Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: Brammofan on January 15, 2015, 06:27:47 PM
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This is what we've been waiting to hear.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150115006426/en/Polaris-Acquires-Electric-Motorcycle-Business-Brammo#.VLhMfct6jqB
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The word is spreading fast: http://insideevs.com/polaris-buys-electric-motorcycle-brammo/ (http://insideevs.com/polaris-buys-electric-motorcycle-brammo/)
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Wow...I wonder if the local dealerships will service my bike? Easier than taking to Denver...
In "non me" related news...I wonder what this means for the people in Ashland/Talent?
G
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Wow...I wonder if the local dealerships will service my bike? Easier than taking to Denver...
In "non me" related news...I wonder what this means for the people in Ashland/Talent?
G
Yes. I hope that they will either be a part of Polaris or the next chapter of Brammo. They're visionaries, and deserve the best treatment.
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Yes I am a bit shocked. But I also need to keep my mind open for the future.
Will Brammo focus on electric powertrain, rather than motorcycles?
Will there be an Engage produced by Polaris?
What about the Brammo employees at Talent?
Puh yes the world is changing. Hope this change will be a good one. We will see.
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I see this as a totally positive and welcomed news!
Hopefully this has some influence on the Austrians too ;)
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Well, it seems we have to wait for at least another 5 months to see what Polaris/Brammo are coming up with. Let's hope they launch some kind of Engage type of motorcycle, e.g. in both offroad and allroad trim.
I can't wait to hear more about their promising plans.
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Are there any signs that Polmo ;) is going to continue the motorcycles business?
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Exciting stuff. Polaris is gaining years of racing experience and EV knowhow while Brammo focuses on more lucrative endeavours (for them at least). Looks like a win win to me. I really hope they keep the Brammo name (and reputation), and continue on with some new race-bikes. I still am waiting for my RR.
This makes Polaris the first big manufacturer to have electric motorcycles in production. They need to capitalize on that.
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Here is another article: http://cleanrider.com/end-brammos-empulse-enertia/ (http://cleanrider.com/end-brammos-empulse-enertia/)
My guess is that when Polaris saw H-D's LiveWire project they decided to jump into the fray with both feet by buying a fully functional and well developed electric motorcycle business and beat H-D to the marketing punch by at least several years. :)
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The real question is. Will I be able to get my windscreen now?
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i put exactly 3.2 miles on my new Empulse R between the time i bought it and the time the company was sold... gotta be some kind of record... :o
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@csspring I really would have appreciated, if you wouldn´t had ordered :'(
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And one more article: http://www.startribune.com/business/288762861.html (http://www.startribune.com/business/288762861.html)
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So my very expensive electric motorcycle will continue to be supported! I was getting a little worried.
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@csspring I really would have appreciated, if you wouldn´t had ordered :'(
Why? The Empulse is a great motorcycle and as far as I'm concerned, we'll supported.
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I'm excited about this for couple reasons.
1. I'm hoping this helps with the dealer networks so I don't have to ride down to the bowels of Miami when I need a firmware update.
2. To see where these E drive trains end up.
As an early adapter (#42), in the long run, does this help, hurt or does not effect the value of my Empulse R "pre" Polaris acquisition?
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@csspring I really would have appreciated, if you wouldn´t had ordered :'(
Why? The Empulse is a great motorcycle and as far as I'm concerned, we'll supported.
Becouse if he would not have ordered, it still would be a brammo. Joke.
Of course the Empulse is great, everybody knows!
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At the end of this article:
http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82556609/ (http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-82556609/)
there is the suggestion the Empulse model will not be continued. And who would expect that it would, if the new "Brammos" are in fact going to be badged as Victory or Indian? I would expect a remodel in the image of those brands.
This leaves me with a pessimistic feeling about how much longer the Empulse will be supported with parts and service expertise. The business incentive for doing so will diminish fairly rapidly.
Oh well, my original goal was to get 3 years of heavy commuting use out of it. I expect I'll make my goal and then some. But I foresee the dark day when I hear the words, "sorry, they don't make that part anymore."
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there is the suggestion the Empulse model will not be continued. And who would expect that it would, if the new "Brammos" are in fact going to be badged as Victory or Indian? I would expect a remodel in the image of those brands.
This leaves me with a pessimistic feeling about how much longer the Empulse will be supported with parts and service expertise. The business incentive for doing so will diminish fairly rapidly.
I doubt we'll see the gearbox used again. Does it take special clutch plates?
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My guess is that Polaris will retain the Brammo brand and that they will look for other sources for some of the chassis components (such as the frame) and motor, along with dumping the gearbox - if for no other reason than not wanting to be stuck with only one supplier for the device.
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Tomorrow is Monday. Hope we get some news from Brammo.
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Tomorrow is Monday. Hope we get some news from Brammo.
Or from Polaris? ???
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As an employee in a small company that was just acquired, I wish the best for all of the Brammo employees. It is sad to see the Brammo chapter close, but another will begin soon. We'll see how it shapes up.
Ted Dillard @ InsideEVs did some actual journalism (real journalism is rare these days, he's been doing good work) and talked with Adrian Stewart.
Regardless of what started the rumor, the company has been hard at work (Stewart mentioned 60+ hour weeks) and it’s business as usual.
LA Times reports:
By summer, Polaris says, expect to see an electric Victory in dealerships.
100% my own speculation:
- The Empulse is dead. They'll finish selling whatever inventory remains after six months of a "summer fire sale" and shut down the design. NOS parts will be available for a time but Brammo probably won't be ordering any more from their suppliers.
- The Brammo brand is dead. It has a lot of brand equity in the EV enthusiast space. That space is very small (per Brammo and Zero's current sales level). The LA Times describes the cruiser as an "electric Victory" not a "Brammo cruiser".
- Brammo dealers are going to be left out in the cold. Polaris has a well-established dealer network. See also the branding note above.
- This summer is an incredibly short timeframe until release, even if development has been progressing for a year or more in secret. Question is, will the a Victory cruiser be based upon a scaled-up ~100V R powertrain or a productized 300+V RR powertrain? I'm leaning towards the latter.. I think Victory will be pitching a super-premium product, their current bike lineup is porky (638 lbs - 845 lbs, $13k up to $25k), and the Sevcon controllers top out at around 50 kW as with the relatively light Zero SR. Transmissions never really demonstrated significant benefit (sorry).
Stab in the dark: 100 kW, 25 kWh, 150+ miles highway, $35k. 850 pounds and a fairing design not too dissimilar to their existing bikes. 6 kW AC charging (4 hours) and CCS support.
I don't know what the real market for a $35k bike from an established manufacturer actually is - Brutus and Lightning aren't boasting of record sales - but motorcycles in the US are a luxury good, and Victory has nothing to line up price-wise against H-D's CVO bikes. I think Victory could sell quite a few of these bikes.. if they can out-accelerate all existing Victory and HD bikes at street-legal speeds and make the owners feel special then they'll do okay.
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I think Polaris will go with a sport bike when they come out with an electric model. I don't think their cruiser base is ready to embrace electric yet. Plus, they already have Victory cruisers competing with Indian cruisers, so why would they want to have another cruiser model competing with their other models? But their first premium electric sport bike would make marketing sense. It would be a toe in the water and should sell well enough to let them gain experience with the technology, explore the electric market and see what they can do with the sportbike crowd. But price would have to be kept to around $20K or less. More than that I don't think the market is ready for yet.
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My post on Brammo's FB page and their response:
"Good for Brammo! What about us customers? Am I going to be able to get clutch plates and tranny gears and electronic parts on my Empulse in say, 3 or 4 years from now?"
"Hi Bill - Yes, rest assured you will. Polaris will honor all Brammo’s warranty and future parts availability obligations for Empulse and Enertia."
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The two wheel EV market is with commuters.
Cruisers will stay a small niche for a while.
Commuters are new for Polaris, maybe they want to enter that market, maybe not. Let's wait and see.
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Rideapart picked up the story, but you won't learn anything new:
https://rideapart.com/articles/polaris-buys-brammo-motorcycles?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HellForLeather+%28Hell+For+Leather%29
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I do not think that the best electric bike so far created, disappears. I believe that sports naked in Spain are the most sold, scooters city obviously first, but the problem is that in Europe with the restrictions of a license, makes it very difficult to make young people accessing the bike . The Brammo Empulse, in Spain, at 18 year old can driving with it, and that's a plus.
An electric motorcycle for travel today is impossible.
Brammo will continue as a brand, is a leading brand like tesla, not contaminated or marginalized within a traditional motorcycle brand, hopefully polaris know valuing this and continue manufacturing and developing the product
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Whoah, I go on a long weekend to New Orleans and all hell breaks loose. Can't say that this is such a shocking development, the tea leaves have been brewing for a while. Fwiw, I have a couple pretty connected friends in the motorcycle industry who think that this is a great move for Brammo, and the Empulse platform, if not the Brammo name will move on. It's iteresting that poweretrain and the drivetrain component of the Brammo brand will remain independent. If that means they'll be a component supplier in the open market, that's probably the end of the Brammo motorcycle brand. If it means they'll remain an R&D arm of Polaris, while the big company handles the logistics of actually building and distributing the bikes, well we might see some pretty interesting stuff come down the line. Should be an interesting 6 months, Polaris doesn't seem to do anything half-ass.
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I'd like to see a Polaris Empulse with a Powered by Brammo sticker on it. Or it could also be this purchase includes the whole lot of what is Brammo including the name. They might just be adding Brammo to there list of sub divisions.
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The reason that I think Polaris will keep the Brammo name is that they kept the Indian name when they bought the rights to the company and that their VP of motorcycle operations was named as also being responsible for the Brammo brand in a press release last year.
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The reason that I think Polaris will keep the Brammo name is that they kept the Indian name when they bought the rights to the company and that their VP of motorcycle operations was named as also being responsible for the Brammo brand in a press release last year.
The Brammo name doesn't have anywhere near the history or brand equity of Indian, so I don't think there's anything to really draw from that precedent. We'll see, I just hope they keep developing the bikes under whatever name they end up settling on. One positive tea leaf is their promising to support warranty and part supply for the existing Brammo bikes. So if you're gonna spend resources on building parts and supporting the bikes, might as well get some return on that investment.
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Wow, how this never popped up in any of my feeds mystifies me, but that's internet in the North Sea for you. The Brand question is interesting. I think of any company Polaris would be one to keep a name. And the Brammo name has recognition and respect in small circles. They have tropheys and accolades and the like. But even still, I'd say way more people will recognize a Polaris name. I think back to when KTM was going to release their
sad little dirt bike, or when Honda showed off a pretty bike with the equivalent of a squirrel motor in it, and how nuts people went. Oh Honda/KTM are gonna show they up starts what's what was the jist I got. Of which I totally disagreed. Seems to me the Honda was nothing more than a PR stunt, and KTM couldn't even come close to matching KTM's pace. But that didn't stop the FIM from trying to start and all electric KTM Motorcross series with the bikes. "The drones", as my uncles refer to them, will always think these big companies will have the best whatever, even if you show them evidence that they don't. So may a Polaris Empulse isn't such a bad thing, as long as it's really a Brammo design. All the people who know the Brammo name will be able to follow the switch to Polaris.
As far as the chassis being designed somewhere else, I am going to have to whole-heatedly disagree. And this is why. From my conversations with Brian from the end of 2012 through to the end of 2013, BRT worked extensively on the chassis of the RR. As a matter of fact when Parker got them more power from the motor it wasn't from the request of anyone. They're just motor heads and went ahead and did it. With my podcast conversation with Eric Bostrom, and later Brian, it seems they found that the power delivery effects the chassis in a different manner than a gas motor (at least at the high levels they were working at). So I have a hard time believing that Polaris would hand the chassis design over to someone else. They might find a different supplier, I'm sure that's a distinct possibility. But I think the chassis will still be Brammo designed. If Brammo becomes more of an R&D company then hopefully BRT will be able to continue on as the racing arm.
Just my thoughts.
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Here is another article, with some interesting comments:
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/22/polaris-buys-brammo-electric-motorcycles/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/22/polaris-buys-brammo-electric-motorcycles/)
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Happy for Brammo! Really looking forward to a touring-capable electric cruiser to replace my Boulevard.
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I got a mail from Brammo
Dear Rano
To avoid any doubt we would like to remind all Brammo customers that your Brammo Authorized Dealer remains your sole source of service, warranty, parts and accessories, for all Brammo electric motorcycles. Any changes to this arrangement will be communicated to you directly by Brammo.
Ride safe
Team Brammo
At least my Enertia will get spare parts. 8)
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I have a thought about this. Some of the assumptions made is that Polaris acquired Brammo so they could make their own electric motorcycles. They didn't buy the part of Brammo needed to do that. They bought the Empulse and the Enertia not the drive train. Brammo still owns the drive train. So they must be intending to make Empulses. Think of it this way, If they wanted to make an Electric Victory they could have done it with a Brammo drive train already without buying anything. So the real question is will it be a Polaris Empulse or will they keep the Brammo name on it. Also I'd like to see what Polaris motorcycle experience brings to the Empulse line.
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I have a thought about this. Some of the assumptions made is that Polaris acquired Brammo so they could make their own electric motorcycles. They didn't buy the part of Brammo needed to do that. They bought the Empulse and the Enertia not the drive train. Brammo still owns the drive train. So they must be intending to make Empulses. Think of it this way, If they wanted to make an Electric Victory they could have done it with a Brammo drive train already without buying anything. So the real question is will it be a Polaris Empulse or will they keep the Brammo name on it. Also I'd like to see what Polaris motorcycle experience brings to the Empulse line.
Great point, but there's a bit of nuance here. Did they buy just the brand or the intellectual property as well? Did Brammo keep the patents in their drivetrain and battery division, or relinquish them to Polaris so that it could use it as a base for their own program?
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Brammo definitely kept the powertrain technology. The whole reason behind this is so Brammo can focus on being a powertrain company and not have to worry about building bikes. So Polaris bought the motorcycle manufacture. So why else would you buy that unless you plan on building those motorcycles?
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In the best world ever - yes, this would be the past and the future.
Let´s see.
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Great point, but there's a bit of nuance here. Did they buy just the brand or the intellectual property as well? Did Brammo keep the patents in their drivetrain and battery division, or relinquish them to Polaris so that it could use it as a base for their own program?
There probably isn't much IP in the drivetrain part because the PTO will only grant patents to "non-obvious" technology. If they are taking commercial items and just combining them, the PTO will consider that obvious. They may have a copyright on the software, but I'm not sure how much value that would have outside an Empulse or of any of the major components are swapped. Brammo's value is in their design experience, not the IP.
Interesting observation by Littlefreak, though.
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Brammo owns more IP than you think.... Not just drive train.
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Brammo owns more IP than you think.... Not just drive train.
PTO lists two patents for Brammo, both in throttle control. There are 10 applications, most of which I am guessing were not granted patents given the time stamps.
FWIW, 20% success rate through PTO is about what I would expect from a startup, maybe even slightly better.
Patents are the only form of IP, but they are the kind that you can sell and count on getting royalties in return.
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PTO lists two patents for Brammo, both in throttle control. There are 10 applications, most of which I am guessing were not granted patents given the time stamps.
How long have they been in process? I've had patents go several years before they were granted. I've also had patents that after a few years they sent me back a challenge saying "we found prior art - this guy blogged about this thing here" and they pointed me to my own documentation about the technology being patented. I had to point out that it was describing the need, not the solution - and it was my own description of the need that I solved myself via the patent they were evaluating - and they then sat on it a few more years before finally granting it. A reasonable analogy would be if they sent the guy patenting the electric drivetrain in the Tesla Model S a pointer to an article he had written on Tesla's own web site about all the drawbacks of gas cars and claimed it was "prior art".
PTO can be really slow at times (in more ways than one).
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I believe the batteries and the battery controllers are of their own design. When it comes to electric drive trains the batteries are the meat. So having leg up in that market is a good leg to stand on.
Also you don't need a patent to be a strong company. You just need to be able to produce the products people want. Mc Donalds doesn't have a patent on hamburgers doesn't mean they can't make bank. I think a large factor is Brammo doesn't have experience making and selling motorcycles. Reaching customers is hard for them. Polaris on the other hand has everything they need. It's possible Brammo Motorcycles were slowly bleeding the company or at least just struggling to make a profit that made the time and effort put in worth it. Going from being a design and R&D company and then expect to switch over into production isn't easy.
Or it could be the opposite. Demand might be going up and their little production team wouldn't be able to keep up.
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I am no expert on patents, but I do work very closely with IP attorneys, and a little bit rubs off. Most of Brammo's patent applications are dated in 2011 or earlier. My experience is that patents are usually granted in 2 to 3 years, and I would consider us experts in the process (i.e., we only submit applications for stuff we are pretty sure will be granted, and stuff we intend to license). IMO, some of the patents have lost their value, so Brammo probably won't pursue them anyway (i.e., motor control while shifting, etc.). If they aren't using professional and experienced attorneys to file, I could see it taking longer. But with the sale of the company, I'm not sure what the motivation would be to continue to pursue the process which is not only expensive to start, but expensive to maintain.
I totally agree with Littlefreak that patents are not required to have a successful business. That's a better way of saying what I was trying to get at all along. My point is that the value of the company isn't in the IP but in the experience gained.
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Maybe it's the quality of our corporate patent lawyers, or maybe this varies by industry, but...
I just checked my 9 patents in the software field. Only 3 were granted in less than 3 years, the fastest was granted in 2 years 8 months. The other 6 all took more than 4 years to grant with the longest taking 4 years 9 months.
Two of them were revised to add new classifications (which grants a new patent number for some reason, but it's the same invention) and the revisions took between 2 and 3 years to simply upgrade the Class of the patent (no new text or claims, just an "Oh, and this also falls under Class XXX/YYY" addition).
From my perspective, 2 to 3 years is an uncommon "best you can hope for" and 4 to 5 years is the norm...
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My post on Brammo's FB page and their response:
"Good for Brammo! What about us customers? Am I going to be able to get clutch plates and tranny gears and electronic parts on my Empulse in say, 3 or 4 years from now?"
"Hi Bill - Yes, rest assured you will. Polaris will honor all Brammo’s warranty and future parts availability obligations for Empulse and Enertia."
I hope something amazing happens here. I lost my dealer less than two weeks after I bought my Enertia+. I had problems, which the dealer wasn't competent to handle (they also do BMW and Tri, and I'm really not even comfortable bringing my BMW to them). I had problems, Adam went above and beyond and got my E+ sorted out just fine.
Where it gets interesting: Rumor is they're going to be bought by the mega-center here (multi-brand house, multi-function; street bikes, quads, jetskits, etc). They do carry Polaris, so there's that. But, today I noticed what I think is some small leak coming off my fork leg. The BMW dealer hasn't carried Brammo for... 8-10 months, and they're not acquired by the mega-center yet.
Fortunately, not owning a Zero, I have name-brand forks that'll be easy for any shop to service, but are they warranty? I don't know, and if they are, no idea how to go about getting them serviced.
I do hope that Polaris keeps the Enertia line going in addition to the Empulse; a low-end commuter bike is just fine for a lot of folks... the E+ is on par (performance, range on one 'fill') as a DRZ-400SM, and costs about 30% more. The Empulse is about on par with my 1999 BMW (again, range performance) and again, 30% more. Than a bike that's 16 years old. That is to say, it performs on par with a 16 year old ICE bike. I can't see paying 30% more than I did for 16 year old performance, but for the E+ it's a reasonable expenditure, still in the 4 digit range.
HD's really off-base with the Livewire, and if Polaris sinks its teeth in to electric Victories I think that's likewise a mistake; the buyers of those brands and models find the noise and rumble and vibration part and parcel with the design, as much a part of the bike as comfy seating and excessive amounts of chrome. Polaris would be smart to pursue the path that Brammo has, both high and low end.