Brammo Owners Forum
General => Victory Empulse => Topic started by: roma258 on July 27, 2015, 07:55:30 PM
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Guess we'll find out tomorrow, but guess what just popped up on Brammo's twitter feed:
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/2016-empulse-tt-victory-motorcycles (http://www.hotbikeweb.com/2016-empulse-tt-victory-motorcycles)
(http://www.hotbikeweb.com/sites/hotbikeweb.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/images/2015/07/15014-victory0051.jpg?itok=szIolzNo)
(http://www.hotbikeweb.com/sites/hotbikeweb.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/images/2015/07/15014-victory0025.jpg?itok=4YWkGvUX)
(http://www.hotbikeweb.com/sites/hotbikeweb.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/images/2015/07/15014-victory0121.jpg?itok=g7vIuNCo)
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Just give me that seat and those Battery brackets and I'll be happy.
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Ok hot take:
1.) Well, this is kind of lazy...and really expensive!
2.) Is this a real thing? Photos look pretty professional, but the press release is amateur hour.
3.) Specs are basically 2014 Empulse R right?
3a.) Ok the battery and range look to have been upgraded, which is nice.
4.) If real, parts availability for the Brammo Empulses shouldn't be an issue for the foreseeable future, aftermarket maybe?
So overall, I'm pretty stoked, even though it's a mildly warmed over Empulse. Polaris did the same thing with Indian in their first year and then started knocking out of the park. This is awesome news, if real.
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More importantly . . . . ABS?
If there's ABS, I'll will be the first in line.
If there's no ABS, I already have one of the exact same bike.
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3a.) Ok the battery and range look to have been upgraded, which is nice.
Where did you see that? Looks like exact same battery specs. Maybe a better range cuz it looks like it has the super light after market wheels on it.
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Clicked on the OP link...
"SORRY. YOU'VE FOUND A PAGE THAT DOESN'T EXIST!"
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Maybe they announced it too soon. Brammo shared it on their Facebook.
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And Brammo pulled it from their facebook page. Still up on twitter though. Here's the text:
2016 Empulse TT from Victory Motorcycles
This is a street legal electric race motorcycle. Built on the same platform that set an American lap-speed record at the Isle of Man, it accelerates up to 100MPH+ and the battery fully charges in 3.5 hours. Where it matters most, the Empulse TT is fast. It is 10,400 watt hours of proof that Victory doesn’t just prove performance, we advance technology. The sport-tuned inverted front forks and adjustable suspension are engineered to provide track-level performance. It has the fastest battery charging speed, greatest lean-angle, and advanced regenerative braking system. Wherever the Empulse goes, it electrifies all audiences.
2015 ISLE OF MAN TT
Where there is no room for error, we proved performance. The Isle of Man TT is the fastest, twistiest, and gutsiest race on two wheels, the perfect location to introduce the world to our electric motorcycle. For 37 miles, we pushed a top speed of 144.34 MPH. We averaged 111.62 MPH. We set the record for an American electric bike, and it was our first attempt. We didn’t just prove that we belong; we stepped up on the podium, and proudly waved the flag of modern American muscle.
THE FASTEST CHARGING BATTERY ON THE MARKET
The Empulse’s battery fully recharges in 3.5 hours, and up to 80% in two hours. With a battery capacity of 10,400 watt hours, the Empulse TT can achieve up to 140 miles of range per charge. Advanced regenerative braking returns power to the battery every time you let off the throttle, and all this battery technology comes with a 5-year warranty. No matter how you measure it, this is the best performing electric motorcycle battery on the road.
100+ MPH TOP SPEED.SHORTEST STOPPING DISTANCE. GREATEST LEAN ANGLE. RIDER-SELECTABLE SPORT MODE.
You can take the motorcycle off the racetrack, but you can’t take the race out of this motorcycle. The innovative drive train is designed specifically to maximize power delivery and speed, while the dual Radial Mount Brembo brakes bring all that power to a quick stop. The high performance adjustable rear suspension and sport tuned inverted front forks let the rider attack every corner, so no matter where the road turns, you can drag a knee. 
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Excited to know that there's a path forward....decent update on the battery, hope there's abs.
Now if I can only get portland victory to do my recall and upgrade the firmware.
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Ok hot take:
1.) Well, this is kind of lazy...and really expensive!
2.) Is this a real thing? Photos look pretty professional, but the press release is amateur hour.
3.) Specs are basically 2014 Empulse R right?
3a.) Ok the battery and range look to have been upgraded, which is nice.
4.) If real, parts availability for the Brammo Empulses shouldn't be an issue for the foreseeable future, aftermarket maybe?
So overall, I'm pretty stoked, even though it's a mildly warmed over Empulse. Polaris did the same thing with Indian in their first year and then started knocking out of the park. This is awesome news, if real.
Here's Google's cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:elXtq2MpWkAJ:www.hotbikeweb.com/2016-empulse-tt-victory-motorcycles+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) of the original page. Looks real to me.
Specs look similar to the 2014 bike. The frame and components appear largely the same, with the exception of the wheels and battery enclosure. 2013-2014 Empulse is 9.3 kWh nominal, 10.2 kWh max .. 10.4 kWh is then either a miniscule bump or about an 12% bump. I'm leaning towards the larger bump in capacity, with 10.4 kWh nominal. But then again.. the charging time is listed as identical to the old charging time..
City range increases by about 9%. Could just be lighter wheels and improved powertrain efficiencies, or a different test rider or set of test conditions. Or could be a larger battery.
Brammo will need ABS to continue to operate in European markets, I believe. Victory's more expensive bikes all have ABS. Why not the Empulse too?
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I guess we will learn more tomorrow:
https://instagram.com/p/5p5-48tcAx/
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I'm hoping they will release a faired one too :)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11140073_975344789144680_858921759235093112_n.jpg?oh=6edb78688f81604caff7e07cf1161e2b&oe=55C18F9C&__gda__=1443623639_d619f961df19872c795501e714c2dcbb)
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Tweet now deleted from Brammo's feed.
We'll know more in about 30 minutes.
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It's real!!! Does a happy dance ;D
(http://polaris.hs.llnwd.net/o40/vic/2016/img/motorcycles/my16-overview/media-viewer/modal/empulse-tt/empulse-tt-03.jpg)
http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-tt-titanium-silver-havasu-red (http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/electric/empulse-tt-titanium-silver-havasu-red)
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I wanted to express my (misplaced?) concern about the battery brackets.
From the new images, it appears that communication between the battery cases' fins and the outside air has been blocked.
One of the original design features that I liked was seeing the cases exposed, seeing the fins, seeing the air channels between them, appreciating the increased cooling available and, perhaps, the reduction of sail effect in cross winds which could blow through the mass of the bike.
The new design seems to have cancelled all that, reverting to the "big box" approach used by other manufacturers. Or is my concern merely hot air?
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Down to one model, $1k more expensive than the R, and less torque. They say same motor, so I wonder if that is just a tuning difference. I don't see ABS notches on the front rotors. It appears the Ashland bikes may be the ones to have. 3.6kw charger, and additional 1Kwh of capacity would be nice, however.
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/2016-victory-empulse-tt-electric-motorcycle-road-test-first-ride-polaris-brammo-livewire?image=0 (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/2016-victory-empulse-tt-electric-motorcycle-road-test-first-ride-polaris-brammo-livewire?image=0)
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Sorry, Jeff. No fairing yet, but in August you CAN get performance forks for $2299.99. And I KNOW you're gonna order some!
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From the First Ride article:
"Manipulating the notchy gearbox only provides a slight increase in acceleration compared to parking it in any upper gear."
Really?? Not according to my highly calibrated butt dyno! First gear hauls my assets, 4th, not so much. Kinda makes ya wonder if they RODE the thing! >:(
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My guess that just means the R forks instead of the base forks. So the 2013 R I got in August for 13K is now work 22.5K minus the depreciation. I'm happy with that. I want that seat and I want the windshield.
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Seems ok, but I'm glad I got mine when I did. Hope they offer more lower end models.
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Parts and dealership support, that's all I care about! I think MY 2017 you'll really start to see the fruits of Polaris investment, this is just to tide things over. I do wonder how well these are gonna sell. A $20k Empulse TT is a pretty tough proposition compared to a $16k Zero SR.
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Parts and dealership support, that's all I care about! I think MY 2017 you'll really start to see the fruits of Polaris investment, this is just to tide things over. I do wonder how well these are gonna sell. A $20k Empulse TT is a pretty tough proposition compared to a $16k Zero SR.
Agreed, but the TT is aimed at a different (and smaller!) market segment, and as such, offers much higher quality components partially justifying the cost delta.
I haven't ridden the latest offering from Zero with all the improvements, but I'd be highly reluctant to give up my Brembos! Zero's earlier brakes were less-than-confidence inspiring and in nowhere near the same league. Maybe it's time for another test ride!
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Here's another article from The Verge:
http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/28/9050827/2016-victory-empulse-tt-electric-motorcycle-price-release-date
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There's already a few first ride videos floating around. This is the best write-up I've seen so far. Some new nuggets:
The most notable changes are a lithium-ion battery pack with 10% greater capacity (now rated nominally at 10.4 kilowatt hours), a narrower rear tire, new seat material and a cush-drive setup using rubber dampers in the sprocket to ease the abrupt throttle transitions we noted in our previous testing.
Sometimes the simplest things have major effects, and that’s the case with the switch from the Brammo’s 180/55-17 rear tire to the Victory’s 160/60 rear bun. What’s given up in terms of visual butchness is gained back in spades by dramatically more agile steering responses.
http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html)
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Glad to see the Empulse/ electric motorcycles are making some new noise in the media! I agree with you roma258, by 2016 or 17 there should be a very refined or completely redesigned model that I am now anxiously awaiting :)
At $22,500 for the model with the fully adjustable forks I feel fortunate to have picked up my R for $17,000 (post 10% federal tax credit). And I envy anyone who bought one at the fire sale prices.
Shinysideup I agree with you about the battery bracket redesign. I don't hate the new design but I prefer the original exposed cell look.
I wonder why motorcycle.com thinks that the cush-drive is new? I assume they are just confused unless there is some new and improved version....... probably just confused.
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- Motorcycle.com claims the suspension is fully adjustable (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html). Take with a grain of salt.
- 10.4 kWh is indeed a decent bump in capacity. I suspect this is with a 28s10p battery using the same 10Ah cells.
- 3.6 kW onboard charger is also a small bump. Maybe this is Eltek's 2nd gen Powercharger (http://www.eltek.com/wip4/download_doc_647.epl?id=7055)? The seat-off views sure look like the 1st gen Powercharger still.
- Bold New Graphics! The Victory stickers on the fake tank sure are ugly.
- Price bump to go with the extra battery. It seems like Brammo had trouble moving the bikes even at fire sale pricing; Victory has a rough path ahead of them. But maybe they will be helped by a ...
- Real dealer and support network. This is pretty huge, and honestly probably trumps anything else here. Butts on bikes sell more electrics than all the digital ink spilled.
- No ABS! Zero has been reasonably successful overseas, though not without some struggling. If the Empulse TT sells decently, perhaps a future model will pick up ABS.
- New cast wheels are likely cheaper. A narrower tire is good.. I'm really curious what inputs forced the decision for the 180 width tire on the original Empulse.
At the Empulse's last update, the E1 and 2014 Zero SR both faced off at the $17k price point. I thought that was a fair matchup; the Zero was quicker and lighter, but the more basic Empulse had better equipment and a real level 2 onboard charger.
The basic Empulse has gotten the axe, and that leaves a lightly refreshed Empulse TT at $20k facing off against a $16k Zero SR. Both bikes have 10% more capacity than at the last matchup; the Zero has high quality suspension and ABS brakes now. The Empulse still retains its signature edges: six-speed gearbox, liquid-cooled powertrain, and level 2 charging. But, that price gap!
And when placed in Victory's existing lineup.. it actually lines up okay. None of the Victory bikes are sold on top speed, and the Empulse should be about as fast as the cruisers and faster than the baggers in a straight line. And once you take a turn..
Ultimately the TT bike is not for "us", the electric enthusiasts. Most of us have been riding electric for a couple of years anyways, as soon as production electrics with serious range became available. To us, the TT is boring; small capacity bump, small price bump on top of a light refresh to a bike first introduced 3 years ago. In 3 years Zero has doubled the range of their bikes, doubled the power, and seriously upgraded the quality of the components.. and though that speaks to the room Zero had to grow with their 2012 bikes, it's still disappointing to see only a light refresh of the Empulse.
Instead, the Empulse TT is for the "early mainstream" crowd. Gas riders, who maybe heard something about "those electrics" winning at Pikes Peak or making huge strides at Isle of Man, but never understood what a "Blammo" was. Tesla has done their part to make electrics sexy and desirable; a few years experience with production electrics have put to rest some early concerns about battery longevity (when's the last time you heard doom and gloom about battery life based on cellphone and laptop experience?), and level 2 charging stations are fairly prolific in most larger cities.
Convincing the early mainstream riders that electric is worthwhile will be an uphill road for Victory. $20k is a big scary sticker, but it'll be priced in the middle of all the other bikes on a Victory showroom floor, and I suspect that gives dealers some leeway to haggle with buyers. Polaris has seen a fair bit of success selling the oddball Slingshot, and perhaps they can repeat that with the Empulse.
And you can bet every other traditional manufacturer will be watching with close attention.
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That is an excellent analysis, Protomech. :)
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And you can bet every other traditional manufacturer will be watching with close attention.
This was my thought also. Especially H-D and Livewire. When and IF Harley delivers, then there will be a race between two large companies and that can only help the evolution of electrics, and, possibly, bring others into the arena, if the sales numbers increase.
All we need now is $10/gallon petrol! ;)
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I predict significant factory to dealer incentives by late fall, by which time it will be clear that it's not selling much.
I'm just happy to see the Empulse lives on, because that means continued support for my bike. I'd like to have the skinnier rear wheel (if that's even backwards compatible?), but I'm not going to be putting money into improving my 2013 E1. It serves me fine as is and so I just want to get my money's worth from it in commuter miles.
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I predict significant factory to dealer incentives by late fall, by which time it will be clear that it's not selling much.
I'm just happy to see the Empulse lives on, because that means continued support for my bike. I'd like to have the skinnier rear wheel (if that's even backwards compatible?), but I'm not going to be putting money into improving my 2013 E1. It serves me fine as is and so I just want to get my money's worth from it in commuter miles.
It's only going to become available in Fall 2015. I don't expect to see large initial sales - fall is not a great time to introduce a new bike, but it will prime for sales in the spring next year. If sales are flat then Polaris will probably introduce incentives in the summer.
Zero is also likely to announce their 2016 models in fall, with availability in early 2016. I don't expect to see any huge changes from them, but I would not be surprised if they finally introduce a slightly faster charging solution similar to Brammo.
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Ride Apart picked up the story:
https://rideapart.com/articles/victory-motorcycles-fully-electric-empulse-tt-photo-gallery
My guess is that this is a relatively inexpensive (for Victory) trial balloon to see how their dealers and customers will receive an electric motorcycle. I agree that introducing the bike at the end of the typical riding season in many areas will not generate a big response from their customers. I see this as a "place marker" while they work on their own in-house EV design. But it is still nothing but positive for current Empulse owners. But I am not too sure that Victory's marketing of the Empulse is going to help out Enertia owners much. :(
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I think Motorcycle.com has published the best review of the Victory Empulse so far: http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html)
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Victory's promotional video has me hyped up! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo)
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I think Motorcycle.com has published the best review of the Victory Empulse so far: http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/victory/2016-victory-empulse-tt-first-ride-review.html)
Photo caption from the above:
"If it looks like a Brammo Empulse R to you, that’s because it mostly is. Victory made a few updates and provided new graphics with sparkling gold metalflake in the paint."
I'm hoping they've worked past this debacle:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/polaris-misses-views-on-motorcycle-paint-issues-2015-07-22 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/polaris-misses-views-on-motorcycle-paint-issues-2015-07-22)
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Sorry, Jeff. No fairing yet, but in August you CAN get performance forks for $2299.99. And I KNOW you're gonna order some!
Ha, pretty hard to resist!
But I think I'll try to upgrade my current forks first, fiddle around with air chambers and different oil weight, then maybe upgrade springs, revalve/reshimm etc. ::)
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Victory's promotional video has me hyped up! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo)
Yes, it's a nicely produced video : )
You can embed youtube in the forums directly if using an http link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo
Yields:
Empulse TT - Victory Motorcycles (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_9Q6jzCjo#)
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Well as you can see it has almost completely confirmed the information that my dealer gave me a couple of months ago . Just with a little less autonomy than expected. ABS insurance that will be present on the bikes of 2016 , at least European .
It seems a wise move to keep the base of the Brammo Empulse , also he makes the SR zero .
The path is simple: same model with more autonomy and more features.
.... but the price has to be reduced , I do not think that in Europe many Empulse TT sold at that price.
I bought my Empulse e1 at 10250 e. . new , and had the Empulse R 12500 e. , R at firts wanted to buy , but this had the same set of batteries, and had less autonomy. He had paid 2,500 euros more for 25 % more capacity . E1 benefits are enough for me.
Relative to the wheel I like the 180, a bike fell really sport bike.
And especially with this model victory , as owner of a Brammo Empulse is assured will have a post sales service, something many already doubted
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.... but the price has to be reduced , I do not think that in Europe many Empulse TT sold at that price.
In the Netherlands it would still have the extra tax deductions of 36% (MIA) and the VAT returns, that makes the Victory a Must-Have for all self employed motorcyclists... That is, if they would know about it ???
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Turning , not quite understand the strategy of Victory with this "new" Empulse TT , had been a major blow effect have put the 17 kw / h of Victory TT, and thus counteract the Zero 15.3 . That way if the price would be reflected and also that some current owner changed his bike for the new TT.
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Turning , not quite understand the strategy of Victory with this "new" Empulse TT , had been a major blow effect have put the 17 kw / h of Victory TT, and thus counteract the Zero 15.3 . That way if the price would be reflected and also that some current owner changed his bike for the new TT.
They are using the same supplier for batteries that Zero is so the individual cell characteristics are identical, just packaged and managed differently. I can only assume that going from 7 separate battery modules to 2 is where Brammo/Victory was able to increase capacity ~10% by probably just adding more cells. I remember Brian talking about some new battery tech around the corner that would increase energy capacity 50%... but we all know how new battery tech "breakthroughs" go... oh, and as Protomech mentioned in another thread, that 15.3KWh number Zero uses is nonsense.