Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: Gavin on March 06, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
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Actually kinda cute....Never a fan of people calling competitors Vaporware, especially when they know the product is being made...but it is what it is...could be a good deal...
http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Still-waiting-for-vaporware--We-ll-give-you--1000-cash-back-on-your-Zero-Motorcycle-.html?soid=1105133109120&aid=FW0DOlNk9x8 (http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Still-waiting-for-vaporware--We-ll-give-you--1000-cash-back-on-your-Zero-Motorcycle-.html?soid=1105133109120&aid=FW0DOlNk9x8)
Since Brammo will have the Empulse out they could end up paying some money...but not likely much...most of the early deposit people who would get their bikes early probably won't bail...and the later deposit people wouldn't have had their bikes...
I wonder if Richard can get his 1000 bucks?
Gavin
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I wonder what they mean by:
"*Some restrictions apply"
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Re-reading it...it looks like if Brammo delivers even 1 bike by Oct 2012 that Hollywood will pay...Ouch...that could sting.
On a related note...those are some pretty good offers....0 down, 0% financing.
Somebody is willing to lose some money on each bike OR Zero has a very large mark up on their prices....
Of course I wouldn't mind a bit of a price war :)
Gavin
Richard...I would run over to Hollywood Electrics and make sure you are included in this offer.
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I wonder what they mean by:
"*Some restrictions apply"
You could ask Harlan...he hangs here from time to time...like now :)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/6813706358_94e1b03f80_z.jpg)
screen capture for the people who dont or cant click through...and to help Richard get his 1000 bucks back later this year... :)
Gavin
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They're pretty vague with the wording -- I think it's pretty obvious they're talking about Brammo, but it's not clear whether they're talking about the Enertia Plus or the Empulse.
Either way I think they're going to lose the bet - which probably means the dealer markup for the bikes is at least $1000.
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It could be read as two ways: (and I like Harlan...I really hope he does well...seems like a nice guy and cares quite a bit about pushing electric vehicles.)
1) Hollywood Electrics knows something we don't and has info that Brammo will not have their bikes out before the end of Oct.
or
2) The Zeros are not selling too well and they are trying to get some business (nobody offers discounts and great financing on items that are hard to keep in stock...the old supply and demand.)
a possible third option
3) They believe there are only a small amount of people out there who want electric motorcycles and if they can quickly sell them Zeros that Brammo will not have customers and will go out of business...but that is a double edged sword...if the market is really that small and limited, well Zero will go down too....
What both Zero and Brammo is hoping for is a growth market vs a small, stagnant market.
Gavin
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Harlan is a salesman. His goal is to sell motorcycles. I believe he's sold Brammo bikes in the past, and I don't doubt (this offer non-withstanding) that he would sell them again if he could. Right now he has no Brammo bikes to sell, and tbh I don't think many Enertias have been sold at all since Brammo announced the Enertia Plus.
1) Or some restrictions apply. I doubt this applies to the Enertia Plus, since Brammo has announced a E+ delivery date and I believe they will make it.
2) The financing is pretty good for motorcycles, but I doubt it's that much of a financial boon. Primarily it's just to get customers on bikes that don't have $14k to drop up front. I believe their interest rates are 0% for 12 months or 5% for a longer period. 0% financing on a $14k purchase probably costs around $200-300.
3) I believe recent census statistics were around 2% of the US population commutes primarily via motorcycle.
Our work campus is a couple thousand people, on a nice sunny day I see typically 10 or fewer motorcycles parked outside.
Nissan sold about 10k leafs in its first year. While on the one hand that's good for new technology, it's still very small in the grand scheme of things. There's a lot of interest in EVs, but not many are willing to take the plunge yet. I suspect Brammo and Zero combined sales to date have numbered in the low hundreds.
As range increases and gas rises, interest will grow. As prices drop, buyers will appear. As sales increase, they'll start to be able to take advantage of economies of scale.
But first they have to have bikes to sell.
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I bought my bike from Mission Motorcycles in Daly City, CA. I doubt very much that they will make an offer like that. From what they tell me, they are selling all of the Zero models that they can get. Even the left-over 2011 bikes on their showroom floor are selling well (I was told that they sold 5 in one week) and they only had a couple left the last time I was up there. I think they also only had 2 of the 2012 models. But that is the San Francisco/San Mateo County/Marin County market. Lots of money, very green, not afraid to be an early-adopter and gas prices here are going up daily. My guess is the EV sales are better in the Bay Area than just about anywhere in the U.S. - including much of the L.A. area, where Harlan hangs out.
The other comment I will make is that I doubt that any retailer knows the electric motorcycle market better than Harlan.
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Perhaps "waiting for a Brammo" was a common reason people gave for not buying a Zero, and instead of having people wait around for a few more months for a Brammo to show up, Hollywood Electrics would rather be selling bikes right now.
Still, that seems a bit risky to me, since if I want to buy a Zero for $1k less, it would appear that I just need to say that I'm waiting to buy an Enertia Plus. I would be pretty surprised Brammo failed to deliver one by October 31, so that would be a pretty safe bet. And if Brammo doesn't deliver, then heck, I was going to buy a Zero anyway.
Of course there could be some fine print that says that the bike has to be available by October 31 to the customer who bought the Zero, rather than available to any customer. If that were the case, then I would not be surprised if they didn't have to pay much at all. If Brammo is going to deliver the pre-orders before delivering to dealerships, then who knows when the first bikes will be available to the dealerships? Then only the folks who already have a pre-order (with a low number), might end up getting the $1k.
Finally, this looks like a little bit of prodding at Brammo. Get those bikes out before everybody who wants an electric bike ends up buying a Zero first.
One (very optimistic) outcome of the HE offer is that someone buys a Zero, gets the $1k, but turns around and sells it second hand (for $1k cheaper) when the Brammo becomes available. More e-bikes on the road! w00t!
In any case, I wish Harlan and his crew all the best. Sell electric motorcycles guys! Sell many, many of them!
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Just read a post from Harlan of Hollywood electrics over at elmoto.net. Apparently Hollywood Electrics is offering $1k cash back on a Zero purchased now if the ebike you are waiting for is delivered before the END of October. To me this is a wager that we wont see Brammo Enertia+ or Empulse deliveries before November... Harlan seems to be a guy in the know, which genuinely has me very concerned:
http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule-..../page5 (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule-..../page5)
With riding season just around the corner... I want a better idea of what is going on. I have a bike to sell (GSXR750) before I can buy my Empulse, but I also want to ride this season. No Brammo by November means no riding season on an electric bike for me, again. :-[
Brammo says things are on schedule, but what does that mean exactly if we have no idea what the schedule entails?
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or
2) The Zeros are not selling too well and they are trying to get some business (nobody offers discounts and great financing on items that are hard to keep in stock...the old supply and demand.)
From what I have been told by Harlan, January was their biggest month and they have actually had trouble keeping them is stock so I don't think number 2 is the reason. I do admit it is some bold marketing and has gotten then some attention. Whether it is intended to be aggressive towards Brammo is only known to those at Hollywood Electrics.
It would be great if Hollywood Electrics sold Brammo as they did have an Enertia in the store a while back. Harlan even took them to the Bob's Big Boy Friday Night Classic Car Shows in Burbank. See my video of such a night with Harlan there on the Enertia.
Brammo Enertias At Bob's Big Boy Classic Car Night (http://vimeo.com/15732301)
I think it would be great if Harlan sold Brammos as well because they do know their stuff and are dedicated to electric transportation. But in reality, the more electric motorcycles that are sold regardless of the maker, the better off we all are.
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Thread talking about this here:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1103.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1103.0)
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Yes, I'll probably combiner these thread into one.
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Thread talking about this here:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1103.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1103.0)
Yeah, Thanks...
Im a bone head and forgot about that thread...
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From what I have been told by Harlan, January was their biggest month and they have actually had trouble keeping them is stock so I don't think number 2 is the reason. I do admit it is some bold marketing and has gotten then some attention. Whether it is intended to be aggressive towards Brammo is only known to those at Hollywood Electrics.
Harlan at elmoto.net (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?2020-2012-Brammo-(Enertia-Plus-amp-Empulse)-Delivery-schedule-....&p=27013&viewfull=1#post27013):
Hollywood Electrics was the Number One Zero Dealer in 2011 and we have already sold more Zeros in 2012 than we did in all of 2011.
In absolute terms, that's not a lot of bikes. But the 2012 Zeros are selling quite well.
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Looks like things are boiling over at elmoto.net... this "mechanic" guy sounds like a true asshole... Almost like he has an axe to grind with Craig Bramscher himself... not sure whats up with that.
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Yes, I've been watching that. It's because of guys like him and a very few others, that I hardly post over there any more. It's sad, really, because it was a great forum at one time. I think skadamo's forum, electricmotorcycleforum.com is the "go to" forum now.
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I'm been reading that elmoto.net thread too. There's a lot of rage going on over there for some reason. My guess is that people have been waiting for so long for Brammo products to show up that they are getting bitter and impatient.
One comment on that thread made me somewhat uncomfortable:
"I'm not believing the "insiders" or "experts" on the forums because they're not offering anything based on fact or that can be documented."
As much as I appreciate this forum, I shouldn't fool myself into thinking that we're going to get any privileged information. I don't think that anyone here has any real facts that have not already been publicized (not counting the folks who actually work at Brammo, because they're not saying anything). We're all just guessing, based on the tiny bits of information that are gleaned off other websites.
Perhaps in the past, some members on this forum had a bit more insight that most other people through the Brammo newsletter, but there hasn't been one of those for a long time.
Happily, when new facts do come to light (like when the Enertia Plus specs finally turned up), this is a great place to read about it.
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I would like to add that I met a Zero factory employee riding a 2012 "S" test bike at Alice's Restaurant today. I spoke with him for about 30 minutes and we talked about his company and the future of electric motorcycles. He seemed very positive about future of the industry and said that he had a lot of respect for Brammo and what they were trying to do with their new models. He didn't see the two brands as being in an adversary competition and felt that the market was big enough for both companies. He said that he wished the best for Brammo. :)
I think that type of view is the most productive one for this very small and growing industry.
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That is good to hear. I have been very put off by Zero as a company based on what I have read online by certain Zero employees. Not just this forum, but many online articles that mention Brammo.
I share the view that consumers for electric motorcycles are better off with options from both Brammo and Zero.
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That would be great...of course between here and elmoto it seems that they (Zero employees) do like to say nasty things and pretend to be "regular" people and not Zero staff members
But hopefully that is over?
Not to judge too hard, but Brammo has yet to attack Zero...yet Zero has had an opposite history...I will be happy if that changes...
Gavin
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between here and elmoto it seems that they (Zero employees) do like to say nasty things and pretend to be "regular" people and not Zero staff members
That's a really broad brush to paint them with. There definitely have been a couple incidents of Zero employees being.. less than forthright with their employment.
Not to judge too hard, but Brammo has yet to attack Zero...yet Zero has had an opposite history...I will be happy if that changes...
I agree, I'd like to see a little less vitriol in general .. and perhaps learn when to shut up myself : P
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Agreed on both points :)
Yes I shouldn't paint Zero with such a broad brush (though I would love for them to let it be known they don't approve of the actions we have seen by some employees)
And yes I need to be a bit more Ghandi-like....
I wish Zero success...I wish Brammo success... I wish Harlan success. The EV world can benefit from them all.
Gavin
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Mechanic also talks about Azhar Hussain like he is the personification of evil. That's just how he talks. It's vulgar, and I haven't been on the forum for a while. I've better things to do.
I really get the feeling that Harlan feels a little burned by Brammo's lack of product. I know he very much feels Brammo's bike(s) are vaporware, and is now putting his money where his mouth is.
Simply put Zero has given him product to sell, and he's doing quite well with it. Brammo hasn't. Clearly his relationship with Zero has grown, and the relationship with Brammo . . . well. It looks like Harlan just lit the bridge on fire. It'll be interested if Brammo bothers to notice, when it comes time to send bikes to dealers. From the little I have chatted with Pinkyracer Harlan knows what the Zero is, a commuter bike, vs what the Empulse is, an early electric sport bike. I would think, all things being equal, he would be all for being patient for the Empulse if he was selling Zeros like mad, like he is, as they are different bikes.
What does all this mean? Don't know, and don't care. Race season starts soon, so all the production dust will settle while I am distracted with that. I'm just going to wait and see what actually happens.
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I think Brammo will look at this from the business perspective. Who is going to sell the most bikes? I would be surprised if they hold a grudge when it comes to the supply chain.
And I think the spectacle is entertaining.
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It will be interesting to see....a big unknown is Brammo's connection with Polaris...
Is Brammo going to mostly use Polaris dealerships?
And holding a grudge doesn't make sense for business...but....if Brammo has other options in the same area, well shouting out Vaporware in multiple locations is not going to scores lot of points :)
Gavin
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Is Brammo going to mostly use Polaris dealerships?
I hope not. While polaris knows how to market snowmobiles and ATVs to their customers, those customers are not the ones that will be buying EVs. Give me Harley instead, please!
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I am not sure Hayley knows how to market EVs either....
:)
Gavin
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Polaris already sells an electric 4 wheeler, and Harley is working on an elmoto.
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Is Brammo going to mostly use Polaris dealerships?
I hope not. While polaris knows how to market snowmobiles and ATVs to their customers, those customers are not the ones that will be buying EVs. Give me Harley instead, please!
There are a lot of Polaris dealerships that also have other brands, like Yamaha and Suzuki. I know the only Polaris dealership here in Knoxville Tennessee has a few other brands (http://www.ultimatetoyz.com/ (http://www.ultimatetoyz.com/)). I don't know if they are going to have any Brammo products when they are released.
As a side note the best thing Brammo can do about Zero bad mouthing them is to finally release their motorcycles.
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There are a lot of Polaris dealerships that also have other brands, like Yamaha and Suzuki. I know the only Polaris dealership here in Knoxville Tennessee has a few other brands (http://www.ultimatetoyz.com/ (http://www.ultimatetoyz.com/)). I don't know if they are going to have any Brammo products when they are released.
Go Vols! And here is the same thing. We have 3 dealerships that sell Kawasaki, Yamaha, Polaris, and some other stuff. Only Honda and Harley have their own around here.
As a side note the best thing Brammo can do about Zero bad mouthing them is to finally release their motorcycles.
As frustrating it is for us not to get any news and no real reaction to Zero's badmouthing, I think that's Brammo's strategy. They will take it until they have the bikes. If the bikes are either as good or better than they are announcing, that will shut up any naysayers. Of course, if they aren't...