Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Enertia Discussion => Brammo Enertia Plus => Topic started by: Gavin on October 19, 2010, 09:29:07 AM
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I wouldn't mind a decrease in the range if I can increase the top speed to 70 mph or so.
Is this possible? Seems like it could be done with some programming changes, but maybe there are actual limits to the motor?
Thanks
Gavin
off to put in a pre order.
:)
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Good luck with that... I keep on looking for the cheat code to increase the initial torque curve. No wheelies for me.
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The older valence batteries had a max 30s discharge of 120a, at 76.8v that's 9kw.
I think the Enertia uses the Perm 150 motor (pdf link (http://www.perm-motor.de/fileadmin/users_upload/pdf/PMS_Motoren-Generatoren/Datenblaetter_PMS_Motoren-PGS_Generatoren_Englisch/PMS150-L_TD_E_technical_specs.pdf)). That motor is rated at 13.5kw @ 4500 rpm continuous, so the motor can handle additional power.
Now that capacity is doubled, continuous power from the batteries should close to double as well. If you change the sprocket on the rear wheel, I would expect the Enertia Plus to cruise at 70-75 without any difficulties. Acceleration will be a bit slower than stock. The enertia's speedometer will also be incorrect unless you can find a way to reprogram it to compensate for the new sprocket.
Here's a pretty good article discussing changing rear sprockets:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/motorcycle-chain-sprocket/ (http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/motorcycle-chain-sprocket/)
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It just seems to me that if the Empulse can go over 100 with the 6kWh battery and have a top range of 60 miles, then it seems the Enertia plus could go 70-75 mph with the same battery. I know the motor and gearing will affect all that, but i'm not trying to go 100 (i have other rides for that :) ) I am just trying to go 10 mph faster than the standard Enertia...
After all, it is called the Enertia PLUS :)
Gavin
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It would be nice if Brammo offered a choice of gearing. This is not uncommon in the car world (mustangs are offered with 2.73 - 3.73 gearing) or in the e-bike world (native s offers multiple gear choices I think).
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It would be nice if Brammo offered a choice of gearing. This is not uncommon in the car world (mustangs are offered with 2.73 - 3.73 gearing) or in the e-bike world (native s offers multiple gear choices I think).
+1.
I would be happy to lose just a bit of take off speed for cruising at 70 ability. I did that with my 150cc 2 stroke and still have plenty of take off for the city and can go top end much easier. A slightly modded gearing on the Plus will still take any car off the line unless the car is trying to race you.
I will use the Plus much more in the city, but the few time I do highway it, I would like the higher top end. Not worried about the city part as it is easy to beat cars out of red lights...cars are big and heavy and drivers are distracted and tend not to be fast off the line...motorcycle/scooter riders are much more focused from light to light...we have to be to survive :)
Gavin
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So maybe I can ask Brammo directly....
Is there a software change to get the Enertia Plus from 60+ to 70+, or would we have to change the rear sprocket?
And if we have to change the rear sprocket, is there a way to adjust the speedo?
Again, not looking to go 100 like the Empulse, just want enough speed to hit the highways for small sections...60 would work, 70 would actually be safer.
Thanks
Gavin
(PM works too if...:) )
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I would assume that it would require a sprocket change which would also require a software change so that it would be multiplying the motor RPM correctly to get road speed. As the Enertia gets toward 70mph the acceleration drops signfiicantly (kinda reminds me of a Suzuki Samurai "car" that I drove for a while). I think what I'm seeing there is that it's getting closer to the RPM limit of the motor...I'm told electrics "power" drops off as you approach that limit.
In addition for the GRPS and the Zero I was specifically told that you needed to change sprockets for higher speed.
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There was a former user on this forum that changed the rear sprocket. As a matter of background, it is possible that his actual mechanical abilities were somewhat lower than his opinion of those abilities, but he had some issues following the sprocket change. In addition, if memory serves me correct, the bike had been mistreated by the original owner. I don't know if the problems he encountered from the change were a factor in subsequent problems he had with the bike, but it's possible. He had chain issues, incorrect speedometer issues, strange acceleration quirks, and a general squeaky-wheel problem that was solved when he was banned from association with this forum.
A lesson I learned was that Brammo engineered every part of the Enertia to work well with every other part. Change those parts at your peril.
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Oh I agree...which is why I hope Brammo offers this either with a software patch or sprocket change at their end...
Of course I have change many parts on my 2 stroke and a few parts on my MP3-500.
all, knock wood, without issue...but then modding 2 strokes has a long history.
Gavin
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Having seen posts from that user both here and elsewhere I would take anything from him with a grain of salt. That being said Brammo did a very good job of keeping him (a second-hand owner) supported (free of charge).
Brammo isn't very big and so far I haven't seen cases where they haven't tried to put the customers first. I'm sure the service tech would be able to recalibrate the speedo. I'm sure if you contacted them with questions about changing the rear sprocket they would be able to provide some information.
After thinking about your plan I'm not sure you'd want the Enertia to be much slower off the line, which may mean you don't have a heck of a lot of options in changing top speed. The stock already does the 60mph you've asked for and I have had mine to 70mph and I'm not a little guy (and wasn't tucking).
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A top speed of 70 would be grand....
What I need is to get to 65 and be able to hold it there for 10 miles or more. If the stock Enertia Plus can do that (I'm 6 foot and 185 pounds), then I'm fine. But I have found that most bikes ride much better when not straining to go WOT at top speed for miles on end...Perhaps electrics are different?
As an owner of a 150cc 2 stroke with a top speed of just over 60, well I know the need for just 5 miles per hour more... of course I think you always say that when you have a bike :)
But the highest speed limit here through town (and the two interstates are major travel roads for locals) is 65 mph. Outside of the city they change to 75 mph. Now I know the Enertia Plus is a city commuter, but our city roads are often highways out here. So while 60 plus is fine, 65 plus is better and 70 plus is best.
That said, hey maybe I just never take the Enertia Plus when I have to do any travel on highways...which is fine since I have my 500cc scooter and will be keeping it...but I would LOVE to ride the Enertia Plus for all my local travel and save my big ride for out of town trips. Using as little gas for travel and instead using my solar panels for as much travel as possible, that is what I'm shooting for.
Gavin
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Good luck with that... I keep on looking for the cheat code to increase the initial torque curve. No wheelies for me.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A Start
This cheat code gives me invincibility on my Ducati. Its the code I used before I low-sided it though so use with caution...
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(↑, ↑, ↓, ↓, ←, →, ←, →, B, A) yeah....so the konami code works for the Brammo powercycles....cool
:)
Gavin
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Maybe it doesn't need a re-programming...
The Enertia has a Battery Pack Voltage of 76.8V. The Enertia Plus has a Battery Pack Voltage of 88.8V. Now if the Enertia has a top speed of 60+mph, what is the top speed for the Enertia Plus? My calculations would be 69+ mph. Which would be sweet :) (using factor of .78125)
Of course: A) my calcs could be crap. B) the top speed could be regulated and controlled to be 60ish no matter what.
But it seems likely and hopeful that the Plus will have the "out of the box" ability to go 70 mph...which is exactly what I wanted.
Now in 5 years I would like the Enertia Mega to go 90mph and have a range of 150 miles, but for now 70mph will do :)
Gavin
Can I buy one yet??
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Brammo folks have hinted on here that the top speed of the E+ might be more than 60+, and have mentioned that the 88.8V figure might be relevant to that. And yes, they can set a top speed of 20mph if they want to (e.g. if they want to go out of business).
I've always thought that the "customize your torque curve and top speed" ability would be cool. I think that, as long as the program you used to do this would warn you about certain things (e.g. "your initial torque will shoot the bike out from beneath you" "your torque curve will reduce your range to 15 miles, but don't worry--at that top speed you'll be road kill within 10 miles" "your torque curve is too low -- are you some kind of wuss?" "if you wish to set your acceleration this gradual, please provide proof that you have covered all logos or other branding on the bike so that no one will associate Brammo with the putt-putt settings you have chosen") that would be cool.
And, as mentioned elsewhere, an iPhone/iTouch/Android app to do this would be awesome.
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From what I've read electric motors have an effective max rpm and as you approach that it takes more and more energy to accelerate. There's a good chance the Enertia's top speed is not limited by the battery pack (or controller) but by the motor rpm.
Of course, if you change the gearing so that max motor rpm means a higher road speed it would take a larger battery pack to support accelerations on par with the stock Enertia gearing, but the efficiency would be reduced meaning that the range wouldn't be increased as much.
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Many of the new plug in cars, like the Leaf, have two modes, "Economy" and "Sport." Just a push of the button and you get more "vroom" with a little less range. Would think this would be doable on an Enertia.
I'd probably stay in the economy mode most of the time, but it would be nice to have an option if you needed to be on the freeway for a short distance and wanted to stay safe by keeping up with the flow. Or when at an intersection (where it was safe) and there was another driver or rider looking at you with a mocking smirk while he was sitting in his Porsche or on his fancy bike and you wanted to give him an education.
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Or when at an intersection (where it was safe) and there was another driver or rider looking at you with a mocking smirk while he was sitting in his Porsche or on his fancy bike and you wanted to give him an education.
I like the way you put that. It's all in the name of "education."
;D
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Many of the new plug in cars, like the Leaf, have two modes, "Economy" and "Sport." Just a push of the button and you get more "vroom" with a little less range. Would think this would be doable on an Enertia.
I'd probably stay in the economy mode most of the time, but it would be nice to have an option if you needed to be on the freeway for a short distance and wanted to stay safe by keeping up with the flow. Or when at an intersection (where it was safe) and there was another driver or rider looking at you with a mocking smirk while he was sitting in his Porsche or on his fancy bike and you wanted to give him an education.
Leaf and most other EV / HEV are just switchable accelerator mappings, so that the engine/motor will ramp up torque output more or less quickly as you depress the accelerator farther in. Typically 100% accelerator input will give 100% torque output regardless of mode, so if you floor it you'll go as fast as the car will go, regardless of mode.
Brammo could certainly add multiple mappings to the Enertia Plus -- and likely to the Enertia 3.1 at the same time.
If a higher top speed in the Enertia Plus is important to you, let Brammo know! The squeaky wheel gets the grease, or possibly an even taller rear sprocket..
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I love the idea of different 'power maps'; power, economy, hillclimbing, etc. I actually think they'd really only need two settings, though.
Regarding the speed, if the enertia plus could hit and maintain 75mph, that would be really fantastic. Perhaps if the 'dual mode' mentioned was available, they could have the higher top speed available only in the 'power' mode.
Great discussion, everyone!
the webman
aka eric
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UK Speed limit is 70mph and the government has been pledged to raise that to 80mph
60mph may not cut the mustard over here :-\
Empulse figures are fine ! ..... UK needs a Enertia++ though.
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I have faith that the Plus will have final numbers around 70 to 75 mph top speed.
The mileage will decrease quite a bit at that speed, but I really wouldn't mind having a bit more top end and a few less miles....
Mostly will be doing city riding at 40 mph, but would like to hit the highways for a few exits now and then.
No reason for the Plus not to go faster...so we will see if the programming limits it or not.
I will say I still hit the highways now and then on my Stella (top speed of 60 mph), so I guess 60 mph isn't a no go for me...but I would GREATLY appreciate having the more MPH to keep me safer.
Gavin
as for the Enertia + +....yep, I expect that in a few years :) ---likely similar to current bike but top speed of 80 MPH and 150 miles in range...that's the fun of "future" electrics...the batteries and motors should keep getting better and better...the non-fun of "current" electric vehicles...not many options or models; hard to get if not in Cali and other coastal areas, and highish prices and lowish specs....all that will change over the next few year....
g
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What happened to the good old day when you stepped on the gas and you engine actually got gas lol. All the computer is doing is keeping you from giving the engine way more then it needs so your acceleration is more efficient. If you know how to drive an old car you can go just as efficiently with no computer.
On the EV side (or any really powerful motor) there is a risk of damage to certain parts. The first test driver on the Tesla roadster went to the hospital do to whip lash after his first drive. They have since added limiters to it's acceleration. Although the motor and batts technically can handle higher then 65, the rest of the drive train may not have been designed with that in mind. Messing with acceleration curves could over stress parts like shocks, frame, chain etc. In the EV world, limiters are there not just to help you drive more efficiently, but to keep you form ripping the thing apart. Now if they could design it for 75 mph and have you hit a button to go into fast mode that would be awesome. ofcourse you would not always want to be in that mode because a 65 limiter will encourage you to drive more efficiently. When a bike goes 75 your not just stressing the motor, but the tires, the chain the brakes etc.
So in short, I think this is more of a design issue then a economy issue. Also Brammo doesn't want tons of warranty claims so they are not going to let you push the bike any ware near its breaking point. Assuming someone does figure out how to crack the code, I would use caution before pushing it much above stock.
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I have faith that the Plus will have final numbers around 70 to 75 mph top speed.
The mileage will decrease quite a bit at that speed, but I really wouldn't mind having a bit more top end and a few less miles....
Mostly will be doing city riding at 40 mph, but would like to hit the highways for a few exits now and then.
I think we probably will see an increase in the Enertia Plus's top speed.
Brammofan queries Brammo on the Enertia motor (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36797&start=15#p536203) and gets a bonus tidbit about the Enertia Plus motor:
The Enertia “Classic” model uses a Perm PMS-120 motor with a custom winding and some special parts for Brammo.
The Enertia Plus will ship with a Perm PMS-126 motor that greatly improves thermal performance and provides for slightly higher peak power, mostly stemming from improvements made to the manufacturing and calibration process of the motors at Perm in Germany. We have been very impressed/happy with the performance we’re seeing on the Enertia Plus prototypes running around Ashland.
I don't see specs for the PMS-126 online, so it's hard to say what this means as a change from the PMS-120 motor in the Enertia. However, there is a PMS-150 and a PMS-156 motor. Not including the motor jacket, the PMS-156 is about 25% thicker than the PMS-150, weighs about 28% more, and produces about 15% more (continuous S1) power. The PMS-120 to PMS-126 comparison is probably similar.
More mass means that under the same load a bigger motor should run cooler. Say, a 55-60 mph commute.
BrammoBrian states later in the thread (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36797&start=15#p536624):
The Enertia is not intended to be a freeway commuter, the Empulse is the bike for that.
I suspect that also applies to the Enertia Plus. While it may see its top speed rise to 70 or 75 mph, it will never be comfortable at those speeds. A headwind or a gentle slope would cause its speed to drop, possibly dangerously so depending on road traffic.
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Improved thermal performance is huge for me...I kinda hate the fan and anything that limits its use is a big bonus.
A slight increase in top speed will also be very welcome.
But I agree that the Enertia is not a highway commuter.
Interestingly, the Enertia is a great city commuter...obviously, but it is actually an even better suburban commuter. It is near flawless in suburban riding. Easy to ride and I leave every car in the dust from a light. And she love suburban speeds...45 mph and she purrs like a kitten...
It will do highway...but of the 1750 miles I've driven only about 20 have been on the highway. And if the Plus goes 70 or even 75 mph, I still won't do a lot of highway riding. She is light and, while not scary on the highway, well she just doesn't have the "girth" for long highway rides.
But we do have a lot of 55 and 60 mph roads out here and the plus would rock those roads....
That said, heck I've drive a few hundred highway miles on a 150cc scooter that weighs 220 pounds...so anything is doable if ya got the right amount of crazy :)
Gavin
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opps DP....
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New Enertia Plus Motor Controller which allows for greater configuration options and more robust communications with the Brammo VCU (Vehicle Control Unit).
and
Upgraded Motor - Although the power level remains the same, the actively air-cooled permanent magnet AC motor features greater efficiency which reduces the heat generated, allowing more performance to be pulled out of the bike before it reaches its thermal limit.
= YEAH....
Gavin
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Hello, after all these days of waiting at your side, do you have a direct compare between Enertia and the Plus? Are there now "greater configuration options"? I do not see any?