Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: FreepZ on September 19, 2011, 12:33:26 PM
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Check out the Zero connected to the charging stating with an SAE J1772.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/296067_374541424962_97687554962_1389889_770796784_n.jpg)
Looking at Zero's website (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=122&zenid=opm5j9ivhkgp3esmv4mc7nmme7), it appears that the J1772 is optional (and costs $500).
Brammo bikes only come with a standard (NEMA 5) wall plug, right? Will there be any way to have some kind of adapter to plug in a J1772? I would think that there are going to be more and more charging locations that have the J1772 connector rather than some wall socket. J1772's are safer than standard NEMA 5 plugs (e.g. you can safely connect one while it's raining).
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I don't think it likely that an adapter would be able to get approval since the J1772 seems to require proximity detection per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772). It looks like there are people making them but I don't know if SAE would be willing to allow an official version.
That socket is also large enough they'd need to include it in early design. The current charging socket is under the seat on an Enertia and I don't think that would work for J1772 charging (which would require leaving the seat off while charging).
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The photo of the Zero and the link to the J1772 option on their website raises more questions than it answers. Is it truly Level 2 charging going on? I see three pins in the picture of the charging socket on the Zero website, where the sockets I've seen on, for instance, the Smith Electric Vehicle trucks have all 5 pins visible. Is this, possibly, 120 volt charging, but the connection just allows you to use the J1772 chargers?
Why am I so suspicious? Because, if it was truly Level 2 charging going on, Zero would be the first electric motorcycle offering it as an option. And, if as Richard keeps on insisting, these guys really know how to promote their products, where was the press release on this? There wasn't one.
If, on the other hand, this is just a way of using the J1772-equipped charge stations to charge your electric motorcycle, and it's a glorified adapter, then say so, clearly, on your website.
And if you're wondering whether I'd hold Brammo to the same standard, the answer is yes.
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(http://www.trix.com/GroundLoop/Leaf-power-ports.jpg)
J1772 on the right, Nissan Leaf.
The 3 major pins that you see are two legs of AC 110V and ground. The other two pins, which you can barely make out on the Zero connector, are for proximity and control. They look like they're more recessed than the power pins.
It's entirely possible that their onboard charger is < 1.5kw and uses 120v. However, Zero claims on the spec page (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php):
Charge time (standard) 4 hours
Quick charge time (option) 2.3 hours (100% charged) / 2 hours (90+% charged)
Input Standard 110V or 220V
Looks like a 1kw charger standard, and 2kw charging as the optional upgrade.
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Thanks protomech... that helps.
The "quick charge time (option)" is an accessory that appears to be independent from the J1772 socket. It is another $499 and appears to be a "second charger". I'm not sure if you then hook up both the original onboard charger and the second charger, or if the second charger replaces the original one, or what.
I guess we should go to the Zero Owners Forum to find the answers to these and other questions.
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You're right, the copy indicates that the quick charge is a second offboard power charger used in conjunction with the onboard charger. Each charger can supply up to 1kw, so the 2 hour 2kw charge requires both.
This is the offboard quick charger they sell.
http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml (http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml)
This charger, or perhaps the -dci version (integrated 12VDC converter) is the onboard charger installed on their bikes.
2011 Zero XU (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/high-res-photos/photo.php?bl&img=2011:2011_zero-xu_detail_charger)
2011 Zero S (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/high-res-photos/photo.php?bl&img=2011:2011_zero-s_studio_black-rp)
2011 Zero DS (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/high-res-photos/photo.php?bl&img=2011:2011_zero-ds_studio_white-rp)
Both chargers have the same input specs, 120 VAC / 230 VAC rms nominal and the same 1kw power output. Not sure what the Zero's battery voltage is, 58v? Odd. So the Zero's J1772 connector likely only charges at 1kw, though it may be slightly more efficient at 220v.
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Even if the bike could only charge at 110v, would still like to have a J1772 (provided it's not crazy expensive). When I'm in public, I would feel a lot less guilty sucking power off an official charging station, with it's J1772 connector, rather than surreptitiously plugging into some wall socket.
However, if it would cost $500 just to get a nice adapter without any improved charging time, I think my avaricious side would overcome any feelings of guilt and I would just use the 110 wall socket. :P
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Some of these charging stations, Coulomb comes to mind, come with dual power options. There is a cord for the J1772 power, and also a door opens with access to a 120V outlet.
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Some of these charging stations, Coulomb comes to mind, come with dual power options.
True. However, the two charging stations that I have seen so far (one outside Orlando City Hall, the other at a Nissan dealership) only appeared to have J1772. Since that's a standard that most EVs seem to be adopting, I wouldn't be surprised to see that showing up all over the place.
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There are companies that sell "cheater boxes" for the J1772 plug.
Does anyone know which charger is going to be installed on the bike? 1kW makes me think its a QuiQ charger.
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I think it is the QuiQ by Delta-Q. Here's some info from the postings over on elmoto.net:
Ahh, that's what they're doing. The J1772 is one kit, the Quick charge kit is another charger.... offboard from what I see?
With just the J1772 connector, you can use the charging station J1772, which has both L1 and L2 charging..... but still get 1000W.
With the J1772 connector + quick charging kit, you can use the L2 ability of the J1772 connector and get 2000W.
I just don't see how you'd fit bith chargers onboard the bike.
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Then...
The Zero S has the built in charger for Level 1 charging. The J1772 port only supports level one charging. For level 2 charging you need to plug the second off-board charger into the auxiliary charger input. Using both the on-board charger + off-board charger = Level 2 charging.
Although there is no place to mount the second charger to the bike for on-board Level 2 charging, I don't see this as being prohibitively difficult. As of now, it is a moot point since Level 2 charging stations, or any charging stations are still few and far between... but we're working on that.
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I would be very happy if there was a kit for an off board charger. This could also be used as a quick charge circuit for track days with some cable size increases.
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Talked with the Hollywood Electric folks about the Zero S's J1772.
It's 120V level 1 charging only Edit: I may have misunderstood this. The onboard charger is 1kw, so it will pull about 8A from the J1772 port, same as the cable that you plug into a standard 120V / 15A socket.
You actually don't need two dedicated circuits to use the quickcharger (2x 1 kw chargers), as they will pull 15-16A and max out one 120V circuit. Two circuits might improve charge speed very slightly.
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If Level 2 charging with J1772 was available for the Empulse (240V 15A, 3.3kw), it should enable 2h charge times for Empulse 6.0, 3h charge times for Empulse 10.0. Basically, recharge 30 miles of range per hour.
Speculation follows.
Here's a 3.3 kw charger from Delta-Q:
http://www.delta-q.com/products/qmx3_3.html (http://www.delta-q.com/products/qmx3_3.html)
273 x 200 x 100 mm, 6.2 kg // 10.7" x 7.9" x 3.9", 13.6 lbs
Here's a 3.3 kw charger from Brusa:
http://www.brusa.eu/index.php?id=154&L=1 (http://www.brusa.eu/index.php?id=154&L=1)
255 x 250 x 88.5 mm, 6.2 kg // 10.0" x 9.8" x 3.5", 13.6 lbs
Compare to the 1kw charger from Delta-Q:
http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml (http://www.delta-q.com/products/quiq.shtml)
280 x 246 x 110 mm, <5 kg // 11" x 9.7" x 4.3", <11 lbs
The Zero S uses the 1 kw QuiQ. I don't know what Brammo uses in the Enertia, but it's likely somewhat similar. A 3.3 kw charger is not significantly larger than the Delta-Q 1kw charger, but it is slightly heavier.
The main problem with the two 3.3 kw chargers I linked is that they have a minimum of 200 volt output, appropriate for a > 16 kwh car but not for a smaller bike. The Empulse is in the 88-110 v range (depending on configuration), which is far too low to be charged by these chargers.
Someone may produce a lower-voltage 3.3kw charger. Or Brammo may have the time, money and technical chops to develop one in-house. Regardless, packaging may be a non-consideration but the extra weight and expense may make inclusion as standard equipment dicey.
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Since bikes are very tight on packaging space, ideally you could use a setup like AC Propulsion that utilizes the IGBT's and cooling system from the motor controller to act as a charger since both do not operate at the same time. This saves on space/weight by making dual purpose power electronics. However I also know Brammo is going after costs and understand whats associated with that.
I don't see a 3kW charger fitting anywhere on a sport bike to be honest. A 2.5kW charger from ElCon might be reasonable, but they are already too far into development to package that on board.
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After a bit more research, I'm pretty sure Brammo is not using a delta Q charger for their on board charging. I believe it is a home brew device since they needed tighter packaging space.
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In the comments section at the end of this post on ashpaltandrubber.com BrammoBrian finally spills the beans on the J1772 charging:
The 2012 Empulse will incorporate a J1772 charging outlet which will allow for both Level 1 (120Vac household) and Level 2 (220Vac single phase)charging. The charge time on Level 2 will be approximately 3.5 hours.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/brammo-empulse-testing-six-speed-gearbox/)
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Thanks for the link oobflyer. J1772 on the Empulse is fantastic news!
There's a discussion going on about that in the Off Topic section.
Empulse will have J1772! Woo!
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This is Great! Now I can fill up at work without having to steal my own outlet.
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Home Depot is selling a $800 J1772 charging station. It's a 30A station so it will scale up to work with the 6kw chargers in the newer EVs (Coda, Focus EV).
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electric-vehicle-charging-station-248150.html (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electric-vehicle-charging-station-248150.html)
And Lowes has a $1000 J1772 30A station that can be mounted indoors or outdoors.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_107343-76863-EVWSWBC-CP01_0__ (http://www.lowes.com/pd_107343-76863-EVWSWBC-CP01_0__)
These stations are still overpriced, they honestly should be down in the $200-300 range. As they start to ship in higher volumes prices should drop substantially.
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Yeah, when we put in our swimming pool we also updated our electrical box (went from 100A box to 200A)...At the time I had them run new 30 amp wire from the box to my garage...that outlet is just sitting there waiting for something like this...
Now the question...J1772 on the Empulse....what about the Enertia Plus?
Gavin
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Probably not if Brammo is trying to hit a $9000 price point with the Enertia Plus.
I expect the Zeros will pick up J1772 next year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Brammo update the Enertia Plus sooner or later to J1772.
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Yeah....plus if/when I get a J1772 plug it will likely be for an electric car...a standard outlet still works fine at charging the Enertia...the Plus, though twice the time, will still be fine to charge at 110 overnight.
Gavin
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I'm interested in this piece of equipment for several applications.
Would someone be so kind as to look at the specs of this solar power generator and tell me if this would be sufficient enough to charge the Empulse?
http://www.solarstik.com/sites/default/files/solar_stiktm_recon_pak_li_spec_sheet.pdf (http://www.solarstik.com/sites/default/files/solar_stiktm_recon_pak_li_spec_sheet.pdf)
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Short answer: No. The power produces too little energy per day to charge the Empulse for anything but very light use, and the inverter does not produce enough power to charge the Empulse without blowing a fuse.
Energy
The two panels together put out about 120W under direct sunlight. The best case scenario is good summer day in an excellent solar area like southern california where you might get 8-10 hours of direct sunlight, giving you as much as 1-1.2 kWh of stored energy. Since the built-in battery has only a 0.6 kWh storage capacity, you lose anything over that amount if you do not draw out while charging. 1.2 kWh will charge the Empulse for about 10 miles of moderate riding. In the winter time you would have enough energy to take you 2-3 miles at best.
Power
The powerpak has 12V DC and USB outputs. There is an accessory DC to AC inverter rated at 180 W continuous and 300 W surge. Since the Empulse will probably pull up to 10-15A on 120V or 1.2-1.8 kW, it will blow the inverter's fuse unless it can be dialed back down.
The PowerPak looks pretty rugged, it's a nice off-grid portable solution for low-power devices like laptops, small refrigeraters, small area lighting. It is way undersized for vehicle charging, and looking at their prices you'll pay out the nose for a vehicle-sized power source.
The cheapest way to build solar is to choose a grid-tied fixed solar installation. Parts costs are $2-3 per watt, installation can be much higher. Here in North AL we receive 4.5 hours-equivalent of sunlight averaged over the year. The Empulse needs around 120 Wh per "moderate" mile to charge, so I need about 27W of panel per mile I plan to charge per day. If I figure 30 miles per day is my reasonable distance, then I need about 700W (3x 230W) of panels which will run about $2000 + installation. In this case I'm using the power grid as the storage device, I pump energy in during the day as the panels operate and pull energy out when I plug in the bike. I am SOL if I lose grid power, which we did for about four days last April when tornadoes rolled through.
Next down the list is grid-tied solar with battery backup. If I lose grid-power then it will switch over to a battery backup; batteries will be charged during the day. 30 miles is about 3.6 kWh to charge, I would probably overbuild to power the house as well. A 240V off-grid system (http://www.wholesalesolar.com/grid-tie-to-off-grid.html) with 3 kW (options to expand to 4.4 kW) system output and 9.6 kWh of battery backup is available from wholesalesolar.com for about $7k.
Next down on the list is portable solar with battery backup, essentially a portable power grid. This is the solarstik kits, and they range from expensive to horrendously expensive.
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It might work.
"Breakers: 100 amp Master circuit breaker / 50 amp load circuit breaker / 25 amp charge circuit breaker (AC & DC)"
Which implies to me that the battery pack can manage more than 12-15 amps that the bike will take.
Disclaimer: I'm no electrical engineer, so I may be blowing smoke here.
If it did work, it would be very slow.
"The Recon Pak can generate up to 0.9 kW-h of electrical energy in just a few hours with good sunlight."
The Empulse uses about 1 kW-h to travel 10 miles, so (assuming that "few" means about 3) your charge rate is going to be about 3 miles per hour (or less). I.e. it would be faster to walk!
Also you might have to charge the Power Pak first, and then charge the bike from the Power Pak.
Once you get your bike, it would be interesting if you could get a demo and just try it out. Even if it's very slow, that setup may be just the thing for going camping, provided that you don't intend on traveling more than 10h x 3mph = 30 miles per day (and that's being optimistic).
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Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.
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Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.
Over the past few years I have become a very buy american type of guy. I am glad the Empulse is being built in the states too... will go nicely with my Tesla Model X that we plan on buying, but right now, it will go nicely with my Cruze Eco. :) BTW, if your ever looking into a grid tied system, why not check out my solar pv calculator: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php)
Shameless plug, i know... not that I make any money on this stuff.
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You are always
everyone welcome to plug your site, Empulsebuyer. :)
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk (which explains the incorrect autocorrect)
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Thanks for taking the time to look over that...
I came across these products with the intention of a having something in the event of a hurricane, camping trip, tailgating, and wondered which product would be sufficient enough to charge the bike (even if it is a slow charge). I believe you can have up to 5 Flexi-panels with a couple of the different models. Solar Stik is somewhat expensive but may be reasonable if you get a demo model or clearance item. Besides, when I was a teen I seem to remember some government propaganda about "Buy American". So now when shopping for big items like the Solar Stik, Empulse, Model S, "Buy American" seems to be the patriotic thing to do in a bad economy and is definitely part of my decision process.
rambling ahead
Honestly, the recon pak looks pretty cool. It's rugged and self-contained, and for low-power or intermittent usage it's probably a better choice than a generator. Certainly much quieter and cleaner, and there's no need to resupply fuel - perfect for long stationary camping trips, and definitely better than nothing in case of a true emergency where fuel is unavailable.
However, consider:
* you need a lot of space to spread out the solar panels. Panels are approximately 5' x 3.5', times five.
* the total energy available per day is heavily dependent upon clear sunny conditions, and depending on location may be substantially lower during the winter.
* total energy storage is approximately 15% what you can generate on a nice sunny summer day with five panels. more power paks can help, of course, but add weight and cost. chances are good that you won't be able to store all the energy you can produce in a good day.
* solarstik seems to be targeting the military. their products are going to be expensive.
With a 50A breaker, you can probably pull up to a maximum of 500W safely from the box.
If you connect 3 more panels then you probably can pull in 300W in direct sunlight. The charging circuit has a 50A breaker, it likely charges the battery at 14V or so. With 5 panels attached you should be able to charge the battery in approximately 90 minutes.
Suppose you can hook up the 5 panels and a 500W inverter (http://www.amazon.com/SOLAR-PI5000X-Power-Inverter-Outlet/dp/B003XPU7SE/) to the power pak.
With a full battery and the panels fully operational, you can pull 500W (300W panels + 200-250W battery) from the inverter for about 2-2.5 hours before the battery is fully discharged.
With a half-discharged battery and the panels fully operational, you can pull ~250W from the inverter while maintaining battery charge. Less power and you can charge the battery at the same time.
With a full battery and clouds or at night, you can pull 500W from the inverter (500-550W battery) for about an hour until the battery is fully discharged.
Supposing 5 hours of daylight averaged over the day, that gives you 2.5 kWh of AC power in total for the day. More in the summer, maybe 3.5-4.0 kWh. Unless the day is cloudy, in which case you might only have 1.0 kWh or less of recoverable energy during the day.
Consider the generator alternative:
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i (http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i)
1600W continuous, 4 hours @ continuous load, 1.1 gal capacity.
Empulse 10 should take around 12 kWh to fully charge in approximately 10 hours (1200W), probably needs around 2.5 gallons of gas (giving you, amusingly, around 40 mpg).
If your riding needs are 20-30 miles per day AND you can current-limit the Empulse charger to not blow the breaker, in the summer you could probably charge the Empulse in about 6-7 hours from the Recon Pak with 5 panels and still have a bit of energy left to run other applications. On a cloudy day or during the winter, you won't be doing much riding if any.
Vs the generator, which can charge 20-30 miles worth of riding in about 3 hours using less than a gallon of gas.
Generators aren't always the best answer, but for charging an electric motorcycle away from the power grid in a temporary location with a reliable supply of fuel they're probably the best choice.
For lower power applications -- such as charging an electric bike or operating a couple laptops, lighting, electric stove, etc -- the recon pak could be a better choice.
I like the recon pak, a rugged transporter inverter / panel hookup package is pretty cool. What would be really cool would be to use the bike's battery as the storage device. Charge during the day, supply power at night. Problem is you take your power supply (to even out fluctuations in solar output) with you if you leave. Imagine holding panels and inverters in saddlebags, ready to respond to emergencies. Pretty cool IMO. Vehicle to grid technology is still being sorted out, but it's got a promising future.