Brammo Owners Forum
General => Off Topic => Topic started by: emotodude on June 06, 2013, 02:23:19 PM
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Any Brammo owners gonna make it? They have been conspicuously absent in the past. I am very curious how they will stack up against the zero bikes, of which I'm sure there will be many present.
http://www.refuelraces.com/start.php (http://www.refuelraces.com/start.php)
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I believe there were a couple of Zero owners there last year, not just employees. I'd love to see some Brammo owners out on track too; Refuel is super-inexpensive and I'd jump at a chance to ride on Laguna Seca.
It helps that Zero's HQ is about 50 miles away from the track. Brammo has shown up the last couple of years to test the Empulse RR, expect to see the RR and the TTX there this year.
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I definitely plan on showing up to the event, but the idea of riding in it makes me slightly gun-shy just because of the insurance aspect. I have State Farm, who apparently used to cover trackdays but no longer does?
Anybody here have insurance that specifically covers trackdays?
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Brammo owners were absent because all they had were a few year old Enertias, and even then not many of them out there I don't believe. Finally the Empulse's are in people's hands.
Brian sent in the REFUEL paperwork a little while ago and Steve will be there with the RR, but Shelina and the TTX were never mentioned. I did try to egg Brain into bringing his personal Empulse and running it, but I suspect he'll be busy enough with running the team. If Brammo owners want Brammo to be rep'd, then they have to show up. Track day insurance is a roadblock for sure. But it is the cheapest track day you'll ever pay for. Seems like it's less than $50 if I read it right. Could be though.
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Update: I am signed up, have purchased some fantastically heinous used leathers, and will be at Refuel!
I've decided that even if I do crash the bike, haha there's not much of a better place to do it than with the full Brammo team standing nearby. Also judging from the TTX at Thunderhill I don't think I can do all that much damage to the thing anyway.
Anybody else attending/riding?
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Keep an eye out for my old Aprila RS50, which is now powered by a 2013 Zero motor.
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Brammo showed up in full force...
http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/06/refuel-2013-total-blast-lots-of-model.html (http://www.electricracenews.com/2013/06/refuel-2013-total-blast-lots-of-model.html)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1005943_10151453277980443_2030009665_n.jpg?dl=1)
With Eric on the RR having the fastest time overall, and Shelina on the TTX having the fastest time in the Production class
G
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Here are a couple of photos of my former Aprilia RS50 enjoying a second life at the REFUEL event. This shows what you can do with a cute IC bike when the engine blows up. I understand that the bike is making 28 hp on a dyno at the rear wheel (stock was about 6.5) and it weighs about the same as it did stock at 280 pounds. The new owner says it ran well, but the power and range were limited by the number of batteries that could be stuffed under that nice bodywork. Henry sure did a nice job hiding the fact that it is now an EV. :)
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1:38.5 is quite good for the Empulse RR; as well as being the fastest EV for 2013 Refuel, it's also nearly 2 seconds faster than the previous EV motorcycle record, also set by Brammo for 2012 Refuel. I'm curious what this will translate at the eRoadRacing nee TTXGP race.
Laguna Seca past races:
2012 TTXGP, Eric Bostrom / Brammo 1:37.1 (QP), Steve Atlas / Brammo 1:35.6 (Race)
2012 Refuel, Steve Atlas / Brammo 1:40.3 (Sport Electric TT)
2012 TTXGP, Michael Barnes / Lightning 1:33.8 (QP), 1:35.3 (Race)
2011 TTXGP, Steve Rapp / Mission Motors 1:31.7 (QP), 1:33 (Race)
2011 Refuel, Steve Rapp / Mission Motors 1:43.7 (Sport Electric TT)
Also I'm excited to hear about Brammo and Zero production bikes on the race track at the same time!
Empulse TTX with Shelina onboard very nearly as fast as a 400+ hp Model S around a track. Very nice.
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Speaking of production bikes racing..
Ian Lebov pulled a 1:58.4 on a 2013 Zero DS w/ Zero S wheels and tires. He hopped on the Electric Motorcycle Forum to post a bunch of videos (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3039.msg14874#msg14874).. including one showing a sneak peek at what might be a 2014 Zero powertrain as well as Shelina Moreda on the TTX.
Quoth he:
Those Brammos were easy to pass ;)
I wish Refuel would hurry up and post results. Obviously the rider has a great influence on laptimes.. and Shelina Moreda on the TTX is clearly much faster than Kenyon Kluge on what I'm calling a preview of the production 2014 Zero. But I'd like to see the production bikes mixing it up too..
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Here is an article by Plug In Cars about the event. Motorcycles are mentioned:
http://www.plugincars.com/electric-vehicle-stereotypes-smoked-refuel-2013-race-laguna-seca-raceway-127646.html (http://www.plugincars.com/electric-vehicle-stereotypes-smoked-refuel-2013-race-laguna-seca-raceway-127646.html)
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Update: I did not, in fact, crash!
(http://i.imgur.com/pjbNJci.jpg)
I'll post more details later, but I just got this video uploaded. Prepare to be riveted and amazed by my assuredly terrible line decisions!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_HLbL9mVY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_HLbL9mVY)
This was a practice session, and as you'll see we only got about 4 laps each time. I was super cautious on the first lap due to being scared of cold slicks. I was very slow, but I was not the slowest! My first laps out were in the 2:20s, and by the end of the day I managed a 2:12.
In any case, the entire event was a spectacular experience. Lots of prototype electrics I hadn't seen before, including a Mini and the Fiat 500e. Some incredible conversions, probably the prettiest of which was a Karmann Ghia, and the fastest of which was an M3 (the link to the news page has a picture). There were Model S everywhere; the place was just littered with them. One interesting thing I learned was that the Tesla Roadster can basically only do about 3 laps max before succumbing to heat.
The bike class was a little exciting . . . lots of homemade contraptions (one of which literally spilled water overflow onto its own rear tire BY DESIGN). Toward the end of the video, at the start of the post-checkered-flag cooldown lap, you can see one of the more hilarious entrants. Basically a giant longboard scooter with some batteries stuck to it. Two Zero riders also somehow managed to T-bone eachother in a corner but both were thankfully fine.
For the most part all the riders were super friendly and excited just to be in a space with other electric bikes. The only other e-bike I've ever seen parked in my garage in downtown SF (which I left a note on to say hi) ended up being a girl who worked at Zero who recognized my bike. Richard, I met your RS50 rider and he was doing quite well. There was also a dude riding a crazy custom converted Honda something who took my bike for a brief spin and came back sporting a genuine Empulse Grin™.
Also FYI there's nothing in the world quite like doing laps and having Shelina and Eric giving you tips and pointers afterward. And everybody on the Brammo team were insanely helpful with both technical and riding assistance. I was incredibly nervous starting out, but very quickly found myself having a ball and wishing the sessions were longer. That marks my second time on a track ever, and I think I may well end up doing it more.
Everybody here should do it next year. Everybody!
Also if you don't mind looking at watermarks, there are a crapload of pictures here (http://www.caliphotography.com/photos/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=24126#page=thumbs) (in the sections that say Refuel)
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"Also FYI there's nothing in the world quite like doing laps and having Shelina and Eric giving you tips and pointers afterward. And everybody on the Brammo team were insanely helpful with both technical and riding assistance. I was incredibly nervous starting out, but very quickly found myself having a ball and wishing the sessions were longer. That marks my second time on a track ever, and I think I may well end up doing it more."
Ok, I just might have to do ReFuel next year. I will admit that I am 100% not a racer. My knee will never get close to the ground. But I would love to ride the track and have some pointers given to me.
The only downside would be being passed by everybody and hearing about how slow the Empulse is :(
Maybe I will have to practice a bit before going.
Gavin
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Laguna Seca is such a fun track. I'd love to ride it some day.. very jealous that you got to do it on your Empulse.
Results are up now:
http://www.refuelraces.com/sportelectrictt2013.php (http://www.refuelraces.com/sportelectrictt2013.php)
There's a pretty even distribution between Brammo and Zero bikes. Both companies are selling bikes now that are faster than the average rider .. so there's not really data to say X is faster than Y. But that's not to say that some ribbing did not occur : )
If I went I'd be coming in at the tail of the pack for sure. Important thing is to improve yourself .. and shaving 8 seconds off your timing is great work.
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"TTX having the fastest time in the Production class"
I have to say, calling the TTX a production bike seems like a bit of stretch. I mean, Lightning will sell you one of their bikes, does that make it production? Kind of a weasley move in my opinion.
If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do, that means the Zero S, DS and FX claimed the top 3 podium spots, and all are faster than than the Empulse around Laguna Seca regardless. I think that's gonna change some perceptions.
That said, E-Bos doing a 1:38.5 is pretty astounding!
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I have to say, calling the TTX a production bike seems like a bit of stretch. I mean, Lightning will sell you one of their bikes, does that make it production? Kind of a weasley move in my opinion.
The TTX is simply an accessorized R aimed at track use, similar to some of the "lightened" Porsche models you can buy from the factory. The customer could do everything to their R that the factory did to the TTX, but they might make some mistakes since they don't have the experience that the factory race team has.
If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do, that means the Zero S, DS and FX claimed the top 3 podium spots, and all are faster than than the Empulse around Laguna Seca regardless. I think that's gonna change some perceptions.
That said, E-Bos doing a 1:38.5 is pretty astounding!
The problem with refuel is that most of the riders/drivers are amateurs (even more so than the AFM, this is basically just a track day reward for EV owners to have fun with) and so the riders themselves are the weak link in their results.
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If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do
The TTX is a production bike -- there was another Brammo customer there riding his TTX (you can see him pass me at around 1:10) that he'd recently purchased. So there were in fact two TTXs on the track! One just happened to have a Shelina as a factory accessory.
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Despite there being no "official" rules regarding the distinction of a vehicle at Refuel. I do not think the TTX complies with most peoples perceptions of a "production" bike. It's not even street legal is it? And how many have actually been sold? If it is street-legal "as sold" and they have sold more that 10 of them, I will concede the point. Otherwise, as I said before "it's a stretch" to call it a production bike. I think most people would consider the Empulse R and the S/DS to be much more the contemporaries. And I was really looking forward to a straight-up Emplulse vs S/DS shoot-out without any of the political maneuverings.
I suspect if Zero had raced an equivalent "tricked out" bike with a "Pro" rider in the production class, there would be similar opinions from the Brammo camp.
Just my opinion :p
If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do
The TTX is a production bike -- there was another Brammo customer there riding his TTX (you can see him pass me at around 1:10) that he'd recently purchased. So there were in fact two TTXs on the track! One just happened to have a Shelina as a factory accessory.
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Refuel doesn't provide much guidance on how to sort out the classes. Here's what they say (http://www.refuelraces.com/register.php):
Prototype: Non-homolugated and purpose-built race bikes
Production: All Stock or Converted production bikes
No clarification on how many must be homolugated. Still, street-legal clearly does not matter .. the Zero MX is a good analogue to the TTX, for example, and it is also classed as a production bike. Non-street legal based on the production X frame and 75-7 powertrain. Limited sales, but certainly not a one-off bike.
Refuel isn't a great comparison between vehicles, simply because the riders are hugely different in skill. Most of the Zeros were piloted by Zero employees that are Refuel regulars; I suspect many of the Empulse bikes are customers with limited track experience.
On the flip side, Kenyon Kluge is an excellent amateur rider on the prototype Zero, but I'll go out on a limb and say that Shelina is probably on another tier.
I'd have loved to see a straight-up comparison with the same rider on both bikes. But there's just simply no straightforward comparison between novice riders, skilled amateur riders, and professional riders.
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Thanks for the rules and link. It was so obvious it eluded me :) If anything I feel it only strengthens my arguement.
Is the Zero S/DS Homologated? Yes. Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Nope.
Is the Empulse Homologated? Yes. Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Nope.
Is the TTX Homologated? Maybe, I don't know, is it? Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Probably. I mean what else would you call it?
See what I mean by "stretching it"?
Ya got me stumped on the MMX. I mean, are all dedicated MX bikes assumed to be "Purpose built race bikes"? I assume the MX is as homologated as the TTX. Neither are intended for street-use, yet both are legal for sale in the US.
Refuel is all about fun, and I think we can all agree everyone came away a winner ;p
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No. My understanding is that "purpose-built" is basically a synonym for prototype or one-off.
The TTX is based on the production Empulse R. It has OZ Racing wheels and race tires, upgraded Brembo brakes and (likely) race-specific brake pads, upgraded Ohlins front/rear suspension, and drops the turn indicators / rear tail lamp / mirrors / onboard charger.
It goes a little further than what was done for the 2012 Zero S bikes to prepare them for TTXGP, with respect to the upgraded brake / suspension components and wheels .. but still clearly a production-based bike.
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Sigh....now I don't know if I'll go to ReFuel next year. I'd love to ride it just for fun, but not if other companies are going to use my slow time as a slam against Brammo.
I'm not a racer nor an employee of Brammo...just a commuter who likes to ride. I've never done a track day in my life.
Oh well, I guess refuel is held at Laguna Seca and I should expect most people who go to be interested in competition. me? I'd just like to ride around the track.
I guess I could do a few practice laps and not ride in the official timed laps?
That way my riding for fun wouldn't be used on the Internet to somehow say the Empulse is slow.
It would be fun to get up over 100 on one of Laguna Seca's straightaways. That I can do. Dragging a knee? Nope. Not even close. I would granny every turn.
I guess ReFuel will become just another race over time. The pros will race against pros and set the faster times. The sponsored bikes mostly ridden by employees will race separately and be next fastest. Then, maybe, the regular joes might get to ride at the end of the day...but even that might fade away. Too bad...but it's just the way it goes I guess.
Gavin
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Ohh, now if all the companies did like Fiat did with the 500e and let people test the bikes at Seca, that would be cool. That would be a nice way to compare bikes. If you could take 3 laps on an Empulse, 3 laps on a Zero, 3 laps on a lightning or mission (when then make production bikes). That would be cool and would let the riders decide for themselves which is faster or steadier or more nimble or easier to ride or funnier to ride.
No sales pitch or fancy slogan or ad can compare to riding the bikes and getting the one you like best.
Some will like a twist and go. Some will like a shifty.
But then we won't have to try and parse out all the Internet noise:
Brammo, we have the fastest times.
Zero, you cheated, we have the fastest times on regular bikes,
Brammo, most of your regular bikes are ridden by employees
And on and on and on...
Side by side riding by true normal Joe's and Joey's at refuel...now that would be cool
Gavin
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Yeah. You can ride in the normal session and skip the SportElectric TT, which is closer to an actual competition race - though for fastest laptime, not for "first to finish".
Biff @ EMF posted this clip of the normal session races. He did not race in the SportElectric TT.
Lap of Laguna Seca on a 2013 Zero XU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM2vGnOH2LU#ws)
Crazy seeing all those bikes on track at once. I love it!
Refuel has a special class for Tesla Employees. Let's see what we can do to split these out for the motorcycles too, with a bit of stalking..
PRODUCTION CLASS - BRAMMO/ZERO EMPLOYEE
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Shelina Moreda 1:51.381 Brammo TTX Empulse
2 Ian Lebov 1:58.351 Zero DS
3 Jamie Perugini 2:00.573 Zero S
4 Eland Eggers 2:02.826 Zero FX
5 Aaron Bland 2:04.607 Brammo Empulse R
6 Paul Robinson 2:04.771 Zero MX
7 Joe Keto 2:06.622 Brammo Empulse R
8 Trevor Doniak 2:07.865 Zero DS
9 Richard Kenton 2:10.161 Zero DS
10 Salome Morales 2:41.058 Zero XU
PRODUCTION CLASS - CUSTOMER
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Arthur Kowitz 2:03.856 Brammo TTX Empulse
2 Susanna Schick 2:08.430 Zero FX
3 Jeff Moore 2:15.027 Brammo Empulse R
PROTOTYPE CLASS - BRAMMO/ZERO EMPLOYEE
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Eric Bostrom 1:38.502 Brammo Empulse RR
2 Kenyon Kluge 1:55.684 Zero S
PROTOTYPE CLASS - OWN CREATION
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Chase Nachtman 2:22.436 F-175 MK.4 Farfle
2 Henry Herndon 2:45.928 RS50-conversion
3 Alex Tang 2:50.110 Honda VF 500-conversion
I think we'd have seen more Zero customer bikes on track, if PPIHC wasn't running at the same damn weekend : )
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Nice stalking Proto (note to self, never piss off Proto)...
So almost all the fast times are employees...I guess that makes sense. Good to see Pinky getting a fast ride in :)
If I run Refuel they could probably time me with a sun dial. :)
G
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That was some nice riding by Biff. Very fast in the straightaways.
He rides much faster than me.
It was nice seeing Eric at the end. That RR is a different beast isn't it.
G
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Yeah. You can ride in the normal session and skip the SportElectric TT, which is closer to an actual competition race - though for fastest laptime, not for "first to finish".
I signed up for the TT mainly cause hey, an extra 20 bucks for more time riding around freaking Laguna Seca.
On a related note, credit goes to Mr. Bostrom for quietly speaking up to the event organizers -- they were about to have the TT be a 1 lap event total for the bikes. I.e. 'hey, go all out and get your fastest time of the day . . . on cold tires!' I was quite relieved they listened to him and gave us a warmup lap.
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Sigh....now I don't know if I'll go to ReFuel next year. I'd love to ride it just for fun, but not if other companies are going to use my slow time as a slam against Brammo.
I'm not a racer nor an employee of Brammo...just a commuter who likes to ride. I've never done a track day in my life.
I am pretty sure Brammo can take care of themselves on this one. Folks that use a slow lap time of a person who's never been on a track before as a reason to slam the manufacturer of the vehicle that person was riding are probably just looking for an excuse to be a douche. And if, rather than participating and riding slowly around the track, you decided to not show up? All that would result from that would be A.) you not getting the awesome experience of the event, and B.) those folks would probably still be douches.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't let douches ruin your fun. And also yes, you can participate in all the other lap sessions and not do the TT (which is the actual timed results thing). The only real barrier to entry is you do need a full set of leathers. I did not have any before, but now oh boy do I ever. A glorious set of used race leathers in black, traffic cone orange, and silver with more sparkles in it than a Twilight movie. Also I'm apparently a HUGE fan of something called World Sports.
Come out and join the fun! Be slow with me!
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Alrighty then. I'm convinced.
If they accept full-circumference zip-together leathers, and if I have any chance of staying upright and on the track with Pilot Road 3 tires, and if Gavin doesn't mind being ousted from the slowest rider position, I'm gonna ride next event!
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You two can fight for 2nd slowest rider position if I'm there.
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Yeah. You can ride in the normal session and skip the SportElectric TT, which is closer to an actual competition race - though for fastest laptime, not for "first to finish".
I signed up for the TT mainly cause hey, an extra 20 bucks for more time riding around freaking Laguna Seca.
On a related note, credit goes to Mr. Bostrom for quietly speaking up to the event organizers -- they were about to have the TT be a 1 lap event total for the bikes. I.e. 'hey, go all out and get your fastest time of the day . . . on cold tires!' I was quite relieved they listened to him and gave us a warmup lap.
Eric is a very nice young man.
G
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It's a date... I can take it slow with all of you...
Wait, that sounds dirty
G