Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: HadesOmega on February 07, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
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I know there's another thread about the B40 fault but it's burried in the archives so I started a new one for my case. Sooo the day has finally come Empulse139 is dead in the water. I made a VLOG about it but here's my story. I rode the bike the previous day and the bike ran great as usual no problems. I ran it down to about 26% SOC and then like I usually do I plugged into my Level 2 charger at midnight. I remember I came to check on the bike before I went to sleep and it was at about 76%, I was going to disconnect it if it was around 90% but it wasn't so I just left it charging the whole night.
The next day I hop on to do some door dash and try to fire the bike up. The bike turns on but I get no throttle response and I'm getting a System Faul B40 error. Before I was getting a constant B9 error but I could at least ride it. Now the bike is just dead not going anywhere. All the 12V electronics works so the pack has power and DC-DC converter works but the bike will not move and it will not charge also. I plugged the charge cable in and the screen turns on and nothing happens. Every once in a while the headlight will flash and the green LEDs flat with it.
Annd that's where I'm at. I think it's time to call up Polaris, I haven't been able to find any place that will work on this bike unfortunately. Still 1 year left on the battery warranty so time to really get back on it. Such a shame I've really come to love riding this bike it died on me just shy of 8000 miles. Does anyone know of anywhere that still services these at least in California?
I looked up the B40 fault and it has something about the BMS being in idle mode. I'm thinking something caused the BMS to not function or sleep. Don't know how to wake it up.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-kCmRg7j/0/28f09628/XL/0206211633-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-Zp4N2dq/0/42702727/XL/0206211633a-XL.jpg)
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https://youtu.be/jsVSZIN63w4
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Any idea what B40 means?
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According to the manual and service manual it is
Code B40 | Service Required B40 | System Fault B40 | BMS Back in Idle Mode
I'm guessing it is something wrong with the BMS. Previously I had the B9 error also. So something is up with the battery system.
I'll see if I can download the log files, something must've happened to it while it was charging.
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That's bad luck :(
Try ask someone who already had this error code (MichaelJ or JeffK)
https://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3033.0
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=2986.msg21956.
I wish you would solve the problem as soon as possible.
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Yeah from what I have seen is it goes either one of two ways. You turn the bike off and turn it back on and it runs like it's suppose to. Or the B40 stays there and the battery has to be replaced =(
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Here is a description of the B40 error from the Brammo Enertia repair manual:
"This is a necessary safety feature, however, since this is a latching fault (does not clear until power cycle), care was taken to make it filter glitches and only happen when absolute necessary."
Try the following:
1) disconnect the main battery contact in the front of the motorcycle, leave it disconnected for a while and then reconnect it, try to turn on the motorcycle to see if the error has disappeared
2) try to disconnect the main BMC connector on the top of the motorcycle for a while, then plug it in and try to check if the error has disappeared
3) try to disconnect the two main VCU connectors on the top of the motorcycle for a while, then plug it in and try to check if the error has disappeared
If that doesn't help, contact Polaris to tell you how to fix B40 error. It would be ideal to get a repair manual for Victory / Brammo Empulse.
What firmware version do you have? Is it the latest? Some Brammo Enertia / Empulse error messages have been fixed by uploading new firmware.
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Thanks I will try those things. I was going to try to download the logfiles but I got tied up with another project. Hopefully can get bike started, but I think ultimately before my battery warranty is up I need to search for a service center...
On the start up screen it says it is
Version 02.11
I did email explaining what the problem was to Polaris and they sent me to a Victory website that had a dealer locator on it. So I guess I will try calling up all the dealers around me 2 of which I've already contacted and see if they will service the Empulse.
Here is some of what the email says:
Hello Merlin,
Thank you for contacting Victory Motorcycle Owner Connections. To locate your nearest dealer, you can use our website! Here is the link: https://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/dealer-locator/#q=54002
Please let me know if you have any other questions or if there is anything else I can do to assist.
Check out the Help Center for vehicle information, maintenance tips, and how-to videos. https://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/
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I copied the log files onto my computer but I can't get the Victory Diagnostic software to work on my computer, I even tried it on another one computer and it crashes whenever I start it up. =( Is there any other program I can download to view the log files?
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Sent them to me, if the are the same as the brammo version I can convert them to excel.
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Hmm ok I'll attach some to this post I'm not sure which one to put because I've tried to run the bike a bunch of times since it died on me. I think the date is off by a day. I'll post 2 days worth of logs.
This is half of one days... derp it only let's me post 500kb total I guess this gonna take some work O_o'
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This is the 2nd half of the first days log
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And the 2nd days the're much smaller and there is one more from the next day
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So it should have stopped functioning somewhere around those files here is the latest one
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If I remember correctly, for successful analysis of data from the flash drive it is necessary that this data is complete and in the original format (no partitioning or partial zip archives)
BTW: have you tried disconnecting the main battery connector? Maybe it will save you a lot of time :)
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So today was an interesting day. I had to go to Tracy to do some stuff and there was one of the places that is on victory's list of dealers close to where I was at Tracy Motorsports and I stopped by Arlen Ness on the way home.
Same story with both I to the service department and ask if they service Victory motorcycles and they say yes. Then I ask if they work on Victory Empulse TT? Then they're wait hold one lemme go check and no they don't. Tracy Motorsports never sold an Empulse. Pro Cycles in Dublin said they don't work on them anymore. The guy I talked to showed me a drawer full of cables and an EVSE for all their "brammo" stuff.
So yeah the search continues.
I have not gotten to disconnecting the pack yet, I will do it tonight and leave it disconnected overnight and see what happens in the morning.
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I just disconnected the battery plug and turned the ignition on to double check and got no power. Came back after 15 minutes and reconnected and tried to fire the bike up and still same problem :( I will leave it disconnected overnight and try again tomorrow.
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If I understand correctly, then after disconnecting and reconnecting the battery, the error B40 still appears on the screen? Did you try to disconnect also both BMC and VCU cables? Can you make a video about it, please?
When you were at Pro Cycles in Dublin, did they still have diagnostic hardware and a repair manual for Brammo Empulse? It would definitely be useful to get these things. It should also work for Victory Empulse TT.
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I haven't disconnected anything else. I will try disconnecting the VCU but I think the problem is the battery itself, the bms is inside the battery I think and there's nothing I can do and I don't want to break the seals on the battery. I've been studying how to build battery banks and some BMS I think will go into a standby or failsafe mode when something happens to it and you have to do something to wake it back up I think that might be what's happening with mine.
I left the bike with the charge plug in all night just to see what would happen and it just blinks the headlight and green lights every once in a while. Now the battery SOC is 86% O_o'
One thing I did notice is there are these lights on the battery that blink the bottom battery blinks green and the top one doesn't do anything. So that could mean that there's something wrong with the top pack.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-4pQrt3w/0/9dc1d55a/XL/0209212152-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-hmT7L78/0/7097d4ca/XL/0209212154-XL.jpg)
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So that's very bad news :-(
If the top battery module is not blinking green, the module is in sleep mode. The BMS put this module to sleep because the voltage of one or more cells dropped below the minimum operating value. It's for security reasons.
The first indication of a weak battery cell was the safety shutdown of the motorcycle when you overtook the car at full power on the highway, even in high SoC.
Is the minimum and maximum voltage value of individual cells visible on the motorcycle display?
What is the voltage value of the upper module?
Did both modules discharge evenly or did the upper one discharge more?
If the module cannot be charged with the integrated charger, you can try to charge this module with an external charger. If this succeeds, the battery may wake up again. If that doesn't work, you probably have nothing left but to complain about the battery module at Polaris :-(
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I don't know what to do it just baffles me that the day before all this happened I remembered the bike was running great. No indications of problem with the battery. It even charged up fully. Then bam B40. It was showing 114 volts so I don't think anything disconnected. How frustrating and I've been reading both the brammo and victory service manuals and it doesn't tell you how to troubleshoot battery faults at all. Its like if there is anything wrong with the battery call Brammo up. Like they forgot the section on troubleshooting the battery.
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Oh WOW I was going down the list of Victory dealers that was sent to me in that Polaris email and I'm just going down calling each one and seeing if anyone will work on my bike. Then I get to Clawson Motorsports in Fresno. I asked if they work on Victory Empulse TT and he says no we don't sell Victory motorcycles and then he says hold on let me go ask like everyone else does and he tells me that YES they do work on them. I even asked him to double check 2016 Victory Empulse TT the ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE, because he was talking like it was a starter battery problem, but he came back and said yes. I asked if they do warranty work and they do. He took down the I gave him the year, make, model, and vin number so they can look up the warranty info. So next week I'm going to make the long trek to Fresno (100 Miles) and drop the bike off and hopefully they can fix it.
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You might get lucky HO.... I had never heard of Clawson Motorsports and feared they might be a hole in the wall.... So looked them up on the web, to find that they are a mega store selling everything Polaris, KTM and all of the Japanese big four.... Now that be a store !!!! If you are going to be successful as a mega dealer, you gotta have some good wrenches in the back room. Fingers crossed....
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Yes I had never heard of them either but they must have a technician that worked on them. From what the dealers tell me dealers that had techs that work on our bikes either went their separate ways or went out of business when Victory went away. At least there is a sliver of hope.
For now I have disconnected the main plug, VCU, and AIM modules like Kafr mentioned and I will connect everything back up tomorrow and see what happens. So far no luck. The VCU was easy to disconnect with a 5.5mm socket. The left AIM plug wasn't too hard I had to unbolt the J1772 port and move it aside. The right side connect was in there really good, I took a plastic pry tool and pulled out as far as I could. Its amazing how they crammed everything in there.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-z8Pk7QG/0/de66513f/XL/0210211839b-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-9fPx6Rf/0/dec81b45/XL/0210211839a-XL.jpg)
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Thank you for posting photos of the disassembled motorcycle, it is very useful. For example, I did not know where the flashing green LED was located on the battery module, or that one of the VCU connectors was secured with a screw.
If you could find a technician who can repair the battery of your Victory Empulse TT, it would be amazing. I wish you good luck. ;)
I would also like to know if the technician is able to find out what is causing all these failures. It would definitely be valuable information for us other owners of this great electric motorcycle.
I watch your videos on youtube and I have to admit that you are really testing all the limits thoroughly. I was wondering if using your motorcycle on the race track couldn't be the cause of those failures. After all, there is a much higher thermal load on the engine and battery than in normal operation. What do you think?
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One last thing HO.... AND I'm sure you are probably aware of this.... Polaris just doesn't want to deal with these things.... AND when batteries were failing under warranty, they were giving owners new Scouts or an equivalent $$$$ towards the purchase of another Indian motorcycle !!!! Sure better than a poke in the eye.... Actually, a pretty stand-up thing to do.... No clue if they are still doing this.... I would certainly be the squeaky wheel though !!!!
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Hmm yeah maybe taking it the track reduced its life but that's why there are so many safeties on the bike. I've had it where it was so cold the bike didn't want to charge, where it shows how many amps is going in it was negative current haha probably because the bike is heating up the battery with the heaters. I've had the regen cutoff due to overheating battery. I've had a bunch of times it hit low voltage cutoff. But I feel that's what they designed this bike for riding it fast.
I haven't really posted any of my trackday videos you'd definitely push the bike to it's limits. The bike is only good for 1 or 2 track sessions and after that the battery gets heat soaked from repeated discharging and charging. After that you have to get used to reduced performance, best thing to do is take another bike to the track with you.
Anyway here's what happened today. I got a voicemail from Zach from Victory Motorcycles who sent me the email about finding a service center. He was following up if I got the email and I sent him an email back says yes I got it and I told him that I was able to find a service center but it was 100 miles away. He said to let him know when I've dropped the bike off and he can get things started on his end. So that's good, Victory is aware of my situation and they're going to do something about it.
I plugged all the connectors back in today and and fired the bike up again and nothing new happened. I think it really is a problem with the battery or the BMS. So the ball will be tossed to Clawson Motorsports next week and see what they can do about it. I also got a voicemail from Clawson Motorsports and they told me to bring the charger in with the bike. I will bring my level 1 charger I guess. I did try the stock evse since they mentioned it and still the same problem. I'm pretty sure it's not the evse but I will bring it with me.
So I was putting the bike back together and I was looking at the fuse box and thought hmm I didn't check the fuse box, that's the most basic of things to check right? Anyway I did check EVERY fuse even the high voltage ones after disconnecting the main power again. It very surprising they don't have a fuse box diagram on the fuse box, I had to break out the owners manual. Anyway I checked every fused by checking the resistance with a multimeter. None of them were blown so that rules the fuse box out. I did pull out the relays and put them back in also. So yes I've done everything I could do :(
Also yes I have heard Polaris were buying back bikes. It's surprising how common it is for the battery to malfunction on these bikes. I'm also surprised on the battery warranty I would have thought it would be more because the warranty for California Toyota Prius batteries is 10 years and 150,000 miles. I would think a pure EV battery would have a better warranty. Anyway if they can fix my bike and take care of the B9 and B40 faults I will be happy. If they could replace the battery I would be happy, its clearly defective. That would be the best case scenario. If they can't fix it and they buy the bike back that would be the next best scenario because the alternative is a 475lbs paperweight. I wouldn't mind a FTR1200, I wouldn't mind an Energica also. So we'll see what happens, it's such a fantastic bike I'd like to keep riding it, plus not too long ago I put new tires on it for $500 and I just paid the registration on it. I bought the bike when Victory was going out of business and I got the bike for pretty much $7500 after all the discount, credits, and rebates so I'd say I did ok. I was hoping to get more life out of the bike but I'd say I got my moneys worth. If I had paid full price I would not be happy that's for sure.
Also I feel bad for all the Brammo owners they don't have any support. Victory changed the bike so much the electronics aren't compatible. The only stuff that interchanges is the mechanical stuff.
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Check out the Victory Empulse TT owner group on Facebook. One of them had the same battery problem as you, and Polaris bought the motorcycle back from him instead of repairing it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1495976887113548
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Really sad too read about the trouble with your bike. Saw the videos too. Like you I think the issue is with the bms as the pack voltage seems good. Since Polaris altered the battery packs for the Victory Empulse, you might think they could repair or replace it. Sadly electric bike dealers I've met just exchange parts to the manufacturer instructions. A battery module for my Brammo is over $700 on eBay. It would still need programming and no one seems to do tha
Cars have moved on, people \ companies repair electric cars so we can hope. Best of luck.
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Here are some video I made about my problems with the bike I've tried everything I could time to seek professional help.
https://youtu.be/VTDe6QKNe8M
https://youtu.be/8t985olMCR4
https://youtu.be/PZ3nHfHQ5IU
Another thing I noticed is I was thumbing through the menus and my BTL (Battery Temp Lower) doesn't read anything it's dashed out. Whereas my BTH has a reading. This could be related to the fault could be the temp sensor failed on the lower pack and the BMS is freaking out.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-Q5CjmzF/0/cb22173b/XL/0212212129-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2016-Victory-Empulse-TT/System-Fault-B40-Error/i-ZxXNKvW/0/c3034e52/XL/0212212130_HDR-XL.jpg)
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I'm very sorry that disconnecting the battery, BMC, and VCU connectors didn't help resolve the B40 error. Still, thank you very much for your new videos. The most instructive was the procedure for disconnecting and reconnecting the VCU connector, which is located below the charging port. The BMC connector, on the other hand, is very well accessible. It is interesting how much the location and shape of some of these control modules changed compared to the first production version of Brammo Empulse.
I am sure that the fault is only in the upper battery module (the indicator light does not flash). On the contrary, the lower module is completely OK (LED flashes green). It is the same as the Valence battery modules inside the Brammo Enertia Basic. A flashing green LED indicates a fully functional state, a red solid LED indicates a very low voltage, and if nothing is lit, it means that the module is in sleep mode or is dead.
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Ah ic yeah I knew the Brammo Empulse and Enertia had something like that I just didn't know what they mean. I thought it was some kind of site glass like to check for refrigerant haha. Anybody with a working bike can confirm that the battery lights blink green when they are in normal operation?
It is strange that I can't read the temp for the lower pack though. I'd imagine if the temp sensor malfunctioned it would think the battery is too hot or too cold and stop working. It looks like the B9 fault is tied to this problem.
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I looked at the Clawson Motorsports website and they also offer UTV Polaris Ranger EV. In the years 2016-2018, a version with Brammo Power lithium battery modules was also produced, which are very similar to the modules in the Victory Empulse TT.
https://www.atv.com/blog/2015/08/2016-polaris-ranger-ev-li-ion-polaris-pursuit-camo-preview.html
https://www.polarispartshouse.com/oemparts/a/pol/5a39e2e487a8660eb45db1f4/electrical-battery
If they can diagnose and repair these modules in the Polaris Ranger EV, they should be able to do the same with the Victory Empulse TT. :)
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I believe the high and low temps are cell temps. The highest will be in the working pack, as they can be read and the lowest is just unknown, as there is no communication with the failed pack.. B9 fault shows as moisture ( from Brammo wiki page) so could be related to failure.
Dealership sounds promising from KaFr's info on the place. Must have had so issue over time with the Ranger EV's.
PS. I've not looked but does the usb stick have charging logs on it in addition to riding logs? What program would have been used to read them?
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Hmm I have always thought BTH and BTL is the temps of each battery pack since there are two banks the upper and lower. I remember one of them is always lower than the other also the lower one because it gets more airflow. I actually just looked in the manual and it makes NO MENTION at all about BTH and BTL it totally skips around it. Air Temp, Motor Temp, Range, Power is all it mentions.
Does anyone that have a Brammo have BTH or BTL?
Yes I've done research on the B9 fault and like the B40 no one knows what it is either.
I believe there is charging logs also but I don't have a program that can read the logs. The Victory software didn't want to work on 2 of my computers :(
Also yep I remember when looking for Empulse parts I noticed there were Polaris side by sides that had brammo parts in it. In that parts diagram it doesn't look like those parts are compatible with the Empulse they looks different dimensions but crikeys $4000 and and $7000 for the packs! Would be a waste not to be able to fix the one currently on the bike. If the bike wasn't underwarranty I wouldn't pay for a new pack that's for sure. It would turn into a parts bike =/ I'd might as well just look for another bike. Heh I'll see if I can find a Ranger EV when I go there.
Hmm looks like they don't have the Brammo batteries anymore the 2020 Model uses lead acid batteries
https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev-avalanche-gray/specs/
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I think BTH means the highest battery temperature and BTL is the lowest battery temperature. The temperature is measured in each of the battery modules by several temperature sensors. So the maximum and minimum can be in any module. The same applies to the actual cell voltage during charging. The minimum and maximum cell voltages are displayed regardless of the module in which it is located. I have same experience with Brammo Enertia Plus, where there are also two battery modules.
If the BTL value is not displayed, no information about this temperature is sent to the VCU. In my opinion, the BMS of the upper module does not send information to the VCU because it is disconnected from the operation (error B40).
If it helps, Michalel published a converter of log files to ecxel spreadsheet on his website today (Empulse_Log_File_Converter.zip):
http://www.environ-systems.com/brammo-empulse-r.html
Polaris used Brammo Power batteries for the Ranger EV only in 2016-2018. They had lead-acid batteries before, and then he returned to them. Either because of the high price, or he had a bad experience with them.
They were batteries of a similar type to the Victory Empulse, but had different dimensions and capacity.
Every Polaris dealer can download diagnostic software for Victory Empulse TT. Maybe for interest, I will try to ask the nearest dealer Polaris in Prague (Czech Republic), if he could diagnose my Victory Empulse TT. I think it should be possible, even though this electric motorbike has never been officially imported into Europe.
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I would like to return to your Victory Empulse TT testing on the race track. You mentioned that it was relatively cold before the ride and after the ride the batteries were very hot. I read something about it and pouch cells are very prone to extreme temperature changes in a short time, because they change their volume a lot (compared to cylindrical cells with a solid shell). It is therefore possible that due to the rapid change in temperature and volume, the tightness of the packaging of one of the cells may have been broken. Which could explain error B9 (moisture caused by partial evaporation of the cell into the module space). But that's just my consideration, nothing more.
Here is an interesting article on the pros and cons of pouch cells:
https://medium.com/battery-lab/advantages-of-pouch-cell-battery-trend-and-opportunities-d08a5f0c6804
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Oh GOOD NEWS I found out what the problem with the bike is thanks to KaFr for posting the link to the log file translator I was able to translate the log file and find out the problem. It turns out the temp sensor or a temp sensors in the battery pack failed when it fully charged.
Here is a VLOG explaining how I was able to translate it and how I was able to tell when it happened and find out the culprit. The display on the Empulse is not good at display fault errors or multiple fault errors. From the data in the log files I can tell the battery cells are still in a good state also. But it is very disturbing that multiple sensors (temp sensors) have begun to fail on this bike. Maybe I got a bad one. The motor temp sensor failed in a similar way it reported too hot then it reported too cold.
https://youtu.be/uiloYkuc3E8
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Do you think you'll be able to get a replacement for the temp sensor?
(I've been following your exploits daily with this problem. So glad you tracked down the problem.)
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Great to hear the thoughts, I agree about the sensor. The bms thinks the battery is to cold and thus won't start to protect itself. I've not seen an image of the inside of a Victory Empulse battery but the Brammo ones look like a skilled technician could strip it and replace the faulty sensor. Hoping for you.
Empulse software I've tried needs to see an ixxat attached. No hope. The spreadsheet program looks good on YouTube.
Enertia software partly fails. You can load a log file .log and watch it charge or ride for ten mins. Not seen or tried an enertia plus file.
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I'm really glad that you finally managed to analyze the data from the flash drive. However, the biggest thanks go to Michael (MiBa) from Germany, the former owner of Brammo Empulse R, who made the LOG file converter available on his website.
Here is his profile on this forum: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=10012
Your video is instructive for me too. I came up with the real cause of the B40 error after seeing it. I noticed that in addition to error B8, error B36 also appeared when the battery was almost fully charged. This is a non-standard condition and probably the real cause of the B40 error. I also have experience with my Brammo Enertia+ with error B36. After one long trip in the summer, the batteries overheated due to a combination of high ambient temperature and low SoC. When I charged the batteries, charging stopped at about 86% SoC, error B36 occurred, and battery charging stopped. In order to charge the batteries to a higher SoC, I had to cool the batteries to a lower temperature for a short drive and then it was only possible to charge the batteries to 100% SoC. I think it works similarly for the Victory Empulse TT.
In your case, due to a faulty temperature sensor (B8), overheating of the batteries (B36) at 100% SoC was reported and the system evaluated it as a danger of destroying the battery, so to be sure, it completely disconnected the BMS (B40).
Regarding error B9 shown on the display: in fact it is probably error B8, but the display shows the wrong number, in my opinion.
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In any case, it is very likely that in order to repair or replace a defective temperature sensor, it will be necessary to remove the battery module from the motorcycle and open its cover.
The question is whether the Clawson Motorsports technician is qualified and authorized to perform this repair, or whether he will at least be able to hand over the removed module to his manufacturer for repair. Did you ask them about it?
The only problem is that the battery modules for the Victory Empulse TT were manufactured by Brammo Power, but in 2017 Cummins took over the know-how and production. If Cummins has a commitment to deal with warranty repairs of Brammo modules, this should be easily repairable. Temperature sensors are replaceable, but their specifications are known only to the module manufacturer.
BTW: I found from the list of electrical components the type of temperature sensor that is used in the Victory Empulse TT engine. It is a product of U.S. Sensors, marked USP9540. This sensor should also be replaceable. But it can probably only be replaced by the manufacturer of the electric motor, ie the company Parker-Hannifin.
However, the electric motor of your Victory empulse TT is no longer under warranty, unlike the traction battery.
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Hmm interesting that probe looks like the same one as the one under the tank cover for the ambient temp. I'm not too worried about the motor temp sensor, I just disconnect it. Unfortunately that won't work for the battery because if the battery thinks it's too hot or cold it won't like it.
I don't think the battery overheated, I was charging it like I normally do with the level 2 outlet. I let the bike sit all day, then plugged it in at night while it was cool. It could be a cell got overcharged and got hot, but I think that is even less likely to happen when the battery is at high state of charge because it lowers the charge current when topping off the battery and starts to top balance the pack. The sensors look like the culprit.
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Hi, I've been reading through your log when the b40 error occurred and here's my thoughts. At 12:32am on 07/02/2021 the column that shows module 5 PCBa temp is -50 where the others are 20 to 21 deg. The B8 fault shows at the same time and is caused by the relative humidity being 87% in module 5, much less in the others eg 42%. The last error shown is number of rebuilds on module 5 bq116 suddenly, from 0 to 4451, others now showing approx 5. (no idea what this means). The bq116 monitors those cells and I would guess that moisture has damaged/compromised that chip on the PCB. It did try to restart.
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Ugh what a miserable long day of driving it was today but the bike is at Clawson Motorsports. It was the same story as Spirit. I go in and tell them I'm checking my bike in and I tell them it's an electric motorcycle and then I get this puzzled look on a persons face saying do we even work on those? I also get a couple people asking me hey what's the electric bike like? as usual. He had to go ask if they do work on it and I told him that that's what they told me on the phone that you will work on it.
So kinda bad news. The guy that checked me in at the service counter said that they have had only one other Empulse here and that Polaris told them to NOT work on it. He also mentions that even if they could get their computers to work on the bike they wouldn't really be able to do much. Also the bill just to diagnose the bike is $390! They also tell me the warranty is expired on the bike but I am prepared to play this game this time around. I brought a print out of the warranty information that was in the owners manual and I brought the warranty paperwork that I had signed when I bought the bike.
But the bike is there and they will take a look at it and we'll see in a day or two what is going to happen =/ It doesn't look good...
Oh yeah I got an email from Zach at Victory again asking if I had dropped the bike off yet and I had replied that I was going tomorrow and asked about the motor thermistor problem and he said he would get to back to me on that if that is covered under the warranty.
https://youtu.be/07axleU0RgI
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I just looked at the logs again like EV Promise was talking about module 5 is too cold, like -50C or F not sure what units it's in, I think it's celsius (edit yes it is it says (C)). Also i didn't notice like a dummy the labels for the log file are on the first row haha I was just trying to read all the data by just looking at the values.
Module 1 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 2 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 3 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 4 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 5 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 6 PCBA Temperature (C) Module 7 PCBA Temperature (C)
0 0 0 0 0 0 0
25 25 25 25 24 24 24
25 25 25 25 24 24 24
24 25 25 25 24 24 24
25 25 25 25 24 24 24
24 25 25 25 24 24 24
0 25 25 25 25 22 24
24 25 25 25 18 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
24 25 25 25 -50 24 24
And your right about the humidity that corresponding module has a high humidity, so the B9 fault is related to this. You can see M1 thru M4 are about 40% then M5 is about 88%, even M6 is around 74% and M7 is 53%
M1 Relative Humidity (%) M2 Relative Humidity (%) M3 Relative Humidity (%) M4 Relative Humidity (%) M5 Relative Humidity (%) M6 Relative Humidity (%) M7 Relative Humidity (%)
42 41 44 44 88 74 53
41 40 44 44 88 74 53
42 41 44 44 89 74 54
41 41 44 44 88 74 53
41 41 44 44 88 74 53
27 41 41 44 43 88 74
42 41 44 44 89 74 54
41 41 44 44 88 74 54
41 41 44 44 88 74 53
42 41 44 44 89 74 53
41 41 44 44 88 74 53
42 41 44 44 88 74 54
42 41 44 43 89 74 54
41 41 42 43 88 74 54
Thanks for pointing that out. Now we've sort of pin pointed where the faulty sensors are. I am so tempted to open the battery pack up and just start poking around for obvious signs of water damage in it. I feel the Victory Battery is defective the Brammo batteries seem to be more reliable. That's what you get for going with a new design. The pack probably has poor venting. Also I notice it has 7 battery modules so I guess if we opened the packs up there must be 4 modules on the top battery and 3 modules in the bottom battery like the Brammo Empulse R.
I don't think Clawson Motorsports will even work on the battery because the service manual has no information on how to service the battery. It's like if anything happens to the battery the answer is replace it. O_o' The data logging system is so neat on the Empulse!
https://youtu.be/C4EJxf122YA
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I was poking around with google and I found this post on this forum that someone is trying to repair a water damaged Empulse R battery. This looks like it could be my problem.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/newbie-battery-pcb-repair-component-identification/
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Hi, sadly like you, I don't think they will work on it. The best you could hope for is the lower pack to be changed for a good one from another bike they bought back. I think your warranty will be valid as the moisture in the cell is by poor design or assembly and thus they will make you an offer. Amazing find on opening battery module with moisture issue. I think you're will look like that and not be repairable.Module 5 on my Brammo is front lower, so receives the most water spray off the front wheel so worth other owners downloading their logs to check. I'll look at mine when I come to remove the seat to connect the usb socket for my sat nav. I found and bought the small 12v power connector. (Will enable me to find chargers in places I don't know). Good luck
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https://youtu.be/sb_cfnN9vrI
https://youtu.be/84VIpJqvqbA
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You are doing a very good job, both HadesOmega and EV promise!
As the only owner of the Victory Empulse TT in Europe, I am extremely grateful to you. :)
Now you definitely have more experience than a Polaris service technician. ;D
And it looks like, that only the last shards, that fit into the B8-B9-B40 image, are missing.
Based on your knowledge, I have the following theory:
- the initial problem of everything that followed is the ingress of water into the lower module (module number 5 in the front), either through the BMS connector or another connector.
- subsequent heating and cooling of the battery cells (during driving and charging) increased the relative humidity, which caused gradual corrosion of the BMS board inside the module (there is only one BMS board for all cells inside the module)
- during the last charge, due to a corroded component on the board (which processes the temperature information), it reported a much lower temperature than the other cells (false information)
- therefore, the cell heater in module 5 is switched on to increase the temperature
- however, the temperature was OK and so the temperature of cell 5 and other cells (also due near to 100%SoC) increased until it reached a critical value
- to prevent damage, the control unit disconnected the upper module completely and stopped charging (in the upper module the temperature of one of the cells was probably higher than in the lower module)
So the important thing is that all the cells in both modules are OK. Only some components on the bottom module board are damaged. It is therefore cheaper and easier to repair than if the faulty battery cell had to be replaced.
Don't you remember if you didn't ride in the rain before the first B9 mistake, or if you didn't rinse the front of the motorcycle with pressurized water?
Also about the faulty engine temperature sensor. Maybe it's a similar case. The sensor is OK, but the board to which the sensor is connected is corroded. Isn't this board inside the bottom module too?
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I took another look at your Component Tour video. At 3:36, a cable wrapped around the cooling hose can be seen. This is the communication cable for the bottom module and this connector most likely got the water inside. There are several exposed wires close to the connector. And it's an unprotected place against splashing water, just behind the fender and just above the radiator.
I have a similar experience with the Peugeot E-Vivacity electric scooter. There was (already from the factory) insufficiently insulated connector of the Sevcon engine control unit, which is located above the rear wheel. And with this connector, when driving in the rain, water entered and then it corroded on the motherboard. The manufacturer then had to additionally insulate it as part of the convening event for all manufactured scooters.
I am very surprised that Polaris underestimated such a fundamental thing as the thorough insulation of a connector that is directly exposed to splashing water. :-\
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hello, as the cells each have a temp sensor, you could ice one and see in the logs which on it is. greetings, Gerry
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Ok two things happened today.
I got an email from Zach from Victory and he told me the motor temp sensor is not covered under warranty anymore. No big deal I'll just leave it unplugged I guess.
I got a call from Moss (I think that's his name) the technician working on Empulse 139, but I couldn't answer and he wanted me to call him back. I called the service department but I couldn't talk to him but someone else helped me and he told me that one of the battery modules is damaged and needs to be replaced. I think he mentioned it was the upper module. So like KaFr said the upper pack is not functioning because the green light doesn't blink anymore. So my previous theory about the bottom pack being the problem was wrong, maybe the Victory pack's modules are setup in a different order than the Brammo ones, because I was for sure the 3 modules with the moisture problem were grouped together in the lower pack. O_o', but who am I to argue they have the equipment and skills to work on the bike.
So the service person told me that it's going to cost $7000 in parts to fix it! He is going to put a request to Polaris and see what they say. So the ball is tossed to Polaris. There's a number of things they can do is:
- attempt to repair the bad modules.
- Send the pack back to the Polaris and have them refurbish it.
- Or replace the pack with a new unit.
- Then there's the buyback option.
So fingers crossed I think the best option is replace the bad pack. You can bet for sure if it wasn't under warranty and they wanted me to buy a new pack I would attempt to fix the pack myself.
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I think the information from the technician that the upper battery module is defective still does not rule out that there is excessive moisture in the lower functional module. It could easily have happened that due to a defective humidity sensor in the lower module, some component on its board could be destroyed due to overheating inside the upper module.
It would be best to contact the technician who has worked on the diagnostics of your motorcycle once again to confirm whether there is increased humidity in the lower or upper module. He should also know how the individual packages in the modules are numbered.
The following indications lead me to the fact that the excessive humidity is in the lower module:
1) The numbering of the modules, as you described in your video, is correct in my opinion, because it has similarly numbered Brammo Enertia Basic batteries in the repair manual.
2) Furthermore, there is a much higher probability that water will get into the lower module through the BMS connector, because this connector is directly exposed to splashing water from the front wheel. (The connector of the upper module is relatively well protected by the motorcycle frame, the upper bonnet and is also very far from the front wheel.) In your video about the B40 error, part 3 you can see the detail of the BMS connector on the lower module. The connector has a total of 12 pins, but only a few are used. Other unused pins are blinded with plastic pins. In my opinion, this is a very weak point where water can get into the module. I have a similar experience with my Peugeot E-Vivacity. While driving in the rain, the water leaked into the Sevcon controller, whose PCB board then corroded. The technicians had to put plastic pins in the unused pins, but I additionally sealed it with silicone to make sure it was really waterproof.
3) Increased humidity was only in three packages. If there was moisture in the top module, there would be increased humidity in the four packages.
4) the highest humidity is in package 5 (closest to the BMS connector), in packages 6 and 7 the humidity decreases a bit (they are further from the connector)
Can you please analyze the voltage and temperatures of the individual packages from the fateful moment when the overheating warning appeared. Being extreme in a package can help us clarify where something may have been damaged by overheating.
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Sevcon connector on Peugeot E-Vivacity, which had a problem with leakage:
1) factory modification - unused pins blinded
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2) my waterproofing improvements - transparent silicone sealant
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Enertia Basic battery numbering:
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Yeah I thought it doesn't make sense, I wish I could have talked to the tech directly or he left a message describing the problem. But as long as they can take care of all the battery faults would be nice.
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I wish you, they would replace both battery modules with new ones!
If that doesn't work, I can think of another variant that you would definitely like. ;)
There are a few more unsold Victory Empulse TTs, so Polaris could give you a new whole motorcycle. :)
PaulHMartinez had a similar experience. His first Victory Empulse had an engine failure (coolant leak). He found another Empulse at the dealer's and Polaris gave it to him in exchange.
See Reply #44 on: August 18, 2017, 09:48:44 PM:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3469.30
Unfortunately, his second Empulse also had a fault (battery fault the same as you).
Here is an offer of unsold Victory Empulses:
https://www.cycletrader.com/Victory-Empulse/motorcycles-for-sale?make=VICTORY%7C6772333&model=EMPULSE%7C764966449
Here is the brand new Victory Empulse TT in California:
https://www.motounitedbellflower.com/default.asp?page=xInventoryDetail&id=9900905&p=1&s=Year&d=D&sq=empulse&fr=xallinventory
The price for a whole new motorcycle is almost the same as the price of a new battery for your Empulse. :o
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Based on your video "Empulse LOG file column description", I confirmed my theory that a false extreme temperature of 69 degrees Celsius is reported by a temperature sensor in package number 5. The same package that has a humidity problem. The culprit of the B40 problem is therefore reliably convicted.
How did you get all the values separated in the columns in the Excel table? I did the data conversion from Enertia and I have all the values located in the first column. :(
BTW: In your Excel spreadsheet, you have the values in row number 8 accidentally shifted one column to the right.
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Wow I'm surprised there are still so many out there. I remember when I bought mine they had another one and it was leaking fluid from the bottom of the motor so I grabbed #139. There is one in Morgan Hill the next town over from me on Facebook Marketplace.
I marked all the logfiles I wanted to convert and hit "Generate One Large File" and opened the .csv file in MS excel. That's pretty much all I did. I wish I had a wider monitor.
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Invoke performance also has a problem with the B40 error on its Brammo Empulse R. The status light on one of the seven battery modules is solid green, unlike the others, which are blinking green.
He confirmed to me that this module is # 7 and is located at the bottom of the motorcycle at the very rear (closest to the rear wheel). This confirms our assumption about the numbering of battery modules on Brammo Empulse. At the top are (from back to front) modules # 1, # 2, # 3 and # 4, at the bottom are (from front to back) modules # 5, # 6 and # 7.
And there is no reason why the numbering of battery packs on Victory Empulse should be different. In the upper battery module there are almost certainly packages from # 1 to # 4, in the lower module there are packages from # 5 to # 7. We must take into account that Victory Empulse is the direct successor of Brammo Empulse, so we can certainly expect a great deal of similarity. So there is not a single reasonable reason to change the numbering of modules (packages).
The only thing that might be different is that in the lower Victory Empulse module, package # 5 is not in the front, but it is in the back, because the status lights and main contacts of both modules are in front. But even in that case, it would not contradict my theory of water penetrating the bottom module through the BMS connector. The infiltrated water can easily flow to the lowest point of the module and only start to evaporate there. So the BMS board can be corroded in any part of the bottom module.
Regarding my LOG file conversion: maybe it's because the converter is for Victory / Brammo Empulse and I was converting files from Brammo Enertia. So I'll try to download the data from Victory Empulse and analyze it at the next opportunity. I just firmly hope that the relative humidity inside both battery modules will be at an acceptable level. I haven't noticed error B9 yet.
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Hi, just to reply to KaFr post, I have run the three Enertia files I found on here with the most excellent log reader and they worked. There is not as much info in the logs. Faults, voltages and currents are logged, speed charge rates etc. No moisture meter in the cells. One file charged from 62-93% (1hr 20min), another was riding but had V58 fault ( bit fussy as 12v only dipped to 11.4v) . The files do not contain the vin no.
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Oh, that's a possible difference between Enertia Basic (Valence U1-12XP battery modules) compared to Enertia Plus (Brammo BPM 44/70 battery module). Humidity sensors are present in Brammo modules, just (unlike Victory Empulse) the humidity is measured in the whole module, not in each of the packages. So I see two relative humidity data in my Enertia Plus data. Fortunately, both humidity data are OK (they do not differ too much in value).
I also found a lot of errors and warnings in the data, but fortunately they all resolved on their own. But I'm still going to check the Sevcon connector (S65 and S85 errors) and the BMS connectors (B6 error) to see if these connectors are well sealed against water ingress. I will soon start a new topic about this in the "Brammo Enertia Servicing" section.
BTW: in 2015 my Enertia encountered a V78 error, which caused all files after this error to have the specified creation date of 2022-2027 ::)
My Victory Empulse TT also showed a V78 error due to the traction battery main connector disconnected for 2 months (shipping from Canada to the Czech Republic). Fortunately, after setting the European time, the V78 error disappeared. Nevertheless, I expect the date 2027 (instead of 2020) in the files from the USB drive.
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Hi, there is an image of the vcu board with a lithium coin cell soldered to the board. This know doubt powers the real time clock. They don't last for ever. I've changed a few in laptops. Desktop computers have them also but are easy to change.
Not sure I would open the vcu as we can't set the date anyhow!! I wouldn't know where to take it in UK.
Waterproofing seems like an issue. Front fender extender required. A damp road had water spray debris under the lower yoke on my bike and everything below, restricting the radiator perhaps. Not good, so I've made some changes.
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It's an excel fuction.
in data got to text to colums. and then seperate by ; or ,
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Thank you very much Leander, now the data is much clearer. :)
I just downloaded data from my Victory Empulse TT. I will publish details here later. Among other things, my Victory also experienced errors B8 and B40. Fortunately, it was before the motorcycle was sold to its first owner.
This error never occurred again. Therefore, I assume that the battery modules have already been repaired or replaced by the manufacturer.
Fortunately, the relative humidity of all battery packs is at an acceptable level. The difference between the maximum and minimum humidity is up to 10%.
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Yep it seems the Empulse greatest weakness is WATER
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Well guys I got a voice mail from Andrew at Polaris owners connections and they said they can't repair it because of the battery code. He wanted to talk about the re acquisition process. So it looks like they are going with the buyback option =(. I'm waiting for him to call me back and let you guys know what's going to happen. The first thing I'm going to ask is the bike can't be repaired at all?
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Interestingly, my first error "B8-B40-BATTERY TOO COLD" was not related at all to the increased humidity inside the module. One of the temperature sensors simply measured significantly lower temperature (-15 vs. 37 degrees), SoC (87 vs. 100%) and voltage imbalance (238 mV) of package 5. Also the temperature of the PCB (-15 degrees) of package 4 was significantly lower. Error B40 occurred with SoC of all other packages at 100%. This happened in May 2016.
I think this was because the battery was not charged at the dealer for a long time, which reduced the voltage of package 5 by a large value compared to other packages, and during charging to 100% SoC, the temperature sensors of packages 4 and 5 failed.
They tried to fix it in service mode for about two months, in the meantime a B55 error appeared and in the end package 5 discharged to 0% SoC (other packages had 55 SoC)! This happened in July 2016 and is the last data record from this year.
Other records are from March 2017, when everything was fine and since then no error B8-B40 has appeared.
I conclude from this that the lower battery module, which contains package 5, was replaced by a new one at the dealer. The motorcycle was then sold to the first owner in April 2017.
In retrospect, it may have been a faulty series of temperature sensors or PCB boards that were installed in new battery modules at the factory! The increased relative humidity could in some cases accelerate the failure process.
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Well guys I got a voice mail from Andrew at Polaris owners connections and they said they can't repair it because of the battery code. He wanted to talk about the re acquisition process. So it looks like they are going with the buyback option =(. I'm waiting for him to call me back and let you guys know what's going to happen. The first thing I'm going to ask is the bike can't be repaired at all?
That's bad news, but it was to be expected based on the experience of other Victory Empulse TT owners with a battery failure. :(
Interestingly, the lower battery module is unavailable in the spare parts catalog (unlike the upper one).
https://www.victoryparts.net/oemparts/a/vic/5678f7e087a86611bc5d14de/batteries-and-charging-system-battery-module-mntg
They probably ran out of stock due to warranty repairs. I think they can only replace the module, but they can't fix the PCB or the sensor inside the module.
Personally, I would exchange Victory Empulse for another piece from the dealer and give her a second chance. However, it is possible that the same problem will arise over time. It would be good to get the data in advance from the flash drive, it could suggest something, as in my case.
But the final decision is up to you. Good luck. :)
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Wow so I guess the probability of this happening again is strong. I guess early on they were fixing bikes but now they are not. I kinda feel this should have been a recall.
Andrew did not call me back today, I tried to call Polaris and get a hold of him but they couldn't reach him. I thought he was on a lunch break or something but will just have to wait. Wish he would just email me.
Yeah I'm just thinking what to do now if repairing the bike isn't any option. I was looking at other electric bikes and I'm definitely not going to get the deal I got with this one. It's a shame it ended like this I feel lost right now, there's no other bike on the market that is like this also. I would like an Energica with their new 21kwh pack but it costs more than the Empulse TT at it's msrp price =/ We'll see how much Polaris will give me and if I can find an Empulse for that much I may stick with it.
The only good thing that happened recently is I got my other electric bike my Sur Ron Light Bee running again. Went dirtibiking yesterday and put the supermoto stuff back on. Can't wait to burn some more electrons. At least if the battery goes bad with this bike I can get another pack for less than $2000 instead of $7000 O_o'
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Misc/i-ztD7Xg5/0/bdb6bac9/XL/0222211301a-XL.jpg)
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Could you please ask Andrew from Polaris the following information?
- What is the real cause of the failure of the temperature sensors in the battery module or inside the electric motor? Is it a manufacturing defect of the temperature sensor, PCB, increased humidity, leakage of coolant, or something else?
- Why can't these faults be fixed? Is it the unavailability of spare parts?
- What is the real cause of the electric motor coolant leak? Is it degradation of the seal under the lid of the electric motor due to coolant or something else?
- How many Victory Empulse TT have been affected by these battery or engine failures so far?
- Is it likely that it will eventually affect all manufactured motorcycles?
- Can this fault occur again if the battery module or motor has been replaced with a new one?
If I had to choose a different electric bike than the Victory / Brammo Empulse, I would probably buy a used Zero DS ZF14.4 with a charging tank.
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I realize I didn't post the last video because the forum closed and I forgot. Here's a VLOG on the final verdict. Farewell Empulse 139
To answer your questions KaFr:
- What is the real cause of the failure of the temperature sensors in the battery module or inside the electric motor? Is it a manufacturing defect of the temperature sensor, PCB, increased humidity, leakage of coolant, or something else? All they told me was that one of the battery modules failed and needed to be replace, they didn't tell me how unfortunately.
- Why can't these faults be fixed? Is it the unavailability of spare parts?
What Andrew told me is that there is no parts to fix it. I forgot who I talked to but they said one of the battery packs is no longer available, I'm guessing it is the one that's bad.
- What is the real cause of the electric motor coolant leak? Is it degradation of the seal under the lid of the electric motor due to coolant or something else?
I don't know the answer to this one, there is a leak somewhere and I don't want to take it apart to find out where.
- How many Victory Empulse TT have been affected by these battery or engine failures so far?
I don't know the answer, but from talking to them, it seems like my bike is NOT the first to have these problems. I mentioned that it worked great and then poof it didn't work the next day and he said that seems to be the case for others.
- Is it likely that it will eventually affect all manufactured motorcycles?
I don't know the answer, but it seems likely, keep your bike away from water
- Can this fault occur again if the battery module or motor has been replaced with a new one?
I can't say 100% but my guess is yes and that's why I'd rather not fix it myself and kind of ruling out getting another Empulse.
https://youtu.be/z6VF_STgKu8
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So sad to hear this, Hades. I have really enjoyed following along in your quest to get this fixed and appreciate what the the other members have contributed in trying to help you. I'm happy for you that Polaris is going to buy it back, but yeah, sad to see another Empulse leave the streets.
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HadesOmega:
Thank you so much for answering my questions. It can be seen that Polaris and its service technicians have almost no information and experience with the Victory Empulse TT :-(
Looks like they wanted to kill this project as soon as possible. Similar to what GM did with its amazing EV1 :-(
I wonder if the Victory Empulse TT bought back by Polaris can at least serve as a source of spare parts. Or they could exhibit it in the Polaris Museum :-)
It would be a shame to totally scrap them, when only 219 pcs were made!
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Yeah I definitely think they should go into a museum. But yeah they didn't seem to know much about the bike because they mention they needed to download the softwarw to diagnose the bike. But they probably have worked on those Polaris Rangers before maybe the software is different. Ultimately the reason is they have no more batteries.
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Well there it is guys the end..
https://youtu.be/9cs-OM4MZO4
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Awww. Sad to see her go. It's been great watching your vlog and I think you'll be on a new electric bike within the next year or so. Please stick around the forum -- your contributions have been very valuable.
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It was very nice story, but with a sad ending. :-[
On the positive side, you have been able to enjoy your Victory Empulse TT for several years and also get your money back. :)
In addition, we other owners of this amazing bike were able to learn from your experience. And thanks to that, we will hopefully be able to prevent some typical failures of this bike in order to keep it alive for as long as possible. Thank you very much. ;)
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Sad end for 139, however it was a great ride watching your times and adventures. The deal was sweet so I'd have no regrets if it happened to me. Something else will come along. Enjoyed your company.
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Thanks for following along in my adventures, don't worry I'll stick around and i still have some Empulse content. But yeah I did get a pretty sweet deal with that bike, it's like I was living a dream and I suddenly woke up.