Brammo Owners Forum
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: oml on October 02, 2012, 03:18:38 AM
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A good morning to you all,
a few minutes ago a newsletter from zero motorcycles arrived, here is the online-version:
http://view.s4.exacttarget.com/?j=fec3127076610174&m=fe9c15707365007a75&ls=fe31167874650478721575&l=ff5c1d7877&s=fe51137877600d7b7310&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe9a1370746c047974&r=0 (http://view.s4.exacttarget.com/?j=fec3127076610174&m=fe9c15707365007a75&ls=fe31167874650478721575&l=ff5c1d7877&s=fe51137877600d7b7310&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe9a1370746c047974&r=0)
Too bad its completely german, and i couldnt find an english version of it? o.O
They boast with 220 km range (like the empulse), and, the most promising i think, just 1h charging time!
Here are pictures (they look as boring as the old ones)
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de/2013 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de/2013)
Yes, no english version again. Thats just ridiculous :D
All in all I think of them (at least of the S series) as quite uninspired. Bigger battery (11.4 kwh) - thats all. Booooring :D
And a pricetag of 16k Euros, which is even 1k more than the European Empulse. Zero really hast to stop with pricetags with the same numbers and just another currency - the conversion factor is 1.3 $/Euro! Even included VAT (19% here in .de) cant justify that!
oml
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ha! It actually has an english version:
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/2013/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/2013/)
ive guessed with an /en/ or /us/ in between, so i couldnt find it.
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Humm... they are listing CHAdeMO as a charging option. That is the less widespread fast charging option in the US. These manufacturers need to stop fragmenting charging solutions. Tesla just came out with some type of fast charging solution too. This won't help the electric vehicle industry at all.
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For me, the most important factor is the range.
The ZF11.4 specs say:
City/Highway/Combined range:
137/70/93 miles
Power pack maximum capacity:
11.4 kWh
MSRP
$15,995.00
So it looks like I can get more range with the 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 than I can with the Empulse, and it's $3,000 less.
Good grief. It's becoming more and more difficult to stick with Brammo. I'm going to have to reconsider all the options when the time comes to decide. Of course, this also depends on when the 2013 will actually be available, but Zero have been pretty good at getting product out.
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Humm... they are listing CHAdeMO as a charging option. That is the less widespread fast charging option in the US. These manufacturers need to stop fragmenting charging solutions. Tesla just came out with some type of fast charging solution too. This won't help the electric vehicle industry at all.
Thats the thing im most excited about: 62,5 kW of charging power and look at the grid in japan!
http://goo.gl/maps/tBXai (http://goo.gl/maps/tBXai) - TEPCO built it in less than two years, and here everyone cries: An electric charging is absolutely impossible, it would take decades, etc, blubb.
Well, here in .de the grid isnt that great, 20 stations give or take - still, in most areas less then 100 km away, so a long trip (300 km) would not only be possible, but actually practical.
The problem in the US is that the main charging system, the J1772 brammo uses is currently only specified for lvl 1 and lvl 2, which both are veeeery far away (lvl 2 has 8 kW or in a newer speci 19kW) from the theoretical maximum power the chademo may put through (62.5 kW). If SAE would hurry up a bit and finalize the lvl 3 specification, zero might switch back.
Well, I personally think of the CHAdeMO as the more elegant one, as it (as far as I understand it) offers more freedom to the battery controller and doesnt slow down battery development by defining standards too early.
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By the time the 2013 Zeros are shipping, the non-R Empulse SHOULD be shipping. Zero claims January availability for the 2013 models. Brammo claims "early 2013" for the non-R Empulse. If you compare the top S to the non-R Empulse, price difference is $16k vs $17k.
The 2013 Zeros have a hugely improved highway range. The ZF8.5 (7.5 kWh?) has 22% higher highway range despite having 6% less capacity than the 2012 ZF9 (7.9 kWh), and the 2013 ZF11.4 (9.9 kWh?) has 70 highway miles range. Zero's range specs for the 2012 bikes have been very poorly presented but accurate IME, and they're finally presenting a straight highway range.
So now we have three levels of charging:
Level I, 120V AC 12A
Empulse 8 hours 0-99%, 6.9 miles/hour (combined)
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 7.4 hours 0-95%, 9.0 miles/hour (combined)
Level II, 240V AC 12A (Empulse pulls about 12A, Zero pulls about 6A)
Empulse 3.5 hours 0-99%, 15.8 miles/hour (combined)
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 7.4 hours 0-95%, 9.0 miles/hour (combined)
Level III, 480V AC 100A (Zero pulls probably 37A)
Empulse N/A
2013 Zero S ZF11.4 1.0 hours 0-95%, 66.5 miles/hour (combined)
Zero is slightly more efficient overall, which gives it a noticeable advantage when charging on a standard 120V plug.
Empulse has a more powerful integrated charger, which gives it a noticeable advantage when charging on 240V (europlug or J1772).
With the optional accessory (no word on cost, but figure $500), the Zero has a huge advantage when charging from a CHAdeMO offboard charger. These chargers are somewhat rare in the wild now; the Mitsubishi MiEV and Nissan Leaf are the only other production vehicles that can charge from this plug.
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Here are my impressions for those who care ;)
Revised designs... definitely heading in the right direction, they look good!
The headlight, and now the HP figure (54hp) ::) obviously inspired by Brammo.
68lb/ft of torque... wow. I see they left the 100mph title to Brammo, but 95mph is plenty fast. (sustained?)
CHAdeMO == YUCK
The dirt model should be VERY competitive with those specs! 70lb/ft... wow!
Prices are very good... wondering what that buys component-wise.
I think they will keep Brammo on their toes for sure. Brammo still way ahead in the style department though. Fit and finish yet to be judged, but we all know Brammo currently has em beat soundly in that department as well.
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Here are my impressions for those who care ;)
Revised designs... definitely heading in the right direction, they look good!
The headlight, and now the HP figure (54hp) ::) obviously inspired by Brammo.
68lb/ft of torque... wow. I see they left the 100mph title to Brammo, but 95mph is plenty fast. (sustained?)
CHAdeMO == YUCK
The dirt model should be VERY competitive with those specs! 70lb/ft... wow!
Prices are very good... wondering what that buys component-wise.
I think they will keep Brammo on their toes for sure. Brammo still way ahead in the style department though. Fit and finish yet to be judged, but we all know Brammo currently has em beat soundly in that department as well.
Headlight is the same as the 2012 Zero and the 2010 Empulse concept.
Wonder what motor they're using. I think it's stretching a bit to say a 40 kW power spec is inspired by Brammo.. maybe if they had 470 lb weight too.
Frame looks very similar to 2011/2012 models. Seat looks to be significantly improved, good if you're spending nearly 2 hours in the saddle at 55 mph.
Power is up hugely. 40 kW vs 22 kW for the 2012s. 0-60 should be MUCH faster, figure about 6s 0-60 vs 2012 10s. Empulse is a bit faster if you're in the right gear.
On the track? Zero is significantly lighter, same power, slightly more efficient range claim. Empulse has higher-end components for brakes and suspension, wider rear tire.
If Zero's motor cooling is effective - and the 2012 is already somewhat limited, I wonder how well they'll deal with twice the power - then I think Brammo will have a hard time keeping the TTX ahead in 2013. I don't know whether Zero will race the ZF11.4 or the ZF8.5 - the 2012 ZF9s had significant charge remaining after each race, but the 2013s are much more powerful..
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Edit: nominal capacity figures for the 2013 bikes may be incorrect, Zero is not re-using EIG 20Ah cells from 2012.
One more thing.. slight irony.
2010 Empulse concept, 40 kW, direct-drive, 100 mph sustained
Empulse 6.0 kWh, 360 lbs, ~60 miles, $10k
Empulse 8.0 kWh, 390 lbs, ~80 miles, $12k
Empulse 10.0 kWh, 420 lbs, ~100 miles, $14k
2013 Zero lineup, direct-drive, 95 mph top speed (sustained? unsure)
Zero S 7.4 kWh, 40 kW, 350 lbs, 70 miles combined, $14k
Zero S 9.9 kWh, 40 kW, 382 lbs, 93 miles combined, $16k
2013 Empulse, 40 kW, multi-speed transmission, level 2 charger, 100+ mph sustained
Empulse 9.3 kWh, 470 lbs, 77 miles combined, $17k
Empulse R 9.3 kWh, 470 lbs, 77 miles combined, $19k
The 2010 Empulse concept is closer to the 2013 Zero lineup than the 2013 Empulse, at least just looking at specs. It's a day late (2 years) and a dollar (couple thousand) short, but the 2010 Empulse has a launch date. Just not from Brammo.
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Interesting that Zero has been riding these bikes around town and getting people's impression, so they have already produced some. There is no doubt they will be in the Zero dealers by January. One thing Zero has not done is allow for upgrades as they once planned. At one time they even said you would be able to purchase upgrades at a discount. Problem is, they keep redesigning, so no upgrades are possible...new motor, new batteries, new frame, etc.
We can assume the bike will not go 95 mph (about 89 actual) for very long. Perhaps it will do a sustained indicated 82 mph which should give you an actual 75 mph freeway speed though with a range of 50 miles for the largest battery. If so, and I think it is close, that is a huge advantage over the 2012, and would mean the bike really has become a serious commuter. Hopefully, they have also worked the bugs out. Decisions, decisions. Brammo or Zero? Suddenly, the advantage goes to Zero, IMO.
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My 2012 Zero S is about 4% high on the indicated speed. I've hit 87 mph indicated, which is about 84 mph actual.
The largest 9.9 kWh battery claims 70 miles highway range. Perhaps 65 miles @ 75 mph.
Where did you see that they've been riding the bikes around town? I don't doubt they have built a couple of test bikes, but Brammo had built test Empulses as early as March-April.
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The email Zero sent out mentions they have been riding the new bikes around Santa Cruz and see people with smiles plastered on their faces. I think they probably have more than a couple of bikes. Just a guess though. No way will the bike do 65 miles at 75 mph (actual). It should do 50 miles though. Wind resistence between 70 and 75 is a drag...get it? Drag. LOL
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One last note.
Brammo builds their batteries with modules configured in series. For example, BPM 44/70 for the Enertia Plus is 44V 70Ah, two modules in series gives 88V 70Ah pack. BPM 15/90 for the Empulse is 15V 90Ah, seven modules in series gives 103V 90Ah pack.
Building a battery in series probably has some advantages (easier servicing perhaps?), but it has a significant disadvantage in that it's hard to offer multiple battery sizes with the same voltage. The Empulse concept was developed with two different voltages (88V 3 module 6.0 and 4 module 8.0, 111V 4 module 10.0?) .. when they switched back to a series configuration a la Enertia Classic, they dropped the two lower configurations.
Zero builds their batteries with modules configured in parallel. For example, the ZF3 module for the 2012 bikes is 65V 40Ah. Two modules in parallel gives 66V 80Ah (S ZF6), three modules in parallel gives 66V 120Ah (S ZF9).
I'm assuming they're continuing to build the batteries like this in 2013. They have a ZF2.8, ZF5.7, ZF8.5, ZF11.4. Zero used Molicel cylindrical batteries for several years before switching to EIG in 2012, so probably they're still using 20AH EIG pouch cells. Edit: incorrect, Zero is not using EIG cells (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2560-First-Look-2013-Zeros!&p=32644&viewfull=1#post32644) for the 2013 bikes..
Two possible configurations for the ZF2.8 module: 17s2p = 62V 40Ah, and 34s1p = 124V 20Ah. I suspect they are finally building a higher voltage battery @ 124V. Higher voltage means less current for a given power target (40 kW = 60V 660A OR 120V 330A), which means less heat generated in the motor.. which they will need to continue to air-cool. Incorrect, LFP has posted a technical explanation on elmoto (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2560-First-Look-2013-Zeros!&p=32644&viewfull=1#post32644).
Motor picture courtesy Asphalt & Rubber (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/2013-zero-motorcycles-s-ds-xu-mx-fx/):
(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2013-zero-s/2013-zero-s-04.jpg)
At 70 mph, the 2012 Zero S pulls about 12.9 kW from the battery. Say 64V 200A.
At 70 mph, the 2013 Zero S pulls about 9.8 kW from the battery. Say 120V 82A.
Power loss from resistance is I^2/R, which is also the same (basically) as heat generation. Assuming constant R (bad idea?), the 2013 bikes should generate about 16% the heat (from conductive losses) as the 2012 bikes. incorrect
I bet they can sustain a higher top speed than the 2012 bikes. Like 90 mph, perhaps.
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As always, Protomech is on the mark. The big news here is Zero designed their own motor and significantly upgraded the batteries. No mean feat. The Empulse and S/DS are both about 40kW now, same as the Empulse. The Empulse is more aero, has a gearbox, but weighs about 100lbs more. The S is lighter, has fixed gearing, and is about as aero as a truck. Should make for some VERY interesting TTXGP superstock racing next year.
I think the bike to watch is the FX. Almost as much power as the big bikes but another 100lbs less. Undoubtedly the highest power-weight ratio bike on the market, should do 0-60 in the 4's. What an awesome urban assault vehicle.
In regards to Chademo, you guys should check it out. This means the Zero's will be able to charge in one hour, no matter the pack size, and you don't have to lug a large/heavy charger with you everywhere you go. Empulse will take about 3 hours with it's onboard 3kW charger and there is no way to make it go faster. True that there is no Chademo in the US, but it is HUGE in other countries, look at Europe and Japan, maybe Zero has a more global vision. IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger. Come to think of it, I bet you could use the Nissan home chademo charger for your Leaf AND your Zero. How cool would that be?
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As always, Protomech is on the mark. The big news here is Zero designed their own motor and significantly upgraded the batteries. No mean feat. The Empulse and S/DS are both about 40kW now, same as the Empulse. The Empulse is more aero, has a gearbox, but weighs about 100lbs more. The S is lighter, has fixed gearing, and is about as aero as a truck. Should make for some VERY interesting TTXGP superstock racing next year.
I was wondering who made the motor. If it's Zero's own design - maybe finally seeing results from the motor grant they received a while back? - then I have high expectations.
S may be as aerodynamic as a truck, but Zero claims better pure highway range. 70 mph on the 2013 S is 140 Wh/mile, 70 mph on the 2013 Empulse is 160 Wh/mile.
I think the bike to watch is the FX. Almost as much power as the big bikes but another 100lbs less. Undoubtedly the highest power-weight ratio bike on the market, should do 0-60 in the 4's. What an awesome urban assault vehicle.
Not quite on the market, right? : )
With a .. 180 lb rider (me), we have the following power/weight ratios:
2012 S ZF9 17.9 lbs/hp (geared for 88 mph top speed) .. ~10s 0-60
2013 FX ZF5.7 10.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed) .. ~5.5s 0-60
2013 S ZF8.5 9.8 lbs/hp (geared for 95 mph top speed) .. ~5.9s 0-60
2013 MX ZF5.7 8.2 lbs/hp (geared for 85 mph top speed.. yow!) .. ~4.4s 0-60
Estimated 0-60 times assuming motor has a similar torque curve to the 2012 motor. Probably a bad assumption - but there you go. I would be a little surprised if the FX pulled 4s 0-60 .. MX maybe. Still hugely faster than the 2012 bikes.
In regards to Chademo, you guys should check it out. This means the Zero's will be able to charge in one hour, no matter the pack size, and you don't have to lug a large/heavy charger with you everywhere you go. Empulse will take about 3 hours with it's onboard 3kW charger and there is no way to make it go faster. True that there is no Chademo in the US, but it is HUGE in other countries, look at Europe and Japan, maybe Zero has a more global vision. IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger. Come to think of it, I bet you could use the Nissan home chademo charger for your Leaf AND your Zero. How cool would that be?
The J1772 spec goes up to 70A, I believe (15 kW). Most (all?) existing chargers are either 15A (3kW) or 30A (6kW).
I doubt anyone installs CHAdeMO for home charging. The charging station currently costs about $10k (Nissan) and probably requires higher power distribution than most residences have access to. 1 hour charging is nice, but I've had zero problems with an "8 hour" charge on my Zero .. even with often returning home after midnight, often leaving at 5:30, and 70+ mile days.
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I doubt anyone installs CHAdeMO for home charging. The charging station currently costs about $10k (Nissan) and probably requires higher power distribution than most residences have access to. 1 hour charging is nice, but I've had zero problems with an "8 hour" charge on my Zero .. even with often returning home after midnight, often leaving at 5:30, and 70+ mile days.
I agree. If I charge at home, which i will do most of the time, a lvl 2 j1772 ist more than enough, even lvl 1 would suffice.
But CHAdeMo is worth gold on a longer trip.
Whats the difference between < 1h charging and 3h charging on a roadtrip? Well, in the second case there wont be a roadtrip at all.
IMHO, J1772 is a farce, just a glorified wall plug with a CC billing box attached to it, and it only does 6kW max. Chademo is an actual 60kW off-board direct DC charger.
Yep, I fully agree. SAE J1772 (lvl 2) is shit meant to prevent electric vehicles from overtaking ICE ones. With an CHAdeMO you may invest 10k, but its almost the equivalent of an usual gas station and provides huge flexibility for the vehicle.
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Wikipedia says J1772 is good for up to 80amps, or 19.2kWh. The SAE has rejected the CHAdeMO chargers, so the gamble in the US is up there. The J1772 is the safe bet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772)
Are we certain it is a new motor? Or just an updated one?
While the new Zero S is more powerful, it's still not what I would consider a sport bike. The Empulse has a better chassis for racing, and is geared more towards that that style of riding. However a Zero S 8.5 is over 100lbs lighter! Be darned if I can figure out which one is going to carry more speed through the corner. Oh many I can't wait for next year!
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I'm wondering what that kind of charging rate might do to the longevity of the battery.
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Regarding the Zero chassis. The 2013 model chassis looks a lot like the 2012 chassis. I have a Yamaha FZ1, as well as two BMWs and a Triumph Bonneville and have owned over 40 motorcycles in the past. My 2012 Zero S works really well around town, but to me it feels very nervous when going around high speed corners, especially if they have any bumps in them. The bike is very light (compared with what I am used to) and the steering is very quick, as it has a short wheelbase, a steep fork angle and relatively wide handlebars. I would really like a steering damper to have been installed when I am riding on mountain roads. I have no doubt that the Empulse will be the better handling bike at high speeds on twisty back roads. Although the Zero might be the better bike on a very twisty one-lane road or in urban kill-or-be-killed traffic, like you see in San Francisco. :o
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I'm wondering what that kind of charging rate might do to the longevity of the battery.
Depends greatly on the particular cell chemistry, and Zero has not revealed this yet. Zero is no longer using EIG cells (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2560-First-Look-2013-Zeros!&p=32644&viewfull=1#post32644), proving my earlier speculation incorrect.
As an example, Nissan claimed that the Nissan Leaf would retain 80% of its capacity after 5-7 years. With regular CHAdeMO charging (0-80% SOC in 30 minutes = average 1.6C), Nissan expected the Leaf to retain 70% of its capacity after 5-7 years.
Zero is charging the bikes a bit more slowly (in every case they claim 1 hour for 0-95% SOC, or 0.95C average) .. so probably this is not terribly stressful to the batteries.
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Thank you for that insight Richard! My brain will be chewing on that for a while.
@charging discussion, I would like to point out that a Level 2 charger could supply enough kWh to charge a Zero in the same amount of time (enough volt or current is another subject). But, the brilliance of the CHAdeMO is that with a Level 2 you'd have to have a giant 10kWh charger on board the bike. Not the case with the CHAdeMO. In my interview with him, Brian had said they were looking at things like CHAdeMO. Right now there are a few competing standards. I don't think we will see a new Empulse for at least 2 more years. By then, things may have settled down in that arena and the discussion will have been made for Brammo. But the pack should also be twice as dense. What I want to know is, how much is the CHAdeMO option.
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According to auto blog, the new Zero will connect to your smart phone via Bluetooth, getting information from the bike but also allowing the bike to be configured by the phone. Sounds pretty sweet to me.
Read more here:
http://m.green.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/2013-zero-motorcycles-lineup-faster-farther-chademo/ (http://m.green.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/2013-zero-motorcycles-lineup-faster-farther-chademo/)
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Thought hit me tonight..
47000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System) miles of interstate in the US.
Nissan sells a $10k CHAdeMO station. Figure installation is $10k apiece.
Say servicing is $500/station/year, figure 1 hour usage/station/day = ~50 kWh/station/day = $5/day operational costs = $1500/year.a
Install them every 30 miles on the interstates, and you'd need 1500 stations. $30 million to install. $3 million/year to operate. Say every 20 miles, add 50% to the costs.
Why is this not a thing? If we subsidize 10k/year cars @ $7500 .. figure half of those receive state subsidies averaging $2500 .. that's $87 million dollars. Per year.
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One hour is still a long charging time and there aren't enough electric cars/bikes yet. And what if when you get there, the station is already being used or not operating? It's not like you can ride another 30 miles to the next station. Maybe in another few years if gas prices go much higher and stay there though, and there are advances in battery technology. With gas prices at $4 or even $10 a gallon, gas stations everywhere, fuel-ups taking 5 minutes, and you can buy a Ninja 300 for 1/4 the cost of the Empulse r and the Ninja goes a real 75-80 mph all day, and the service on them is readily available at hundreds of dealers, electric motorcycles cannot compete. High cost, low range, long charging times, questionable dependability of electric motorcycles are valid concerns that aren't going away any time soon with the much cheaper alternatives available.
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Speaking of gas prices, they are predicted (and these press predictions always seem to come true) to reach around $5 a gallon in California this weekend. This is due to a Chevron refinery in No. CA having a fire last month and two refineries in So. CA having a melt-down due to excessive heat. ??? That gives the oil industry an excuse to raise fuel prices and make a lot more profit while the supply "crisis" lasts.
Time for the press to stop complaining about high gas prices and talking about electric vehicles - instead of telling the public how well big SUV's and pick-up trucks are selling and they had better go out and buy one quickly before the supply runs out. ::)
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One hour is still a long charging time and there aren't enough electric cars/bikes yet.
Yes. Zero only charges at 1/4 of the station capacity. (charge 70 miles per hour)
Nissan Leaf charges using 100% of the station capacity, as a result charges faster in terms of miles per hour (approximately 120 miles per hour) .. despite using more energy per mile.
If a national charging grid was available, EVs would be built to support it. You could build a motorcycle pack with slightly lower energy density that would support a 4C charge .. giving you a charge rate of 250-280 miles per hour.
And what if when you get there, the station is already being used or not operating? It's not like you can ride another 30 miles to the next station.
Probably a better idea to install 2-4 chademo charging seats. Connect the networks to the internet, view availability & operational status online.
Maybe in another few years if gas prices go much higher and stay there though, and there are advances in battery technology. With gas prices at $4 or even $10 a gallon, gas stations everywhere, fuel-ups taking 5 minutes, and you can buy a Ninja 300 for 1/4 the cost of the Empulse r and the Ninja goes a real 75-80 mph all day, and the service on them is readily available at hundreds of dealers, electric motorcycles cannot compete. High cost, low range, long charging times, questionable dependability of electric motorcycles are valid concerns that aren't going away any time soon with the much cheaper alternatives available.
Those concerns are legitimate, and the best way to ease them is to show that electric bikes do work. Zero has had some trouble with the 2012 bikes (now fixed), but hopefully the 2013 Zero and Brammo bikes will be more solid.
Why would anyone buy anything other than a Ninja 300 if purchase price, and highway speed were the only things that mattered? I see plenty of $10-15k gas bikes running around in the US, so not sure purchase price is an absolute dealbreaker. A 2013 Zero S ZF8.5 will break even in costs (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=4&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=9&kWhC=0.09&eRng=80&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4.05&mpg=61&oCC=30&oCI=5000&sC=550&sI=15000) with a Ninja 250R by 100k miles.. if the Ninja can make it that far.
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When I owned a 2004 Ninja 250 (which I gave to my daughter and she still is riding, now with about 26K miles on the clock), the Ninja forum that I used to frequent (as Ninjarich) claimed that the motor was good for about 60K miles and then it was time to replace it with a crashed bike's motor, as it cost too much to rebuild. My problem with the 250 was that it was a real hassle to perform maintenance on. A typical 6K service, which included a valve adjustment, would take me all day. Lots of fairing parts to remove, the oil filter was inside the sump, wires and hoses all over the place that needed to be removed to access the valve covers and adjusting the 8 little tiny valves was a real nightmare - especially when a feeler gauge slipped out of my fingers and dropped down the cam chain tunnel into the crankshaft area. Boy, was I lucky with that one as I was able to get the gauge out of the works using a telescoping magnet pickup tool.
Anyway, you really have to figure in the cost for servicing and parts into the Ninja/e-bike running cost equation. If you paid a dealer's mechanic to perform the regular servicing every 6K miles, you would likely be paying around $600 for each service. That really adds up over time. One of the things I really like about my Zero is that I don't have to perform (or pay for) that type of servicing.
Unfortunately (for me), I am still servicing my daughter's bikes as she likes to ride but doesn't like getting her hands dirty. The Ninja is a fun and economical IC motorcycle, but I really don't like to service it. ::)