Empulse Purchase

[Gavin]

And I agree with you about the white Empulse...it "calls" to me

Ahab's after his white Empulse   

I also sent an email to empulse@brammo.com asking when the Empulse hard cases will be available on the web site and if they will work on either Empulse versions.  I would like to see a picture of a set mounted.  Waiting on response.

Nice

We have literate people at Brammoforum?!?!

Who'd of thounk it....

G

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

I think he was implying that if the Empulse costs so much that Empulsebuyer isn't getting one, then it costs too much...he isn't implying that you aren't putting your money where your mouth is...

I will apologize in advance for the really long post, but I want to take it out of my chest now, so I never need to talk about it anymore. It's a rant and you should skip it if you're not in the mood.

It is what Gavin said. More specifically, if you had to think about it, it's already too much. For me, it's the same as if they had released the Enertia+ for a price that made Gavin say "wait a minute..."
It doesn't stop you two from taking an extra step to get it, but if the most excited, most "enciter" person that I have seen around take a moment to think about it (or how to get it), it tells me everything I need to know about Brammo.

They want to put out the best product, they have the best service, and they are awesome in everything they do (but for communication--I really hope they hire some people who have some risk communication training soon). It's just that I am not anywhere near their radar. For Brammo, I am just some piece of meat they used to help hype their product and now they are not even going to bother to throw me a bone. If I can't afford a $17K motorcycle, they don't want my business. They didn't even tried to make sure I could feel better about the Enertia or anything else. They just spat in my face and told me they don't want me around. And that's the message I am getting from many people in different forums. How can I defend a brand that told me to take a hike?

Sorry, I am a poor college professor making much less than $50K a year. I saved my 108h/week earned money so I could have a shot at buying this amazing bike that Brammo showed me a year ago. I came to this forum, using the moniker Brammofan gave me--indirectly--at http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/. I put on the t-shirt and I followed every single new development hoping that they would keep their promise to have an "affordable" bike that still looked like something I would want.

I wish the best luck to Brammo and I really hope Craig will be swimming in that $1 billion dream. But I also hope that, somewhere in that dream, he remembers that he turned his back on some loyal supporters, just like that fairytale princess who couldn't sleep because there was one little tiny bean in between her extremely expensive and comfortable set of mattresses.

I love everything about Brammo, but one more time, my love got rejected and steeped upon. And it hurts.

For me, it's time to wake up. I am not getting an Empulse. VA doesn't give me any breaks and (thank you, Don--Scuderia West--, for trying) the financing options are pathetic when something costs that much more than the original options. I see people trying to come up with excuses for their behavior, but all I see is Stockholm Syndrome: "Beat me up, hit me more and I still will find some way to give you excuses and let you abuse me some more."   

You are all really great guys and Brammo is trying to be decent (although I don't know if their antics is any better than Zero's now), but my eyes are open and I can't close them anymore. The Empulse is here and it doesn't look like the prototype, it doesn't perform like the prototype, and it costs literally double the money. The Empulse is anything BUT the Empulse. It's a great bike, but it's nowhere near the promise. I don't need a Mission or a Sora and I also don't want a Zero nor an Enertia. You can rationalize that as much as you want, but the truth is: they put me in their little "ride" for almost 2 years. Then, they told me that they would try something new, when many of us said we were o.k. with what they had. Now, they show up with this fat monster for twice the price of the original 6.0.

There is nothing left. Whoever in Brammo thought that creating this expectation was going to be "cool" needs to go away quickly. It wasn't cool. It was just pathetic and offensive.

As I know the Icon-Brammo team has nothing to do with it (actually only the communication/promotion person has), I will still support electric bikes and even the team. I just hope Brammo will stand up and own to the fact tht the product they are delivering has very little to do with the promise. I don't need charity nor free stuff, I just would have enjoyed if they had come forward saying that the bike wouldn't be anywhere near the top price of $15K. That was just a dirty, smelly bull sh*t lie. $17K (and see that I am not even mentioning the $19K) is NOT an affordable production bike. Only very rich people can afford that kind of luxury. My brand new car cost me $9,999.

That's all. If Brammo gives a damn, I hope they will start looking for a new way to communicate to their audience. As I said before, people like Gavin, Brammofan, and Empulsebuyer do 10 thousand times more fore the brand than the actual people hired to do the communication for Brammo. Everything iin the launching to everything in the communication process of the company until now is just shoddy and sub par. Brammo will be making some money now, so they should hire someone who can actually handle that.

[WanderLust]

Enough has been said about how disappointed we all are at having our arms twisted to fork up the extra 2K to ride it this year...
I am on the fence, I would need to finance it, since I don't have that much cash laying around now, had they launched it this time last year, I wouldn't have gone nuts remodeling my new house

To put things into perspective, I paid less for a 3 year old Acura TL with 50K odd miles than brammo wants me to pay for either one of these...

Tomorrow, I might just say Sc**w this, go buy that ducati that's been tempting me for the last two years and wait for eBike prices to drop, while some poor (yes pun intended) eager sucker decides to pony up the 19K and pay the price for being an early adopter...

[flar]

I can understand the disappointment, but I think people are looking at this the wrong way around.  It sounds like you believe that the prices are there to simply take it out of your hands.  I don't believe that for a minute.

The problem is not that they chose not to deliver the bike that you wanted.  The problem is that the bike that you wanted turned out to be a fantasy.  They, perhaps, could have been more up front about the infeasibility of their original projection, but they aimed for it and this was the closest they could come.

This isn't a company that has enough cash on hand to give away technology forever until it becomes feasible to actually make a profit off of it.  They claimed they could produce these figures for $14k, and they tried for 2 years, and they had to invent some new technology to even come close.  And, after 2 years of development it turns out they can't do all of that for $14k, but they can do something very much like it for $17k(*).

That's just an unfortunate fact.  It hurts for those who just can't justify that price tag, but I don't think they are upping the price out of the original ball park because they "can", they are doing it because that's what it takes for a bike like this.

You can be frustrated and angry over the hype they were peddling, but that's a different story.  That leads to questions of why the old prices and specs were still on the web site up til a couple of weeks before the final unveiling.  That doesn't lead to questions of why they delivered this bike instead of the one on the promo sheets.  The promo sheets were a guess, and it was an unfortunately overly optimistic guess.  The prototype bike was a guess as well, and we never really saw if it came close to the figures they were claiming in terms of performance.  It obviously didn't or they wouldn't have taken 2 years off to redesign it with a transmission, no?

A couple of things, like the styling and the rider position, are incidental.  And they chose to change those from the prototype for good reason.  The extra technology and the extra cost were an engineering hurdle that they couldn't find a graceful way over.

(*) I mentioned the $17k price point above and I want to get back to that.  The fact that they are only selling the R for the first year is likely also due to needing to make some money to stay in decent financial shape.  It may be an "option" they chose to try to encourage higher margin sales at first, but it could also be due to the fact that the $17k version isn't financially as sound until they get the production line going and can leverage some volume.  That's hard to distinguish from "they just didn't care to entertain my business" for the folks that are on the fence of being able to afford $17k, but not $19k, but I don't think it is being done to be mean.  I think they are wringing the rocks so hard and this is as much blood as they can get from it until better rock-wringing technology comes along over the next few years.

It's heart breaking that the fantasy didn't come true, but the realities of the production model appear to be a machine worth considering and perhaps owning compared to the state of the competition given how much more performance the bike offers.  They've always said that they were looking to produce a machine that would take away the compromises.  Honestly, there will be some compromises in any EV's near future that can't be taken away, but they've taken away quite a few of them:

- top speed *well* over any other bike - and true to the original claims (requires this level of tech)
- range that was well over any bike from 2 years ago - and true to original ... (...)
- acceleration that leaves any other non-exotic EV bike in the dust - implied by original goals (...)
- doesn't have cheap parts unworthy of the rest of the package like some EV bikes
- charging speed less than half of other bikes with reasonable street range, and probably better than some that don't have reasonable street range

Does anyone else have a design for a bike that met their original claimed goals that can come in at the prices they projected?  If so, then share them with Brammo.  If not, then the issue is really disappointment that the bike we thought we might get hasn't been invented yet.  It's sad.  It's disheartening.  It's frustrating.  But, don't harbor ill will towards Brammo for giving it their best for 2 years and only getting most of the way there.

[FreepZ]

I understand Ninja's frustration, the bike that Brammo was initially offering, without the transmission and the fast charging but at the cheaper price, would have been satisfactory to many people. (I wonder how close to the 100 mph / 100 mile range the prototype was.) I believe that Brammo is trying to appeal to the mainstream bikers who would not have accepted the limitations of that configuration; slow charging, poor acceleration at low speeds. According to CB, when they showed their bike to a test group, many (or all?) of them complained about the lack of gears, or at least of the poor performance at low speeds. So while Brammo could produce a cheaper* bike, my guess is that they believe that the market for such a machine is much smaller than for the configuration that they are going with.

*Cheaper but not cheap. The bike would still be way more expensive than an equivalent ICE bike.

It makes a lot of financial sense to only sell the expensive version of the bike first. They have been doing R&D for two years already, and they have to start making money now before they go broke. Tesla started by making a luxury sports car because Musk knew that the R&D would be expensive so the first cars would be expensive too. Might as well make them super expensive luxury cars rather than overpriced base models. Stage two in Musk's plan is to make the Model S and Model X, which are more affordable. Stage three is to make cars for the masses using all of the technology that was already paid for by the more expensive cars. In a few years, if the company is successful, I hope that Brammo will follow the Tesla model and build a more affordable version of their sports bike. (Perhaps they feel that they are already doing that with the Enertia Plus.)

Having said all of that, it sucks to have wait until 2013 to get the more affordable version of the bike when many people have already been waiting for years and just cannot afford the expensive version. It's not like the bike doesn't exist. Brammo has just chosen not to make it available.

[Brammofan]

I can understand the disappointment, but I think people are looking at this the wrong way around.  It sounds like you believe that the prices are there to simply take it out of your hands.  I don't believe that for a minute.
***
Does anyone else have a design for a bike that met their original claimed goals that can come in at the prices they projected?  If so, then share them with Brammo.  If not, then the issue is really disappointment that the bike we thought we might get hasn't been invented yet.  It's sad.  It's disheartening.  It's frustrating.  But, don't harbor ill will towards Brammo for giving it their best for 2 years and only getting most of the way there.

Great post, flar.  I understand the disappointment and the frustration.  I don't understand why so many people on this forum and elsewhere seem to be taking it personally and are choosing to be so mean-spirited about it.

[Richard230]

I subscribe to a number of monthly motorcycle magazines and I have noticed this year that motorcycle prices have been really going up lately. It seems like most large cruisers and sport bikes are selling around $15K now and even many 600cc-class bikes cost around $10K. That is why I was not surprised to see the Empulse bracket my $18K estimate. I think it is going to be a while before we will see electric motorcycles selling for the same price as IC bikes.  It is going to take time for the technology and parts to drop in price and for sales volume to increase to the point where prices can drop due to economy of scale.  Until that happens, I don't think you will see the major manufacturers enter the market. Only then will there be a significant drop in prices.  It is going to take a while before our sticker-shock ends.

I expect BMW to be the first major manufacturer on the market with a two-wheel electric vehicle, most likely their scooter and I bet that will sell for at least $20K when it is finally introduced in Europe.  I have my doubts if it will ever be introduced into North America as that is not the type of vehicle that their customers want here.

[860]

I subscribe to a number of monthly motorcycle magazines and I have noticed this year that motorcycle prices have been really going up lately. It seems like most large cruisers and sport bikes are selling around $15K now and even many 600cc-class bikes cost around $10K. That is why I was not surprised to see the Empulse bracket my $18K estimate. I think it is going to be a while before we will see electric motorcycles selling for the same price as IC bikes.  It is going to take time for the technology and parts to drop in price and for sales volume to increase to the point where prices can drop due to economy of scale.  Until that happens, I don't think you will see the major manufacturers enter the market. Only then will there be a significant drop in prices.  It is going to take a while before our sticker-shock ends.

I expect BMW to be the first major manufacturer on the market with a two-wheel electric vehicle, most likely their scooter and I bet that will sell for at least $20K when it is finally introduced in Europe.  I have my doubts if it will ever be introduced into North America as that is not the type of vehicle that their customers want here.

Big price increases are rumored to be coming even for 2-wheeled transportation without batteries or gas engines.  Bicycle prices are going up by 30 percent by next year according to one authority in the bicycle business:

"the back story is that complete bike prices are expected to rise up to 30 percent by 2013, driven by higher manufacturing costs in Asia and unstable currency in Europe and the US."

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Shimano-2013-First-Look-Affordable-SLX-Ensemble-Supercharged-Wit.html

I'm sure the exact same price pressures apply to motorcycle parts as apply to bicycle parts.

[protomech]

I believe the prototype was an 8 kWh bike. So it probably never reached 100 miles, at least not at a reasonable speed.

The prototype wasn't slow, but the production bike with IET is significantly faster. I timed the prototype at approximately 6 seconds from 10-60 mph .. call it 7 seconds 0-60. It may take a couple of years before we see an affordable truly fast single speed bike.

I expect Zero to release a single-speed sport bike to compete with Brammo next year. I do not expect it to be nearly as fast - maybe also 7s 0-60 100 mph top speed, but pricing and capacity should be a little lower. Expect a higher power onboard charger and some aero work to reduce highway consumption, possibly bringing highway range to parity with Empulse.

If we compare capacity to capacity ($1000/kWh), a 9.3 kWh prototype bike using the prototype pricing would have been priced at $13.3k. So while the cost-of-entry has increased from $10k ($9k with subsidies available at that time) to $19k in H2 2012 and the delivery schedule has slipped a year .. the real price slip over projections is $3700 for bikes shipping 1.5 years after initial plans.

I firmly believe we will see a smaller Empulse show up at some point. Brammo could release a 5 90Ah module Empulse with reduced voltage (75V 6.7 kWh), or use 7 70 Ah modules (103V 7.2 kWh). Retaining 7 modules is probably the easiest solution.. They will probably do this once they have a mass-manufacturing assembly set up, and couple it to a price drop for the 9.3 kWh Empulse as well. Getting mass-manufacturing set up for the Empulse will be Brammo's focus for the remainder of this year and next.

Here's an example scenario:
Empulse 7.2 kWh (410 lbs) announced at EICMA 2013, delivery starting early spring 2014.
Empulse 9.3 kWh price drop to $15k, Empulse 7.2 kWH priced at $13k.

Also: as flar said, I don't think Brammo is pricing the Empulse to stiff its customers. $17k is a steep price, but I don't think they're going to make much profit on it, even then. Their price projections and the bike's expected feature list were both well short of the shipping bike.

It would be nice to see them acknowledge the preorder customers that have been waiting for so long and possibly address price, both for the Empulse and the Enertia Plus. Dropping a price bombshell on folks without any warning or explanation (I and others have tried to provide some warning here definitely smacks of disregard for their would-be customers.

[EmpulseRider]

Yeah, the problem with Brammo's approach to "eliminating excuses" is that they were listening to the wrong folks... those people complaining about things like "it doesnt have a six speed", "its range is way too limited", or the classic "it takes too long to charge" is that these same people are just going to fabricate more excuses... like they are now. They were and still arent interested in electric motorcycles, other than trolling forums to point out limitations of the technology they know next to nothing about. Those of us who put in our pre-orders in for the 6.0 and 8.0, even the 10.0 were full aware of the limitations, and BENEFITS of going electric... I think most of us would have been fine with ~60 mile range direct drive Empulse with simple 120v charging. Brammo is trying to please the wrong people... and the side effect of that was a higher price, albeit with some cool added features... I will certainly enjoy the added features, but I would have been fine without them too. Bottom line, we are getting more bike than originally planned, but we are paying for it too. Its not the bargain we were originally planning for, but $17k and $19k are a fair price for what you get, which is a highly refined electric bike with top shelf components.

[Gavin]

Empulse 9.3 kWh price drop to $15k, Empulse 7.2 kWH priced at $13k.

and add:

Empulse 7.2 single speed automatic at 11,995. a bit slower off the line, top speed of 90-95 mph vs over 100.


Gavin


(I actually would buy that over the Plus...or more accurate, I will move up from the Plus when if that comes out in 2014...)

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

My point was just what Flar said here:

You can be frustrated and angry over the hype they were peddling, but that's a different story.  That leads to questions of why the old prices and specs were still on the web site up til a couple of weeks before the final unveiling.

As I said, I don't have any problems with Brammo producing an awesome electric bike that is way beyond what I can pay. I love the design (although I would still prefer a leaner one and ad clip-ons) and the specs. Just like a love the design and specs for Lito's Sora. My problem is just with their communication department. It's not the first time (or the second or third) they fail to communicate. And that's it. The bike is awesome and I know it will sell enough. But just like with Sora or Mission, I can't buy it. No need to tell me I could and hold that expectation for 2 years. As soon as they realized they were going for the high-end consumers, they should have said so. I could have used the money for something else. No "mean-spirited" anything. Now, moving on...

[Deadly Silent Ninja]

Empulse 9.3 kWh price drop to $15k, Empulse 7.2 kWH priced at $13k.

and add:

Empulse 7.2 single speed automatic at 11,995. a bit slower off the line, top speed of 90-95 mph vs over 100.


Gavin


(I actually would buy that over the Plus...or more accurate, I will move up from the Plus when if that comes out in 2014...)

I would be perfectly fine with that 7.2, Gavin. As we know how influential you are with Brammo, we might see it soon enough. 

[860]

Yeah, the problem with Brammo's approach to "eliminating excuses" is that they were listening to the wrong folks... those people complaining about things like "it doesnt have a six speed", "its range is way too limited", or the classic "it takes too long to charge" is that these same people are just going to fabricate more excuses... like they are now....

Well, to be fair, some of us (like me) have repeatedly said that the Empulse promise of being comparable to SV650 performance is the whole reason we're even considering purchasing any electric motorcycle at all.  So it wasn't just the haters who wanted this stuff. 

I want the six speed if that is what it takes to get the Empulse to launch off the line with acceleration similar to my SV650. 

I want the six speed if that is what it takes to pull a wheelie, or to burn rubber.

I want the 9.3 battery instead of the 8.0 battery I initially signed up for if that is what it is going to take to get the minimum highway range I need.

I want the fast charger, not as some people talk about for taking a road trip and doing a full battery re-fill.  I want it as a quick way to get another 10 miles of range just so I can make it home.

But then again, my expectations might not be the same as many other folks here.  that's OK too.

[Gavin]

Empulse 9.3 kWh price drop to $15k, Empulse 7.2 kWH priced at $13k.

and add:

Empulse 7.2 single speed automatic at 11,995. a bit slower off the line, top speed of 90-95 mph vs over 100.


Gavin


(I actually would buy that over the Plus...or more accurate, I will move up from the Plus when if that comes out in 2014...)

I would be perfectly fine with that 7.2, Gavin. As we know how influential you are with Brammo, we might see it soon enough.  

Ha, I would be fine with that too...I would actually buy that today if it was available...of course if it was available today it would be a bit higher priced than it would be IF released in 2014...so 13495 today...11995 in 2 years....I would still buy it for 13495)

As for the "influential" part...Gawd I wish. The people at Brammo have been very nice too me...just like Team A at Aptera was very nice to me....I'm a likable guy

I am "friends" on facebook with the co-founders of Aptera and some of the Brammo people...we don't chit chat on line, but see each others personal posts and thoughts and occasionally "like" a thought or two...

That said, friends on facebook and friends in "life" are very different things. Not even the same ballpark.

Friends on facebook and "influential on major business decisions" for a company I do not work for....well that isn't even in the same species, let alone family tree (does that even make sense?)

Basically I'm saying that Brammo could have me giving suggestions and a howler monkey throwing feces at a business growth projection chart and Brammo could easily think the monkey was making better suggestions...

it wouldn't be the first time that has happened to me...but that is a story for another day.

Gavin

but I will suggest it to Brammo...just so they can digitally roll their eyes at me and say, "Geez, Don't you think we have enough on our plate right now...Empulse, Enertia, gotta get the Encite and Engage going...and now you want a third Empulse AND bug us about an electric scooter too*....GRRRRRRR....DIGITAL EYE ROLL...."


*my sister in law wants an electric motorcycle, but is 5 foot nothing...so she needs an EV scooter...want Brammo to do that too...they think i'm funny...even kinda cute...basically they think of me as a child or maybe just a bit "special"...