Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: Brammofan on December 07, 2012, 10:13:06 AM
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Brammo posted this on their (*gack) Instagram page with the caption, "Coming to an Empulse near you."
(http://distilleryimage2.instagram.com/b5bdac323fd011e29a8f22000a9f195b_7.jpg)
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MMMmmmmMMmmmm Hmmmm Ph.
:)
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MMMmmmmMMmmmm Hmmmm Ph.
:)
LOL. I almost titled the post, Parker Motor Porn.
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The closest the Empulse RR has come to me is Daytona International Speedway.
Definitely seems like a single speed bike, with the big reduction gearing going to the output shaft.
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(http://livethrottle.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/557ad_b5bdac323fd011e29a8f22000a9f195b_7.jpg)
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This was an improperly labeled photo on instagram. That's the early 2012 Parker race motor for the Empulse RR. This motor raced (ok... fine... crashed) at Infineon and then won in Portland. We moved to the next generation motor by the Laguna round.
The Empulse R uses a "mini" version of the Parker GVM race motor. The complete design was done specifically for the Empulse with the goal of moving our racing technology (excellent continuous and specific power) to the production bike.
The current performance of the Empulse R production Parker motor is 40kW / 82Nm (60.5 ft-lbs). Please keep in mind that motor output shaft torque means very little and rear wheel torque means everything...
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Sounds like max motor RPM is lower? That SMRE motor must have been a screamer, if this motor maxes at 8000 RPM ..
Thanks for the update. Now we can put the SMRE / Parker discussions to bed : )
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Sounds like max motor RPM is lower? That SMRE motor must have been a screamer, if this motor maxes at 8000 RPM ..
Thanks for the update. Now we can put the SMRE / Parker discussions to bed : )
Not quite yet... I know how you like to dig and calculate, so let me provide the real "back story" so as to prevent any future misinformation (albeit well-intentioned).
The Empulse R (Brammo designed, Parker manufactured in New Ulm, MN) motor is an internal permanent magnet motor (IPM) and part of the "GVM" family of magnetics design for traction/vehicle applications (like the race bike motor). It makes peak power around 4500 rpm, but has good "continuous power" out to 8000 rpm. This gives it a very broad and useable power band for use on the road - leading to comments about being able to use the bike at a wide range of speeds in a single gear without shifting. ::) However, just because you CAN run it to 8k rpm, doesn't mean you should if you want to maximize efficiency and power. 5-6k rpm on this motor is a pretty good range to operate at to maximize efficiency.
SMRE does not manufacture electric motors, so there is no such thing as an SMRE motor. There have always been motor partners involved in the development of the IET. The "other" motor we use has the same peak power, just at a different rpm and with different power curve past peak power. I wouldn't call it a "screamer" - just a motor with slightly different operating characteristics. Both solutions are great motors and a great fit for the Empulse. The Parker has the edge in peak torque and continuous power rating owing to a very good cooling design. This has made it the motor of choice for the higher priced, higher spec Empulse R.
Regarding the question about sprockets, we now run a 38T on the rear of the Empulse R. All of the bikes used by the press for their review and tested at dealers were built with an earlier revision of the motor, and slightly different rear gearing. The customer bikes have the benefit of about +4hp on the top end, and taller rear gearing for substantially better off-the-line performance. Just another example of Brammo overdelivering (better late than never)... ;)
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So we can assume (you know that's what we do here) that there will indeed be a different motor for the Empulse R and the regular Empulse model. 4 more hp, or ~8% increase in power, not to mention even faster performance off the line, very nice!
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Lesson learned: if you baselessly speculate for long enough, BrammoBrian will step in and give you all the really juicy information : P
EmpulseBuyer, the power increase on the top end may be well below peak power for both bikes.. so it could be something like 36 hp vs 40 hp, or a 10+% bump.
I'd say the Empulse R bikes just got a bit more attractive vs a base Empulse ..
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EmpulseBuyer, the power increase on the top end may be well below peak power for both bikes.. so it could be something like 36 hp vs 40 hp, or a 10+% bump.
I'd say the Empulse R bikes just got a bit more attractive vs a base Empulse ..
And it might be good marketing to let the public in on these stats: press release to magazines, FB page announcement, memo to dealers, separate spec sheets on the Brammo Empulse page, or... we could keep it under wraps and hope viral forum gossip does the job!
Hey, all I'm sayin; is: If you got it, flaunt it!
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So we can assume (you know that's what we do here) that there will indeed be a different motor for the Empulse R and the regular Empulse model. 4 more hp, or ~8% increase in power, not to mention even faster performance off the line, very nice!
I don't think that the Empulse R will have a different motor (and thus different power) than the Empulse. When Brian said "This has made it the motor of choice for the higher priced, higher spec Empulse R." I think that he means compared to other electric bikes, rather than compared to the Empulse.
The motor casing for the two versions (Parker vs the stock SMRE) are different, and it would be a lot simpler (and cheaper) to have a single design rather than to have two.
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Lesson learned: if you baselessly speculate for long enough, BrammoBrian will step in and give you all the really juicy information : P
EmpulseBuyer, the power increase on the top end may be well below peak power for both bikes.. so it could be something like 36 hp vs 40 hp, or a 10+% bump.
I'd say the Empulse R bikes just got a bit more attractive vs a base Empulse ..
Ha! I usually resist the temptation to do this as I often get myself into trouble with releasing information before our sales/marketing group is ready. This is the challenge... Marketing needs to deliver clear, definitive information to dealers and customers that has a very small window of change. I live in a world where things change on a daily, if not hourly, basis as we develop and improve products and address challenges. For example, it is far easier for Marketing to choose not to state the very detailed information on our motor than keep up with all the "noise" in development as long as they know that the performance of the bike is equal to or better than what we promised our customer. I don't make this easy on them as I run our engineering group under the principles of Flexible Product Development, which allows for concurrent, parallel development projects and VERY late decisions compared to traditional product development processes. IMHO... this is how we get the best products to market, albeit a little late from time to time.
Getting back to the motor... The top end power increase is truly top end power, which is what allows us to run gearing more advantageous to rear wheel torque and off-the-line acceleration.
It's a 40 kW motor, not 40 hp. 40kW = 54hp.
The Empulse TTX that wheelies in the video is a standard Empulse R configuration with lighter racing wheels and a relatively small bump on peak current from the motor controller. Eric Bostrom's wheelie in the photo, however, was acheived on a bone stock Empulse base model! Dude can ride...
No comment on the motor for the standard Empulse. :-X I would also advise this group to avoid speculating... (ha!) ;)
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I understand where you're going with asking us not to speculate, unfortunately, that is kinda like asking us not to breathe. It's what we do! At least until you offer us jobs and we have to sign non-disclosure agreements, at that point our lips are sealed. :D
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Getting back to the motor... The top end power increase is truly top end power, which is what allows us to run gearing more advantageous to rear wheel torque and off-the-line acceleration.
It's a 40 kW motor, not 40 hp. 40kW = 54hp.
Yes. 40 kW peak.. but I was referencing the top-end power, which at least on the Zero drops off noticeably from peak power. Perhaps this is less of an issue on the Empulse due to liquid-cooling?
Edit: here's a dyno test from the Cycle World (http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/05/14/2012-zero-s-road-test/) review of the 2012 S:
(http://www.cycleworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Zero-S-HP-TQ-dyno-chart.jpg)
No comment on the motor for the standard Empulse. :-X I would also advise this group to avoid speculating... (ha!) ;)
Okay. Let's say then that you've nailed the motor for the Empulse R and that the motor for the Empulse is still under consideration during FPD (or has some other riders attached to it preventing discussion).
Stop speculation? Yeah right.. I'm spinning up on speculation for Empulse 2.0 .. and it involves making better use of that size 6 controller..
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The current performance of the Empulse R production Parker motor is 40kW / 82Nm (60.5 ft-lbs).
The current Brammo spec page:
http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/ (http://www.brammo.com/empulse_specifications/)
shows the max motor torque as: 63Nm (46.5 foot pounds)
Brian sez the current motor puts out 82Nm (60.5 ft-lbs)
According to my cheap calculator this is a 23% bump in torque and I find torque MUCH more fun than horsepower.
Heck, this amount of torque is in the ballpark of my R1200R's 85Nm and that was a 1200cc honkin twin that could scoot and weighed 20 lbs more, even if it had to spin up to 6000 RPM to achieve that figure.
Maybe this bump would (should?) attract the marketing types. I appreciate Brian's comments on how Flexible Product Development is at odds with the certainties in stone that marketing favors, but even if specs end up changing again, this is the figure that is being shipped to the public right NOW.
At least the change on the site's spec sheet should be easy to carry out.
And for a sample of one, when I saw the new figure, my heart skipped a beat.
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Stop speculation? Yeah right.. I'm spinning up on speculation for Empulse 2.0 .. and it involves making better use of that size 6 controller..
Yeah... just kidding on that one... I actually enjoy the speculation as much as the next guy. ;D
Better use of the size 6, huh? The Sevcon engineers tend to think we're taking it for all it's got...
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Ahh, 60 ftlb is only 8 less than Zero's 2013 S. :o So now it's almost the same power from both bikes, but one has a 6-speed gearbox and the other weighs 90lbs less. I think eSS took a little lean to the Brammo, but 90lbs is 90lbs.
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Zero runs essentially the same pack voltage and a Size 4 version of the Sevcon. Same peak power - maybe they're able to get away with a Size 4 because the controller and passively cooled motor will hit thermal limits at about the same time? Both companies I'll assume have done their homework, and either Zero is undersizing, Brammo is oversizing, or the particular controllers selected simply work best for each application.
eSS lineup between Brammo and Zero will be dictated by thermals. IMO. At least going by the MIC range tests, the Zero appears to be more efficient.. it's lighter by 120 pounds if we compare the ZF8.5 bike (perhaps less if both bikes remove their onboard chargers).. but I'm really curious how well passive cooling + a smaller controller will work out.
Along those lines, though.. Zero has adapted and reused what appears to be the same basic frame and chassis design since 2006 with the Electricross (and before Zero was Zero). I'm absolutely clueless wrt motorcycle frame designs, but I wonder if it's starting to hit limitations with 250% original power. On the flipside.. the Empulse per Wes Siler's review seems to plead for more power. Certainly that 180 width tire would like some more : )
It does seem like it would be .. "easy" to slot in a one-size larger Parker motor.
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A larger motor? It will be interesting to see if an aftermarket develops for electric motorcycles. How would you tune such a beast? Perhaps the controller is over sized to allow such modifications. Very interesting... not that a guy like me would really need more power. ;D
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Ahh, 60 ftlb is only 8 less than Zero's 2013 S. :o So now it's almost the same power from both bikes, but one has a 6-speed gearbox and the other weighs 90lbs less. I think eSS took a little lean to the Brammo, but 90lbs is 90lbs.
Motor torque is (nearly) irrelevant. Do the calculations to rear wheel torque though the gear ratios... then let's check how comparable the performance is...
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Haha Brian. Kind of what I meant by my gearbox vs weight comment, but nice to have it put more succinctly from the horse's mouth. Feeling confident aren't we. :D
@protomech, You're right 120lbs, because running the 11.5 would seem pointless. I doubt there will be thermal issues. I say this because Zero had none last year. If we do see some I suspect it will be a sign of just how "hot" their maps are.
@ hotrodding. Umm, Sevcon does make a size 8 and 10 folks. ;D