Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: werm_works on November 04, 2012, 07:23:58 PM
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I rode it yesterday at Bartel's HD and it was fun except for that really bad chain noise that may sound like a slack but its more like a play on the tranny as if there is a significant amout of clearance between gears that it makes a clunking noise everytime you accelerate and deccelerate, I'm sure they would work on it, I just home they do before distribution instead of doing updates on the fly like on the Enertia's
Cool thing is there is no such thing as stalling, so no need to feather the clutch whatsoever or holding it down when at stop, and the funny thing too is the nuetral is found between 2nd and 3rd, I was tild the empulse really didnt need a nuetral but per DOT requirements they just had to throw a Nuetral in there and I assume they chose between 2nd and 3rd to make the 2nd gear stronger in the sense of wearing out the 2nd gear common in regular bikes were the dogs or gear wears out that it causes the 2nd to pop out and go to nuetral... Well thats just t theory...
Another not so cool for me is the use of the same instrument cluster as the enertia where if you live in CA with temps that hits 3 digits, the LCD tends to bake and just turn black, where you cant see a thing until it cools down, I recall Mr. CEO saying that they got a lot of feedback from enertia owners about what it lacks and other issues but I never recall anybody getting at me for my opinion and experiences specially coming from an enertia owner that pretty much had all parts replaced except the battery which worries my about parts prices down the line for a 17k bike but on a good note Brammo has been very good to me in terms of fixing my bike, even if my warranty expired a few months ago they still replaced my worn out parts :)
Back to the empulse.... I dont think 6 speed was necessary since I never had a need to go 6th.... On the streets staying at 1st is good enough to take you 60mph.... Top spees I took the Empulse was 96mph which most likely 91mph actual speed.
2 more lame things in my opinion is the charger not being built in or atleast had a slot somewhere to transport it with you, but its not that bulky so just bring a back pack with you, the l2 charger is the same size its just that its a 240v single phase which i hope they would give out as an option if you want l1 or l2 charger... I was told that the l2 charger would be sold for $500 without the plug, you would need to have an elextrician make a plug for you which I dlnt think is necessary since its just a simple single phase then the other lame thing which I hope they would reconsider is when your charging the bike, the park light is on and there is no way to turn it off, I was already not happy with my Enertia's cluster lights all on when charging, what more having a small parknlight im front and the tailight on when charging :(
Im sorry I just remembered one more thing... Its no biggie but I just find it
Odd that the high beam has 2 idiot lights, one on the cluster and one on the hand control 0.o
.... Hehehe 1 more again... Swing arm spool mount is not straight, it will cause tje spool to be a bit angled
Overall I like it a lot
T
Overall I still love the Empulse
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I rode it yesterday at Bartel's HD and it was fun except for that really bad chain noise that may sound like a slack but its more like a play on the tranny as if there is a significant amout of clearance between gears that it makes a clunking noise everytime you accelerate and deccelerate, I'm sure they would work on it, I just home they do before distribution instead of doing updates on the fly like on the Enertia's
Cool thing is there is no such thing as stalling, so no need to feather the clutch whatsoever or holding it down when at stop, and the funny thing too is the nuetral is found between 2nd and 3rd, I was tild the empulse really didnt need a nuetral but per DOT requirements they just had to throw a Nuetral in there and I assume they chose between 2nd and 3rd to make the 2nd gear stronger in the sense of wearing out the 2nd gear common in regular bikes were the dogs or gear wears out that it causes the 2nd to pop out and go to nuetral... Well thats just t theory...
Another not so cool for me is the use of the same instrument cluster as the enertia where if you live in CA with temps that hits 3 digits, the LCD tends to bake and just turn black, where you cant see a thing until it cools down, I recall Mr. CEO saying that they got a lot of feedback from enertia owners about what it lacks and other issues but I never recall anybody getting at me for my opinion and experiences specially coming from an enertia owner that pretty much had all parts replaced except the battery which worries my about parts prices down the line for a 17k bike but on a good note Brammo has been very good to me in terms of fixing my bike, even if my warranty expired a few months ago they still replaced my worn out parts :)
Back to the empulse.... I dont think 6 speed was necessary since I never had a need to go 6th.... On the streets staying at 1st is good enough to take you 60mph.... Top spees I took the Empulse was 96mph which most likely 91mph actual speed.
2 more lame things in my opinion is the charger not being built in or atleast had a slot somewhere to transport it with you, but its not that bulky so just bring a back pack with you, the l2 charger is the same size its just that its a 240v single phase which i hope they would give out as an option if you want l1 or l2 charger... I was told that the l2 charger would be sold for $500 without the plug, you would need to have an elextrician make a plug for you which I dlnt think is necessary since its just a simple single phase then the other lame thing which I hope they would reconsider is when your charging the bike, the park light is on and there is no way to turn it off, I was already not happy with my Enertia's cluster lights all on when charging, what more having a small parknlight im front and the tailight on when charging :(
Im sorry I just remembered one more thing... Its no biggie but I just find it
Odd that the high beam has 2 idiot lights, one on the cluster and one on the hand control 0.o
.... Hehehe 1 more again... Swing arm spool mount is not straight, it will cause tje spool to be a bit angled
Overall I like it a lot
T
Overall I still love the Empulse
Just wondering, does it have a gear indicator? Or just a green light when you get to neutral?
Does the engine "REV" when you are in neutral?
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I'm glad you got to test ride the bike and thanks for the feedback. To address a few of your concerns:
1. All motorcycle gearboxes have backlash in the transmission and drivetrain. I promise you. Go sit on a streetbike, put it in gear and rock it back and forth - Ta-Da! Backlash. In the Empulse, the feeling is a bit more pronounced due to the fact there's no engine vibration acting as "white noise", dulling your ability to isolate it from everything else. Being more precise with your throttle inputs will reduce this issue AND make you a smoother rider overall.
2. All LCD panels will eventually go black if left in direct sunlight. As a small manufacturer, Brammo simply did not have the resources required to develop and tool up an all new dash for the Empulse. That said, we did significantly revise the package versus the Enertia, requiring new software to be written, tested, and validated. I personally think that the dash is quite nice... doing well as what dashes should do - provide key information to the rider. I contrast this with some of the more "high-tech" full LCD panels on other bikes (Ducati Monster included), which do a pretty poor job IMHO.
3. Although the torque and power characteristics of the motor allow for more flexible gear selection (a definite plus), there is still a "correct" gear to be in for peak power and efficiency. Although the bike may "pull" well in any gear, you're giving up battery energy and heating the motor uneccessarily if you don't manage your gear selection. The bike has a top speed of well over 100mph - sixth gear will get you there. That's why you need it.
4. We don't falsify the speedometer display. Your indicated speed will not be off by more than a few mph.
5. The 3kW charger IS on-board. The charge cord is not. The Level 1 charge cord is meant to be left in your garage, which is why there's no spot for it on the bike. If you go to a public charging station, this part (i.e. the equivalent of the pump nozzle), is part of the charger. Level 2 cannot be wired into a plug by the definition of the standard, and to do so would violate safety standards. Level 2 is designed to be hard wired into 240Vac single-phase. This is the same way it works on a Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi iMiev, BMW Active-e, etc...
6. Brammo appreciates you as a customer. I have followed your postings and feedback here and through our service organization. Even though you don't hear from us directly, don't think we don't hear you. The Empulse is the bike it is because of all of the feedback from our Enertia customers. The Enertia was a breakthrough product at the time, but we knew it wasn't going to be good enough to just scale its technology. We had to make another breakthrough. We hope this is it...
I'm glad you still rate your experience as positive and look forward to you hopefully becoming an Empulse owner as well!
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Nice response...I probably speak for more than just myself here, but thanks for spending more time here lately...we appreciate it and it really helps us (at least me) with understanding the bikes and the tech.
People like Proto might not need it, but I sure do. Proto is smrt....
Gavin
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5. The 3kW charger IS on-board. The charge cord is not. The Level 1 charge cord is meant to be left in your garage, which is why there's no spot for it on the bike. If you go to a public charging station, this part (i.e. the equivalent of the pump nozzle), is part of the charger. Level 2 cannot be wired into a plug by the definition of the standard, and to do so would violate safety standards. Level 2 is designed to be hard wired into 240Vac single-phase. This is the same way it works on a Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi iMiev, BMW Active-e, etc...
Thanks for your responses Brian! I realized that the charger itself was on board, but whether or not T knew that, I think he was having the same reaction that I had. I very much appreciate that I could just plug the Empulse into any J1772 plug I can find, but they aren't necessarily everywhere I want to go. It is far more likely that I'll have to plug into a regular 110 socket somewhere (even at work where they provide 2 J1772 charging stations free, but the first 2 of 7 Leafs that show up in the morning already claim those and the rest use a complicated octopus of extension cords to plug in). The thing you would need to carry around to plug into a regular socket is far too bulky to just leave on the bike somewhere so you will need to bring a backpack everywhere and fill a good chunk of its space just to be able to have an emergency charging solution with you.
Contrast that to the Zeros that have on-bike carriers for their regular every-day relatively small NEMA cords and the fact that if you forgot one you could probably steal one off of a neighbor/friend's computer or unused TV in a pinch.
J1772 is a great option to have, but the fact that it is your only interface to charge the bike at all is actually reducing convenience a bit. I'd love to have a NEMA-style socket in addition to the J1772 and a nice pocket on the bike to stash a small 6 or 8 foot NEMA cord.
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I'm glad you got to test ride the bike and thanks for the feedback. To address a few of your concerns:
2. All LCD panels will eventually go black if left in direct sunlight. As a small manufacturer, Brammo simply did not have the resources required to develop and tool up an all new dash for the Empulse. That said, we did significantly revise the package versus the Enertia, requiring new software to be written, tested, and validated. I personally think that the dash is quite nice... doing well as what dashes should do - provide key information to the rider. I contrast this with some of the more "high-tech" full LCD panels on other bikes (Ducati Monster included), which do a pretty poor job to you hopeful
Ok, in Hawaii, we gots LOTS of sunlight!! All day, every day!
Is my LCD panel going to go black?
I don't have shaded parking at work,,, do I have to cover up my LCD panel with a rag or something every time I park it???
Would that even be included in the warranty repairs, if you EXPEXT it to go black???
I've only heard of good things of the repairs that you make to customers bikes, and I have the greatest faith that it will continue,,,
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This video was linked on brammo's twitter page. It shows what appears to be a gear indicator on the right side of the digital display.
A Fall Ride on a Brammo Empulse R with my wife on back. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTh3i7GkBNQ&feature=youtu.be#ws)
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It is far more likely that I'll have to plug into a regular 110 socket somewhere (even at work where they provide 2 J1772 charging stations free, but the first 2 of 7 Leafs that show up in the morning already claim those and the rest use a complicated octopus of extension cords to plug in). The thing you would need to carry around to plug into a regular socket is far too bulky to just leave on the bike somewhere so you will need to bring a backpack everywhere and fill a good chunk of its space just to be able to have an emergency charging solution with you.
Contrast that to the Zeros that have on-bike carriers for their regular every-day relatively small NEMA cords and the fact that if you forgot one you could probably steal one off of a neighbor/friend's computer or unused TV in a pinch.
J1772 is a great option to have, but the fact that it is your only interface to charge the bike at all is actually reducing convenience a bit. I'd love to have a NEMA-style socket in addition to the J1772 and a nice pocket on the bike to stash a small 6 or 8 foot NEMA cord.
I understand that the charging infrastructure is still being developed. However - I stand firmly behind our decision to use ONLY a J1772 standard charging interface. A NEMA-style cord is not appropriate for safely charging an electric vehicle. This style cord is designed for indoor and outdoor appliances, and it's use on a newly designed EV is borderline negligent in my opinion. The example you provide is one of the problems - most computer cables are not rated at the current that an EV will charge at, thus creating a hazardous condition while charging the vehicle. The use of extension cords for the same purpose are also outside of UL standards. The Empulse is a REAL electric vehicle, so it has received a REAL electric vehicle charge port and equipment approved and rated for that task.
At the moment, the Level 1 charging cordsets tend to be a bit large and bulky, owing to their origin with electric cars rather than motorcycles. I do think these cordsets will become much smaller and cheaper with time. As they fit a standard, there are multiple vendors competing, and all are compatible. I am charging an Empulse as I type this with the charge cord set I have in my garage for my Chevy Volt. Works great.
We will be releasing our Givi bag option for the Empulse shortly, which will make carrying the L1 cordset all the easier without giving up space in your backpack.
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This video was linked on brammo's twitter page. It shows what appears to be a gear indicator on the right side of the digital display.
Yes - that's the gear position indicator. This looks like a fun ride...
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Most of the riding in 2nd gear....74 mph in 3rd. Nice.
I did see an 82 in 4th...I bet that could go higher, but that road isn't a 90 mph plus road
All I could think was...wife on the back? If I was driving like that with Deanna on the back...well my Icon helmet would have a huge hole in the back in the size and shape of her fist :)
I am allowed to ride the twisties as fast as I want...when I'm alone. If she is riding with me I have to lean as little as possible...strangely I still love riding with her....
Gavin
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I understand that the charging infrastructure is still being developed. However - I stand firmly behind our decision to use ONLY a J1772 standard charging interface. A NEMA-style cord is not appropriate for safely charging an electric vehicle. This style cord is designed for indoor and outdoor appliances, and it's use on a newly designed EV is borderline negligent in my opinion. The example you provide is one of the problems - most computer cables are not rated at the current that an EV will charge at, thus creating a hazardous condition while charging the vehicle. The use of extension cords for the same purpose are also outside of UL standards. The Empulse is a REAL electric vehicle, so it has received a REAL electric vehicle charge port and equipment approved and rated for that task.
There are many standards under NEMA and most computer cords are good for well over a kw. Even if it was limited to a current below that, it would be much more useful in an emergency than finding a place to store the current J1772 adapter or having to hunt around for an installed charging station. Also, your comment about extension cords applies equally well to anything that plugs into a 110 outlet so your existing Empulse charging cable supplied with every Empulse already trips that concern.
Definitely for L2 charging you need a better system and connector, and even to max out what an unencumbered 110 household outlet might be able to supply may need better than the average extension or appliance cord provides, but a simpler cord for emergency situations does not have to charge at a high enough wattage to pose a safety hazard. Even the Leaf and Tesla can plug into a standard 110 outlet - it's all in how much you draw, not how big and "marketing hyperbolized in order to sound bigger and badder than your competition" your vehicle's battery is.
I think an L2-capable J1772 charging port is an excellent thing to have. I also think that the existing J1772 cable is probably a good solution if you are going to run that adapter at the limits of what an isolated home circuit can provide (though it should probably provide a way to limit the current further for situations where the circuits available in the garage area are weaker or are shared). But, my opinion stands that the present charging options which do not include a simpler cable for emergency lower-wattage charges represent an inconvenience in so many situations, even as the charging network builds out over the next few years.
Plotting out my recreational rides through the mountains around here, there is no "interesting" route that will either result in a round trip on a single charge or making it all the way to the next civilized area that has a J1772 plug available, requiring me to wear a backpack or install side bags just to take what should be a free and easy ride through the mountains. Not everyone has the time or marketing pull to lobby their local mountain eatery to install a J1772 charger. If I was just concerned about city riding or commuting, then J1772 is an easier find. But, did you really go to all this trouble to create a "REAL" bike that is limited to commuting duties only because it doesn't provide a charger that is convenient for back-road recharging?
Granted, this isn't the end of the world, but I find your dismissal of the issue and the substitution of "REAL" marketing terms in an attempt to distract to be a bit dismissive. I, sir, am a REAL motorcycle rider who is looking for a REAL conversation...
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I would agree that having a simple 110v plug on the bike would certainly be very convenient. However, EVs should really be using a J1772 (or other EV specific) charging port because those connectors are a lot safer. E.g. You can use them in the pouring rain without being electrocuted. I wouldn't try that with my 110v wall socket. (You also cannot ride away while you're plugged in, although that's not really an issue with the Empulse given that the socket is right in front of you.)
It's just too bad that those sockets are so bulky. Perhaps when Tesla rules the world, we'll all be using the Tesla plug, which is smaller than that J1772.
And even without a lobby to push it, those L2 chargers will be showing up more and more. Especially when the prices get down to a few hundred dollars.* Heck, you might be able to buy one for your local favorite mountainside stop in exchange for free fill ups for life. You get to fill up and they get a free charger that gets them some green credits and encourages EVs to stop by, and pollution conscience folks can travel up to the mountain for some guilt free fresh air. Everybody wins!
;D
* I wonder if a business is allowed to install a home L2 charger (like the Leviton EVB22 (http://www.amazonsupply.com/leviton-evb22-3pm-evr-green-charging-station/dp/B004G6ZSZG?ref_=bng_pf_B004G6ZSZG)) and let customers use it.
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Good stuff brian but with the backlash, Im not so sold with the explanation bit I wont argue with you :)
Im still getting the empulse sinse I know I can adapt and find its sweet spot.
In regards to chargers, will the asian market still be a l1 or wouldnit bump upntonanmedian between l1 amd l2 since they are already running 220-240?
I was going to show you guys my make shift cluster cover I made and left at work when charging but this morning my Enertia feels a bit down
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh254/jeffyyaki/0F2A7D18-42E3-46F5-8748-19B209348857-2010-000001A3EDAA3D97.jpg)
I know switching up clusters would be an expensive switch for Brammo since its already conveniently set up as an interface as well, I know VDO reps visited you guys a few moths ago because they visited us a week after you guys.
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I can vouch for the backlash point Brian made. I have noticed it in every bike that I have owned. Honda CBR F4i, Ducati 749, and Suzuki GSXR750 all had very noticeable backlash, I figured it was normal and just adjusted my throttle application to minimize it.
As far as charging plug inconvenience goes, I guess this doesnt apply to me as I only plan on charging at home 90% of the time, and perhaps at my parents house the other 10% (they are about 40 highway miles away). But I honestly dont see carrying that J1772 as that big of a deal. Even the Volt J1772 plug I have will fit in my backpack just fine (its plenty long too) and Im betting the Empulse one will be shorter and probably even more compact.
I guess we will see when I get my Empulse if these actually become real issues. Trust me, I will give my honest assessment.
(http://www.empulsebuyer.com/images/Volt_Charger.png)
Thats the J1772 charger for my Volt, it easily fits in that smallish backpack. With a laptop crammed in there along with the charger, its a bit tight, but it all still fits. The cord is 22' long.
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Good stuff brian but with the backlash, Im not so sold with the explanation bit I wont argue with you :)
Im still getting the empulse sinse I know I can adapt and find its sweet spot.
In regards to chargers, will the asian market still be a l1 or wouldnit bump upntonanmedian between l1 amd l2 since they are already running 220-240?
I know switching up clusters would be an expensive switch for Brammo since its already conveniently set up as an interface as well, I know VDO reps visited you guys a few moths ago because they visited us a week after you guys.
I'm just here to provide some technical insight that I hope is useful. You're always welcome to disagree!
You are correct on the cordset for Europe, and I would assume the same would apply to Asia if they run more similar household voltages to Europe. Basically, you get close to Level 2 charging at home with your Level 1 cordset.
I'm not aware of any VDO reps visiting us, but I'm not always involved in every meeting. We are meeting with instrument cluster suppliers for future programs, but most of those meetings will take place when our engineering representatives are in Milan at the annual EICMA motorcycle show.
I'm sorry that you've had problems with your Enertia, but glad that our commitment to fixing it has kept you interested as a customer for the Empulse. I hope your experience with your Empulse makes those problems a distant memory.
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There are many standards under NEMA and most computer cords are good for well over a kw. Even if it was limited to a current below that, it would be much more useful in an emergency than finding a place to store the current J1772 adapter or having to hunt around for an installed charging station. Also, your comment about extension cords applies equally well to anything that plugs into a 110 outlet so your existing Empulse charging cable supplied with every Empulse already trips that concern.
Definitely for L2 charging you need a better system and connector, and even to max out what an unencumbered 110 household outlet might be able to supply may need better than the average extension or appliance cord provides, but a simpler cord for emergency situations does not have to charge at a high enough wattage to pose a safety hazard. Even the Leaf and Tesla can plug into a standard 110 outlet - it's all in how much you draw, not how big and "marketing hyperbolized in order to sound bigger and badder than your competition" your vehicle's battery is.
I think an L2-capable J1772 charging port is an excellent thing to have. I also think that the existing J1772 cable is probably a good solution if you are going to run that adapter at the limits of what an isolated home circuit can provide (though it should probably provide a way to limit the current further for situations where the circuits available in the garage area are weaker or are shared). But, my opinion stands that the present charging options which do not include a simpler cable for emergency lower-wattage charges represent an inconvenience in so many situations, even as the charging network builds out over the next few years.
Plotting out my recreational rides through the mountains around here, there is no "interesting" route that will either result in a round trip on a single charge or making it all the way to the next civilized area that has a J1772 plug available, requiring me to wear a backpack or install side bags just to take what should be a free and easy ride through the mountains. Not everyone has the time or marketing pull to lobby their local mountain eatery to install a J1772 charger. If I was just concerned about city riding or commuting, then J1772 is an easier find. But, did you really go to all this trouble to create a "REAL" bike that is limited to commuting duties only because it doesn't provide a charger that is convenient for back-road recharging?
Granted, this isn't the end of the world, but I find your dismissal of the issue and the substitution of "REAL" marketing terms in an attempt to distract to be a bit dismissive. I, sir, am a REAL motorcycle rider who is looking for a REAL conversation...
I'm sorry that I've given you the impression that I'm being dismissive. My attempt is only to give insight into the background engineering (I don't work in the marketing group) decisions that have led us to where we are. I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about charging standards, and I was just hoping to clear that up.
A few points:
1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord. It does not violate any UL or safety guideline.
2. Please show me where a Telsa or Nissan Leaf can plug directly into a 110V outlet without the use of a cordset like we supply with the Empulse. I was not aware of that feature. Tesla has their own "standard" with adapters to various socket types. I agree that it is more flexible than the J1772 standard (and smaller), but ultimately not being used by charging stations outside of their own.
3. Brammo is happy to go with you to any destination along your ride to help convince them to install a charging station or at least make a Level 1 cordset available for customers. We don't have an inside connection at GreenSprings Inn. I just asked them if they had thought about it themselves and they said "yes". We just made it convenient for them to install it by donating a couple of Level 2 cordsets. We have plans to talk to the Rock Store and Alice's about doing the same thing.
Again - I apologize for offending you. I'm not sure exactly where I went astray, but it was not my intention.
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1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord.
Ahh, you will supply a cable with j1772-adapter on one end, and some std household outlet on the other? I always wondered about that part (I thougt you still need some j1772-station at home). You might want to supply more information about that on the Empulse-specification-website.
Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?
Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance :)
EDIT: minor linguistic errors.
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Here is my make shift cluster cover that works well while im charging it, my co workers labeled it the fee fee cover idk why....
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh254/jeffyyaki/811E1271-173E-4438-B770-EE1E406A7DFF-2010-000001C912E596AA.jpg)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh254/jeffyyaki/28FC1973-4F33-43A7-8239-E1A93FA175A3-2119-000001E15200B8D7.jpg)
Ok the backlash theory thinggy of mine could have probably amplified by the demo guys saying they are working on it rather than giving a simple explanation Brian did, and maybe a chain slack that intensified the feel lastly me riding my enertia more than my or my customers bikes, to be honest out of all the bikes I have ever owned the enertia is the bike I kept the longest.... Its just way too sweet
Oh hey that black charger is cool looking
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Oh yeah my enertia is back from snooze mode :D simple DH fix ;D
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I'm sorry that I've given you the impression that I'm being dismissive. My attempt is only to give insight into the background engineering (I don't work in the marketing group) decisions that have led us to where we are. I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about charging standards, and I was just hoping to clear that up.
Thanks, Brian! I do want to hear more about charging issues as well and enjoyed that part of the explanation. The part that turned me off was where you started to use "REAL" terms to make it sound like any other solution was to be ridiculed. I'd prefer to leave those kinds of ad hominem points out of the discussion as it brings the discussion down a bit.
1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord. It does not violate any UL or safety guideline.
That's fine. I'm guessing that the Enertia plug is similarly designed, but it is much more convenient than the Empulse adapter. It may not be as capable as the Enertia's J1772 socket in the bike, but if it meets safety guidelines and it has less bulk, it has improved the usefulness of the bike overall for backroads and visiting friends.
Also, part of my point is that you may design the adapter cable as much as you want, but if it ends in a 110-style plug, then you've invited any real-world issues that come from home-brewing. It's not just whether you've engineered the plug that you are giving them to push into a socket, but how well they've considered the socket they are pushing it into. Is their garage on a separate circuit? Was their garage wired for anything more than a garage door opener and an occasional electric drill? Are they using an extension cord because the only outlet was on the ceiling (for the garage door opener)? In the "REAL" world your "REAL" charging solution ends at the end of your "REAL" cord.
(And, did one of your own representatives not try to plug 2 Empulses into the same 110 outlet at a dealer's showroom right in front of me and laugh it off when the circuit breaker tripped? I was never concerned about the safety there, but the cavalier attitude definitely undercuts any statements about a "REAL" charging solution... ;)
2. Please show me where a Telsa or Nissan Leaf can plug directly into a 110V outlet without the use of a cordset like we supply with the Empulse. I was not aware of that feature. Tesla has their own "standard" with adapters to various socket types. I agree that it is more flexible than the J1772 standard (and smaller), but ultimately not being used by charging stations outside of their own.
They provide the same kind of adapter that Brammo is supplying for the Empulse. The difference is that the adapter disappears into the comparatively vast storage space provided by a car, but on the Empulse I'm having to buy a bigger backpack to accommodate it. A smaller vehicle can't really pull off the "stow this giant plug somewhere for convenience" trick as effortlessly as a car. But, it can pull off a small storage pocket or chamber for a NEMA-style cord for a lower wattage emergency charge to get me to the next J1772 station. The Leaf manual refers to using a 110 outlet as a "trickle charge" and mentions that it is not meant for a day to day charging solution (and its battery is only 2.5 times the size of the Empulse battery).
3. Brammo is happy to go with you to any destination along your ride to help convince them to install a charging station or at least make a Level 1 cordset available for customers. We don't have an inside connection at GreenSprings Inn. I just asked them if they had thought about it themselves and they said "yes". We just made it convenient for them to install it by donating a couple of Level 2 cordsets. We have plans to talk to the Rock Store and Alice's about doing the same thing.
That's fantastic news, thank you! Alice's is one of the places I'd like to see a L2 charger. Right now the only charging opportunity there is a hidden 110 outlet that one of the local riders spotted, but a nice charging station like the GreenSprings unit would help improve the visibility of electric bikes in the area since they could use it front and center and provide a focus for talking points.
Boulder Creek is also a popular back-roads biker destination around here with likely no L2 charging stations in its near future, though it is more of a community than Alice's.
Again - I apologize for offending you. I'm not sure exactly where I went astray, but it was not my intention.
I wasn't at all offended, but when I'm faced with a company that fills its public information streams with race results and pictures of scantily clad models I'm starved for real information like we get here. If this information stream becomes another conduit for "he-man macho sound bites" then I just feel like it isn't going to help me make a decision and I'll turn elsewhere to decide if I'd rather get an Empulse or a '13 Zero. And, I do get a kick out of a lot of the random musings and race coverage I see, I just don't see those pieces as helping me make any decision or improving my perception of these machines for my own needs and uses...
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1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord.
Ahh, you will supply a cable with j1772-adapter on one end, and some std household outlet on the other? I always wondered about that part (I thougt you still need some j1772-station at home). You might wish to supply more information about that on the Empulse-specification-website.
It's buried at the bottom of the Empulse specifications page (http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/).
Recharge J1772 Level I and II
110V AC to J1772 Level 1 Adapter included
I agree re: wishing for an easily-stowable NEMA plug on the Empulse.
J1772 is an excellent (if bulky) interface, and rollout is already in progress. Huntsville has 6 publicly accessible J1772 outlets that I'm aware of, up from 3 last year. But this is dwarfed by the number of publicly accessible 110v outlets.
NEMA (as on the Enertia) may not be an ideal interface. But a general truth is that the best tool is the one that you have. If you don't carry the J1772 cable with you, then it is useless if you need to charge in the field.
A current-limiter on the charger would be a helpful feature when plugging in to a suspect outlet, regardless of whether the NEMA plug comes from the J1772 inlet or an IEC inlet - I tripped a breaker once with the Zero charger, and that will only pull around 8A.
Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?
I would also be curious as to the suitability of the Empulse batteries for CHAdeMO (or other fast DC) charging. Charging rates offered by CHAdeMO are on the verge of offering trips with zero charging penalty, when combined with an aerodynamic single track vehicle (100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph = 7:1 ride:charge ratios).
Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance :)
The largest of the 2013 Zeros charges at ~10 kW at the pack, vs ~3 kW for the Empulse and ~1 kW for the 2013 Zero Level 1. 30A J1772 will happily supply ~7 kW, and the spec supports rates up to 80A (~19 kW).
Faster chargers are heavier, and more expensive - there's a weight and cost tradeoff for batteries vs fast chargers. Here's an example combined charger/control system, Netgain's Pulsar:
http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php (http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php)
* 24 kW AC charging (240V 100A), J1772 compatible, up to 150 kW DC level 3
* motor controller supports up to 370V battery pack, 500A (185 kW)
* liquid cooled
* 34 pounds (not including liquid, radiator, fans, tubing)
* 18.5x14.5x5.5 inches
In comparison, here's the 2012 Zero's discrete charger and controller:
* Sevcon Gen 4 Size 4 controller, 8.9x6.6x3.1 inches, around 10 pounds
* DeltaQ QuiQ 1 kW charger, 11x9.7x4.3 inches, around 13 pounds
Better size comparison:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/35769-Netgain-Pulsar-vs-Sevcon-Size-4-vs-Delta-Q-QuiQ-DCI (http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/35769-Netgain-Pulsar-vs-Sevcon-Size-4-vs-Delta-Q-QuiQ-DCI)
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Here is where I charge my Zero when I ride to to Alice's Restaurant. I plug it into a small boxed outlet sitting on the ground, with a GFI button, that many years ago used to provide power for a telephone booth. I understand that the outlet is owned by Alice's and its power gets added to their electrical bill. Having the on-board electrical cord stuffed into a hole in the frame of my Zero is very convenient, but since the charging rate is only 900 watts, it takes about three hours of charging to replenish my battery pack after the 30 mile ride to the Restaurant from my home on the coast. On the other hand, I haven't tripped Alice's breaker with that charging rate, so that is a good thing and keeps me in their good graces - along with a nice tip at breakfast.
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Hi Richard,
I was referring to you when I pointed out the "hidden" charger at Alice's. It's actually not that hidden, but it is over to the side and if you didn't spot the power cord coming out of Richard's bike into the outlet you wouldn't realize that anything odd was going on. A purpose built charger would be more visible and might attract some welcome attention to the advancing state of EV motorcycles.
In terms of charge rates, my main concern is not that I'll charge up to full at Alice's or Boulder Creek, but whether I can get enough charge there over, say, lunch or breakfast that I can make a full ride through all of those mountains rather than just a quick trip to Alice's and back. With the current range of the Empulse and the '13 Zeros I "might" make it all the way over the hill to Santa Cruz which is the first opportunity in those hills to find a J1772 station, but it will be hard to know until I try it and see how thirsty my right wrist is in the hills and curves. And, the first time will be much less stressful if I know that there are a few places I can charge my way out of a jam along the way (taking a backpack along as insurance for the test rides would be fine, though, and I may discover I can leave it at home if the bike can make it all the way to SC in one charge, but I'll have to spend a good 3 hours there to make it back even with a L2 charging station). And, if I can't make it all the way on one charge, then the adapter in the backpack would become a permanent part of my weekend getaway fun. (cue in the theme music for "First World Problems"...)
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When the details on the Empulse dropped, I was a bit bummed by the inclusion of only the J1772 plug on board. Being able to plug into a household outlet is critical with my Enertia. Then I started thinking about why I'm getting the Empulse and how it's going to change my habits.
I've got a short commute to the office, but on two days a week, I have to make a 50 mile (round trip), high-speed midday trip to campus. The Enertia won't make it. Sure, it would make it to campus, but I'm only there for 2 hours and that's not enough charging time to get me back to the office.
So for those two days, I ride my REAL motorcycle which is my current gasser. As much as I hype my Enertia, it's hard for me to consider it a real motorcycle with it's current limitations. It's sure as hell not a scooter or ebike.
When I read Brian's comments, that's exactly what I thought he meant. The Empulse is a real motorcycle compared to the Enertia and Zero's similar, older offerings. The Empulse is going to replace all of my motorcycling needs except touring/camping. And since I'm going to be using it for the same commuting as my gasser, I need to be able to get to campus and back quick. Furthermore, I need to get that thing charged during those few hours at the office before or after the midday jaunt. The pack on the Empulse is so large, that a level 1 really wouldn't cut it for my midday charging.
I also thought about those unforseen cases. Then I realized that having a NEMA cord on hand for emergencies could easily turn into a many hour wait. With the Enertia it was different. With it's reduced range, a 10% miscalculation on my part is only 4 miles. That's not long on a 110v outlet. A 10% miscalculation on an Empulse could be 12 miles, which is a lot longer at level 1. After living a few years with range anxiety, I've learned that it will be a very rare occasion that I'm stuck without a charge. And if I ever think I'll be cutting it close, I'll pack the cord set.
I'm perfectly happy with a J1772 plug on board and a cord set for a household outlet. I plan to charge level 1 at home. I'm lucky enough that I can charge at level 2 at the office if I need to. For those weird situations where I head someplace where I'll need a level 1, then I'll pack it along with me. I'll probably end up getting a tailbag for it to keep rain gear. It will have room for the cord set. But I definitely won't have it in there all the time.
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Cool thing is there is no such thing as stalling, so no need to feather the clutch whatsoever or holding it down when at stop, and the funny thing too is the nuetral is found between 2nd and 3rd, I was tild the empulse really didnt need a nuetral but per DOT requirements they just had to throw a Nuetral in there and
My last post had me thinking about running out of charge. I've almost done it on my Enertia, and in that case I'd just push it. It coasts OK, but probably not as good as the Empulse in Neutral. So there's a use for neutral. Of course, I sure as hell don't want to push it up hill for long.
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I test rode the Empulse R last week at Scuderia in SF. I wasn't able to cut loose with it. Mostly city streets riding with one short burst of speed and one nice set of twisties. But I came off of it with a big grin and hugely impressed.
The acceleration and the handling make this an absolute blast to ride. It's like those guys in the promo video say, lay the Empulse into a turn and feeling no engine vibrations dulling the interface between rider and road, really enhances the riding experience. You can say it's better or worse performance-wise than something like a Street Triple, but no gas bike gives you that same sensation.
I thought the chassis were quite good. Overall, the bike is smaller and more nimble than I imagined it would be. Generally it all seems very high quality, you do feel like you're on an elite machine.
The "backlash" wasn't an issue for me. It's noticeable, and not quite like what I've felt on any gas bike, but so what . . . it's just a slightly clunking when starting from a stop.
If I had no electric motorcycle right now, I'd get an Empulse. But my Enertia has served me so well for the past year as a commuter, it just makes sense for me to wait a while. There's some nice Marin roads that I could have fun on within one charge starting from my house. But it would still be primarily a commuter, and so dumping the Enertia for the Empulse would be mostly gratuitous.
Test ride done, I can say for sure that there's an Empulse in my future, probably a year or so down the road.
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Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?
Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance :)
EDIT: minor linguistic errors.
We are aware of the Chademo standard, but it's not gotten as much traction here in the US as the charge station itself is very expensive compared to a Level 2 charge station. The connector for Chademo is also enormous, and presents some fundamental packaging challenges.
(http://www.evnut.com/images/chargers/public_charging/vaca_fast_charge/10052011DC_fast.jpg)
The Chademo standard is being challenged by the SAE J1772 combo connector for world dominance and we are essentially waiting to see which is the winner. Typically, lithium-ion batteries can retain good cycle life if charged below .5C (i.e. in 2 hours). Most chemistries can accept a charge rate of 1C (1 hour) with some effect on cycle life. Charge rates of 2C (30 minutes) are possible with a larger impact to battery health, heating, and balance. With these high charge rates, you eliminate the "float" portion of the charge and do not allow the cells to balance. Over time, this will degrade your pack faster than a nice .5C charge rate...
There are other concerns as well... for example, charging at 2C creates roughly the same heat as discharging at 2C, so if you just completed a spirited ride on a hot day and got the battery system hot and then attempt to charge at a Chademo station, you'll most likely find that the current is limited (by the vehicle's control unit) anyways as the pack needs to cool down first... I don't mention this to say that challenges can't be overcome, just an attempt to sensitize those who think it's as simple as wiring on a Chademo interface.
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A) dang that thing is HUGE...(and no, "that's what she said" jokes please)
B) With the Enertia I always carried the cord...and used it a lot on rides. I would charge any time I was stopped to eat or shop...the extra miles, even if just a couple, really helped.
With the Plus I still carried the cord (it fits under the seat, so why not), but I rarely used it on the road....only on longer trips.
So if I bought an Empulse, I imagine I would not carry a plug for daily riding, and either throw it in my messages bag or a tail bag for those weekend rides...or wear it wrapped fron shoulder to hip like some feral desert rider in a Road Warrior movie..."When the gas is gone, one man rides..." Eh, sucks as a movie tag, but get that movie voice over guy and it will sound right...
Gavin
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(http://brammoblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/road-warrior_edited-1.jpg)
gavin
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lol. Nice, Gavin.
SAE combo charger exists mostly as a fresh-off-the-presses finalized spec. CHAdeMO has a relatively significant install base in Europe and Japan, and is the only standard DC quick charger supported by shipping vehicles. I think we'll see that balance shift some in the next couple of years; GM has stated that they were waiting for the SAE combo charger to support quick charging, and I would guess Honda / Ford are in the same boat. (As an aside, is it possible to use a combo charger plug to charge an "early" J1772 vehicle without the combo port? The DC plug looks like it would intrude in most current vehicles, eg Nissan Leaf and Empulse).
1C charge is plenty fast for charging at any dining establishment, eg the Cracker Barrels across TN that support CHAdeMO. > 1C charging is primarily important for touring applications IMO. Balancing is less of a concern if you're charging from something like 20% to 80% ... and heat is less of a concern esp. with aero fairings as the battery discharge is quite low.
Eg imagine an aero fairing touring bike, say 20 kWh ~100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph (7 kW or 0.35C discharge). Discharge from 80% to 20% (12 kWh) yields 120 miles range, requires 103 minutes. 2C charge from 20% to 80% would require approximately 18 minutes (roughly 1 hour riding per 10 minutes charging).
We're not far off that at the very expensive end today - Lightning claims a 22 kWh large pack option for their superbike, and they claim 120 Wh/mile on the highway (maybe with their LSR fairing?) .. and the Monotracer also has a similarly large pack (20 kWh, 180 mile range @ 75 mph).
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imagine an aero fairing touring bike, say 20 kWh ~100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph (7 kW or 0.35C discharge). Discharge from 80% to 20% (12 kWh) yields 120 miles range, requires 103 minutes. 2C charge from 20% to 80% would require approximately 18 minutes (roughly 1 hour riding per 10 minutes charging).
And here you have 95% of the motorcycle community. Most people never exceed that. I'm more than willing to do a long road trip on my bike but after 120 miles I'd like to take a leak and get a coffee or a bite to eat so that would work perfectly. I'm just envisioning all the truck stops in north america having a handful of chargers out front with electric cruisers parked at them while bikers sit inside refueling themselves.
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imagine an aero fairing touring bike, say 20 kWh ~100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph (7 kW or 0.35C discharge). Discharge from 80% to 20% (12 kWh) yields 120 miles range, requires 103 minutes. 2C charge from 20% to 80% would require approximately 18 minutes (roughly 1 hour riding per 10 minutes charging).
And here you have 95% of the motorcycle community. Most people never exceed that. I'm more than willing to do a long road trip on my bike but after 120 miles I'd like to take a leak and get a coffee or a bite to eat so that would work perfectly. I'm just envisioning all the truck stops in north america having a handful of chargers out front with electric cruisers parked at them while bikers sit inside refueling themselves.
yep...this...when I do a long ride I am A) either with a group of people and we stop a lot (scooters usually have small tanks...and scooterist smaller bladders) or am B) going alone and don't mind stopping and getting a bite to eat...or stopping and checking out the town...or stopping and just staring at the sky...
If I can get a touring/city bike that goes 120 miles on the highway (so 200 in the city), I would be a happy boy...over kill for the city, but good range for going from "gas stop to gas stop"....
maybe in a few years...
(ps...need a touring tester Brammo? oh boy can I do some long distance riding. :) )
Gavin
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Faster chargers are heavier, and more expensive - there's a weight and cost tradeoff for batteries vs fast chargers. Here's an example combined charger/control system, Netgain's Pulsar:
http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php (http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php)
* 24 kW AC charging (240V 100A), J1772 compatible, up to 150 kW DC level 3
* motor controller supports up to 370V battery pack, 500A (185 kW)
* liquid cooled
* 34 pounds (not including liquid, radiator, fans, tubing)
* 18.5x14.5x5.5 inches
In comparison, here's the 2012 Zero's discrete charger and controller:
* Sevcon Gen 4 Size 4 controller, 8.9x6.6x3.1 inches, around 10 pounds
* DeltaQ QuiQ 1 kW charger, 11x9.7x4.3 inches, around 13 pounds
Better size comparison:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/35769-Netgain-Pulsar-vs-Sevcon-Size-4-vs-Delta-Q-QuiQ-DCI (http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/35769-Netgain-Pulsar-vs-Sevcon-Size-4-vs-Delta-Q-QuiQ-DCI)
Ahh, here's the one I was looking for.
BRUSA has a 22 kW AC charger, NLG6 (http://www.brusa.biz/index.php?id=334&L=1&id=334). Pretty sure Volvo is trialing this (http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/05/new-volvo-22-kw-fast-charger-drops-recharge-time-to-90-minutes/) in their C30 EVs now.
* 22 kW AC charging (240V 96A 3 phase), J1772 compatible (but 16A max for J1772? not sure how they're charging 3 phase)
* liquid cooled
* 26 pounds
* 19.8x13.9x3.3 inches
About twice the volume and weight of the Zero's 1 kW charger. The BRUSA charger is more suitable for higher voltage 300-400v packs like the race bikes or EV cars.. but still, there are new options opening up for onboard chargers.
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Proto - maybe you can answer this. My impression is that bulky on-board chargers are only really needed for AC charging, but that DC charging requires very little on board - which would be a big boon for smaller EVs like motorcycles.
But, perhaps I'm misinformed and you still need quite a bit of circuitry and heat sink even if you are charging from DC? How much volume and weight would supporting Chademo (or similar DC charging) add to the vehicle?
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I believe it's just a small control board and the inlet. Probably a couple pounds and minimal volume.
Here's an project to build an open CHAdeMO interface:
http://code.google.com/p/open-chademo/ (http://code.google.com/p/open-chademo/)
You definitely would want to monitor the battery temperature closely.
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Interesting discussion - my Leaf can charge via 120V (NEMA), 240V (J1772), or the 480V CHAdeMO charging. I had trouble getting an electrician to install a new, separate circuit for my J1772 plug, so I did it myself. It really wasn't difficult. The charging unit (LeGrand) cost $500, the wire/circuit breaker, etc., was another $100.
The whole chicken/egg thing is a pain - if the infrastructure were in place - more people would buy EVs. If more people had EVs the demand would spur infrastructure growth. Meanwhile, it would be nice to have a backup option of 120V charging. Of course Nissan has much more space on their cars for various charging options.
Getting back to the test ride - I'm curious about the transmission - how did it compare to riding an electric bike without a transmission?
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Getting back to the test ride - I'm curious about the transmission - how did it compare to riding an electric bike without a transmission?
I've only test ridden the 2012 Zero and I very much enjoyed the no-shift, silent, magic carpet feeling of a belt drive and no tranny. But I missed the off-the-line acceleration I've come to depend on during my all-day on-the-job use in San Francisco. When I've squeezed in between the lanes and worked my way up to a stoplight, I don't want to have to guess if I can shoot out in front of my neighbors when the light turns green.
The Empulse test ride removed that drawback.
I didn't shift it much (1st is good to 60 mph) but I found that the tranny did, as Craig has indicated, restore the sense of a "real motorcycle" to the ride experience. More than anything I appreciated the considerable "engine braking" when downshifting. The regen in 1st is considerable and is gonna save me a bundle in brake pads.
I'm sure the shifting will feel even more appropriate once I get out outside the confines of the city streets of my test ride. Can't wait!