12V water pump is expensive, and the added bracketry and assembly cost all add up as well.
Top Speed - stay tuned... ;) FYI... hardly anyone's noticed that we've bumped the battery bus voltage up to 88.8V nominal vs. the Enertia's 76.8V.
HMMM! You've got my attention!
Keep the input coming. Very helpful!
Nice job on making the turning radius tighter, and with the amazing speed with which you've increased the range. Keep up the good work, Brian and co!
eric
aka the webman
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Thanks Brian for the clarifications and new information.
Good to know that the seat height is the same and also about the handle bars coming back a bit. That sounds like a good improvement because I was thinking that if I could sit up just a tad more I would be in a more comfortable position and this change seems like it will fix that for me.
Pretty incredible company when the designers make changes to the product based on telepathy. And the O-Ring decision really shows that you are listening to feedback, even if the information was sent in a rather primitive form of communication; the internet. God is that out dated compared to my brain wave transmission powers.
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Brake position - No chance of a left hand master cylinder. We're going to stick with motorcycle standard controls as described by the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) unless we start building a scooter.
Keep the input coming. Very helpful!
Old thread...and I know Brian is anti brake where the clutch is...and he is the designer...but....
KTMs new electric dirt bike...lt hand is the rear brake...like bicycles...like twist and go scooters...
(http://images.gizmag.com/gallery_lrg/ktm-freeride-e-electric-motorcycle-1.jpg)
Either is fine...I can easily brake with my rt foot...I do know my left hand reached a few times for either a clutch or a brake...
Gavin
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A sneak peak at the Enertia Plus battery pack...
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/wisdesign/20111006-IMG_4232.jpg)
A brilliant work of art (and technology) IMHO. You're looking at 6.2kWh of Enertia propelling goodness right there.
More trivia:
- The Enertia Plus battery module (1 of the 2 pieces that make the "pack") is internally referred to as the "BPM 44/70" = Brammo Power Module 44Vdc (nominal) / 70Ah
- The Enertia Plus battery pack has exactly half the number of cells of the Empulse RR race bike that won last year's TTXGP championship.
- There is no EV battery pack in production today that boasts a higher specific energy that that of the Brammo BPM 44/70. Automotive EV industry included.
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Yeah....thanks for breaking the photos here...we really appreciate Brammo coming here and sharing...
Thanks
Gavin
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Mmm, 2 packs vs the 6 in the Enertia classic...extra space left over in the plus? And will the Enertia 2012 (non plus) have just one module? So even more extra space?
Mmmmmm, I gather the main body compartment is radically changed from the 2009 model....
Any chance of throwing a third module in as an add on modification?
Gavin
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Ps...can't wait till Proto comes here and explains all the tech mumbo jumbo....gah, he is a smart one.
G
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Hopefully getting closer to being on the road.
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Tru dat :)
so hoping Proto comes here and either verifies or corrects me...but in terms of top speed, if just going by the bump from 76.8Vdc to 88.8Vdc, top speed should increase from 65mph in the Classic to approx 75mph in the Plus. Which makes the Plus just about perfect for me.
Gavin
edit...i should say "could" increase...there are likely ways Brammo, if they desire to, can keep the top speed at 60+ vs 70+....I do think having top speed advertized as 70+ or 75mph could help sales some....Americans like speed.
edit 2....70Ah
...isn't the current Enertia at 80Ah? What is the difference? Thanks
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New battery tease following J1772 information? It's like a second Christmas : )
I guess you'll probably mount one module above the center spine and one below. Each module should be as large as 3 of the Valence packs (3x 12.8v = 37.2v 40Ah for comparison). May not need to change the design much.
Each module is a 12 sets of cells (3.7v x 12 = 44.4v 70 Ah = 3108 wh). Maybe large-format cells, 70 Ah each?
Brammo probably wants to reuse these cells and modules as much as possible. Probably you will see one module for the Enertia Non-Plus, two in the Enertia Plus. Each module has as much energy as six of the Valence modules (3.2v x 4 = 12.8v 40 Ah = 512 wh).
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Brammo is claiming industry-leading specific capacity from their new battery modules.
Tesla Roadster cells are 185 wh/kg. Entire pack is 117 wh/kg.
Nissan Leaf cells are 157 wh/kg. Module of 4 cells is 132 wh/kg. Entire pack (48 modules) is 82.1 wh/kg. That's a lot of packaging..
Enertia Classic (good term) modules are 79 wh/kg.
If BPM 44/70 weighs as much as 3 valence modules then it should be around 159 wh/kg. Cells are probably 190 wh/kg. At least.
Panasonic is producing 18650 250 wh/kg 3.1 Ah cells now. They're scheduled to produce (http://industrial.panasonic.com/eu/news/nr201005IE002/nr201005IE002.html) 3.4 Ah and 4.0 Ah cells (same specific capacity) in 2012 and 2013. Maybe these will show up in the Tesla Model S..
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I think the Enertia Classic was limited by battery power. Valence states their modules can support 2C discharge continuous, 3C discharge for short bursts. With a 3 kwh pack, that means you're limited to 6kw continuous (or 8 hp). 60 mph is probably as fast as it can go to overcome drag.
With a presumably much higher power cell (BrammoBrian doesn't say it's the same cells used in the TTXGP race bike, only cell count) .. and twice the capacity, the Enertia Plus should be entirely motor-limited in power.
The Perm 120L (Enertia Classic) is rated at only 7 kw continuous (15s up to 10kw, Brammo listed the Enertia at 13kw peak iirc). So the Enertia Classic motor and battery pack were well-matched. This new battery is significantly more powerful than the old motor..
Brammo can easily change the gearing. A higher voltage battery doesn't necessarily mean a higher top speed. But it's possible. We can hope!
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See...that is why I was waiting on Proto...
reading his posts make me:
wish i was smarter
ashamed that I am not
and
glad that he is here to explain things to me...
now back to trying to get this fork into the outlet by my desk....
Gavin
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The important thing is to use lots of numbers in your post. Everyone's eyes glaze over and they assume you're really smrt!~
Also make lots of assumptions. Don't bother to cite your claims, they're laughably obvious!
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The Simpsons - I Am So Smart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhrfhjLd9e4#)
g
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Do each of those modules really look like three of the Valence U Charges?? to me they look like 2...but I don't really know...
(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/img_8722.jpg)
I do like this image...if the main frame is still in this shape it would be easy to put those new modules in
(http://www.bikervoodoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/enertia_exposed_3s.gif)
and maybe have some extra space inside for a quieter fan or small storage or 2 more modules of batteries :)
Gavin
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now back to trying to get this fork into the outlet by my desk....
Is that a 110 or 220 outlet? With a 110, I prefer a 42 degree bend on fork tines on the left hand of the fork, and then 90/45 degree s-bend on the right side of the fork. If you are left handed, multiply those angles by cos(X).
If it's 220, you can go ahead and use the "Spoon Bending" technique to bend your fork into a large U-shape, and then insert both ends.
For non-US outlets, it gets more complex. Australia and anywhere south of the equator isn't too bad, just make all the bends counter-clockwise instead of clockwise. For EU, you can use a "Gnome Adapter" (as seen on TV).
This all applies to 4-tine forks. If you have a 3-tine fork, you're on your own.
*grin*
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dang....now i even feel dumb about how i put forks into outlets...didn't know there was a smart way...i just jam really really hard...
as for the battery size...we could compare them if we can get a picture of Otto holding one of the new modules to compare to this image...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6649539479_c9db6acde3_b.jpg)
Gavin
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Panasonic is producing 18650 250 wh/kg 3.1 Ah cells now. They're scheduled to produce (http://industrial.panasonic.com/eu/news/nr201005IE002/nr201005IE002.html) 3.4 Ah and 4.0 Ah cells (same specific capacity) in 2012 and 2013. Maybe these will show up in the Tesla Model S..
I read somewhere that Panasonic and Tesla actually collaborated on a Model S specific battery cell. So while they are based upon Panasonic's commodity 18650 cells, they are supposed to have something special about them that makes them better for EV's than any of their other batteries they are selling.
What that means technically I couldn't say. It could all just be marketing talk?
Anyways, if there is something actually behind it technically for EV's, it would be interesting to know what it could add for Brammo bikes.
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as for the battery size...we could compare them if we can get a picture of Otto holding one of the new modules to compare to this image...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6649539479_c9db6acde3_b.jpg)
Gavin
Here's a photo that provides a better reference for size. It's a little deceptive, but the single BPM 44/70 does take up the space of 3 Valence U1-XP modules, but provides twice the capacity.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp17/wisdesign/IMG_0551.jpg)
Protomech's pretty much got it nailed. I'm impressed. We'll see if the new Tesla Model S can nudge beyond the 44/70 in specific energy, but if it does, it won't be by much. Being in the company of Tesla ain't so bad either... ;)
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yeah, Proto's a bit of a show off :)
Will the Enertia Classic keep the Valence Batteries or go to one of the Brammo modules? And if one, what will you do to keep the nice weight and balance of the current model?
Gavin
ps....per Proto previous post (say that 5 times fast)....So the Enertia Classic motor and battery pack were well-matched. This new battery is significantly more powerful than the old motor..
So new battery photo...next new motor photo??
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So new battery photo...next new motor photo??
I hope so. Some folks out there (who shall remain nameless) believe that the Brammo bike is vaporware. Hey, that black box could just be some cheap toolbox with a couple of wires coming out of it! I guess there's no pleasing some folks.
As for me, I'm pretty excited to see that photo! And I'm looking forward to seeing more of them; transforming the vapor into a very awesome motorcycle. ;D
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mmmmm, Brian.....I need a photo fix....getting the shakes and scratching one arm over and over....
g
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I'm out of touch for a mere weekend and missed so much. Thanks for showing this, Brian.
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The Perm 120L (Enertia Classic) is rated at only 7 kw continuous (15s up to 10kw, Brammo listed the Enertia at 13kw peak iirc). So the Enertia Classic motor and battery pack were well-matched. This new battery is significantly more powerful than the old motor..!
So Proto, did you think the Plus gets a new motor? Currently the Brammo site lists the Enertia and the Plus as having the same motor specs....
Gavin
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No idea. It's almost certainly cheaper to use the existing motor (no new redesign), and the Enertia Plus is targeting a significantly cheaper price point than (say) the $11500 2012 Zero S ZF6. Which has a smaller battery, if we want to get into size-measuring contests..
I'd love to see a range contest between the E+ and the ZF6 S. S has a little less battery, but has a purportedly very efficient new motor and brake regen.
I expect to see the same motor, but I'd love to see a new motor.. or even the existing motor hot-rodded a little!