Brammo Owners Forum
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Brammofan on May 07, 2012, 05:24:16 PM
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Okay, so here's the video:
The Shocking Truth About Electric Motorcycles - RIDEAPART (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lej-KopK1tc&feature=youtu.be#ws)
And, as background, these are they guys who run Hell For Leather - my favorite motorcycle online magazine.
However, I am ... check that. I'll let you watch, and then I'll share my thoughts.
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These guys have real class. ::) I note they didn't say a word about how inexpensive an EV is to run and maintain or how quiet it is. I think I will make up my own mind about electric motorcycles, thank you very much.
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Hmmm, not sure about all that. I think this is what happens when you put someone who expects no less than ICE performance from an electric bike on a Zero... not a good fit. BTW, why the hell is he on a DS anyway? If your gonna review a DS at least take it off road ONCE... not a single scene were he takes it off road... Seriously, why a DS for such a review? He didnt even wring the battery out, just needed to stop to take a piss, then gave up... lame. Very Top Gear-ish review.
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These guys have real class. ::) I note they didn't say a word about how inexpensive an EV is to run and maintain or how quiet it is. I think I will make up my own mind about electric motorcycles, thank you very much.
Things like "inexpensive to run and maintain" matter very little when you're given a review bike with a full tank of gas / electrons and your only duty is to run the tires ragged and turn it back in a few days later. Wes actually kept the bike for about six weeks, which made for a more complete review than most .. but still, cost of ownership is effectively a non-issue.
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Actually, the actual driving experience for the first half of the video meets my exact expectations of what owning that zero (and many early emotos) would be like. The limitations he talked about are real. That is exactly why I'm holding out for more out of an emoto, like what I'm hoping the Empulse will be. The Empulse represents my bare minimum entry point to the world of EV motorcycles exactly because of the limitations other bikes have, as shown in the first half of this video.
He tried to treat it like an all-afternoon canyon carver, and he correctly showed that it isn't one. That is nothing new to any emoto enthusiast, because we all know this zero was never was designed to do the task he tried to use it for.
There was a whole lot of BS in the second half of the video that was just plain inexcusable. He keeps quoting the city range, while driving 100% on the highway. Either he is just too dumb to know the difference between what is a city street and what is a highway, or he is being intellectually dishonest and pretending that the Highway rating of 62 miles doesn't exist just for editorial purposes. He likely would have achieved the 62 mile Highway rating while driving on the highway, exactly as the Zero website specifies:
City (EPA UDDS) 112 miles
Highway (commuting, 70mph) 62 miles
I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is just being intellectually dishonest because he thinks a Top Gear style review will personally benefit him somehow. But I secretly think he must just be too dumb to ride an emoto, and he should leave it to the smart people he kept bashing in the second half of the video.
It reminds me of stupid people who buy diesel 3/4 ton trucks, and then bitch and complain about the truck when they fill it with regular gasoline and have expensive repairs -- as if it were the vehicle's fault, instead of it being a huge sign of their own personal stupidity.
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Well my impression: besides coming across as spoiled pricks, they set a poor example by showing their drinking and driving and, at the end, when they pull out into freeway traffic, 2-up on a 350cc scooter, almost getting killed. Other than that, great video! :'(
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I'm sorry, but this video is pure b.s.
They were "test-riding" a bike completely out of the bike's element. It's like taking a motocross to a speedway and compare it to superbikes or take a superbike off road and say it sucks because the tires are too slick. Even the few actually good points get lost in the amount of nonsense.
If they want to test the Zero DS they need to test it for the purposes of the bike. Taking it off road, as a commuter, or even as an expensive toy, but trying to go on the road and on the highway with it expecting it to reach its maximum range it's ill intent. Zero may exaggerate a few points, but I am pretty sure they never said the bike could go up a mountain and back in the highway and reach 100 miles. That's misrepresenting the company's claims (and I don't even like Zero!).
Their antics didn't help much either...
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Yeah, those basically track my thoughts on the matter. In the comments (in which protomech has some great ones, as usual) I wrote:
Brammofan | May 7, 2012 6:20 PM | Reply
It’s like you took all the negative parts of your Life Electric reviews, focused on them, gave lip service to the positive aspects and then placed the bike in a situation where it was a foregone conclusion that it would be unable to complete the route.
As long as there is no parity between the range PLUS the refill time of electric vs. gasoline bikes, then it’s just not fair to compare them. We, who currently own these bikes, are well aware of that limitation and freely admit to it. None of us would head out on a trip that would put us in that kind of situation. We might have some contingency plans (e.g. while stopping at the halfway point for a beer or soda, we’d ask the owner if they’d mind giving us a few minutes of re-charge; or perhaps taking some slower speed limit surface streets, rather than the highway) but would never put it in the kind of situation you contrived.
I am sure JT will come on here and say something like “see? what’d I tell you?” I can’t say I disagree, given the route.
Here's Wes's reply:
Wes Siler | May 7, 2012 6:41 PM | Reply
Honestly, I just wanted a chance to ride it on a fun road and, with shooting, we had access to trucks to get to that fun road. Really disappointed by how bad the tires were once we got there though. Just no fun to be had as a result. Wish we’d stayed in town because of that.
Highlighting the limitations of the range is not at all unrealistic. I mean we could have shown what really happens — sitting on your couch at home being boring instead of doing something fun with your friends — when range is an issue, but that’s hardly going to make for exciting viewing, is it?
I've been arguing all day long with my ex, so I will forego this rabbit hole today. I'm hopeful (but not too hopeful), that when they get a chance to ride the Empulse, they'll give it a fair shake.
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Thanks for posting this Harry.
It's probably worth noting that HFL has been more positive and supportive about electrics than any other publication. I've also been something of an advocate, working hard to push pro-electric articles into outlets like GQ, Wired, Wired.com, PopSci, Popular Mechanics, Fox News, Men's Health, Gizmodo, Jalopnik and probably a shit ton more that I've just forgotten.
Drinking and Riding: that was an unfortunate quirk of editing. We were there for 2+ hours and had a big meal etc. I know it makes it look like we just hopped straight on the road after two beers a piece, but that's not what happened. This didn't pop up until last minute editing late last night, and we weren't going to make our dudes pull and all-nighter just to fix a little problem like that. Hopefully people are mature enough to live their own lives. We try to have a hang out segment in each episode because a) it's really hard to have proper interaction with one another while riding (or even remember what to say) and b) to make it relatable to people.
Inappropriate roads: Sure looks pretty up there though, right? I thought that tight little mountain road (note the lack of lane dividers) would be an absolutely perfect place for the Zero. Tight enough for handling to not be overwhelmed by the lack of speed. Since the range wouldn't allow it, I wasn't able to make an informed decision, that was the first time we'd tried it on actual corners. Those tires are AWFUL. We'll go take one of Hollywood Electrics' modified bikes for a spin later this week or next, Harlan promises a little work on the throttle response, gearing and tires works wonders. We'll see.
I'm really, really excited for the Empulse. Range is going to continue to be an issue, but hopefully it'll at least be fun to ride. I'm trying hard to love electric motorcycles and I'm very excited for their future, just a little disappointed to see that they are still in the future and I think that disappointment is what came out in this episode.
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Oh and forgot to address the noise or the running costs.
Noise: the whole "electric bikes are silent" thing is bunk. They're quiet up to about 30mph at which point, just like a normal bike, wind noise becomes all you can hear. I presented a sentence about this while riding, but it didn't make the cut. 10 minute episodes are like that.
Running costs: that scooter costs $5,500. The $8,500 price difference will buy, at $4.50 a gallon, 1,890 gallons of gas. That's at least 100,000 miles of gas. Scooters cost a couple hundred bucks a year, at most, to maintain. That scooter is faster and more versatile than the Zero. What running cost argument? Again, this is something I said during shooting that just didn't make the video. Got to fit a story, personality, action and key talking points into 10 minutes.
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Hi Wes. Thanks for stepping into our little He-Man Gas-Haters clubhouse .. kidding.
The DS tires are garbage. The S uses IRC Road Winner tires .. not really sport tires, but at least comparable to the touring BT45s on my GS500. Same size wheels too.
A more natural comparison for the Zero would be a small gas bike like a ninja 250 or CB250R. Ownership costs for a small bike @ 10k miles/year is on the order of $1200/year, the majority of which is fuel and oil. Ownership costs for the Zero should be about $300-350/year, the majority of which are tires.
If the engine in the gas bike and the battery in the electric bike both last 10 years / 100k miles, then the ownership costs are pretty comparable. $850/year adds up, and chances are that gap will widen as oil continues to rise in cost.
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As far as silence of an EV ride goes, I was thinking more of the people and residences that you are passing and less of the sound heard by the rider. It is true that above 30 mph, wind noise tends to overwhelm the engine noise, but riding a quiet motorcycle around the public will do more for the acceptance of the sport in general than all the loud pipes in the world.
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It's nice to be able to leave at 5 in the morning and not piss off my neighbors.
The very quiet motor operation is an EV signature. It pisses off the "loud pipes save lives" crowd, and certainly you have to ride more slowly and carefully in tight confines like parking lots. Personally, I love it .. I'm going to be seriously bummed out if EVs are forced to retrofit some type of low-speed noise maker.
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With an electric I feel that it is a question of personal needs. For now they're not for everyone.
Ex. The Zero DS in the video seems like it fits the needs of someone in a rural area where there are paved and unpaved roads.
I'm on the pre-order list for the Empulse (#908), I live in South FL and the range is less of an issue for me simply because my daily commute is <25 miles.
According to my Lexus my average daily commute breaks down to an average speed of 29 mph, average 16.9 mpg @ $3.80 per gallon is +-$.23 per mile = +-$28.11 fuel cost per week. I'm able to charge at work so I'm saving +-$112.44 per month.
Being able to tell OPEC to stick it up there ass.... Priceless!
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With an electric I feel that it is a question of personal needs. For now they're not for everyone.
I 100% agree. Today EVs are sometimes vehicles.. they work well for some people some of the time. In my case, they work very well for the majority of my riding.. so I bought one. I definitely would not recommend them without reservation, but those reservations get smaller and smaller as the technology improves.
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Being able to tell OPEC to stick it up there ass.... Priceless!
+1 One of the major reasons im into EVs... I dont like dealing with cartels...
I feel dirty when I fill up at the gas station, like I need to take a cold shower afterwards.
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Thanks for joining the fray, Wes.
I guess the combination of using the truck to get the bike to the video location, but letting it run down to empty on the highway home seemed wrong and kind of 'fishy' to me. Kind of like if you wrote for an aviation magazine and were reviewing an ultra-light kit plane that came with a warning: "Do not fly in severe weather. You will crash." On the day of the review, you check the weather map and see a high probability of thunderstorms just west of you. You drive the ultra-light over to that area a couple hours before the storm front blows through. You shoot some admittedly decent video of the fun times that can be had. Then, as the storm hits, you continue filming...and crash. "If you're a serious pilot, don't bother buying this ultralight - can't even fly in a spirited breeze. Not at all like my Beechcraft Bonanza, which would have shaken off this kind of wind without a problem."
Our electrics don't have the range, and can't refuel in minutes. We know that. Going into the buying process, we are aware of this limitation. About the only comparison with an ICE bike that we care about is the handling - tell us what kind of ICE bike it compares with in that respect. (And that's only relevant to us former or current owners of ICE bikes).
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Comparing it to also scooter seems strange to me too... a similar ICE dual sport, like the Yamaha 250WR would have been much more relevant comparison.
Brammofan, I dont believe he ran the battery out, he stopped because he didnt want to risk it dying on him on that busy highway... in which case I would ride the shoulder or a back road. Just as 1416 stated, he would have gotten very close to Zero's stated highway range (62 miles) if he had wrung the battery out completely.
Seemed like a biased review with an inappropriate comparison to me.
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He did nearly deplete the battery pack, the bike reduces power when the battery is nearly dead and he pulled off the side of the road. He noted the bike had 58.8 miles on it when it stopped.
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Oh, ok... so much safer than the bike just cutting power all together. Makes sense. Still 58.8 is just shy 3.2 miles of Zero's stated highway range.
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Inappropriate roads: Sure looks pretty up there though, right? I thought that tight little mountain road (note the lack of lane dividers) would be an absolutely perfect place for the Zero. Tight enough for handling to not be overwhelmed by the lack of speed. Since the range wouldn't allow it, I wasn't able to make an informed decision, that was the first time we'd tried it on actual corners.
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Welcome to the board, Wes.
There was nothing wrong with the tight little mountain road segment. It was a great place to load up a Zero and take it to test on. Then load it back up again after the test and take it home. Then charge it up, load it up, and take it on some dirt roads the next day, load it up, and take it home. Then you could have actually spent time reviewing how it worked where it was designed to work, instead of taking up half the video intentionally running it out of power in the worst place possible that you intentionally chose to run it out of power.
I hear you are testing a Tuono V4 today. Are you going to test and see if it has the same range and comfort on a long highway road trip as a Honda Goldwing? When you don't get as far as a Honda Goldwing you have going along with it, are you going to run the Tuono V4 out of gas intentionally, and pee on your leg on the side of the road again, complaining about how dangerous it is to run out of fuel? After you intentionally watch it run out of fuel on the side of the road, are you going to dedicate half your video to how crappy it is compared to a Goldwing for long highway road trips? Then say that it obviously is overpriced junk that only some smug young kids would like, who can only afford this bike because they live at home with their parents? (But don't worry, it will help them get laid by underage jr. high school girls.) Poke fun at them like you poked fun at dot com nerds?
Oh, and are you going to quote just the Tuono V4's highway or city MPG, and then claim it doesn't live up to that rating when you test it under the opposite conditions?
Probably not. You will likely take the Tuono v4 on some twisties. You might even load it up in a truck and take it to a track for a run, load it back up and bring it home and only review it on how well it does when ridden for the purpose it was intended. Because that is the professional way to test it.
I just don't think you will ever get it. Sure it is appropriate to point out a vehicle's limitations, if you do it honestly. Real world limitations are great stuff that should be included in any review. But to talk about city range, and then complain it doesn't meet that range on a highway test is nothing less than flat out lying to your audience. And people don't like being lied to. The funny thing is, I don't even really like the Zero DS, and this is the response your piece inspired....
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Remember that you guys represent approximately .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population if you currently own an electric motorcycle. If you can make it fit into your life, that's awesome. We're making a motorcycle lifestyle show for a mainstream audience and your average rider, much less driver, would struggle to find a practical, cost-effective position for an electric motorcycle in their lives.
Dirt? On the stock mapping, there's no way that DS is going off-road. Zero throttle response below 25mph is not what you need when things get slippery or steep. It's a commuter dressed up as a dual sport, that's all. The scooter was there intentionally to highlight the limited performance and practicality. Most people understand what a scooter does. Most people don't care what a 250cc single-cylinder engine is. We're making a show for most people.
Right, off to see the Empulse, maybe I'll see one or two of you there.
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Remember that you guys represent approximately .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the population if you currently own an electric motorcycle. If you can make it fit into your life, that's awesome. We're making a motorcycle lifestyle show for a mainstream audience and your average rider, much less driver, would struggle to find a practical, cost-effective position for an electric motorcycle in their lives.
Dirt? On the stock mapping, there's no way that DS is going off-road. Zero throttle response below 25mph is not what you need when things get slippery or steep. It's a commuter dressed up as a dual sport, that's all. The scooter was there intentionally to highlight the limited performance and practicality. Most people understand what a scooter does. Most people don't care what a 250cc single-cylinder engine is. We're making a show for most people.
Right, off to see the Empulse, maybe I'll see one or two of you there.
Hey Wesley, that's some great information about taking the DS off-road. That would be VERY important information that would be perfect for a video review of the zero DS. You could have spent some time talking about that very important information, instead of your silly intentional stall-it-on-the-interstate stunt. Why didn't you talk about it's off-road faults? Or the tires? Or any of the other multiple excuses you've come up with since the actual video? Including all these things in a review would have actually made your review successful an informative, instead of a childish skit.
But I'm confused about who you think your audience is for your reviews. For example, your next report is going to be on an Aprilia Tuono, which is probably one of the smallest market share holders in the United States market. Brammo has more reservations for the Empulse and Plus than the number of Tuono's that Aprilia will probably sell all year. Are you reviewing it for potential Tuono buyers would like to know what they would be buying? Or will your review be tailored so that Harley riders (a huge market gorilla in the US) will feel 100% justified that the Aprilia Tuono would be a crappy choice for them? Your excuses for doing a lousy job just point more and more to poor thinking than poorly executed schtick.
How about just admitting that you story-boarded a silly Top-Gear style setup long before taping began, and it turned out making YOU look bad instead of making the Zero look bad as you intended. You and your producer made an editorial decision to copy Clarkson's Tesla review of years ago, and you failed. There is no harm in admitting that the storyboards you and your producer came up with before filming turned out to be a complete flop, and no amount of editing could fix it. (10 hours of taping, and you peeing on your leg and flipping off the camera still made it into the decision of what to keep for the final edit? Really?) Admitting failure would make you look bigger than your current behavior of coming up with more and more outlandish excuses for your failure.