Refuel Races

[flar]

I have to say, calling the TTX a production bike seems like a bit of stretch. I mean, Lightning will sell you one of their bikes, does that make it production? Kind of a weasley move in my opinion.

The TTX is simply an accessorized R aimed at track use, similar to some of the "lightened" Porsche models you can buy from the factory.  The customer could do everything to their R that the factory did to the TTX, but they might make some mistakes since they don't have the experience that the factory race team has.

If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do, that means the Zero S, DS and FX claimed the top 3 podium spots, and all are faster than than the Empulse around Laguna Seca regardless. I think that's gonna change some perceptions.

That said, E-Bos doing a 1:38.5 is pretty astounding!

The problem with refuel is that most of the riders/drivers are amateurs (even more so than the AFM, this is basically just a track day reward for EV owners to have fun with) and so the riders themselves are the weak link in their results.

[Jeff]

If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do

The TTX is a production bike -- there was another Brammo customer there riding his TTX (you can see him pass me at around 1:10) that he'd recently purchased.  So there were in fact two TTXs on the track!  One just happened to have a Shelina as a factory accessory.

[emotodude]

Despite there being no "official" rules regarding the distinction of a vehicle at Refuel. I do not think the TTX complies with most peoples perceptions of a "production" bike. It's not even street legal is it? And how many have actually been sold? If it is street-legal "as sold" and they have sold more that 10 of them, I will concede the point. Otherwise, as I said before "it's a stretch" to call it a production bike. I think most people would consider the Empulse R and the S/DS to be much more the contemporaries. And I was really looking forward to a straight-up Emplulse vs S/DS shoot-out without any of the political maneuverings.

I suspect if Zero had raced an equivalent "tricked out" bike with a "Pro" rider in the production class, there would be similar opinions from the Brammo camp.

Just my opinion :p

If you discount the TTX as a production bike, which I do

The TTX is a production bike -- there was another Brammo customer there riding his TTX (you can see him pass me at around 1:10) that he'd recently purchased.  So there were in fact two TTXs on the track!  One just happened to have a Shelina as a factory accessory.

[protomech]

Refuel doesn't provide much guidance on how to sort out the classes. Here's what they say:

Prototype: Non-homolugated and purpose-built race bikes
Production: All Stock or Converted production bikes

No clarification on how many must be homolugated. Still, street-legal clearly does not matter .. the Zero MX is a good analogue to the TTX, for example, and it is also classed as a production bike. Non-street legal based on the production X frame and 75-7 powertrain. Limited sales, but certainly not a one-off bike.

Refuel isn't a great comparison between vehicles, simply because the riders are hugely different in skill. Most of the Zeros were piloted by Zero employees that are Refuel regulars; I suspect many of the Empulse bikes are customers with limited track experience.

On the flip side, Kenyon Kluge is an excellent amateur rider on the prototype Zero, but I'll go out on a limb and say that Shelina is probably on another tier.

I'd have loved to see a straight-up comparison with the same rider on both bikes. But there's just simply no straightforward comparison between novice riders, skilled amateur riders, and professional riders.

[emotodude]

Thanks for the rules and link. It was so obvious it eluded me If anything I feel it only strengthens my arguement.

Is the Zero S/DS Homologated? Yes. Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Nope.
Is the Empulse Homologated? Yes. Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Nope.

Is the TTX Homologated? Maybe, I don't know, is it? Is it a "Purpose built race bike"? Probably. I mean what else would you call it?

See what I mean by "stretching it"?

Ya got me stumped on the MMX. I mean, are all dedicated MX bikes assumed to be "Purpose built race bikes"? I assume the MX is as homologated as the TTX. Neither are intended for street-use, yet both are legal for sale in the US.

Refuel is all about fun, and I think we can all agree everyone came away a winner ;p

[protomech]

No. My understanding is that "purpose-built" is basically a synonym for prototype or one-off.

The TTX is based on the production Empulse R. It has OZ Racing wheels and race tires, upgraded Brembo brakes and (likely) race-specific brake pads, upgraded Ohlins front/rear suspension, and drops the turn indicators / rear tail lamp / mirrors / onboard charger.

It goes a little further than what was done for the 2012 Zero S bikes to prepare them for TTXGP, with respect to the upgraded brake / suspension components and wheels .. but still clearly a production-based bike.

[Gavin]

Sigh....now I don't know if I'll go to ReFuel next year. I'd love to ride it just for fun, but not if other companies are going to use my slow time as a slam against Brammo.

I'm not a racer nor an employee of Brammo...just a commuter who likes to ride. I've never done a track day in my life.

Oh well, I guess refuel is held at Laguna Seca and I should expect most people who go to be interested in competition. me? I'd just like to ride around the track.

I guess I could do a few practice laps and not ride in the official timed laps?
That way my riding for fun wouldn't be used on the Internet to somehow say the Empulse is slow.
It would be fun to get up over 100 on one of Laguna Seca's straightaways. That I can do. Dragging a knee? Nope. Not even close. I would granny every turn.

I guess ReFuel will become just another race over time. The pros will race against pros and set the faster times. The sponsored bikes mostly ridden by employees will race separately and be next fastest. Then, maybe, the regular joes might get to ride at the end of the day...but even that might fade away. Too bad...but it's just the way it goes I guess.

Gavin

[Gavin]

Ohh, now if all the companies did like Fiat did with the 500e and let people test the bikes at Seca, that would be cool. That would be a nice way to compare bikes. If you could take  3 laps on an Empulse, 3 laps on a Zero, 3 laps on a lightning or mission (when then make production bikes). That would be cool and would let the riders decide for themselves which is faster or steadier or more nimble or easier to ride or funnier to ride.

No sales pitch or fancy slogan or ad can compare to riding the bikes and getting the one you like best.
Some will like a twist and go. Some will like a shifty.

But then we won't have to try and parse out all the Internet noise:
Brammo, we have the fastest times.
Zero, you cheated, we have the fastest times on regular bikes,
Brammo, most of your regular bikes are ridden by employees
And on and on and on...
Side by side riding by true normal Joe's and Joey's at refuel...now that would be cool

Gavin

[protomech]

Yeah. You can ride in the normal session and skip the SportElectric TT, which is closer to an actual competition race - though for fastest laptime, not for "first to finish".

Biff @ EMF posted this clip of the normal session races. He did not race in the SportElectric TT.


Crazy seeing all those bikes on track at once. I love it!

Refuel has a special class for Tesla Employees. Let's see what we can do to split these out for the motorcycles too, with a bit of stalking..

Code: [Select]

PRODUCTION CLASS - BRAMMO/ZERO EMPLOYEE
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Shelina Moreda 1:51.381 Brammo TTX Empulse
2 Ian Lebov 1:58.351 Zero DS
3 Jamie Perugini 2:00.573 Zero S
4 Eland Eggers 2:02.826 Zero FX
5 Aaron Bland 2:04.607 Brammo Empulse R
6 Paul Robinson 2:04.771 Zero MX
7 Joe Keto 2:06.622 Brammo Empulse R
8 Trevor Doniak 2:07.865 Zero DS
9 Richard Kenton 2:10.161 Zero DS
10 Salome Morales 2:41.058 Zero XU

PRODUCTION CLASS - CUSTOMER
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Arthur Kowitz 2:03.856 Brammo TTX Empulse
2 Susanna Schick 2:08.430 Zero FX
3 Jeff Moore 2:15.027 Brammo Empulse R

Code: [Select]

PROTOTYPE CLASS - BRAMMO/ZERO EMPLOYEE
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Eric Bostrom 1:38.502 Brammo Empulse RR
2 Kenyon Kluge 1:55.684 Zero S

PROTOTYPE CLASS - OWN CREATION
POS DRIVER LAP TIME VEHICLE
1 Chase Nachtman 2:22.436 F-175 MK.4 Farfle
2 Henry Herndon 2:45.928 RS50-conversion
3 Alex Tang 2:50.110 Honda VF 500-conversion
I think we'd have seen more Zero customer bikes on track, if PPIHC wasn't running at the same damn weekend : )

[Gavin]

Nice stalking Proto (note to self, never piss off Proto)...

So almost all the fast times are employees...I guess that makes sense. Good to see Pinky getting a fast ride in

If I run Refuel they could probably time me with a sun dial.

G

[Gavin]

That was some nice riding by Biff. Very fast in the straightaways.

He rides much faster than me.

It was nice seeing Eric at the end. That RR is a different beast isn't it.

G

[Jeff]

Yeah. You can ride in the normal session and skip the SportElectric TT, which is closer to an actual competition race - though for fastest laptime, not for "first to finish".

I signed up for the TT mainly cause hey, an extra 20 bucks for more time riding around freaking Laguna Seca.

On a related note, credit goes to Mr. Bostrom for quietly speaking up to the event organizers -- they were about to have the TT be a 1 lap event total for the bikes.  I.e. 'hey, go all out and get your fastest time of the day . . . on cold tires!'  I was quite relieved they listened to him and gave us a warmup lap.

[Jeff]

Sigh....now I don't know if I'll go to ReFuel next year. I'd love to ride it just for fun, but not if other companies are going to use my slow time as a slam against Brammo.

I'm not a racer nor an employee of Brammo...just a commuter who likes to ride. I've never done a track day in my life.

I am pretty sure Brammo can take care of themselves on this one.  Folks that use a slow lap time of a person who's never been on a track before as a reason to slam the manufacturer of the vehicle that person was riding are probably just looking for an excuse to be a douche.  And if, rather than participating and riding slowly around the track, you decided to not show up?  All that would result from that would be A.) you not getting the awesome experience of the event, and B.) those folks would probably still be douches.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is don't let douches ruin your fun.  And also yes, you can participate in all the other lap sessions and not do the TT (which is the actual timed results thing).  The only real barrier to entry is you do need a full set of leathers.  I did not have any before, but now oh boy do I ever.  A glorious set of used race leathers in black, traffic cone orange, and silver with more sparkles in it than a Twilight movie.  Also I'm apparently a HUGE fan of something called World Sports.

Come out and join the fun!  Be slow with me!

[Shinysideup]

Alrighty then. I'm convinced.

If they accept full-circumference zip-together leathers, and if I have any chance of staying upright and on the track with Pilot Road 3 tires, and if Gavin doesn't mind being ousted from the slowest rider position, I'm gonna ride next event!

[protomech]

You two can fight for 2nd slowest rider position if I'm there.