Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Shinysideup on December 28, 2012, 10:46:49 AM
Title: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on December 28, 2012, 10:46:49 AM
Moving some stuff from the mods thread to this new one:
Q: (Shinysideup)
Today I ran the battery down to 15% for the first time, and, when accelerating up a long hill, I noticed some brief, partial cut outs. No cut outs, really, but more like a brief, subtle rapid stutter, with no degree of power loss that was concerning me, just noticeable. Probably some low voltage sensor getting tweaked at the current I was demanding. If this is something that shouldn't have happened, please let me know. Otherwise I can easily live with it.
How can I adjust the suspension so it is the softest possible, reacting as quickly as possible to sharp changes. On the rear shock and the front forks there are screws with + and - signs on them. I turned everything as far as possible toward the negative and the ride was a bit smoother, less harsh. Any suggestions on how to turn this magnificent sporting machine into a water bed? A Gold Wing? OK, something softer than it came to me?
A: (BrammoBrian)
Given that the ambient temperature is still rather low, meaning the batteries will be relatively cold, and you were accelerating up a hill with low SOC, I would guess what you felt was the low voltage protection kicking in. If you are at a low SOC (State of Charge), then the voltage on the battery pack is also low. For the same power, you now require the pack to deliver more current. When you deliver this current, the pack voltage "sags" or drops. If any of the cells reach below about 3.0Vdc for more than a short period of time, then the motor controller will start reducing current to prevent the pack from being damaged. I'm guessing that once you made it to the top of the hill or to a flatter section, the issue went away as the current demand (and thus battery voltage sag) were not as high. Managing the battery at low SOC becomes quite difficult as the capacity remaining depends heavily on how it will be drawn out. We, of course, try to leave a safety margin there so you do not experience the protection scheme above single digit SOC, but it is difficult to account for every situation. When you return to Scuderia for your first service, they can pull the log file and verify this is what was going on. They will be able to see recorded ambient temperature, speed, battery voltage, current, motor controller parameters, throttle position, and any error codes or flags. The diagnostic tool set for the bike is pretty impressive (IMHO).
Point taken on the streets in SF. The Empulse R does have adjustability in the suspension, but it's still on the "sporty" side rather than the "plush" side. Getting the bike to the Goldwing setting may not be possible. Next steps I would recommend would be looking at dropping tire pressures ever so slightly or changing to a less sporty, year-round tire that has a bit more compliant side wall. In the meantime, I'll ask Aaron Bland, suspension guru, if there's more that could be done on the settings from what you've already described.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on December 28, 2012, 03:17:12 PM
Regarding the use of the 12Vdc accessory port...
The DC-DC converter is rated for 276W continuous, and 336W peak (2 minutes).
The bike's normal operation consumes 217W (with a margin). This leaves 59W (about 5A) for Auxiliary devices. The fuse on the line is 10A.
My take is that we could easily run heated gloves/grips and most likely a heated jacket, but not both at the same time. Hope that clears things up. We'll have more detailed info like this in the official release of the manual. Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on December 28, 2012, 04:14:24 PM
Thanks, Brian.
I just got this in my email:
"The accessory port provides approximately 100W @ 12VDC which should be just fine to run your heated jacket. It might be a push to run both your jacket and gloves. Let me know if you have any additional questions.
Happy riding,
Adam Lukoic Service Manager Brammo Inc."
My guess is that I'll probably be finding out where that fuse is!
I'm thinking you might want to increase the capacity of that converter by about 100W, if it fits. :-\
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on December 28, 2012, 04:45:38 PM
[Edited to remove bad math due to misreading...]
My only current plan for the accessory socket is a garage door opener...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on December 29, 2012, 03:52:47 AM
100 Watts would mean a consumption of 100 Watts, maybe you were thinking 100 Amps? If you rode for one hour, it would be 100 Watt-hours (100Wh). Given that the battery pack is 9,300 Wh (nominally), then the use of 100Wh would cost you about 0.8 of a mile (based on 121Wh/mile) in range if you used the full battery capacity on a ride.
This is a good opportunity to show why it's not such a big deal to have an LED headlight (if an affordable one existed)...
Current headlight = 55 Watts Theoretical LED headlight = 20 Watts Savings = 35 Watts
Ride for one hour, you've saved 35 Watt-hours = 1,530 ft (.29 mile) in additional range. Every little bit counts, but it's still a relatively small improvement versus some of the other ways of improving overall system efficiency...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on December 29, 2012, 03:55:31 AM
"The accessory port provides approximately 100W @ 12VDC which should be just fine to run your heated jacket. It might be a push to run both your jacket and gloves. Let me know if you have any additional questions.
My calculation had some margin built into it, so Adam and I are still in agreement. 100W should be just fine.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on December 29, 2012, 05:17:56 AM
maybe you were thinking 100 Amps? If you rode for one hour, it would be 100 Watt-hours (100Wh). Given that the battery pack is 9,300 Wh (nominally), then the use of 100Wh would cost you about 0.8 of a mile (based on 121Wh/mile) in range if you used the full battery capacity on a ride.
Indeed, I'm not sure why I was thinking amps.
And it would only cost about .5 miles at 70.
For me, the city range is uninteresting because I'm not likely to do 120 miles at city speeds. I'm much more likely to be range limited at highway speeds...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 12, 2013, 01:07:05 AM
After riding the Empulse for a couple of weeks now in heavy traffic, I have an idea for an improvement.
The braking that comes from regen, especially the stronger version in "Sport" mode, is very effective in slowing the bike down. It's so effective that, especially on the freeway, I was cautious to back off the throttle without dabbing my brake pedal to flash the brake lights.
It occurred to me that the electronic geniuses at Brammo could monitor the regen current, and when it exceeds a certain threshold, have the circuit turn on the brake lights, preferably with a quick flash or two before a steady on, until either the brake is also used, or until the regen is no longer engaged.
No need to send me royalties for my idea!~ :-\
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: skuzzle on January 12, 2013, 04:24:01 AM
Quote
No need to send me royalties for my idea!~ Undecided
Sorry Tesla does this already. From an autoweek Tesla S review:
Quote
Part of the reason that the brakes feel so natural is the Tesla's approach to regenerative braking. Unlike many manufacturers, regeneration isn't controlled by the brake pedal at all--it's handled solely by the accelerator. Let off the pedal slightly, and the car begins meting juice back into the pack. Remove your right foot entirely and the sedan generates electricity at its maximum rate. A gyro measures the rate of deceleration and flicks on the LED brake lights accordingly.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: implovator on January 12, 2013, 11:33:27 AM
That is a great idea, and it's diminished none by the fact that the Tesla guys beat you too it. I've owned a few big twins and I use my brakes very little around town or on the interstate, so I always get in the habit of tapping the brake lights. It's really tough for cars to judge the distance and speed of motorcycles so I think this idea could be applied to all motorcycles.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 12, 2013, 01:21:42 PM
A gyro measures the rate of deceleration and flicks on the LED brake lights accordingly.
Weird they would use a gyro rather than just monitor the rate of flow back into the battery pack. But then I guess that's why I'm a RN and not an EE.
Oh well, there goes THAT $Million. :(
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: 7racer on January 12, 2013, 03:31:55 PM
I have a Tesla Roadster and it actually makes a lot of sense. The reason is sometimes if you are at speed and you let off the "gas" pedal a bit, you slow but still have forward momentum and speed. This is more like if you let off the gas pedal in a normal ICE car but you are still traveling forward. The problem if it was not using a gyroscope is that the taillights would keep coming on and the people behind you would think you were riding your brakes.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 14, 2013, 01:41:21 AM
The reason is sometimes if you are at speed and you let off the "gas" pedal a bit, you slow but still have forward momentum and speed.
But if you let off "a bit", wouldn't there be very little current flowing back into the pack? That's why I thought the process could be more simply monitored by having a current threshold that would have to be exceeded before the brake lights come on. But Tesla probably knows what they're doing! (Lucky you, owning the Roadster!)
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on January 14, 2013, 02:17:54 AM
Power generated would vary by speed as well as amount of drag (deceleration), so it probably wouldn't directly correlate. Also, a small power output while climbing a hill might not tell the whole story when gravity is responsible for additional deceleration.
If I were going to base the tail lights on something that could already be measured, I'd probably base it on the change in the speedometer, but even that could be fooled by varying traction conditions.
A gyro would give a reliable measure regardless of a lot of conditions that might fool other sensors...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 14, 2013, 10:36:58 AM
Power generated would vary by speed as well as amount of drag (deceleration), so it probably wouldn't directly correlate. Also, a small power output while climbing a hill might not tell the whole story when gravity is responsible for additional deceleration.
If I were going to base the tail lights on something that could already be measured, I'd probably base it on the change in the speedometer, but even that could be fooled by varying traction conditions.
A gyro would give a reliable measure regardless of a lot of conditions that might fool other sensors...
Thanks. That makes perfect sense. And I guess, gyros are not as costly or complex as I first imagined, since there's probably one in my iPhone.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: protomech on January 14, 2013, 03:36:05 PM
Not really a gyro, but an accelerometer. They're pretty inexpensive - probably < $1 component cost in quantity. Sony's PS3 controller has a three-axis accelerometer in it, and the bill of materials on that device is probably < $10 including battery, bluetooth chip, etc.
Woops, got confused here. It wouldn't be a traditional mechanical gyro but a solid state on-board gyro chip. Same principle applies - only think of the Wii Plus controller or the Sony Move controller, which do indeed have solid state gyros.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on January 14, 2013, 06:12:19 PM
Arguing the other side of the coin, though, if you want parity with ICE behaviors then you'd tie the brake lights into anything that caused drag on the wheels (which is all that normal brakes really do). Standard cars/bikes don't put on their brake lights when they encounter other non-brake related forms of drag, they only show lights when there is a local source of drag. I guess the reasoning would be that if you are going up a hill and slowing because of that, then the person behind you is experiencing that same deceleration and you're both in the same frame of reference. But, when your car kicks in its brakes (or regen system), then it is experiencing an additional drag that doesn't naturally extend to the other car.
Depending on how it is implemented, if you try to coast up a very steep hill here in SF, and your brake lights are tied to an absolute measure of deceleration, then your brake lights might come on even if your car is truly coasting. Someone behind you may think "Ah, they've put on their brakes" and apply theirs only to lose more momentum than they really needed to and then they have to reapply power to get to the top of the hill. Would that be considered a value added?
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 16, 2013, 12:20:38 PM
The DC-DC converter is rated for 276W continuous, and 336W peak (2 minutes).
The bike's normal operation consumes 217W (with a margin). This leaves 59W (about 5A) for Auxiliary devices. The fuse on the line is 10A.
My take is that we could easily run heated gloves/grips and most likely a heated jacket, but not both at the same time. Hope that clears things up. We'll have more detailed info like this in the official release of the manual. Thanks for your patience!
Well the proof is in the heating...
I got the 12V up and running and am very happy to report that it has supported a pair of First Gear heated gloves and a Gerbings jacket liner, at the same time, without blowing anything. It's good to be toasty!
I wired in a Centech fuse block and put a 10A fuse in place of the Gerbings 15A one.
I'm also running a pair of 16-LED Hyperlite brake lights. I added a Flash-2-Pass garage door opener, by tapping into the headlight leads.
I plan to add a pair of Hyperlite amber running lights in front, because I've experienced these to allow oncoming drivers to better judge my closing rate. These don't draw much current and my feeling (technical engineering term!) is that I've got the headroom for them.
I should hopefully gain a bit more 12V headroom by replacing the headlight bulb with a 35W HID unit. I'm doing this mainly to gain more light, as my old eyes can easily outrun the OEM bulb on the freeway at night. Not a good feeling. :-\
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: skuzzle on January 16, 2013, 04:02:16 PM
Quote
I should hopefully gain a bit more 12V headroom by replacing the headlight bulb with a 35W HID unit. I'm doing this mainly to gain more light, as my old eyes can easily outrun the OEM bulb on the freeway at night. Not a good feeling.
Please post with a review off your headlight bulb upgrade. I'm interested if the coverage of the single headlight is good enough even with the brighter bulb. I'm not sure if I can go back to a single light after using my twin light Vstrom. At this time of year it's dark coming and going to work.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on January 16, 2013, 04:23:23 PM
I got the 12V up and running and am very happy to report that it has supported a pair of First Gear heated gloves and a Gerbings jacket liner, at the same time, without blowing anything. It's good to be toasty!
I wired in a Centech fuse block and put a 10A fuse in place of the Gerbings 15A one.
I'm also running a pair of 16-LED Hyperlite brake lights. I added a Flash-2-Pass garage door opener, by tapping into the headlight leads.
I plan to add a pair of Hyperlite amber running lights in front, because I've experienced these to allow oncoming drivers to better judge my closing rate. These don't draw much current and my feeling (technical engineering term!) is that I've got the headroom for them.
I should hopefully gain a bit more 12V headroom by replacing the headlight bulb with a 35W HID unit. I'm doing this mainly to gain more light, as my old eyes can easily outrun the OEM bulb on the freeway at night. Not a good feeling. :-\
Glad to hear that you were able to get what you needed from the extra wattage available. Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Brammofan on January 16, 2013, 04:45:21 PM
Hey Shiny - any chance that you photograph (or video) your projects? That would be very valuable to future modders here.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: CAT in HAWAII on January 16, 2013, 05:55:58 PM
Great idea! Would appreciate any help on modding, pics , how-to"s ,,
And reflections on easier or better ways to do what was done,,
I'm personally interested in the head light / tail lights upgrade And also may e putting in a radio/stereo/iPhone music player And also a better horn,,, (need to look up that thread again)
Thanks in advance!! :D Cat in Hawaii
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 17, 2013, 12:58:39 AM
Great idea! Would appreciate any help on modding, pics , how-to"s ,,
And reflections on easier or better ways to do what was done,,
I'm personally interested in the head light / tail lights upgrade And also may e putting in a radio/stereo/iPhone music player And also a better horn,,, (need to look up that thread again)
Thanks in advance!! :D Cat in Hawaii
I promise some pics when I can get to it. Planning on this weekend. I'll put names, websites, prices with each photo. Unless it really warms up, and then I'll go riding more! ;)
I started the HID bulb replacement tonight and it was horrid. I bought the unit from Hollywood Electrics because they said it had worked well in the Zero which uses the same Triom headlight shell.
First, the directions are a total Chinese corruption of Engrish and jibberish. Useless. Second, the "H4" plastic assembly isn't to international specs and I had to modify it with my Dremel tool to get it to even fit into the shell receptacle. Third, the shells locking ring won't work with the thicker plastic "H4" housing and I had to Dremel it down to make it sort of work and now it's possibly ruined for use with regular H4 halogen bulbs.
I would have been much better off, at half the price, buying something off eBay. I'll call Hollywood Electrics tomorrow and advise them of my experience.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 17, 2013, 01:16:59 AM
Anybody knows that happens when you blow by the redline?
The text in the Motorcycle magazine article just posted speaks of a 8000 rpm redline, with the photo showing it extending to 10K. I guess that's because it was a pre-production model and mine has a changed motor: My red zone starts at 6K and goes to 8K.
I have found it's really easy, with a missed shift, to blow past the 6K mark and see a single green shift light flash. Heck, in first gear, when going for a traffic light that's still yellow, I have seen all the green lights scream at me: shift shift shift! It happens much faster and with much less auditory feedback than any gas bike I've owned. I'm working on refining my senses and getting used to all this fast torque.
Meanwhile... what happens if I over rev? I've got a router that is happy running at 20K rpm for hours at a time. Does the Empulse really go into a danger zone at 8K?
Does it electronically protect itself from over-revving? My R1200R would just turn off the ignition at 8K, I'd feel a pause and shift. But if that didn't happen, the trusty boxer engine would likely blow connecting rods through the case, possibly causing hair eyes and teeth to end up all over the highway.
What happens when an electric motor goes faster than specified? Flying apart? Melting down? I'd really rather not find out the hard way. :(
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: ttxgpfan on January 17, 2013, 01:36:43 AM
I feel pretty certain the Empulse has a hard limit programed in. I'd imagine an electric motor's rev limit has more to do with the mass in the motor and field weakening or the controllers ability to keep up, than anything.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on January 17, 2013, 03:21:30 AM
@Shiny - is that HID conversion kit using the stock lens? Performing a conversion without changing the entire assembly, including the lens, is not recommended. I read this article when I was considering lighting options for my R1200RT:
Indeed, the BMW dealers don't carry any HID conversion kits - essentially agreeing with the article that it would be a very expensive upgrade to do it right. Given the already good lighting on the BMW tourer, it isn't generally worth it, but if the single bulb on the Empulse is not producing enough light then I'd be willing to spend money to do a HID conversion right - but only with a properly designed kit targeted for the specific installation with a complete replacement of the assembly and lens.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on January 17, 2013, 09:40:46 AM
I feel pretty certain the Empulse has a hard limit programed in. I'd imagine an electric motor's rev limit has more to do with the mass in the motor and field weakening or the controllers ability to keep up, than anything.
Yes, there is a rpm limit programmed in to the motor controller. It will simply not allow the motor to spin beyond the programmed rpm. You should see the shift lights on the dash progressively light up from left to right after you pass about 6,000 rpm.
The motor's speed limitation is based on a number of factors - 1. the motor controller's ability to keep up with the commutation frequency as the motor spins, which is dependent on pole count of the motor as well. 2. the mechanical limitations of the rotor itself as the forces build as the rotor spins 3. the desire to stay away from very high rpm that introduce some other magnetic effects and losses (i.e heating).
One of our Systems Engineers pointed something out to me recently that I probably have not presented well in the past - 5k is a good target rpm for "Sport" mode, but "Normal" mode moves peak power out closer to 7k rpm, so it is actually beneficial (for performance and range) to ride at higher rpm in normal mode. The slightly reduced torque will also make gear selection more critical.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 17, 2013, 11:27:51 PM
OK, by overwhelming popular demand (2), I've relented (got offa my ass) and posted pics of my Empusle R mods so far, with some comments:
You should see the shift lights on the dash progressively light up from left to right after you pass about 6,000 rpm.
One of our Systems Engineers pointed something out to me recently that I probably have not presented well in the past - 5k is a good target rpm for "Sport" mode, but "Normal" mode moves peak power out closer to 7k rpm, so it is actually beneficial (for performance and range) to ride at higher rpm in normal mode. The slightly reduced torque will also make gear selection more critical.
Thanks for all the great technical information, Brian. I soak it up!
So, to make sure I understand this correctly, to maximize range in "Normal" mode (once I'm through the break-in period), I should strive to keep the tach needle in the red zone at 7K (red starts at 6K) and ride with a shift light (or two) constantly illuminated.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Gavin on January 18, 2013, 12:39:32 AM
@Shiny - is that HID conversion kit using the stock lens? Performing a conversion without changing the entire assembly, including the lens, is not recommended. I read this article when I was considering lighting options for my R1200RT:
Yes, I'm familiar with that article and totally agree with it.
But I have a dilemma and it isn't easily solved. The stock bulb in the TrioOM headlight shell and reflector just doesn't throw enough light for MY eyes at freeway speeds for ME to feel safe. So I have to do something.
If I had the wattage available from a BMW tourer, I'd do exactly what I did on my R1200R with great success: add two Hella FF50 driving lamps, sold with installed HID conversions that were very bright AND very tightly focused.
I loved the triangle of light for oncoming cagers to get a clue. I never got flashed by other drivers, once I got them dialed in for point of focus. And I could see every patch of gravel out really far.
But I don't have all those watts available to me. So I have to do something.
Another choice would be to replace the stock 55/60W H4 bulb with, say, a Narva 55/100W bulb, but, again, would the Empulse's converter be happy with the extra draw? Would the shell melt from the heat?
So I'm trying the low wattage (35W) conversion and hoping for the best as an experiment. I finished the install this morning and set the preliminary height tonight. Already I can say, I'm not thrilled with the light scatter. There's a nice central bright spot (way better than stock), with a left and right lesser concentration which is, alas, higher than the central spot. I've lowered the beam so it's no higher than I feel I need to drive at 65 mph and stop within my beam illumination. BTW, the stock set up had a nice low beam pattern, very close in, but the beam disappeared into the air on high beam... couldn't see squat, except overhead freeway signs.
Then there's also the heat issue with HID, though I've read that halogen throws off more infrared. The plastic base of the the HID conversion H4 has holes drilled in it and I left the rubber seal off the back to bring more air in. I've put some gaffer's tape around the perimeter to shield for water spray in the rain. We'll see if that works!
As it stands right now, I'm going to drive around and see if I get flashed because of any glare I throw out. Then I'll lower until that stops happening. If the result is too close to the bike to be useful at highway speeds, I'll probably be forced to replace the whole headlight assembly. I'm toying with putting some HID driving lights (Hella, PIAA, etc) inside the current beautiful carbon fiber shell, maybe with a custom made surround. Or maybe a classic round headlight would look OK. Or a purpose-built HID large round driving lamp. Or...
Bottom line: I feel I MUST seek out better light and will do what it takes to achieve it. So stay tuned and any input welcome.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Richard230 on January 18, 2013, 10:35:06 AM
I can tell you that my 2012 Zero's headlight isn't any better. I also have a BMW R1200R and I would say that its headlight lights up the road about four times better than the Zero's, especially on high beam. I have been adjusting the angle of my headlight (which is very easy to do on the Zero), but that can only go so far. Do you want a brighter light right in front of your tire, or do you want a dim light further out? ::) Personally, while the headlight assembly on the Zero, which looks very much like the one on the Empulse, looks nice, I think a redesign is in order.
I am not sure that a brighter bulb is going to make all that much difference. You probably need both a brighter bulb and a completely different reflector to bring the headlight up to modern motorcycle standards. Although I will admit that my Zero's headlight works better than the one on my Aprilia RS50, which sort of just glowed at an idle speed, until you moved off and the revs built up enough to power the light so that you could actually see bumps in the road. But it did act like a visible voltmeter, which I guess had some value. :D
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Brammofan on January 18, 2013, 01:01:16 PM
Personally, while the headlight assembly on the Zero, which looks very much like the one on the Empulse, looks nice, I think a redesign is in order.
I am not sure that a brighter bulb is going to make all that much difference. You probably need both a brighter bulb and a completely different reflector to bring the headlight up to modern motorcycle standards.
AFAIK, both the Zero and Empulse use the same TriOM shell, made in Italy where, if my experience in the tunnels of the Italian Alps is representative, lighting is pretty much optional. The reflector assembly sure LOOKS the hi-tech business. It's not. But stylish it is, and the Italians have that niche nailed.
Tonight I did my first full-on run home from work after dark with the HID bulb. I like the lighting reasonably well and didn't get any cars flashing me, though not much of the travel was on two-lane roads: freeway and 4-lane with a grass strip divider, with a some 2-lane at the end with light traffic. Time will tell regarding oncoming responses.
What I thought would be a problem (the two patches fairly wide left and right that are somewhat higher than the main spot) turns out to have some unforeseen advantages: On curves they dip down and light up the shoulders. Sweet. And, MAYBE, during the day, they are high enough to hit the adjacent car mirrors when I'm lane-splitting, though of course, nothing short of a jet fighter jack hammer 30mm minigun laser cannon will attract any attention whatsoever from the sleep-driving cagers.
Richard, since you're an engineer and since we both have the same headlights which don't overly thrill us, maybe we could collaborate on how to come up with something superb. Then we could sell it to Brammo and Zero. We'll split the profits right down the middle -- 60/40. ;)
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: FreepZ on January 19, 2013, 10:14:59 AM
I have a question about the seat.
Here's a picture of Joe Keto getting under the wind on an Empulse.
Scooting back on the seat is very easy on a Ninja. What's it like on the Empulse?
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Richard230 on January 19, 2013, 10:46:02 AM
Shinnysideup, my engineering experience comes from designing residential and commercial subdivisions, utilities, surveying and grading land, along with enforcing development regulations. All I know about headlights is that some work better than others and that H7 headlight bulbs get hot. ;) My solution to having a poor headlight is to not ride at night. ::)
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 19, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
Scooting back on the seat is very easy on a Ninja. What's it like on the Empulse?
A bit weird for the first few days. Now I'm used to it. I generally ride "in the valley" and push back usually when going over 60 on the freeway where I want to lean more into the wind. The wind blast keeps me up on the ramp (which is over the charger). Gripping the " tank" with the knees also helps stabilize that position. Although I'm used to it by now, it wouldn't be my ideal seat, but then I actually like the Russell Day Long Saddle for my assets.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 23, 2013, 03:21:27 PM
One of our Systems Engineers pointed something out to me recently that I probably have not presented well in the past - 5k is a good target rpm for "Sport" mode, but "Normal" mode moves peak power out closer to 7k rpm, so it is actually beneficial (for performance and range) to ride at higher rpm in normal mode. The slightly reduced torque will also make gear selection more critical.
So, to make sure I understand this correctly, to maximize range in "Normal" mode (once I'm through the break-in period), I should strive to keep the tach needle in the red zone at 7K (red starts at 6K) and ride with a shift light (or two) constantly illuminated.
Brian, You may have missed this follow up, for I've not seen an answer and would appreciate knowing that I'm understanding you correctly. THANKS! - Bill
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on January 25, 2013, 12:07:21 AM
Brian, You may have missed this follow up, for I've not seen an answer and would appreciate knowing that I'm understanding you correctly. THANKS! - Bill
Bill - I did miss this first time around. Rather than giving a quick response, I'd like to provide you (and the other customers on the forum) with a more detailed answer. Next week, I'll sit down with the motor designer and get his tips on maximizing performance and efficiency.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on January 27, 2013, 01:24:22 AM
Something that I wished I had known before I bought the bike - I signed up for a Chargepoint account while I was getting ready to take delivery and ordered 2 cards, but the bike comes with a Chargepoint keychain card already in the welcome packet. Actually, I'm not sure that is a problem because the 2 cards I ordered were listed as "free with a new registration" - the only issue is whether I'll be charged for a card if I register all 3 (that's between me and Chargepoint, though). If I'd known, I would have only bothered ordering one extra or just waited to sign up and register the existing card. I hope that helps future owners.
Something that I still want to know after reading the manual. On page 30 there is a big warning that you should disconnect the "BATTERY SAFETY DISCONNECT" (see page 47) before working on any of the electrical systems. The (provisional) manual is only 46 pages long, though - D'oh! ;)
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on January 27, 2013, 01:38:15 AM
Yeah, I noticed that too. I figured p. 47 was vaporized when the author forgot to disconnect the BATTERY SAFETY DIS..... POOF!
And dude, you didn't let us know you got your Empulse and now have that famous permanent Empulse Grin (tm)!
And dude, you didn't let us know you got your Empulse and now have that famous permanent Empulse Grin (tm)!
They haven't posted the indoor shot that Don took yet. If it looks anything like the one he took with my phone, I forgot the "Jim doesn't look like he's smiling in photos unless he shows some teeth" rule and so it would look more like my permanent Empulse Deer Caught in the Headlights face (nobody would bother trademarking that)... ;)
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on January 29, 2013, 02:38:15 PM
Brian, You may have missed this follow up, for I've not seen an answer and would appreciate knowing that I'm understanding you correctly. THANKS! - Bill
Bill - I did miss this first time around. Rather than giving a quick response, I'd like to provide you (and the other customers on the forum) with a more detailed answer. Next week, I'll sit down with the motor designer and get his tips on maximizing performance and efficiency.
Quick update - Lead Powertrain Engineer, Dan Riegels, will be working on a detailed blog post that addresses the development of the Empulse motor (Parker GVM) and cool technical details on the IET system. I tried to hit him up with all the questions I've seen pop up here, but if you've got something very specific, let me know.
To answer Bill's original question - No. You should target about 5,000 rpm in either Normal or Sport modes for peak efficiency. Just know that in Normal mode, you'll need to run to about 7,000 rpm to hit peak power. In Sport mode, the peak power and peak efficiency coincide at that same 5,000 rpm. This is simplifying things a bit as the efficiency is also related to the load on the motor, but I think this is a good "rule of thumb" for riding the Empulse effectively. Hope that helps and I'm looking forward to posting the longer answer from Dan later this week...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: protomech on January 29, 2013, 06:33:27 PM
I'd love to see a motor efficiency map, if one can be made publicly available. Suspect it'd help owners too.
Looking forward to a technical info dump, especially if it causes me to re-evaluate preconceptions : )
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on January 31, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
A question about L1/L2 charging. I didn't see anything in the owner's manual, but if we have the time (as in overnight charging), does L1 charging have less of an impact on longevity than L2? Or are they both below the threshold of having any noticeable effect on battery lifetime?
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on February 01, 2013, 12:04:42 AM
Good question, flar - I've wondered the same thing.
On a related note: I've signed up for my local utility's Time of Use rates. Will it in any way affect the charger (or anything else) to plug the bike in and have a timer supply power to the Clippercreek unit?
BTW, the utilities really have their rates, ah, wired: Sure they give me a great Off Peak rate, but then, on that special, touted, EV plan, they jack up the daytime rates way above what I'm paying now. Oh well.
At least if I'm charging after midnight, the breaker won't trip when SWMBO plugs in her hair dryer.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: 00049 (AKA SopFu) on February 01, 2013, 10:37:24 PM
A question about L1/L2 charging. I didn't see anything in the owner's manual, but if we have the time (as in overnight charging), does L1 charging have less of an impact on longevity than L2? Or are they both below the threshold of having any noticeable effect on battery lifetime?
The answer to both questions is yes. I imagine if one bike was always charged at L1, and one bike was always charged at L2, and all else was equal, you would see a difference probably as soon as 30k miles, and see usefulness change around 100k miles. Also charging in cooler temps is easier on the battery. Most "accelerated aging" battery tests are done by cycling batteries at 120*F+, and that can show bring an 8 year life down to ~1 year in a lab.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: BrammoBrian on February 01, 2013, 11:31:51 PM
A question about L1/L2 charging. I didn't see anything in the owner's manual, but if we have the time (as in overnight charging), does L1 charging have less of an impact on longevity than L2? Or are they both below the threshold of having any noticeable effect on battery lifetime?
While higher charge rates do, in general, reduce the life of the battery, even Level 2 charging is a pretty tame charging rate at around .3C on the cells (20-25Amps on a 90Ah pack). The life cycle testing on the cells was done at a .5C charge rate, so no need to worry about this. This will be a consideration for packs and definitely a good question to ask when DC fast charging becomes more common.
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: flar on May 10, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
On a related note: I've signed up for my local utility's Time of Use rates. Will it in any way affect the charger (or anything else) to plug the bike in and have a timer supply power to the Clippercreek unit?
BTW, the utilities really have their rates, ah, wired: Sure they give me a great Off Peak rate, but then, on that special, touted, EV plan, they jack up the daytime rates way above what I'm paying now. Oh well.
Did you sign up for the E9 rate plan? That is the special EV rate plan and that specifically excludes "electrically powered motorcycles".
They also have a ToU E6 plan that is not EV specific.
Both E6 and E9 have some fairly high peak prices, especially if you go much over baseline, but the off peak rates are always lower: E9 less than E6 less than E1 for every tier of usage. Daytime, though, if you go much above Baseline just kills you on E6 and E9.
I use much more than Baseline so it waters down the savings. They also disallowed me to sign up for E9 because I mentioned I had a motorcycle. They did offer E6 and the web site shows that I'd save about $10 per month (on a bill of about $180), but I'd also be locked in for 12 months. Since my situation may change, and since they may revise the plans soon, I elected to wait for $10/month. I'll continue to track it, though, because continued overnight charging may shift the savings balance. The reason it might not is that I tend to be a night owl so I often run my power hungry PC or A/V system in the wee hours of the morning anyway...
Title: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Shinysideup on May 13, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
I did sign up for E9. I didn't mention "motorcycle". What's up with that kind of discrimination? >:(
I also like the fact that I pay the lowest rate on weekends, as well as after midnight, so I save my laundry chores (electric dryer) for the weekends.
Too early to tell if the higher peak rates (especially over baseline) are going to wipe out any savings. I'll compare monthly bills soon...
Title: Re: Re: Empulse Rider Questions
Post by: Brammofan on May 13, 2013, 02:07:22 PM
Quick update - Lead Powertrain Engineer, Dan Riegels, will be working on a detailed blog post that addresses the development of the Empulse motor (Parker GVM) and cool technical details on the IET system. I tried to hit him up with all the questions I've seen pop up here, but if you've got something very specific, let me know.
Seeing this at the top of the thread reminded me. Did this blog post go out and I missed it, or was it something that got moved to the back burner? I'd love to see when and if it goes out ..