Brammo Owners Forum
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: craigq on April 25, 2012, 08:18:53 PM
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Would it make sense to start a "fuel economy thread"? Or does one already exist? I've seen three online docs so far:
Brammo Efficiency (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgzpETjNnvWAdFV1eGM5WlM5MjFuNUd5bGF4blZnWGc&hl=en#gid=0)
Protomech's Zero S Energy Usage (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AubOGC_oXqHfdFBMLUhvNVRKVnRCRzlOQWJvT05QZEE#gid=0)
CliC's Zero DS Ride Log (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AvBKYoIz8W22dGYxYXFtUHBFcE0zYzBXbUxHXy1iRVE&output=html)
craigq's 2012 Zero XU Log (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap63JU985rHkdHF6T3dXaGxjSF9Tc2hFWlFZWmVFaXc)
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Excellent idea. Might even keep this one at the top (make it a sticky). Thanks, craig.
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Crap, now instead of getting to say elmotos get 200-400 MPGe, I feel obliged to say 250 to 300 MPGe. Sigh.
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Ha ha, my log is pretty lame and sparse :) I plug in at work now and don't take my Kill-a-Watt with me, so I'm not getting good data most days.
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I still haven't plugged in anywhere but home. I don't take the Kill-a-watt with me, so I plan to just track time charged away from home by hours.
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Speaking about "fuel" economy and electric motorcycle range, here is an interesting article by Neil Saiki (who I believe is the original developer of the Zero) regarding EV range standards and why he thinks they need to be changed: http://www.ntsworks.com/Range.html (http://www.ntsworks.com/Range.html)
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Well, i was working on a more lengthy analysis of energy consumption in electric vehicles, splitting up usage into polynomial categories (e.g. static usage from e.g. the computer systems is x^0, but wind drag is in the x^2 - class) in the hope it might interest someone (except me of course), and also include some qulified estimations about e.g the energy required to climb a mountain or acclerate rapidly.
At the moment im working on frictional losses and how important they are, and about accleration processes im still quite clueless, so if someone might want to join in (I think the wiki might be approximate), hes welcome :)
That might turn into a article-series explaining why electric motors are so awesome *by design*, how they work in general and a bit more in detail. Furthermore battery chemistry might be explained, but i would have to work myself into that first.
The level im aiming at is about ISCED 2-3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education)), so stuff you should have heard about in school, but might have forgotten cause it was so boring :D
Not higher, cause I could not provide that service(I dont study physics, just mathematics ;) ), not lower, cause that would be boring, and could be provided by the zero-flyer flying around (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/Zero_Motorcycles_Going_Electric_low_res.pdf (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/resources/Zero_Motorcycles_Going_Electric_low_res.pdf)).
So a good deal more formulas and calculating than above flyer, but still some explanation.
So are people interested in it or does everybody know this stuff well enough to not wonder about it?
In the second case, we still may consider working out a few pages in the wiki in order to push general interested public too it, or to tell newbies to RTFM ;)
Im in for replys,
oml
PS: Latex rendering for the wiki might be nice, technically.
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We have a couple of people who might be able to help around here. Another place to look for EV-related technical advice is at elmoto.net. Those guys have some serious ev-related physics knowledge.
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Here are some roughed-in parameters for a calculator on ecomodder.
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1202.msg8528;topicseen#msg8528 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1202.msg8528;topicseen#msg8528)
I have parameters for the Zero also that match well with my real-world experience.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1929.msg6557#msg6557 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1929.msg6557#msg6557)
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Here are some roughed-in parameters for a calculator on ecomodder.
Oh thanks protomech, thats a good one :)
I really like the tabular output, although I think tire drag coefficient is really high for the Empulse o.O
Well, it really spared me from doing the thinking myself, so my sincerest thanks ;)
Cant wait for the first few Empulse to be shipped for real life values & more accurate data.
Greetings
oml
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I 100% made up the parameters from thin air. They may happen to align in certain places with the actual real-world values, but that's only happy coincidence.
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I 100% made up the parameters from thin air. They may happen to align in certain places with the actual real-world values, but that's only happy coincidence.
Like 1.22 Kg/m^3 thin air? ;)
We'll see, but i think those are much to high. A car ist about 0.008, but I dont know if motorbike-tires are usually much more draggy.
Well, we'll see.
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How do you guys keep track of the data in the spreadsheets?
I haven't got my Empulse yet but have made an iphone app to keep track of some basic stuff, can be entered after every ride and every charge.
But maybe there already is such an app? I have searched for it but haven't found any.
Or maybe the bike keeps track of that?
BTW, whatt is a Kill-a-Watt?
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I don't know of an app yet.
For a while I was using my own spreadsheet (attached).
To measure electrical mains consumption, many use this:
http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html (http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html)
Enjoy your new ride!
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Thanks,
Your spreadsheet pretty much looks like what I had in mind.
In my phone app I can log rides and charges and export that for use in a spreadsheet.
Haven't figured out the details regarding actual kWh or costs, for now (well, starting friday) just logging the SOC (percentages).
Ah, a measuring device, I have something simular at home.
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I was using "Road Trip" app on my iPhone for a little while. I changed "fuel type" to "KWh", and you need to know the price per KWh or for the total cost of the session (most of our charging stations over here are free or tell you exactly how much the session cost you). It works if you are willing to take the time to log every charging session (I lost interest after a bit). I'm pretty sure you can export into Excel from the app, but I just use the average consumption from the app to calculate the per mile cost of my gas vehicles in a separate spreadsheet.
I caution you against using a Kill-a-watt meter. Mine lasted about a month before it caught fire (I do have a thread here on that), and there are many reports of similar issues with them for high power applications. They may be rated at 15 amps, but only for short periods of time. If you're drawing a high load for hours at a time, you may run into issues. Quality isn't there yet. They may not make any for 220V used where you are at. I do know of other people with meters installed into the home fuse box for the outlet being used to charge the bike, but those also cost several hundred dollars. And you can't take those with you when you travel.
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Thanks,
I'll start using my own app and see if it's fit for the purpose. I'm more interested in the power consumption itself, not so much the cost.
And I'll double check my powermeter and if I'm not sure about it's safety I won't use it.