Brammo Owners Forum
General => Brammo News And Views => Topic started by: Brammofan on January 30, 2015, 03:57:49 PM
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Just saw this - a photo taken today by a little birdie at Thunderhill:
(https://brammofan.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/image001.jpg?w=600)
“making drive trains won’t be as much fun as racing….”
Tru dat.
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Never fear: R&D for drive trains MUST involve racing! ;)
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Great news!
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Very true... we will continue to develop our drivetrain (battery, motor, inverter, transmission) technology through Racing as it has been a successful strategy to date.
This bike is my pet project running back to about the middle of last year when I saw the potential to combine the best of two worlds - the high performance of the RR prototype along with the high reliability and low stress racing of the TTX production based racer. So... this bike could be seen as a spiritual successor or natural next step in the development of production electric motorcycles; or at least as I envision it.
I did attempt to run the bike in the final AFM race of the season this past October, but it ended prematurely when we discovered a bad seal in the motor end cap that was allowing gearbox oil into the air gap between the rotor and stator, and thought it best to return to base rather than repair at the track. Since then, I've done some upgrades with the help of friends to further prepare the bike for racing. This track test was opportunistic and perfect for a "shakedown" to ensure the problems encountered last October had truly been remedied. Jaiden Armstrong, a promising young AFM racer, and Ely Schless were on hand to assist me with the riding.
Here's some more photos of the bike from the test:
(http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-NMVBCBb/0/M/i-NMVBCBb-M.jpg)
(http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-Fx9SNfC/0/M/i-Fx9SNfC-M.jpg)
(http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-djk2vHM/0/M/i-djk2vHM-M.jpg)
I'll provide more details as the 2015 race season develops and I determine if this bike is racing under a corporate banner or simply as my hobby outside of the office. Stay tuned...
(http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-2NCj2zm/0/M/i-2NCj2zm-M.jpg)
(http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-hTmXqq3/0/M/i-hTmXqq3-M.jpg)
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And... a quick iPhone video:
http://youtu.be/Y7MMnGwdHC8 (http://youtu.be/Y7MMnGwdHC8)
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Good stuff, looking forward to hearing more about this project. The bike looks fantastic btw!
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And... a quick iPhone video:
http://youtu.be/Y7MMnGwdHC8 (http://youtu.be/Y7MMnGwdHC8)
Looked like a perfect day for riding...
Who was piloting that low flying jet fighter?
G
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No complaints allowed if you can get away with a test in January! It was about 70 degrees and very windy.
The rider in the video is an up and coming AFM novice racer named Jaiden Armstrong. He grew up with Ely Schless' son. Ely was instrumental in the build of this bike.
This bike is roughly double the power of the production bike at 100hp and weighs in under 400lbs. 8)
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Looked like a perfect day for riding...
Who was piloting that low flying jet fighter?
G
http://youtu.be/F5VBF8Fw134 (http://youtu.be/F5VBF8Fw134)
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100hp...nice
Is this the bike Polaris will be building?
G
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will we see it at the eMotoRacing event at NOLA in late March?
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Ely Schless - a name I hadn't heard in a while. I did, however, just see him last week in an old youtube video of a test ride involving an Enertia fitted with knobby tires that occurred on a dirt track. I met him at Laguna Seca several years ago and he was filled with an infectious enthusiasm about electric bikes. I hope he is doing well.
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HVR? High Voltage Racing?
100 hp = 75 kW is a pretty serious draw on a ~9 kWh pack. The standard Empulse pack doesn't give a lot of options for reconfiguration, 84S3P is the only real option for ~310V. But maybe it's not using the same number or type of cells as the Empulse. I wonder what controller it's using, and if it's production-intent.
Is the multi-speed transmission identical or nearly so to the standard Empulse? With double the power, the HVR should have an impressive top speed.
This image link does not work FYI, likely it is to a private album.
http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-2NCj2zm/0/M/i-2NCj2zm-M.jpg (http://brammoelectricmotorcycles.smugmug.com/photos/i-2NCj2zm/0/M/i-2NCj2zm-M.jpg)
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HVR? High Voltage Racing?
100 hp = 75 kW is a pretty serious draw on a ~9 kWh pack. The standard Empulse pack doesn't give a lot of options for reconfiguration, 84S3P is the only real option for ~310V. But maybe it's not using the same number or type of cells as the Empulse. I wonder what controller it's using, and if it's production-intent.
Is the multi-speed transmission identical or nearly so to the standard Empulse? With double the power, the HVR should have an impressive top speed.
Yes - HVR = High Voltage Racer.
75kW is roughly an 8C discharge on a 9.33kWh pack. High, but not unreasonable for a modern Lithium-ion cell. I would say that the standard Empulse pack gives a lot of options for reconfiguration - including the 84S 3P option. Each module is 36 cells, with the standard configuration being 4S9P. You can create a lot of voltage options with this module - by design.
Yes - the 6-speed transmission is identical to the production bike and the top speed is significantly improved over the stock bike. 8)
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100hp...nice
Is this the bike Polaris will be building?
G
This project began last year and is independent of Polaris.
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will we see it at the eMotoRacing event at NOLA in late March?
More likely the Willow Springs or Sonoma event when you hit the West Coast. Should be fun!
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Yes - HVR = High Voltage Racer.
75kW is roughly an 8C discharge on a 9.33kWh pack. High, but not unreasonable for a modern Lithium-ion cell. I would say that the standard Empulse pack gives a lot of options for reconfiguration - including the 84S 3P option. Each module is 36 cells, with the standard configuration being 4S9P. You can create a lot of voltage options with this module - by design.
Yes - the 6-speed transmission is identical to the production bike and the top speed is significantly improved over the stock bike. 8)
Good point. The modules can be configured in 4S9P, 6S6P, 9S4P, 12S3P, 18S2P, or 36S1P for different higher-voltage configurations.
Speculation: Brammo is already using Rinehart controllers on the RR. Rinehart PM100DX is well-suited for mid-voltage applications.. too bad it's still very expensive ($5k MSRP) and heavy (7 kg). It can drive a peak of up to 350A RMS, which produces 75 kW at 220V. 7 modules at 9S4P would give 233V .. so about right for this application.
75 kW from 9.3 kWh is about the same relative draw as the 2012 RR pulling around 120 kW from ~14 kWh.
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Very true... we will continue to develop our drivetrain (battery, motor, inverter, transmission) technology through Racing as it has been a successful strategy to date.
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I'll provide more details as the 2015 race season develops and I determine if this bike is racing under a corporate banner or simply as my hobby outside of the office. Stay tuned...
Since I'm here, I wanted to ask you a question on this post. I'm not at all clear what you're saying here, and I know there's a lot of interest in the Brammo (/Polaris?) racing plans.
First it seems like you're saying that Brammo will continue with a Brammo "bannered" race team as part of drivetrain R/D. But then you're saying you haven't determined if you're racing under the Brammo (presumably) corporate banner or it's your personal hobby.
What am I missing?
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While I'm sure that Brian is fully capable of filling you in on what you're missing, I couldn't help but notice that the clarification you seek MAY be contained in the words, "if this bike is racing."
As I read it, it is a particular bike that may be raced either corporately or privately, not the entire program.
But what do I know? I ain't no rocket surgeon.
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Yeah, I gave up on guessing what people were trying to say a long time ago, if I have the opportunity to actually ask.
And I'm not afraid to ask the stupidest of questions, as a lot of you know. :o
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Very true... we will continue to develop our drivetrain (battery, motor, inverter, transmission) technology through Racing as it has been a successful strategy to date.
...
I'll provide more details as the 2015 race season develops and I determine if this bike is racing under a corporate banner or simply as my hobby outside of the office. Stay tuned...
Since I'm here, I wanted to ask you a question on this post. I'm not at all clear what you're saying here, and I know there's a lot of interest in the Brammo (/Polaris?) racing plans.
First it seems like you're saying that Brammo will continue with a Brammo "bannered" race team as part of drivetrain R/D. But then you're saying you haven't determined if you're racing under the Brammo (presumably) corporate banner or it's your personal hobby.
What am I missing?
Just after the "..." ellipsis in the quote that you condensed were the key words:
This bike is my pet project
In other words, there is a Brammo racing program *and* Brian also has his own personal pet project bikes based on the Brammo hardware. His pet bike which was sighted and spawned this thread may or may not be brought under the official corporate racing program in 2015.
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I have pretty good reading comprehension, thanks. :D
"the official corporate racing program in 2015". What "official corporate racing program"? Did Brammo announce that, or is that as speculative as it appears? Is the Brammo racing program a real program, or is it simply Brammo backing and branding Brian's "pet project"? ...and about a dozen more possible variations.
Simple question, really.
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There's a tab on Brammo's web site, a number of posts on their Facebook page, and an entire forum on here devoted to Brammo's efforts in their racing program (branded Team Icon Brammo in recent years) with the Empulse RR that Brian mentioned in his post. That's their corporate effort. It has involved professional riders like Steve Atlas, Eric Bostrom, Shane Turpin and Shelina Moreda (did I miss anyone?) in recent years. It makes for some great reading.
They also sell the Empulse TTX, which is closely derived from the R, to a number of amateur racers (Arthur Kowitz for instance) and I've seen announcements of teaming up with some other race teams to race Brammo bikes in other series, but I didn't follow those too closely.
Brian has also raced on his own in the past (AFM for example) and has had a couple of project Empulse bikes (not RR's, but souped up R's and TTX versions). He's talked about those efforts as well, but often buried in other posts about what the team was doing. The bike picture that started this thread was another one of his more recent project bikes spotted at Thunderhill, and sounds like he's going a bit further than his previous personal project bikes.
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I'm aware, thanks. (Been following this stuff for a while.) My question is regarding the 2015 season.
As I said above, I don't like speculating.
...giving up and sitting down now. Thanks for playing. :D
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I don't exactly understand the confusion here or why it's particularly relevant, but Flar has it mostly correct. This bike is my pet project, which I contributed my own efforts and resources (money) to bring it to reality. It is supported by Brammo in that they were aware of what I was doing and provided approval for me to proceed. Of course, I tapped into resources at Brammo to help as well when needed, but it was not a part of a larger program nor was it constrained by a particular deadline for completion. I would gladly provide Brammo, or anyone else for that matter, the opportunity to sponsor the bike and enter it into the various race opportunities. I think of it as being similar to Kenyon Kluge's (of Zero) K Squared Racing - http://www.ksquaredracing.com/ (http://www.ksquaredracing.com/).
Regarding the corporate racing plans - I cannot divulge any details on what Brammo or Polaris might choose to do or not to do. The Racing Program has always been a pretty wrapper around our R&D efforts to develop battery and drivetrain technology. If you don't believe that, then I'm sorry, but it is the truth. Our current generation of production lithium-ion batteries and internal permanent magnet motors trace their histories through the Racing effort. Whether this remains the best way to further develop technologies is a debate to be had at the top of the organization(s).
Meanwhile, I will continue to develop this Empulse HVR (High Voltage Racer) to the best of my abilities given the support and resource at my disposal. Not because it's part of a greater plan - just because I'm an electric motorcycle enthusiast, I have more questions than I have answers, and I like racing. 8)
I hope that clarifies things. :)
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Ah, perfect. Thanks so much. That's kind of what it sounded like - especially since I know the racing bug has bit you hard. :D
The confusion is simply because, frankly, we're all grasping at straws for information on the racing program and it's of huge interest to readers and followers. From what you initially said, some wishful thinking could read into it that the Empulse was still going to be produced as it is, and by Brammo, which runs counter to what the "official" word is from Polaris and the legal powers.
It's relevant (to me anyway) to try to understand what racing is going to look like this year. Is it going to be you and a few others like Arthur "privateering" it, or is Brammo going to be a sponsor, or is it Brammo's team, or is it Polaris' team, blah blah blah...
'course, it doesn't help when the caption on the photo on the Brammo Facebook page reads "Brammo Race Team..."
https://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc/photos/a.10151604812355443.1073741886.108820970442/10152565702160443/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/BrammoInc/photos/a.10151604812355443.1073741886.108820970442/10152565702160443/?type=1&theater)
...hope that clears up the confusion on the confusion. :o