Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Gavin on April 18, 2012, 07:24:13 AM
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Here is a thread to place specs...
:)
G
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http://m.prnewswire.com/news-releases/brammo-reveals-new-details-for-empulse-and-empulse-r-electric-sport-bikes-147904985.html
ASHLAND, Ore., April 18, 2012 /PRNewswire/ --Brammo, Inc., the designer and manufacturer of world leading electric motorcycles today announced details of its much anticipated Empulse and Empulse R electric sport bikes.
Both models utilize the world's first drivetrain that has been designed and built for a production electric motorcycle. It features a water-cooled permanent magnet AC motor, IET 6 speed gearbox and Brammo's unique BPM 15/90 battery modules. This drivetrain package endows the Empulse and Empulse R with rapid off-the-line acceleration, sustained high speed and industry-leading range.
Unique for a production electric motorcycle, both Empulse models also have J1772 Level II on-board charging system, allowing riders to easily take advantage of the growing number of charging stations being installed in cities around the world. The Empulse and Empulse R can be totally recharged in just 3.5 hours and every 10 minutes of casual charging adds 5 miles of range. With a little planning, a day's journey of 200 miles or more can now be achieved.
Craig Bramscher, Founder and CEO of Brammo, stated, "The Empulse and Empulse R are a milestone for Brammo and the new electric benchmark for the motorcycling industry. I know when I reveal the bikes on May 8th people are going to be blown away by the integrity of the design and the focused presence this motorcycle commands." Bramscher continues, "When we first revealed the Empulse prototype, our customers had some very clear feedback for us and that feedback has inspired much of what you will see in the production version."
Brammo will be revealing the Empulse and Empulse R in Los Angeles on May 8th, 2012. The launch event will be webcast live to all pre-order customers. Those viewers will not only get to see the new bikes, they will get to hear what it's like to ride one, straight from the mouths of Brammo's development riders, two of which happen to be well-known motorcycle racers. Electric motorcycle racing is an integral part of Brammo's mission, and its experience and championship record on the track has played a critical role in the evolution of the Empulse from concept to production. Professional racers have had a hand in the development process and they will be sharing their riding experiences and impressions at the reveal on May 8th.
A video interview with Brammo CEO Craig Bramscher will be released on Thursday, April 19th 2012 – http://www.brammo.com/video-ceo
About Brammo
Brammo, Inc., is a leading electric vehicle technology company headquartered in North America. Brammo designs and develops electric vehicles including the Encite, Enertia, Empulse and Engage motorcycles. Brammo is the current TTXGP eGrandPrix champion of North America. Brammo is an OEM supplier of its innovative Brammo Digital Drivetrain systems including the Brammo Power battery pack and Brammo Power vehicle management system. Brammo has vehicle distribution and marketing operations in North America, Europe and Asia. To learn more, visit www.Brammo.com
The following are trademarks of Brammo, Inc. in the United States or other countries or both; Brammo®, Enertia®, Empulse®, Empulse R®, Engage®, Encite®, Brammo Digital Drivetrain®, Brammo Power®, the Brammo logo and bulls head graphical device.
2012 Brammo Empulse R Specifications
Drivetrain
Motor Type Permanent Magnet AC (PMAC) - Water Cooled Motor Controller Sevcon Gen 4
Peak Motor Power 40kW, @ 8,200 rpm (54 hp)
Peak Torque 63Nm (46.5 foot pounds)
Final Drive Direct Chain Drive (14/48) 520 O-ring chain
Transmission IET 6 speed gearbox with multi-plate, hydraulic activated wet clutch Emissions None Battery
Battery Type Brammo Power™ BPM15/90 Lithium-Ion ( NCM Chemistry)
Battery Pack Capacity 9.31 kWh (nominal), 10.2 kWh (max) Battery Pack Voltage 103.6 V (nominal)
Recharge J1772 Level I maximum charging time: 8 Hours. (0 – 99% SOC, no cell imbalances)
Level I and II Level II maximum charging time: 3.5 Hours. (0 – 99% SOC, no cell imbalances)
110V AC to J1772 Level 1 Adapter included Every 10 minutes of Level II charging adds up to 5 miles of range
Battery Cycle Life 1,500 cycles to 80% capacity (100% DOD) Performance
Max Speed 100 + mph (160 + km/h)
Driving Range City: 121 miles* (195 km) Highway: 56 miles** (90 km) Combined: 77 miles*** (124 km)
*SAE City Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (variable speed, 19 mph / 30km/h average) **SAE Highway /Constant Speed Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (70 mph / 113 km/h sustained) *** SAE Highway Commuting Cycle (.5 City weighting, .5 Highway weighting)
Operating Modes 2 Operating Modes selectable through the handlebar switch: 1. "Normal" - limits acceleration by reducing maximum current delivered to the motor through the motor controller in order to maximize driving range. 2. "Sport" - provides maximum performance in both acceleration and top speed.
Regenerative Braking
Under deceleration, energy is returned to the battery system to both extend driving range and provide familiar rider feedback.
Operating Cost Assuming 13 cents /kWh for electricity:
1 cent per mile around town 2 cents per mile on the highway
Approximately 400 miles for every $4.00 of electricity (city)
Data Collection
Brammo DDC™ (Dynamic Data Collection) records key motorcycle parameters at 1Hz (1 sample/second) for analysis and service support. Chassis
Frame Brammo E-Beam™ Aluminum, Fabricated by Accossato in Italy
Suspension / Front Fully Adjustable 43mm Marzocchi Forks
Suspension / Rear Fully Adjustable Sachs Shock Triple Clamps Forged Aluminum
Swing Arm Tubular Steel, Fabricated by Accossato in Italy
Sub Frame Tubular Steel, Fabricated by Accossato in Italy
Brakes / Front
Dual 310mm Brembo floating disk with twin four piston Hydraulic Brembo Brake Calipers, Radial Mount.
Brakes / Rear Brembo single disk with dual piston Hydraulic Brembo Brake Caliper
Wheels-Front / Rear 17"x 3.5" Marchesini /17" x 5.5" Marchesini
Tires-Front / Rear 120/70-17 AVON AV79 / 180/55-17 AVON AV80
Instrumentation
LCD display; speed, tach, odometer, gear position, energy consumption, battery status, estimated range and system status Dimensions Wheelbase 58.0" 147.32 cm Seat Height 31.5" 80.0 cm
Width 31.8" (bar end-to-bar end) 80.77 cm
Height 42.6" (highest portion of the dash) 108.2 cm Length 81.3" 206.5 cm Ground Clearance 7.3" 18.54 cm Rake / Trail 24 degrees / 3.8"
Storage Capacity Optional Brammo hard saddle bags and top trunk.
Fuel Economy 485 mpg-e 206 km/L-e Vehicle Weight 440lbs. / 200kg
Carrying Capacity Cargo Capacity 365 lbs. / 165.6 kg (805 lbs. / 365.1 kg total combined motorcycle, rider, passenger and cargo) Warranty 2 Years (Limited Factory Warranty) 1 year Fender-to-Fender Limited Warranty, 2 year Limited Powertrain Warranty (Batteries and Motor)
Colors True Blood Red, Eclipsed Black, White Noise All specifications subject to change without notice.
SOURCE Brammo, Inc.
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OMG! Finally! I feel like this is going to be an awesome bike... I also feel like I wont be able to afford the R spec model... waiting on specs for the Empulse minus the R. R means Really expensive, right? ;). Prices? I need Prices! Thanks for posting this Brammofan!
BTW, anyone interested in a 2007 GSXR750... ;D
Probably not the right venue to sell an ICE bike, huh...
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This is the part that I like best:
Performance
Driving Range
City: 121 miles* (195 km)
Highway: 56 miles** (90 km)
Combined: 77 miles*** (124 km)
The thing that I'm trying to do with the Empulse is combined riding for about 77 miles. It's like the bike was built for me!
(http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/png/happy-epic-win.png)
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OMG! Finally! I feel like this is going to be an awesome bike...
+1
Fantastic! These specs answer so many questions I had.
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Notes/Observations:
- The Empulse is Awesome! (Sorry Protomech, Richard230, :P)
- I don't see a price anywhere. Does anybody have an idea of what it is?
- Sport/Eco mode - I guess that made sense for the Zero, and makes sense for the Empulse too.
- Regenerative breaking - Good news. It's not going to have much effect for hard breaking, but it is going to help the hypermilers out there (like me!)
- "110V AC to J1772 Level 1 Adapter included" - I wonder if that will be a NEMA5-20 to J1772 adapter, or simply a NEMA5-20 plug at the end of a cable with the adapter on the bike.
- Looks like only one battery configuration.
- Brammo have not updated their website yet.
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Notes/Observations:
- Looks like only one battery configuration.
Only specs for the R are shown, right? ???
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Looks good.
this is going to be an awesome bike...
+3
'Eclipse'(yuk) Black one please!
Agree that regenerative braking is good news. Also like the mpge km/l figures - gives an easy to understand comparator.
It's all good. Now just need to know how many pennies and when....
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Only specs for the R are shown, right? ???
I was wondering about that.
What naming convention are they going to be using? I know that the Empulse RR is the racing version. What does the single R mean? And if there are other battery configurations, what will they be named? P, Q?
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No prices until May 8, according to a brammole*.
*brammole - noun - small, woodland creature native to southern Oregon.
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The article suggests: "Empulse and Empulse R"
Looks like there will be the Empulse, the Empulse R, and the Empulse RR (Existing Racebike). I would really like to see the specs for the regular Empulse. Sucks about having to wait on pricing :-\
April 18 Specs: OMG I want one!
May 8 Price: Oh wait, I cant afford it... :( or I can :D
Actually affordability is determined almost entirely by my better half.
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Also like the reference to a passenger and luggage!!
;D
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Well guys, I am impressed with the specifications of the Empulse and they are almost exactly as I had expected, based upon Brammo's interest in making a quality electric motorcycle that will be compared with top-notch gas-powered sport bikes. However, those quality chassis components, many of which are imported from Italy, are quite a bit more expensive than the somewhat basic chassis parts used on the Zero. If the Brammo and Zero MSRPs will have about the same markup, I still say that the Empulse will need to be around $18,000 USD, to account for the more expensive suspension, frame, gearbox, larger motor, more powerful charger, cooling system, etc. You know what they say. You get what you pay for. :)
I also note that, while the Empulse will have better performance than the Zero ZF9, it does not appear to have any significant increase in range. As an engineer, I really like the design of the Empulse, but for my general transportation purposes to get from here to there, the Zero is satisfactory and while I will have some buyer's remorse, I am not going to bang my head against a wall for buying the Zero. I have taken my bike up to 85 mph once, but the rest of the time I keep it at the speed limit, I don't carry a passenger and I just need enough acceleration to stay ahead of a Prius thing. ;)
However, as they say, your needs and desires may be different. In any case, I am looking forward to seeing the Empulse on the road, hearing owner's reports on the bike and seeing motorcycle publications compare the two vehicles. It is going to be an interesting and fun year! ;D
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So that's it?!..... No power increase? So will the regular Empulse have less horsepower?
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I bet the difference between the Empulse and the Empulse R are going to be the battery capacity. I'm curious about the charging stuff, do we need to carry the adapter in a backpack or something or is it incorpated on the bike somewhere?...
120 mile range with an average speed of 19mph is perfect for me since according to my Lexus, after 12 hrs of drive time I average 29.5 mph. With gas at $3.999 per gallon and 16.8 mpg I'll have a significant savings for a daily commute.
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Has anyone gotten an email? I've been getting pre-order emails but not today.
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Has anyone gotten an email? I've been getting pre-order emails but not today.
I have not gotten an email yet either.
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No email for me, juts the link to the press release that 'fan put up
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I don't see why they would use another motor. It's possible they may detune the motor or decontent the "standard" Empulse slightly.
* 7 modules would give 104 V 90 Ah, 9.3 kWh. Exactly 50% more capacity than Enertia Plus, and 3/4 capacity of Empulse RR. Same capacity as an earlier guess, but I was wrong about the common cell capacity (10 Ah instead of 35 Ah).
BTW I think they went to the offset battery module format because of the odd number of modules - the original Empulse concept would have looked incomplete with an odd number of modules.
I suspect this means the "standard" Empulse will be available with 5 modules, for 74 V 90 Ah, 6.7 kWh. 6 modules would disrupt the Empulse aesthetic (n+1 modules up top, n modules on the bottom) and wouldn't really represent a large enough cost spread to justify the lower model.
The charger should be onboard and completely integrated into the bike. For the J1772 inlet you will use a charging cable attached to the standalone charger, whether a public-accessible freestanding charger or a wall-mounted charger you install in your house. To plug into a standard 110v or 220v socket you will need an additional cable (Brammo will certainly include a cable for your country's mains voltage, 110v in the US).
Regen braking is neat. As much as they pooh-poohed that idea, and as little benefit as it seems to provide in the real world (TBD) .. it's a neat feature to play with while you ride, and it gives a small boost to the headline city range specification.
Speaking of range:
Zero S ZF9 7.9 kWh
114 miles, 69 Wh/mile EPA UDDS // city riding, 20-30 mph typically
63 miles, 125 Wh/mile EPA combined // 50% city miles, 50% highway miles
43 miles, 184 Wh/mile EPA highway // steady 70 mph riding
Empulse R 9.3 kWh
121 miles, 77 Wh/mile EPA UDDS // worse than Zero, Empulse weighs 100 lbs more and probably has sticky tires
77 miles, 121 Wh/mile EPA combined
56 miles, 166 Wh/mile EPA highway // better than Zero by about 10%
Maybe the transmission does help highway range .. the Zero's motor may be operating in a pretty inefficient RPM at highway speeds.
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Also like the reference to a passenger and luggage!!
;D
I agree! This is going to be great for the small commutes me and my SO will take down to her parents!
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Whoa! Can't wait to see them in LA next month!!!
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At outreach clinic...anything going on ?
:)
G
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Two things that piss me off about how Zero lists their specifications.
1. Maximum vs nominal capacity. Maximum capacity is determined by the cell's maximum voltage when pulled hot off the charger multiplied by battery capacity. As the cell discharges, it quickly falls from maximum voltage to somewhere near nominal, and continues to fall from there .. so the maximum capacity statistic is like measuring the long dimension of a fuel tank and calculating a "maximum volume" as a cube with edge length equal to the fuel tank long dimension.
Maximum capacity is a completely useless specification and it confuses consumers who might compare (for example) Zero's 7.9 kWh ZF9 (9.0 kWh maximum) against Brammo's 9.3 kWh Empulse R. I think Zero billing its bikes based on the maximum capacity specification is the reason Brammo now lists the Empulse with a maximum capacity .. and I really wish both companies would list only the nominal capacity.
2. Range. Zero lists only the EPA city range and the combined city / highway range as "highway commuting". Even though the 50% highway miles / 50% city miles is not an unrealistic scenario, a LOT of people mistake this as highway range when strictly riding on the highway. I would really like to see Zero explicitly list a pure highway specification, as Brammo has with the Empulse.
I would wager that we will see people improperly comparing Zero's 63 mile "combined" range against Brammo's 56 mile "pure highway" range.
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The Oregon-based company will produce two versions, the Brammo Empulse and the Brammo Empulse R. Brammo has released new specifications for the R version though it’s not clear what differentiates the two models. The Empulse R will likely be a faired version similar to the Empulse RR TTXGP racebike. More specific differences will come when both versions of the Brammo Empulse are revealed May 8.
RR--race bike
R--pseudo race bike--Empulse with fairing
Empulse-naked bike
As for battery??
G
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R=street legal race bike, like all the japanese R's
The Oregon-based company will produce two versions, the Brammo Empulse and the Brammo Empulse R. Brammo has released new specifications for the R version though it’s not clear what differentiates the two models. The Empulse R will likely be a faired version similar to the Empulse RR TTXGP racebike. More specific differences will come when both versions of the Brammo Empulse are revealed May 8.
RR--race bike
R--pseudo race bike--Empulse with fairing
Empulse-naked bike
As for battery??
G
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I'm delighted by the mention of both hard side cases and a top box, as they suit my needs, along with 2-up seating.
I agree with the general lack of utility of regen, though "familiar feel" of engine braking may be a good thing. But, as with electric bicycles, where regen is even less effective (less weight), consumers seem to be in awe of getting something for nothing. So it's probably a good marketing move.
I must say, waiting seems to have been worthwhile...
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"Brammo, Inc., the designer and manufacturer of world leading electric motorcycles today announced details of its much anticipated Empulse and Empulse R electric sport bikes."
I only see Empulse R details (specs)... ???
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$18,000 USD, to account for the more expensive suspension, frame, gearbox, larger motor, more powerful charger, cooling system, etc. You know what they say. You get what you pay for. :)
you better be wrong because many people will just buy a car and use a ice moto.
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Marchesini, Marzocchi & Brembo will give the Empulse R tremendous street cred (and wheels help efficiency), but none of those components belong on a commuter bike, which many on the forums seem to want to use an Empulse for (sorry, from Delaware originally, where we end our sentences with prepositions...often). So my guess is that the base Empulse is equipped with equal sized components (ie same size tires, brake rotors, and triples) but using more pedestrian grade stuff (Showa forks, Nissin calipers, lower priced cast wheels). If that's the case, they'll deliver identical performance unless you're on a track, but folks who want to buy the best, can spread out more dough for top notch components that make extreme riding better. And you can get good press with your halo spec'd bike in the comparos, while still being able to sell lots of units for the cheaper price.
That's an industry trick to maximize your profit with ranges of target buyer, maintain halo status, but not outprice your lower budgeted buyers, but it requires no retooling or altering your assembly process at all.
Witness
Ducati 1198 vs 1198 SP
Aprilia RSV4 vs RSV4 Factory
Triumph 675 vs 675R
MV Agusta F4 R vs F4 RR
Some of those give a mild boost to the motor too, but mostly, their component swaps of very interchangable parts.
I would be happy if photos of the Empulse R do include a fairing, and it could make the bike more palatable to some.
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Just noticed that the email sent out today mentions a video interview with Craig, and that out will be released tomorrow.
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The Oregon-based company will produce two versions, the Brammo Empulse and the Brammo Empulse R. Brammo has released new specifications for the R version though it’s not clear what differentiates the two models. The Empulse R will likely be a faired version similar to the Empulse RR TTXGP racebike. More specific differences will come when both versions of the Brammo Empulse are revealed May 8.
That's from motorcycle.com right? They use the 10.2 kWh maximum capacity talking point too : (
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/04/18/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/2012-brammo-empulse-specs-released/ (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2012/04/18/motorcycle-category/sportbikes/2012-brammo-empulse-specs-released/)
1lesscar should be happy, they switched the Nissin brakes for Brembos ;D
you better be wrong because many people will just buy a car and use a ice moto.
Or maybe not.. I fully expect the R to come in at 18k+, especially if it has a fairing. The fairing might explain the lower highway energy consumption, btw.. instead of a transmission putting the motor in a more efficient operating mode.
Having the Empulse R be the faired option makes a lot of sense now. That may mean that the Empulse is only offered in one 9.3 kWh battery configuration.
The Empulse is a much more capable bike in a lot of ways than the Zero .. but oh man it's going to be expensive.
People that I talk to when riding the Zero want to know three things:
1. How fast does it go? 80-85 mph, but range suffers if you ride it that fast. It's not a bike I use primarily on the highway.
2. What's the range? 55-70 miles in my riding, which is 45-55 mph typically
3. How much does it cost? $14k, which is the bulk of the 10 year ownership costs
The third point is the sticking point for many, many people. We're accustomed to paying a (relatively) small figure up front for our vehicles and then continuing to pay, and pay, and pay to operate them.
I broke out the ownership costs for the vehicles I've owned here (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/04/how-much-did-you-spend-on-your-car/#comment-1870795). The car I've driven the longest is a mustang, I put 65k miles on it over 4.5 years. Paid $11k for the vehicle, total costs were about $22k ($0.33/mile) .. and I consider it to have been reasonably inexpensive to operate.
I plan to do 100k miles over 10 years on the Zero if the battery holds up .. battery aging will be the primary driver in ownership costs. Paid $14k up front, total costs will be in the $18-20k range. ($0.18-20/mile)
Compared to a used gas bike? 50 mpg @ $4/gal gas is $0.08/mile, tires @ $200/10k miles is $0.02/mile, 10k miles/year and insurance around $300/year is $0.03/mile. Not even counting depreciation (assuming you buy a bike that has aged out most of its depreciation schedule already), that leaves you $0.05-$0.07/mile for wear and tear and parts.
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I would wager that we will see people improperly comparing Zero's 63 mile "combined" range against Brammo's 56 mile "pure highway" range.
I guess we should watch for this and do our best to clarify/correct when it happens. :)
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Marchesini, Marzocchi & Brembo will give the Empulse R tremendous street cred (and wheels help efficiency), but none of those components belong on a commuter bike....
The Enertia Classic has those parts....
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I like the thought of regenerative braking even though I have no technical knowledge to back it up. It just seems to me that if you're riding a bike with limited range and a slow method of recharge you want to get back everything you can but enlighten me if I'm missing something, like increased weight or something?....protomech?
I think fancy forks and brakes are something everybody wants, even if it makes little difference from a riding point of view, ESPECIALLY when commuting and the admiring colleagues are having a look. How much extra they are worth is something different. We probably wont know until after May 8th.
I must be missing something, but this bike will be great for commuting and lone rides or electric ride outs but it really is not an IC sports bike equivalent, or am I way off the mark? The ride outs I'm used to are hundreds of miles in a few hours at speed limits or (ahem) a little bit over, maximum acceleration out of the turns on the most twisty and cambered roads you can find. This bike won't do that and keep up, except for a very short while.
However, it will commute, sit nicely outside a city cafe on a sunny day and by the sounds of it, take two people a reasonable radius at a reasonable pace. What is amazing about it is that it is electric and can do that. It isn't a IC superbike, nowhere near, and if it is always compared with IC superbikes, except in looks, it will always fail. But IMHO it will be the best electric bike out there, by about 20 miles!
The popular press are bound to make comparisons and I'd love it if somebody could argue an Empulse over a BMW 1000RR on a performance basis but it really won't happen. I won't be trying. It's enough for me that Brammo has, for the first time, created a great looking bike with really useable and fun performance(no offence Enertia users).
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Ok, so we dont know what it looks like yet - it could be ugly, but I doubt that! :)
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"Really usable and fun performance" is pretty subjective. Enertia doesn't have enough range for me, incl Plus. It may be perfect for someone else, though.
Same thing for performance. The Zero is not fast off the line, but from 30-70 mph it's as fast or faster than a 250cc gas bike (ninja 250) .. I have a good time riding it.
Downsides to regen braking are extra heat generated in the motor and battery pack, limited regen available from the rear wheel and increased risk of locking up the rear tire, and small increase in control complexity. Strong regen for racing requires a front-mounted motor or some way to transfer power from the front wheel to the rear motor. Chip Yates' race bike had a mechanical link between the front wheel and the motor. Extra complexity and extra weight.
For a commuter bike and a small amount of regen, those are entirely acceptable compromises. In a racing vehicle they become substantially more complex / difficult issues.
If you're interested in that sort of thing, take a look at the well-documented race history of the ProEV Electric Imp (http://proev.com/), an electric-converted Subaru Impreza racecar. First electric car to win in a road race (2007) against its gas counterparts in.. 100+ years.
http://proev.com/RRptPgs/R070004h.htm (http://proev.com/RRptPgs/R070004h.htm)
They had big problems with motor heat and battery capacity. Regen was a major compromise, extra range vs extra motor heat.
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It will be interesting to see how quickly Brammo can manufacture the Empulse and the Empulse R and get them out to their customers. I hope it is not going to take all summer.
That is one thing that surprised me about Zero (considering their previous track record). They got their bikes out to their dealers much more rapidly than I had expected. The production bikes started showing up a couple of months before the original estimated date of delivery mentioned in their 2012 model announcement. Frankly, I didn't expect that.
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Just gotta say wow. It's been a long, patient wait for the Empulse. I've been riding my ICE for longer commutes a few days a week and it definitely leaves me wanting when I hop back on the Enertia for the short commutes. Enertia definitely rails though. So fun. ;D
I'm really interested to see how the transmission feels. I've been thinking about it a lot. The Enertia coasts incredibly well, and I was afraid that downshifting the Empulse would feel really awkward...sort of like having the loosest slipper clutch ever. I'm glad they included the regen braking, which I'm equating to simple engine braking based on motor rpms, current gear, and wheel speed. Pure speculation, but I can't imagine that they'd also work rear master cylinder pressure into that control system. Hopefully the (regen) engine braking will feel right. It would be awesome if you can tune it. I'd love to own an electric that feels like a ICE twin.
The R spec's are looking pretty heavy. $18k+ is probably right on. Ouch. :( Picking the R or non-R is gonna be a tough call for me. I'm guessing if the R has fairings, then it will have clip-ons. I'm more interested in something naked with a standard bar...but if the non-R doesn't have the same suspension parts then I'll have to go with the R. Furthermore if the headtube is as high as the Enertia, then I'll have to go with clip-ons. Is it me, or does the Enertia's bars feel like a pair of ape hangers. :) Alright, that was bit of an exaggeration, but it does feel awfully high for a standard bar.
I wonder if they'll hook me up with something a little more custom. A naked R with a standard bar. We'll call it the Empulse r.
Oh, and kudos for the Level II charging. I'm gonna have to get into work early to beat those Leafs to the Level II stations. That'll get their goat...charging on 120V is liable to give them a little range anxiety for their drive home. :'(
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I hope the $18k figure that's been kicked around hear so often, won't be taken seriously by Brammo. This would kill the Empulse in the crib. I think only those unfamiliar with ICE motorcycle pricing could utter $18k without laughing or getting sick. I cannot rationalize paying that for a bike with tight range. If it had the range of a Tesla, then we could talk. Why have folks on here bumped it by $4k when Brammo was clear about the price back when you signed up to buy?
Sorry but to me it's like talking about a $20 cover and a two drink minimum while standing in front of the bouncer at the door, when you know the club's cover is $10. Bouncered be stupid not to ask for $20.
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http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/ (http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/)
Brammo updated Epulse page now.
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Brammo was clear about the Enertia Plus price at $9k. $2k bump with little material change in the bike save for the batteries.
The Empulse has evolved in more significant ways since. The battery capacity is a bit lower (9.3 kWh down from 10), but the Empulse now has regen braking, an onboard 3kw charger and J1772 inlet, integrated electric transmission. I seem to recall the batteries on the Empulse concept were not liquid cooled.
I think even at $18k the Empulse is competitive with the Zero S. Granted, they're different types of bikes.. but the Empulse is significantly faster and has significantly more highway range. The onboard J1772 charger is awesome, full stop.
I'd love to see the Empulse at $14k with the shipping specifications. I think we will see the Empulse or a very similar bike in that pricerange within a year or two. But I don't think it will happen.. the simplest reason being that Brammo would never sell a single Enertia Plus if they released the Empulse at $14k : p
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implovator, some of us are less patient than others : )
Since they're doing assembly work in Oregon, they may well accommodate special requests. You may pay more for the custom work, of course..
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$18k sounds a bit steep to me as well... I truly hope Brammo isnt entertaining such high figures. The regular Empulse should be priced to compete with upper mid range conventional bikes.
Remember this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/09/business/la-fi-brammo-empulse-ims-20111207 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/09/business/la-fi-brammo-empulse-ims-20111207)
"We're getting to an electric motorcycle without excuses,"
Sky high price would be a pretty big excuse...
I cant imagine they would tell their Empulse 6.0 pre-order customers, who planed on paying $9995, that they would have to pony up an extra 8 grand to buy in... Brammo would really disappoint a lot of people that way. 16k sounds like a reasonable price for the R. The regular Empulse should be in Ducati Monster price range like Craig Bramscher had mentioned in another interview.
Bottom line, the Empulse will need to be affordable to be successful. If they can hit the 14k price target with the regular Empulse, I think most people will be satisfied.
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This is the rabbit hole I went down when thinking about the new specs.
"Ok, so 54 hp with 46ft-lb of torque is none too shabby. That’s a bit more claimed hp than my ’86 VF500F Interceptor had, splits the torque curve I had in my ’91 VFR750F down the middle (after being tuned it started with 42ft-lb at 3k rpm, and peaked at 50ft-lb). So basically the hp of my antique 500cc V4, with the torque of my soon to be antique 750cc V4. Weight is at 440lbs claimed, which is 15 more claimed lbs than my 500, but 60lbs less than what I measured my VFR at after I tried to lighten it a bit.
So, that helps me get an idea of what it will feel like (basically my VFR capped to 8200 rpm, or much like the Buell XB-9R I test rode once). Lets compare it to a 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 650R (what happened to Suzuki’s SV650?) and 2011 CBR600RR on paper (please allow me some creative license here).
Kawasaki Ninja 650R (there’s a new one for 2012, but Motorcycle USA only have a first ride with no dyno numbers):
61.7hp and 41.4 ft-lb of torque measured on a dyno. The dyno chart shows a torque curve that (trying to read the chart) looks like at about 24ft-lbs and just passes 41ft-lb, and then settles back down to about the 24 mark. Frankly, both my old V4s had a flatter torque curves. Must be a V thing. HP peaks out at 8,800 rpm on the way to the almost 11,000 rpm redline. The Empluse is said to peak out at 8200, so things are very similar, accept the whole flat electric torque curve thing. The Empulse is going to launch hard compared to the Ninja, and just straight pull harder everywhere, with out needing to be rev’d. But other wise the numbers are pretty even. Even the curb weight is similar with the article listing 447lbs for the Ninja. Of course, you can coax 200 miles out of the Ninja for 40 mpg, versus 121 miles and over 400mpg for the Empulse. The price of the Ninja 650 in 2009 was $6799. But a 2012 version will cost you $7400. The suspension and overall build of the Brammo should be much nicer, helping to justify the price tag (which has yet to be announced).
Honda CBR600RR
100hp and 44ft-lb of torque measured on the MotorcycleUSA dyno. But, as with the Ninja, torque starts at an apparent 24 ft-lb at just over 2000 rpm. But you don’t get the full 44 until 11,300 rpm! And peak hp comes in at 12,700 rpm on the way to the redline that is somewhere past 15,000. With a curb weight of 411lbs the CBR is significantly lighter, but I still don’t see it being able to pass an Empulse until it simply out revs it. And even then, with a constant 46ft-lb coming from the steam room it’s gonna be a handful to get around. Especially if the suspension components turn out to be superior to the CBR’s. Make no mistake, if the CBR gets out in the open, it’ll probably be gone. And, in a magazine comparison an older CBR made short work of a Buell XB-9R in a tight course that should have been the Buell’s territory. A 2012 CBR600RR start at $11, 540. The Empulse 10.0 prototype was supposed to cost $14,000. That would make it the same price as a basic Ducati 848 EVO (140hp, 72ft-lb).
Basically the gas bikes have more hp, but both really only do it by out reving the Brammo (by the looks of the chart 8200rpm will get you at or just under 60hp out of the CBR). However, the Brammo has just a bit more torque than the two gas bikes, but has it all the time where it’s just a peak number for the dino burners. Fortunately the comparison is a bit more reasonable to make because of the fact the Empulse comes with a 6 speed transmission. Gear ratios will come into play, and I think you can be quite certain Brammo has done their home work in that department, and you will have the right gears to get the job done.
Just by looking at the numbers, graphs, and claimed say-so, it looks like the Empulse could be an ICE slayer in the hands of the right squid in the canyons of California. But, on all but the tightest tracks it still needs twice the hp to keep up with the CBR. I suspect bet the Ninja will not be so lucky."
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Thanks for the link protomech, very interesting! So switch off the braking on snow and ice, then!
I have been looking for technical specs for comparisons and performance estimation. What I have learned, from protomech and ted dillard and others is that comparison on specification and not performance doesn't make much sense. I have yet to find a site that does real world 0-60 or 1/4mile comparisons of EV and IC bikes currently available. Performance/dyno figures do not seem to be widely available as yet.
On paper, the Empulse, with its possible 3-4 sec 0-60 time and 100mph+ figures would be comparable with mid range sports bikes like the Honda CB600F or Yamaha XJ6 diversion. It has similar kerb weights and on the face of it, similar power and torque. I chose these bikes because they are also similar in looks and price range, although the Empulse, at 14000, is a few thousand more expensive.
However, the Zero S could also be compared on these figures alone and it too, on the face of it, would stand the comparison. As I'm sure Zero S owners will tell you though, in the real world it is not at all like a CB600 or diversion, not at all. The 'instantaneous torque' is not as billed either but maybe the transmission will sort that. Don't even look at pricing and battery life/depreciation.
As I said before, I am worried that if these comparisons are made, the Empulse can only fail. I don't think it stacks up against the mid range IC bikes. Not on price or performance. I suppose it is inevitable that comparisons will be made though. I really hope I am wrong and I will be keeping up with my mid range IC sports bike friends, even if I am the wrong hands!
BUT, it will be a great bike. I wish they had mentioned a replaceable battery because I like more than 1500 'goes' from my very expensive toys before they start getting knackered. Totally agree with the pricing, 14k is where it should be, not 18!
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http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/ (http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/)
Brammo updated Epulse page now.
They've also replaced their purchase page that used to have the three Empulse models and associated prices with a single picture of the bike (one that appeared in the video). When you press the "Pre-Order" button, you get:
Price: TBA.
http://www.brammo.com/store/brammo-empulse/ (http://www.brammo.com/store/brammo-empulse/)
I'm hoping that the price will be much less than $18k, but expect it to be more than $14k. Throwing the $18k number around may be a way of making the bike seem cheaper when the actual price is announced. "$17k? Heck, that's cheaper than I thought!"
Some good news: Craig Bramscher should be posting his video interview today (4/19/2012).
http://www.brammo.com/video-ceo/ (http://www.brammo.com/video-ceo/)
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Just to comment about IC/Empulse R performance comparisons, I agree that comparing specifications is not too much help at this time. This is because no one has any experience with a gearbox assisted EV, not even the major automobile manufacturers. However, I believe that once the Empulse R is out and in the hands of motorcycle magazine testers, a direct comparison will be made and the gearbox will allow that to happen.
I have ridden and owned quite a few motorcycles and scooters and I am really having trouble comparing them with my Zero's performance using only seat-of-the-pants feel. Obviously, you can compare top speeds, but its single-speed acceleration is really hard to compare with a geared IC motorcycle. It just feels a lot different because its acceleration is kind of slow off the line and speed increases so smoothly that it just doesn't feel that fast. The closest comparison that I can come up with is that it feels and performs very much like the new Vespa 300i scooter that I tested for fun last year. Since it has an automatic transmission that does not shift like a manual box, it feels very similar and I got it up to a top speed of 82 mph - but due to its small wheels I sure didn't want to stay at that speed very long. ;)
I will say this though, my Zero will pull ahead of most other vehicles when leaving a stop light and no doubt the Empulse will do much better. :)
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My Enertia acceleration could be faster, but is still faster than your average car. I have a few places on my commute where I go from a dead stop to roads with cars going roughly 50mph. A quicker acceleration would help in those cases. Now, I end up waiting a long time for plenty of room to blend into traffic at 50 mph.
Throwing the $18k number around may be a way of making the bike seem cheaper when the actual price is announced. "$17k? Heck, that's cheaper than I thought!"
Just to be clear, the $18K price is only speculation on our forum and is not at all from Brammo. My budget director (a.k.a wife), will not approve my purchase at that price.
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@griping over $18k price tag:
That's just a number some of us are pulling out of our collective butts based upon the Enertia Plus price bump and the added equipment for the Empulse since the concept introduction. I'm sure Brammo knows they will lose most of the 6.0 and 8.0 preorders if they increase the cost of entry from $10-12k to $18k.
I hope they have one model at $13-14k with a smaller pack. This could be the non-R Empulse, or the non-R Empulse could be offered in two different configurations.
I bought the Zero @ $14k and that was more than I had my heart set on. I preordered the Empulse 6.0 @ $10k, and it was a bitter pill walking away from that. But the $10k Empulse existed only in Brammo's projections and my heart .. if Brammo and Zero are around in two years, expect to see a $10k Empulse-class bike at that time.
@machone:
I believe the Zero's torque curve is blunted for two reasons:
1. Electric motors are inefficient at high torque / low RPM. Fine for Eco mode, turn it off for Sport mode.
2. Without a clutch, having the full range of torque available with a twist of the wrist might make parking lot navigation .. interesting. The Zero is really easy to ride at slow speeds because of this.
I've done some seat-of-pants measurements for the Zero that put it at 10s 0-60. A bit slower than a 250, which typically test in the 7-8s 0-60 range. As soon as the 250 hits 2nd gear (~30 mph) and the Zero's throttle response picks up, the Zero is just as fast or faster.. so all the difference is in 1st gear.
The Zero would probably 9s 0-60 with full throttle at 0 rpm.
Neither of the above two reasons should apply to the Empulse, especially as it will have a dual-mode switch as well. I think 3-4s 0-60 is probably a bit optimistic .. but I'd LOVE to be proven wrong. 650cc gas bikes are typically 3-4s 0-60, weigh a bit less and have a bit more peak power. But the Empulse may have a bit more useable power.. we'll see once an instrumented test is performed.
1500 "goes" on the Empulse is 1500 full charges. If you charge twice from 50% to 100% it counts as one full charge. If you only ever ride the bike on the highway, you should hit 80% capacity at around 76k miles (56 miles/charge * average 90% capacity * 1500 cycles). In my riding (45-55 mph typically), I see about 110 Wh/mile energy usage.. so I would expect to get about 80-85 miles per charge from the Empulse. That's 110-115k miles ..
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When heading down the rabbit hole of bench-racing different bikes, you always have to calculate in gearing. Motor horsepower and torque is only half the story. Final drive ratios and transmission ratios make a huge difference.
We've got the official final drive info now (Direct Chain Drive (14/48) 520 O-ring chain). Has there been an official announcement of the transmission ratios yet?
I'm hoping for a real world 0-60 that is somewhere around what I currently have with my old SV650 (Suzuki quit making them a few years ago). Since I'm at 5,280 altitude, and the Empluse won't lose a single bit of power from altitude, I'm pretty optimistic. If there is any raw power or gearing gap between my old SV650 and the Empluse, I'm hoping that altitude losses in my SV650 will cover that gap. Stuff like altitude can also have a major impact on bench racing different vehicles.
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Since I'm at 5,280 altitude
5230 for me...
So you are either in Albuquerque or the Denver area...
Gavin
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5280, thats Denver, also my stomping ground. That is a good point about the altitude hit ICE vehicles take. One more advantage to going electric here... not to mention the healthy tax break. BTW, has anyone heard anything new about the federal tax break making a comeback for 2 wheeled EVs? Brammo said they were working on this too.
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When heading down the rabbit hole of bench-racing different bikes, you always have to calculate in gearing. Motor horsepower and torque is only half the story. Final drive ratios and transmission ratios make a huge difference.
We've got the official final drive info now (Direct Chain Drive (14/48) 520 O-ring chain). Has there been an official announcement of the transmission ratios yet?
I'm hoping for a real world 0-60 that is somewhere around what I currently have with my old SV650 (Suzuki quit making them a few years ago). Since I'm at 5,280 altitude, and the Empluse won't lose a single bit of power from altitude, I'm pretty optimistic. If there is any raw power or gearing gap between my old SV650 and the Empluse, I'm hoping that altitude losses in my SV650 will cover that gap. Stuff like altitude can also have a major impact on bench racing different vehicles.
Agree with the gearing statement. Also the real power and efficiency of our ICE bikes has dropped because of E10 and the upcoming E15. Hypermiling my Daytona 675 the other day I'm down from 52mpg avg mixed hwy-city on my morning commute to 46mpg. California's "winter blend" is no doubt not helping either. That or my 30k mile supersport needs a rebuild.
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Preview for the interview video is up.
Preview Clip - Interview With Brammo CEO Craig Bramscher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE_pflwbrj8#ws)
Wonder if that means we'll see the actual video today.. this is a bit ridiculous : P
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Perhaps editing is taking longer than expected, and since they promised something today, and it takes significantly less time to edit a 1 minute promo than the whole interview, they threw that out to keep the mob happy.
Of course, I'm speculating here, and this could just be part of their grand strategy.
I do find it strange that the promo video is still not up on their website. (It's still showing "This video will be available soon.")
Oh well. We get to see more footage of electric motorcycles, which is always nice. :)
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Ultimate Motorcycling just picked up the 2012 Empulse R specifications story. Nothing new, although it is a little easier to read than the press release:
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/brammo-reveals-details-of-2012-empulse (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012/brammo-reveals-details-of-2012-empulse)
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@Promech, The curb weight for the Ninja 650R, as I said in my blog post, is 447lbs. Claimed Empulse weight is 440lbs. I think the Empulse will weigh as much, if not less, than the 650 twin. Also, it seams Suzuki is no longer making the SV650, so the Ninja is the only one to compare it to.
As far as gearing, It was late, and I tried to elude to the fact that we don't have gearing specs yet. But as spot on as Brammo was all year on the gearing of their race bike, and as together as those Italians seem to be with their IET, I have no doubt the gearing will be spot on. If there were any problem Steve and Shelina would have caught it.
I truly believe that the Empulse will easily put in a sub 4 second 0-60 time. With over 40 ft-lb of torque constantly available, and a six speed gear box to work with, I don't see how it wouldn't be possible. My old 500 Interceptor had a few less ponies and almost half the torque and was good for a 3.9 second 0-60 and 125 mph top end. Comparing engine specs from a single speed to a 6-speed is a hard, if not impossible comparison because how that power is delivered is so different. But I believe comparing the motor output of the Empulse to ICE bikes is quite relevant because the power delivery is so similar. But as was mentioned, it is going to be all down to the gearing. However, all every company does is gear the bikes for the best use of the power and power characteristics their motor produces. Considering the bike seems to be gear for just a tick over 100mph, I can't imagine that 1st gear would be very tall. I suspect it'll be a beast off the line. But that's me, and I'm, ummmm . . . enthusiastic. :D
We won't know until the professionals get them into their hands. Or, as soon as I decide to bug Shelina until she coughs up what she can, after May 8th.
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I feel like I could scrounge up enough data between sevcons website and a 6-speed motorcycle gear ratio/tire size that would end a little bit over 100mph for those specs, then take that and do some acceleration calculations to get a SWAG of where the 0-60 time would be. However, I don't really have the energy for that right now.
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Before you predict 120+MPH top speeds, listen to the interview. Craig's comments do not indicate any desire to have a really impressive top end. He keeps saying things like "we wanted to be able to hit the magic 100MPH number and to do that with a variety of people and we are glad to say that we got there". That doesn't sound to me like "we wanted to see how fast we could make a street EV go", more like "do all of these things well and make sure one constraint is that the final top number has to have 3 digits and then we go home". It sounds to me like they were aiming more for 0-60 grunt, and sport bike "feel" than "really amazing top speed numbers"...
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Its not just three digits guys, Its "the ton". A benchmark of great import in the 40's and 50's. Few production bikes could achieve it. One of the first was the Vincent Rapide and Black shadow. This is where Brammo means to take the electric motorcycle.
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The term "ton up" itself got popular with the cafe racers in the 60's in Britain.
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Now they just call it 3rd gear. :D
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Interesting stuff with respect to your Zero experiences. If I'd be forced to guess after my test ride I would have said 0-60 in around 8 secs which sounds like a good guess now.
The video gave me hope for a really good 0-60 time. I'm going to guess at around 4secs, say 4.3 for ordinary people and 3.9 for an expert.
More worried about the price but more excited about the bike!
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Its not just three digits guys, Its "the ton".
Sorry for the O/T: Up here in Ontario it's called automatic roadside vehicle impoundment for 7 days, minimum $2,000 fine, and automatic driver's license suspension for 7 days, with no right of appeal on the license suspension or vehicle impoundment. These are the results of getting tagged at 50 km/h over the posted speed limit (or "doing the ton"). :o
EDIT: Of course it goes without saying that all of this is moot for a race environment...
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Here's a parameterized model (http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php?Weight=620&WeightUnits=lbs&CRR=.03&Cd=.68&FrontalArea=0.70&FrontalAreaUnits=m^2&FuelWh=33557&IceEfficiency=0.92&DrivetrainEfficiency=0.85&ParasiticOverhead=100&rho=1.22&FromToStep=5-200-5) for Empulse R power requirements based on a bunch of assumptions.
In this model, 110 mph takes about 38 kW to overcome drag. So you could probably kiss that for a bit with the right gears .. maybe a bit more with a full tuck. Constant power is limited, if not by the motor, then by the motorcontroller (sevcon gen 4 limited to 270 A after 2 minutes, which should put motor output around 27 kW and top sustained speed around 95-100 mph).
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Its not just three digits guys, Its "the ton".
Sorry for the O/T: Up here in Ontario it's called automatic roadside vehicle impoundment for 7 days,...
Buzzkill :P
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5280, thats Denver, also my stomping ground. That is a good point about the altitude hit ICE vehicles take. One more advantage to going electric here... not to mention the healthy tax break. BTW, has anyone heard anything new about the federal tax break making a comeback for 2 wheeled EVs? Brammo said they were working on this too.
Has anyone got an answer to the tax break question? I'm also curious about that. Any buck I can get to help me get this bike will help.
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As far as I know, the Federal tax rebate for motorcycles is dead. I don't see the cost-cutting House approving any incentives for buying an electric motorcycle. Nor do I think that Brammo and Zero could possibly come up with enough cash to buy a Congressman to push the idea to reinstate the rebate. Now if H-D was making electric motorcycles, things might be different. ::)