Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: shocker on August 17, 2013, 12:56:49 PM
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Just did the first oil change yesterday, so I thought I will try the sport mode this morning. I didn't like how it flips between regen and power modes abruptly for street riding, so I switched it back to the normal mode after 15 miles of riding.
From all the praise I've heard about the sport mode here, am I the only one who does not like its feel for street riding?
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I like the regen in Sport mode. I think I would be forced to use the brakes more when stopping if there was less force. I think a slight improvement would be having the amount of regen force start lower and ramp up as you slow down so that there is a more constant rate of slowing. This is mostly an issue once I hit 1st gear as I usually compensate by shifting down. In 1st it starts slowing rapidly, but the brake force peters out a bit at 20 or so. My Prius ramps up the regen at slow speeds above 7 mph.
Edit - Note that I weigh around 200 wet, so perhaps the force works better for me. (The force is strong with this one)
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When I first started using Sport mode, I too didn't like the abruptness between throttle on & off. Too much clunk. Too much head bobbing.
As I put more miles on, I came to realize that the machine rewards smoothness and throttle control is an area where subtlety will really pay off in the form of a much more pleasant experience.
Try oozing the grip downward from acceleration, and you will experience a neutral zone where the motor is showing no power being used or generated, and then you can slowly enter the band of regeneration and control how much or how little you like in a given situation, much like the finesse you have learned when applying brakes.
I ride in Sport mode most of the time, except when I am either a) hypermiling for range or b) just in a very mellow mood and want to take everything on my ride very easy. Otherwise, I'm pretty much in streetfighter mode much of the time in San Francisco traffic and love the aggressive regen helping me brake. But easing into it with a modulated throttle (except in emergencies) does make for a more pleasant ride.
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Just did the first oil change yesterday, so I thought I will try the sport mode this morning. I didn't like how it flips between regen and power modes abruptly for street riding, so I switched it back to the normal mode after 15 miles of riding.
From all the praise I've heard about the sport mode here, am I the only one who does not like its feel for street riding?
I must admit that I leave the bike in Normal mode for daily riding duties. I'm not usually battling with traffic or running a stoplight to stoplight drag race with traffic, though. I'll even run up the mountain in Normal and just switch to Sport on the way down to get the added regen to help slow me down. Besides... if the sport bike riders can't keep up with me in Normal, what chance would they have in Sport? 8)
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I've never tried to switch while running the bike..... can we do that?
I like sport on the twisties and on the highway in heavy traffic, it allows me to slow down easily without braking much (gotta remember to tap the brakes though.... people can't see that I'm "braking") as well as accelerate quickly if needed. I use Normal on the side streets where I want to coast a little more and don't need the aggressive acceleration.
All in all I'd say 50/50 for me.
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I find sport more fun...but in city use the regen is so strong I rarely have to brake. It worries me a bit that the cars behind me might not know I'm slowing so fast without brake lights to warn them.
That said, I have been riding almost exclusively in sport lately.
I also almost always ride like a twist and go in the city. I set the bike in 1st or 2nd gear and never shift. I save that for the highway and twisties. Best of both worlds in my opinion.
I did my 3000 mile oil change a while ago.
Thanks brammoforum for the great walk through on your wiki...I don't usually do that type of work on my rides (I prefer to pay my mechanic friends to do it), but it was pretty easy and fun.
G
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I've never tried to switch while running the bike..... can we do that?
You can't switch modes "on the fly". You have to be at a stop.
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I'm in stop-n-go traffic every day, and I've finally developed the now-automatic habit of tapping the rear brake pedal 3 times quickly every time I back off the throttle into regen in Sport mode.
I had requested that feature be programmed into the software, but it's actually not that hard to learn. (Though I would still love it to be auto-programmed.)
Having been rear-ended twice on motorcycles, I've got lots of incentive!
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I second that. If the regeneration is on for more than ~1 second... The brake light goes on. Otherwise the light would be blinking like a strobe light at a KORN concert.
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I leave it in SPORT mode pretty much all the time mostly because I like the idea of regen soaking up most of what would be energy lost to friction / heat with normal braking. It would be VERY nice if regen activated the brake lights as others have mentioned. In lieu of that feature missing I think I will get used to tapping the rear brake like Shiny does. That will give my rear brakes some use too as I never use em otherwise. That said, I dont foresee the need to replace my brake pads... ever. Another advantage to riding an electric motorcycle.
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I dont foresee the need to replace my brake pads... ever. Another advantage to riding an electric motorcycle.
+1, especially driving the hills of San Francisco which eats front brake pads like popcorn at the movies. 8000 miles and mine look new. Unheard of on other bikes I've owned here.
Even on the steepest of descents of 25 to 30%, the Sport regen in 1st gear holds the Empulse to less than 20 mph.
http://www.datapointed.net/2009/11/the-steeps-of-san-francisco/ (http://www.datapointed.net/2009/11/the-steeps-of-san-francisco/)
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I'm in sport mode 100% of the time. Whenever I switch to normal my range drops. I can't explain it, but it is very predictable.
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I'm in sport mode 100% of the time. Whenever I switch to normal my range drops. I can't explain it, but it is very predictable.
It may be because you don't get off the throttle soon enough to let the longer Normal mode regen braking period occur and therefore the Sport regen recaptures more energy. I find I have to allow for a much longer "glide path" for the Normal regen to work effectively... too long to use safely when there's heavy traffic behind me.
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Actually it's most noticeable on highway runs where I'm not braking/slowing at all. The difference is a good 5 to 10% SOC after a 40 mile trip, 35 of those miles at 65mph.
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Hmm... that's an electronic puzzle that protomech and Brian may be able to solve.
In thinking what could cause this, it occurred to me that you may be unconsciously twisting the throttle more in Normal mode to achieve the acceleration you are used to feeling when in Sport mode. If so, you will obviously eat up more watts, especially at lower rpm's where the motor isn't as efficient and must draw more amps.
Just a SWAG, however.
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I really have no idea. In both modes I was trying to maximize range with no heavy handed riding. I have repeated it over and over, with sport one way, normal the other, and then switching them up. Sport always yields better range.
I will say I ride fast pretty regularly, but range is not an issue for me on 90% of my rides. I do like the acceleration and braking of sport mode much more, so I guess I have nothing to complain about.
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I really have no idea. In both modes I was trying to maximize range with no heavy handed riding. I have repeated it over and over, with sport one way, normal the other, and then switching them up. Sport always yields better range.
I will say I ride fast pretty regularly, but range is not an issue for me on 90% of my rides. I do like the acceleration and braking of sport mode much more, so I guess I have nothing to complain about.
I get pretty much the same result with my Zero S. It seems to get at least the same, if not better, "mileage" when in "Sport" mode than in its "Eco" mode. My guess is that, unless you are coasting down a steep hill (which doesn't happen too often), you use less energy traveling along with little regen effect than letting the regen over-retard your speed and then having to throttle-up to regain your speed again. I see this effect when trying to ride smoothly and extend my range as much as possible. Having a stronger regen might be better in stop-and-go city traffic, though - which is something that I try to avoid whenever possible. ;)
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Richard, your reasoning parallels what I've read when I was building an electric-assist bicycle.
The consensus was that manufacturers included regen pretty much as a sales tool, for the idea of it was "sexy" in the consumer's mind. In reality, bicycles with relatively low mass and relatively low speeds are much better off at maintaining their momentum than trying to recapture energy by braking and then having to expend more to get back up to speed. Every cyclist that routinely runs stops signs knows this.
At the other end of the spectrum, regen makes a lot of sense in electric trolleys with their huge mass.
Motorcycles with heavier mass and faster speeds are a different animal than bicycles, but I suspect that the lower speeds of hypermiling sessions may parallel the dynamics of bicycles. Under these circumstances, then, maintaining momentum trumps frequent regen.
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I'm in stop-n-go traffic every day, and I've finally developed the now-automatic habit of tapping the rear brake pedal 3 times quickly every time I back off the throttle into regen in Sport mode.
I had requested that feature be programmed into the software, but it's actually not that hard to learn. (Though I would still love it to be auto-programmed.)
Having been rear-ended twice on motorcycles, I've got lots of incentive!
Gavin, Shiny,
not sure if you like kickstarted, but this might be something that would work
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vololights/vololights-enhanced-motorcycle-visibility?ref=live (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/vololights/vololights-enhanced-motorcycle-visibility?ref=live)
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Brilliant. Just what I want. Now!
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More data on Sport vs. Normal mileage.
I traveled from South San Francisco to San Anselmo today on all back roads except from the Golden Gate Bridge to the Hwy 1 exit. On the freeway portion I kept the speed to the speed limit of 55 mph. Otherwise I tried not to exceed 35 mph and to coast/decelerate as long as I safely could before each stop. Round trip was 58.6 miles and I arrived home with 31% state of charge remaining.
Temps were from 68 to 89. I left before noon and returned around 3: 30 pm. Winds were light.
I used an identical route for both legs: 29.3 miles each way.
Using sport mode for the outbound trip, I achieved 92.2% of a mile per 1% state of charge.
Using normal mode for the return trip, I achieved 78.6% of a mile per 1% state of charge.
This is a big difference. While I don't yet understand why this is so, I'm definitely planning on using sport mode for my trip next week to Ventura California.
I'd love to hear from the rider that BrammoBrian spoke about who has achieved great hypermiling results on what mode he uses. Or from BrammoBrian for an educated guess as to why these results are the way they are. My own SWAG is that sport mode simply captures more juice in deceleration.
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For me I was doing little to no regeneration during the ride. Mine was all interstate. I would love to hear what Brammo has to say.
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Winds may have been light, but if you were riding into a(n average) 2 mph headwind one way and with a 2 mph tailwind the other that could easily make more difference than the higher regen.
Speculation, but it's also possible that the first 1% SOC represents more available energy than the last 1% SOC.
In real-world riding there will be some amount of random factors you can't control, like the winds. A bit of a pain, but riding the same route 5 times (for example) would let you smooth some of those random factors out. (though if there's a typical prevailing wind direction, then it would only smooth them out to the average prevailing wind).
Perhaps an easier repeat test would simply be to ride Normal on the outbound leg, and Sport on the return leg. This should balance out prevailing wind, higher SOC to start, etc etc.
With all of that said: I'm curious why Sport appears to be more efficient as well.
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The roads that Shiny was on, I know them well, in fact he passed within a mile of my house (next time, Bill, stop in for some tea and a bit of charge). They're mostly winding over hill and dale and through forest, and the prevailing winds such as they are tend to blow west to east, whereas his route ran north and south. Your point about replicability is still a good one, but in these circumstances the wind was probably not much of a factor.