Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: EddieM on November 03, 2020, 08:05:25 PM
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Hi everyone. New to the site
I just purchased a 2014 Empulse R that has been sitting in storage for 2 years uncharged.
The bike will not take a charge on the batteries. I read on the forums here that there is a smaller battery that may need to be charged to let the whole thing start.
My question is where is this battery plug that I can connect to? Is it the small white connector under the seat with the two small bullet style ends? (Kinda looks like an older battery tender end.) If so, Do I just put 12 volts to it from a battery for a bit to let it charge? And how do I know which is pos and which is Neg?
Thank you so much. There seems to be a lot of very helpful ( and smart) people on here.
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I don't think there is a 12v auxiliary battery on the Empulse. It runs off the dc dc converter connected to the main battery.
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Brammo Empulse has only seven BPM 15/90 battery modules, no other battery to charge.
If it has not been charged for two years, the modules are most likely in sleep mode. Each battery module has full discharge protection. It's called Over-discharge interlock.
You may bring them back to life, but you must choose a special charging procedure for each module. You may need Brammo diagnostic software and hardware.
If you don't succeed, I know a man from Germany who owns seven spare BPM 15/90 modules and Brammo SW / HW.
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It is possible to charge each of the 7 modules seperate with a 4s(eries) Lipo charger to get them up enough. it is a tedius process.
also check the fuses. and the charge unit cable in the bike.
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I built a charger using two of the following 54.6V chargers connected in series. The doubled voltage generated was enough to charge all 7 modules at the same time. Connected to the Negative terminal under the seat and Positive terminal next to the motor controller/contactor. An Electrical Genius on the Forum, suggested this to me and it worked in my case.
Safest 54.6V 2A Charger Lithium Ion Battery For Electric Scooter Bicycle E-bike (EBAY)
CyberG
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Hello I just save this thread I currently also have a empluse that wont charge however i have the B40 BMS idle mode issue. I have also isolated the culprit to battery module #7 due to the fact the green status LED stays solid green when the bike is powered on instead of the normal interval blinks. Additionally on the battery voltage status I'm showing on 87V when the battery is actually 101v so it appears to be missing the BMS information from that module. Does any one have any ideas how it restart a module in idle mode?
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I have seen a picture or diagrame once somewhere that indicated a reset jumper/switch on the bms in the module.
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Hello invoke performance,
here are some tips from the Empulse owner for fixing error B40:
87V mean open circuit voltage
3.1V per cell.
The cells within a module are probably different beyond the tolerance limit.
Probably the modules with each other too.
I would do the following:
A) Charge all modules to 15.6V.
That is then 3.9V per cell.
Charging can be done with a power adapter.
Check the voltage frequently.
If the onboard charger still does not charge:
B) Open module 7.
All you have to do is unscrew the top cover.
The individual voltages of the cells can be measured on the screws.
If the difference is too big:
Charge the cells individually to 3.9V.
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Here is a picture of an open battery module:
4s9p Module (7 Modules in series)
1st. cell voltage could be measured between Screw 9-8.
2nd. ...... 8-7.
3rd. ....... 7-6.
4th. ........6-5.
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Fantastic! Thank you so much for explanation. I will do the following and post the results.
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Hello i charged my #7 module to 15.56v and it still would not communicate with the BMS. So i attempted to open the top cover to see inside but it was very difficult. Is the top cover glued down? I don't want to damage the plastic housing to much. Thanks in advance
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I think you can open the battery module without worrying about damaging the seal.
By the way, nice video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p61NrHmZks
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Great video KaFr, watched and liked some of your other vids too. Not putting Brammo or Zero in the titles has robed you of views. Really shows how to recover from a shut down battery. Left parked for a month, mine lost 30% of battery. Disconnected the main plug now.
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The author of the video is invoke performance, so he deserves thanks for it all. I hope that he will also film the disassembly and repair of the battery module.
I'm also going to make some videos when the winter is over and the weather is better for rides on my Victory Empulse TT.
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I think i will try one more thing before i open the battery seal. im going to attempt charge the battery up to 15.6 which is 3.9 per cell and film the results. Because based on my past experience slow 2.0a charge rate allows enough time for the battery to exhibit a self balance effect across the cells.
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The VCU should balance the cells, when you have a 100% charge it begins balancing them, that's why its recommended you charge it up to 100% and leave it plugged in every once in a while.
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Well guys i tried everything i know i charged each of the 7 modules to 16v (4v per cell) still no BMS response, :'(
I also verified proper balance all cells where within .050 volt of each other, which should be close enough for the BMS to top balance this away. so i have 111.5v to the controller as seen in the pic below the VCU only sees 6 of the 7 modules. Number 7 is still a solid green while he others are blinking as normal. Does anyone have any other ideas of what i should try thanks in advance.
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I wish I knew :-\, sems like the bms has no contact to the 7th module. Why isn't there a brammo repairmen/woman outthere who helps us out! Isn't this technique also used in vorklifts and couldn't we get help from them? There are some great guys on this forum, but every help is welcome!
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I think there is nothing left but to disassemble the battery module and measure the voltage of the individual cells. Is there a reset button on the module or on the VCU? Did you try to clean the BMS or VCU connectors?
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I think there is nothing left but to disassemble the battery module and measure the voltage of the individual cells. Is there a reset button on the module or on the VCU? Did you try to clean the BMS or VCU connectors?
KaFr- thanks for the tips. My previous trial by error understanding leads me away from disassembling the 7th module because @ 16v is its charged to nearly capacity which leaves very little room for any sizable cell voltage discrepancies between the 4S cells. My best guess is that given I charged it at a very slow 2Amp rate cells will naturally balance internal voltage.(theory tested with 12s3p Chevy volt battery charged at 2A without BMS and they self balanced within .005). If this where not so there would be a very high current rush inside that 7th module once is is reconnected to the other 6 working modules possibly blowing the fuse. Not to mention I had a very hard time opening the module for some reason and I really didn't want to damage the plastic housing if I could avoid it. The battery also has no external signs of water intrusion but I will still open it to be sure. Is there any glue holding the lid?
Also I will take your advice and clean and check the VCU connections. If unsuccessful I will attempt to sniff the CAN from my working bike and hope to find the working BMS protocol and inject it into the VCU to see if it resets. But if anyone knows where a VCU reset button is please let me know.
Thanks so much for everyone's help with this I'm confident we can save this Brammo.
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I have a Brammo Enertia and there is a reset button. It required you to remove the "tank" and it was located up near the handlebars. Wish I had more information and could help you with the Empulse. Keep trying!!
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It is also possible that the BMS cable or BMS board inside the module may be defective.
Or the cable leading from the BMS connector to the BMS board may be poorly soldered. I encountered this when I disassembled the Valence battery module for Brammo Enertia.
Try replacing the BMS cable with a cable from another module to rule out a BMS cable failure.
One more note: each module has its own programmed number, so it must always be located and connected in the circuit in the same place.
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Very good tip I will try to switch cables and see if the module responds.
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It can be seen from the picture that there is only a rubber seal under the cover of the module. So you don't have to worry about damaging it when disassembling the module.
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Hi, I thought I would offer a couple of suggestions regarding module 7. You could write to Ottens or perhaps the man in France who had a set of spare modules and the laptop, software and leads for advice. Somebody bought these items. Battery firmware notes say from ver 5. "If the interlock is thrown, but the interlock control lines look OK, reset the interlock ".
Or alternatively connect a rs485 plug to the module from a laptop and using the battery software on this site. I would guess it would need the 12v in addition to the data leads.( Can't imagine the board is powered by the cells) Mouser sell the plug with wires. See what it says.
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I think it's a very similar problem with the B40 error as HadesOmega has.
Read this topic, maybe it will help you:
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=4041.45
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Hi Invoke performance,
can you please confirm that your battery module which the control unit does not see (the LED is constantly green) has the number 7 on the label?
If so, where is this module physically located on the motorcycle?
Could you please download the data from the flash drive, and find out (following the HadesOmega procedure) more details about the B40 error?
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In order to remove the top cover of the Brammo Empulse battery module, you must unscrew:
1) two nuts that fix the bms contacts
2) two contact screws (under transparent caps)
3) 12 screws on the edge of the lid
Then the top cover should go off. Rubber seals can be self-adhesive, but this should not be a problem.
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View inside the module after unscrewing the lid:
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I opened the #7 module today and found corrosion on the PCB. I am very lucky it did not appear to damage to any of the components. So I carefully cleaned the corrosion from the board and did not find any other signs of moisture intrusion in the module . This finding correctly corresponds with the previous owners claim of a moisture fault preceding the current B40 fault. finally during my examination I noticed the RESET jumper on the PCB. I wonder if this can be used in some way to awaken the 7# module and free it from the B40 error?
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Thank you very much for posting the photos after opening the battery module.
It seems that the water did not penetrate in larger quantities, but in several different places (the nut of the BMS connector and also the pole screw?).
Could you please add a more detailed photo of the RESET jumper?
I would like to help you, but I need the following information from you:
- Did you analyze the data from the flash drive? Did error B8 occur in addition to error B40?
- Did you measure the voltage of the individual cells of the module? What is the difference?
- After thoroughly removing the corrosion from the PCB board and reconnecting it, is the status LED still solid green?
BTW: another confirmation that this is module number 7 (the last module in the series) is a plastic plug on one of the BMS connectors.
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Oof it looks like what was happening inside my motor cover, more stuff to damage inside the battery though.
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Thank you very much for posting the photos after opening the battery module.
It seems that the water did not penetrate in larger quantities, but in several different places (the nut of the BMS connector and also the pole screw?).
Could you please add a more detailed photo of the RESET jumper?
I would like to help you, but I need the following information from you:
- Did you analyze the data from the flash drive? Did error B8 occur in addition to error B40?
- Did you measure the voltage of the individual cells of the module? What is the difference?
- After thoroughly removing the corrosion from the PCB board and reconnecting it, is the status LED still solid green?
BTW: another confirmation that this is module number 7 (the last module in the series) is a plastic plug on one of the BMS connectors.
I will post more pics of the reset jumper later today,
-I had issues opening the log converter files on my PC is there a way that i could send you the raw brammo files from the flash drive?
-I measured the voltage across the 4 cells and there was no deviation across them all four read 3.933 perfectly
-finally I will reinstall the module today to see if the BMS stays solid green i plan to post more findings today
Confirmation: Yes this is #7 module with the terminator bms plug at the end.
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Of course, I can help you analyze the data.
What is the total size of the data on the flash drive?
Can you share the data via dropbox.com or something like that?
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the total size is 1.5gb do you have a dropbox account ! can send it to?
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the total size is 1.5gb do you have a dropbox account I can send it to?
or would i be easier to email?
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Yes, I have a dropbox account. Due to the large amount of data, the only option will be the dropbox. My email in PM.
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I have just analyzed the data and there are the following serious errors:
A6 : AIM Module Not Responding
B7 : Battery Fault: Module Lost
B8 : Battery Fault: Temperature Sensor Failure
B32 : Battery Fault: Sanity Error (No communication)
B40 : BMS Back in Idle Mode
There are also the following warnings:
B55 : Battery Fault: SOC Mismatch > 30%
B64 : Battery Fault: 300A Over Current Warning
COME TO FULL STOP : Vehicle Speed not zero when throttle switch was turned on
The following errors are probably caused by disconnecting the cables:
DASH OFF - NO MESSAGE : Dash CAN Processor Failure
V69 : SPI Flash Memory Failure
V78 : Real Time Clock Not Working
I'll send you the exported files so you can take a closer look.
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Thanks I will look at the logs! here are the close ups of the module reset jumper.
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Thanks for the very illustrative photos. I think resetting the battery will be easy. 8)
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No problem! Today I reinstalled the module on the bike after the corrosion clean and got the same B40 condition. So it seems that it will need a reset of some sort. So I will await your ideas on how to reset the BMS board thanks. My best guess is to completely complete the HV side circuit with all modules present with the cover off, three way current shunt connected, and then connect the BMS connector to energize the the PCB as normal. Finally connect a jumper to the reset pin and see what happens I just have no idea if it needs to be a momentary, pulse, or continuous connection. What do you think of this plan?
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If I understand correctly, have you already connected all the modules to the HV circuit, connected all the BMS and the LED of module number 5 is still solid green? Did you try to connect to EVSE to verify if charging starts despite error B40? Can you send me the latest data from the flash drive to check if any errors have disappeared?
I will try to ask MiBa about the correct procedure of resetting the module and then let you know.
BTW: Do you have any information from the previous owner under what circumstances the B40 error occurred? Is it the Brammo Empulse from this owner?
http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3910.0
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Correct I had all 7 modules connected to HV circuit and I turned on the ignition and the light stayed solid green while the others blinked as normal. But I did not try to charge the bike I will try that tonight.
Also I forgot to reinstall the usb into the bike so I dont have any new logs but I will do it for this next test
the previous owner said he rode the bike in the rain an shortly got the B9 moisture code then a few days later the B40 stopped the bike. Also I bought the bike from a guy in Alabama so its not the same as the one in the link.
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It might also be a good idea to check the AIM Module connector as well.
There is an A6 error in the data - this module does not communicate.
Maybe the same problem with the ingress of water.
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very good I will inspect that today also.
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I tried the reset Jumper procedure on the number 7 and no luck :'( the led light is still solid green and the B40 error is still present.
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First, it is necessary to analyze the current data from the flash drive and find out whether other errors B are still present.
If no error disappeared after cleaning the corrosion, most likely some electronic component on the PCB is damaged.
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Hi everyone !
sorry I missed some messages on the charging issues thread since I lost interest in fixing the Empulse due to no parts and help in my area (Hongkong)
However I had some minor Victory - fixing the charging with a hack.
Anyone wants details please contact me directly
+85290400620 whattsapp
or email
holzhammer@hotmail.com
If anyone comes accross this thread with major rebuild knowledge on the Empulse please contact me too.
might relocate the bikes to Austria for the rebuild - anyone nearby in Europe who wants to join my project or willing to share knowledge please contact me.
just bought a second (dead) Empulse and plan to rebuild both with new batteries, BMS, fast charging capability (and convert to quadrocopters )
have a total of 12 empulse battery modules on hand to sell or trade - all in working condition - however they are located in hongkong - shipping might be tricky and expensive (possible though - my friend shipped recently)
I also inherited an original Brammo diagnostics Pad - so I can check the batteries with the diagnostics software.
Best wishes and don t cook your bikes
Dietmar
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that's good news Dietmar,
which cells are you going to rebuild with?
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I built a charger using two of the following 54.6V chargers connected in series. The doubled voltage generated was enough to charge all 7 modules at the same time. Connected to the Negative terminal under the seat and Positive terminal next to the motor controller/contactor. An Electrical Genius on the Forum, suggested this to me and it worked in my case.
Safest 54.6V 2A Charger Lithium Ion Battery For Electric Scooter Bicycle E-bike (EBAY)
CyberG
Where did you connect this charger you made? Is the terminal under the orange battery terminal cover? Where is the motor controller?
How
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Find the 2013-2014 Service Manual. (BRAMMO-EMPULSE_service-manual)
The manual might be helpful under remove controller or whatever it says. Don't try to charge individual modules you will only cause cell imbalance and get error codes. Those error codes you have are related to the BMS. The codes are in you owners manual. You have to charge the whole pack together just like the onboard charger does.
Take off the front plastic cover and disconnect the big blue connector to disable the battery for safety. Take off the bottom cover and you will see the controller but it blocks access to the positive terminal so you have to drop it down. Look at how it is attached and remove any screws that are holding it to the bike. Don't disconnect any wires or cooling hoses. You just need to get it low enough to get the top plastic cover off so you can hook you chargers up. Service Manual 90-5 (Picture 11 With Red arrow)
The battery modules are arranged so the most negative terminal is towards the back of the bike on the upper row, probably the one you charged. (Service Manual 20-1 Battery #1)
The most positive terminal will be on the rearmost module in the lower row. The big blue disconnect just hooks them together. The positive battery cable might connect to a flat metal bar. You should be able to see the positive battery cable going up to the rearmost lower battery module. Plug the blue disconnect together and avoid touching any connection. Check the voltage between the negative terminal under the seat and the battery side of the contactor.
Your charger, plug them in and check them with your volt meter to confirm proper polarity. If you hook them up backwards you will fry the chargers.
Hook the negative of you chargers to the negative pack terminal and the positive to the battery side of the contactor and plug it in. The lights on the chargers should be red to tell you that they are charging. When the voltage gets to 100 try turning on the bike.
CyberG