Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: #47 (formerly 9 of 30) on March 03, 2013, 11:19:23 AM
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When I got my Empulse R, it came with a ChargePoint card and instructions on how to activate it. Got the phone app too. Problem is that ChargePoint has few charging stations in Southern California. so I looked up the Blink Network - many more charging stations available and a phone app also. Basic setup charges you only $1.50 an hour - no fees.
So my point is to have more choices for charging options. There may be others out there. Check to see what is available in your area so you don't have a limited area to ride in.
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Blink plus only charges $1.00 an hour and is free through 2013.
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In addition to ChargePoint, you can look up stations with PlugShare and download their app for your smartphone. It's useful to map out all the known charging stations in your area (user-submitted data, along with reviews): http://www.plugshare.com (http://www.plugshare.com)
While I carry a ChargePoint card since Northern California is pretty well served (and many city stations are free), PlugShare is great for locating lots of other options.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/3502yxi.jpg)
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Blink and Charge point are sharing info now so you should be able to use both at some point.
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This brings up a general question that I have been thinking about. Last week, when I went for a ride with Shinysideup and we stopped at Alice's Restaurant to recharge while having lunch, we both needed their two available 120V wall outlets, one located behind the gas station and the other located behind a fence next to the realty office. Since then two other electric motorcycle riders have mentioned getting together and going for a ride some day (flar and a Zero rider named Matt). Which brings up a potential problem - getting four of us together would make too many electric motorcycles and not enough power outlets should we all want to charge up and continue our ride. Someone is going to get shorted, perhaps not be able to ride further and potentially have range-anxiety all the way home.
I can see this problem becoming more and more of an issue. Expecting a business to revamp their electrical system and install more 120V or 240V outlets capable of dealing with ever increasing EV power demands doesn't seem to be too promising, given the relatively small amount of additional customers (who previously might have been there on their IC vehicles, in any case) that would attract and the low profit margin of a small business, such as a restaurant.
Even if Alice's (as an example) installed a couple of Level 2 chargers (as may happen some day), those wouldn't go very far with all of the Leafs, Teslas and other electric cars popping up in the area - along with the occasional electric motorcycle. Until some system of very fast charging becomes available and some way for businesses to be able offer these facilities, I don't see things improving in the near future - just getting worse. (I might add that the gas station attendant at the Restaurant really doesn't look all that happy when we plug into the nearby outlets.)
So is there any solution to this potential problem? Is it going to be "first come, first serve" and if you arrive late, you will be out of luck and electrons? I don't have a solution, especially if your bike will take several hours of charging to receive a useful charge. What will we do? :-\
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When I'm going on a long ride and know I will need some charge I always call ahead to make sure I can use their outlet...Then I strap a "roll up" extension cord to the back of the bike...
this is because I never know if the outlet will be close to parking or not...and it has 4 outlets, so others could also charge...or the business can still have access to outlets.
the thing is every place has tons of outlets...you just might have to run the cord out a back door or window :)
I have found business to be extremely helpful...but that is now with electric vehicles being rare. in the future they might not let me run a cord out the window like they will now...but in the future I imagine there will be plugs everywhere...
Gavin
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gWDK0ZzVL._SL500_SS500_.jpg)
about 20 bucks...easy to throw in a backpack or strap onto the bike...25 feet lets me find outlets and park normally (though one restaurant had me park in their storage room to charge). No fast charging, but I can sit and eat a buffalo burger and get another 10-20 miles...
http://www.amazon.com/Woods-2801-Power-Caddy-Extension/dp/B000GAS3A8 (http://www.amazon.com/Woods-2801-Power-Caddy-Extension/dp/B000GAS3A8)
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This brings up a general question that I have been thinking about.
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So is there any solution to this potential problem? Is it going to be "first come, first serve" and if you arrive late, you will be out of luck and electrons? I don't have a solution, especially if your bike will take several hours of charging to receive a useful charge. What will we do? :-\
Great thoughts. I know it's getting a little Lord of the Flies in my office. We have 5 level 2 charging stations. We have 12 parking spots in front of those charging stations. We have 13 Leaves. That's 14 users trying to get into 12 spots queueing up for 5 chargers.
We need more stations, but we know things are going to get complicated as soon as we ask for funding. We've got a good thing going right now, as the charging is free. So it's in our best interests to all get along.
We enacted three simple rules:
- If you need a charge, park in an empty spot with your charging door open.
- When a car completes, the owner should go out, unplug his car, and plug up the nearest car to that station with the charging door open. Then he moves his car.
- If anyone else notices that a car is finished, then he can unplug that car, close its charging door(s), and plug up the nearest car.
It's been working well, but every now and then greed kicks in.
- Case 1: Driver pulls up, notices a car is finished, plugs his car up instead of another nearyby car that has been queued up with the charger door open.
- Case 2: Driver queues up his car early in the day to charge even though it only needs to be "topped off". Sure it relieves their range anxiety, but what about the guy with the anxiety from a 10% SoC that needs to get home?
- Case 3: Some drivers are only charging at work instead of home because it's free at work.
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In South San Francisco, there is a new public parking garage that has two Level 2 charging stations that are (or at least were the last time I looked) free. They have a 24-hour parking limit, so you can park there for all day and night without having to move your car. The last time I looked, there was a Leaf and a Volt charging up and they looked like they had been there a long time. I think the local workers with EVs park there all day, which is fine, except that anyone going there to do business in the downtown area will not be able to use those charging stations - and that was why they were installed, to attract well-off shoppers. I think when the city installed those stations they were really thinking about a "feel good" story in the newspaper and not how the stations would be used or how to regulate their use.
I think it is going to be a while before this charging infrastructure issue shakes-out. One thing I am pretty sure of is that no one really wants to enforce any EV charging or parking in-front-of- station regulations at this time.
When I use a 120V outlet what I worry about is blowing a circuit breaker and having the business start thinking about me overloading their electrical grid and maybe reconsidering letting EV owners use their outlets to charge up , even if they are patrons.
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We have a similar issue at work. We have 3 or 4 charging stations in several places but they were all installed in the 90s and are all some form of inductive paddle so we all crowd around the 2 110v outlets in each location (only 1 of the 3 or 4 charging stations in each area has 110 outlets so there is one outlet pair per charging area). There are similar rules about leaving your charger plugged in with the cord near the outlet if you want to be plugged in and everyone has to learn every charging protocol to know if everyone's cars are done charging. Similar issues with "How dare you imply that I shouldn't get to plug in my Prius and deny me my free electrons just because you need a charge to get home" attitudes - you'd think the community could get along better.
We've been asking for newer L2 chargers for a couple of years, but the requests are lost in bureaucracy. Meanwhile the 110 outlets trip a breaker every week or so because the current they support can only marginally support 2 cars charging at once. :(
Networks like Chargepoint can help. I haven't been able to find specifics, but their "station owner" documents imply that they can install stations at no cost to the business. I put a suggestion in for them to install a station at Alice's, but have no idea what happens with those suggestions...
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https://na.chargepoint.com/cpn_request_stations
Takes about two minutes to request a station.
Alice's address is:
17288 Skyline Blvd Woodside, CA 94062
Everybody sing along: You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant... even electrons.
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Meanwhile, the DOE maps shows these Level 2 stations near Alice's:
McDonald's
2905 Grove Way
Castro Valley, CA 94546
Phone: 888-998-2546
Historic Schoolhouse at Portola Valley Town Center
765 Portola Rd
Portola Valley, CA 94028
Phone: 888-758-4389
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That's pretty funny. Plugshare must have a bad set of coordinates, it shows the McDonalds station right off of Tunitas Creek. Did you grab a Shamrock Shake on your ride last weekend? ;) If you plot the address, btw, that's in Hayward. Not sure you could get there from Alice's on half a charge. It must be wrong in the DOE database as well.
The Portola stations are nice emergency backups, but I'd rather stay up on skyline and charge.
To that end, I just noticed a brand new station listed in Plugshare that I haven't seen before. It's at 4 Linwood Way which is the road just behind Alice's, it sort of cuts off the corner from Skyline behind a couple of houses and the fire station and Alice's to La Honda Rd. It has an L1 on the outside of the fence which looks like a J1772 plug in the picture, and it says "If you need L2, just give me a call". I would expect this to be a "residential charger", but it is listed with the icon for a "public station".
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The google street view picture of the same fence (link (http://goo.gl/maps/7S4Bq)) does not show the charger cord hanging there, so it is newer than the last time the google street patrol drove by. If you spin the view around to the other side of the road you see the back of the fire station parking lot.
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On a related topic, I just want to say thank you to Brammo for putting a level 2 charger on the Empulse. Realistically, there was no way to go on a recreational ride with the Enertia. And even with the Enertia Plus' range, that's still not much of a recreational ride if you want to make a stop to eat and charge. At level 1, your charge time during your stop could be longer than the saddle time for the ride.
With the Empulse's range and level 2 charging I can string together a pretty long ride with a reasonable 1-1.5 hour stop for lunch and a charge. Heck, even multiple 30 minute stops makes a significant increase in range.
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Three use cases for charging IMO.
Overnight charging. 5-10 miles per hour. Bikes can get away with 110V. For most people, cars need 15A J1772. Also useful for charging at work. Every stock Zero bike falls into this category.
Activity charging. 20-40 miles per hour. 15A J1772 for bikes, 30+A J1772 for cars. Able to pick up significant charge while out and about doing activities, such as sit down meals and movies. Brammo and the 30A J1772 cars (Focus EV, 2013 Leaf, Coda Sedan) fall into the lower end of this category.
Travel charging. Ideally 200+ miles per hour. Pretty much requires CHAdeMO, J1772 DC, Tesla Supercharger, or similar high powered offboard charging. 2013 Zero S ZF11.4 is around 100 miles/hour - a good step, but I'd like to see double the charge rate. Nissan Leaf is around 120 miles/hour with CHAdeMO. Tesla Model S 85 is around 250-300 miles/hour.
Categories aren't absolute. Terry @ offthegrid traveled across the majority of the US using ~70 mile/hour charging. I think he's up to around 120 mile/hour charging now, though it requires connecting to two J1772 EVSE. But he's also more tolerant of planning a trip with the expectation of significant charge time.
I think Brammo could offer an Empulse with two onboard chargers with a bit of repackaging. I don't think it would be enough IMO to bump it into the next "class" of charging - 20 miles/hour up to 40 miles/hour is a nice improvement but it's not going to enable you to really travel cross-country. So perhaps the packaging compromise was not deemed worthwhile .. for the majority of owners.
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I think Brammo could offer an Empulse with two onboard chargers with a bit of repackaging. I don't think it would be enough IMO to bump it into the next "class" of charging - 20 miles/hour up to 40 miles/hour is a nice improvement but it's not going to enable you to really travel cross-country. So perhaps the packaging compromise was not deemed worthwhile .. for the majority of owners.
Are you referring to adding another charger at the same wattage? It already gets over 30MPH on 12A L2 charging with just the first onboard charger. Doubling that would get you over 60. Nice, but I'd rather see a CHAdeMO option instead.
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I think Brammo could offer an Empulse with two onboard chargers with a bit of repackaging. I don't think it would be enough IMO to bump it into the next "class" of charging - 20 miles/hour up to 40 miles/hour is a nice improvement but it's not going to enable you to really travel cross-country. So perhaps the packaging compromise was not deemed worthwhile .. for the majority of owners.
Are you referring to adding another charger at the same wattage? It already gets over 30MPH on 12A L2 charging with just the first onboard charger. Doubling that would get you over 60. Nice, but I'd rather see a CHAdeMO option instead.
CHAdeMO is a great system - but Zero wants something like $1800 for the plug and whatever else you need to hook it up to the bike. You really have to want fast charging at that price. I'll stick with Level 1 or Level 2 (if I could use it) for now. Maybe the price will drop in the future.
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CHAdeMO is a great system - but Zero wants something like $1800 for the plug and whatever else you need to hook it up to the bike. You really have to want fast charging at that price. I'll stick with Level 1 or Level 2 (if I could use it) for now. Maybe the price will drop in the future.
That's very true - not for the faint of heart. I'm hoping the cost will come down over time.
But adding a second charger would add a lot more weight for only double the charge rate. Adding CHAdeMO could bump it up quite a bit more for not much weight. CHAdeMO gets into the realm of game changing, a second charger just eases the wait a bit...
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~9lbs for an extra 3kw of charging though (Eltek powercharger 3000)..... cutting your charge time at L2 in half. We have ~10kwh, right? That'd fully charge me in an hour and a half-ish.... that's awesome. I wouldn't mind carrying around an extra 10lbs.... but it's likely that if they made a 6kw charger, it would weigh less than two 3kw chargers.
6kw of onboard charging is nothing to sneeze at.
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What a great thread. First I'd like to point out that there are so many EVs on the road that charging is becoming a concern. That's freakin' awesome! Secondly, I when I read Richard's post I immediately thought of Chargepoint or Blink. If there are so many vehicles wanting/needing charging, that's not a problem, that's a money making opportunity. Throw a couple of Level 2 chargers in there via Chargepoint/blink/whoever and track use. If there is enough traffic a CHAdeMO/J1772 DC combo station would be a great addition. Putting this stuff in and keeping them up can't cost anywhere as much as installing and maintaining a gasoline station. If they jump on it early it's extra business.
As far as Brammo and a second charger, I am pretty sure protomech meant a DC fast charge plug which would not require another charger, just room for a plug and wiring. I believe in both of my interviews with Brian ( http://esbk.co/2012/01/24/ttxgpod-episode-4-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo-full/ (http://esbk.co/2012/01/24/ttxgpod-episode-4-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo-full/) and http://esbk.co/2013/01/24/esbk-studios-episode-16-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo/ (http://esbk.co/2013/01/24/esbk-studios-episode-16-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo/) ) he has talked about they are looking very hard at the J1772 combo socket. I'd like a combo plug (@2C charge rate) with a 9 - 10kW on board charger, if we are going to fantasy land. ;)
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This is WAY over my technical head, but if we're dreaming of a 6kw or 10kw on-board water-cooled charger, aren't we talking about something, for a motorcycle, that's BIG?
Here's a photo of the the 6 kw charger for the 2013 Nissan Leaf:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235 (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235)
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That's pretty funny. Plugshare must have a bad set of coordinates, it shows the McDonalds station right off of Tunitas Creek. Did you grab a Shamrock Shake on your ride last weekend? ;) If you plot the address, btw, that's in Hayward. Not sure you could get there from Alice's on half a charge. It must be wrong in the DOE database as well.
Thanks, flar, I THOUGH a McD's on Tunitas Creek Rd. would be odd! I've submitted an error ticket to Plugshare.
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I'm thinking combined miles or 55 mph constant miles btw for the mileage charge rates, not city riding. Arbitrary, yes. Empulse is 77 combined miles / 3.5 hours = 22 mph stock. Give or take.
Stock Empulse uses a single Eltek 3500 charger. I was thinking about two 3500 chargers in parallel. Should be able to max out 30A J1772.
http://www.eltek.com/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155394&cat=24672&k1=&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1 (http://www.eltek.com/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155394&cat=24672&k1=&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1)
The Eltek 3500 chargers are amazingly small. Less than half the size of a shoebox each. They're liquid-cooled, plumbing perhaps could be a problem.. but the Empulse radiator should be able to easily handle the heat from two chargers.
Want more? How about a 15 kW (150A) charger that fits in a 10" x 10" x 8" enclosure? Open-source design, J1772 / CHAdeMO compatible? Charge the Empulse in about 45 minutes.. assuming the batteries can tolerate it. You'd need a 70A J1772 EVSE (rare) or two 32A J1772 plugs..
http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl (http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl)
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This is WAY over my technical head, but if we're dreaming of a 6kw or 10kw on-board water-cooled charger, aren't we talking about something, for a motorcycle, that's BIG?
Here's a photo of the the 6 kw charger for the 2013 Nissan Leaf:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235 (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235)
Isn't that a 6kw AC charger? Would DC need a big charger like that? I thought that the reason the AC chargers were bulky was the AC->DC conversion, but it's not my area of expertise.
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In the forum thread the Leaf 6 kW charger there is listed as a third party charger. I don't think that's the same as the 6.6 kW charger the 2013 SL and SV Leafs will use.
Yeah, the only thing offboard DC charging requires is a box that talks the protocol used by the charger (CHAdeMO/J1772 DC/Tesla). AC chargers convert AC->DC and limit voltage or current per whatever charging program is selected.
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So what is required to set-up a CHAdeMO charging facility in the way of infrastructure and cost? It seems to me that you would need some sort of transformer to change AC to DC and some industrial-type power lines connected to the facility, along with a dedicated power meter. Utilities tend to charge a lot for new lines and services. The cost of the installation is likely to be pretty high and unless it is subsidized by an auto manufacturer, power company, or a government agency the cost could be more than any small business would want to invest, given the lack of any near future profits generated by the facilities.
Another problem is continuing maintenance. If the facility is not at a location that is constantly "maned", it will be subject to vandalism and may fall into disrepair, which might not be noticed until someone gets there that really needs the power. This was the problem that Bike magazine had when they tested the Zero S. About half of the Level 2 charging stations that they visited were broken and/or not functioning and the nearby business that owned the charger had no idea what to do about it.
I still think the logical location for charging stations is at existing gas stations, but my limited experience with gas station attendants when asking them what they think about EV's is that they see them as one more threat of a continuing trend toward drying up gas sales and don't see (or want to see) any future for them in supplying power to EV's instead of gas-powered autos. What they are missing out on is that it takes longer to charge up an EV and therefore the EV customer will spend more time in their Quick-Stop store buying chips and beer. And that is where they are really making money. ::)
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Another problem is continuing maintenance. If the facility is not at a location that is constantly "maned", it will be subject to vandalism and may fall into disrepair, which might not be noticed until someone gets there that really needs the power. This was the problem that Bike magazine had when they tested the Zero S. About half of the Level 2 charging stations that they visited were broken and/or not functioning and the nearby business that owned the charger had no idea what to do about it.
That's definitely a real concern. Our charging stations in the office have issues every now and then, but we have a strong enough demand that our facilities manager finds out very quickly. However, as I've been exploring my area looking for charging stations, I've found a lot of really remote and un-monitored stations. One thing I really like about ChargePoint's approach (and possibly others), is that stations are networked and monitored by ChargePoint. At an installation, at least one has a wireless modem and then other stations in the group connect to the main "proxy" station via zigbee.
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Protomech,
It looks like the charger in mine, and from here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1760.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1760.0) and here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1802.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1802.0) is a Powercharger 3000, not the 3500.
http://www.eltek.com/us/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155391&cat=&k1=25508&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1 (http://www.eltek.com/us/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155391&cat=&k1=25508&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1)
And mine has a fan and heatsink underneath. I'll try and take some more pics this weekend. I want to take the panels off and take some good pictures of everything.
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A CHAdeMO or any other DC fast charging station is expensive ($10,000 at a bare minimum I believe), but everything is self contained, such as the inverters, etc. As far as Industrial power you do need at least 480v. But I was thinking about this. The new J1772 standard has 2 levels of DC charging, DC1 is up to 40kW and DC2 is up to 100kW (http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/chargingtable10-3-2012.pdf (http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/chargingtable10-3-2012.pdf)). I was thinking specifically of Alice's Restaurant. The smaller 40kW charger might be small enough to avoid having any major work by the electric company. But that is guessing. If not one company is selling a less expensive 25kW CHAdeMO charger. But either would be more than enough to fill a Leaf or any elmoto in a timely manner. I would only put one in if the smaller and cheaper Level 2 AC chargers were making money and there was enough traffic to warrant it.
As I have read in this thread there now seems to be enough people on EVs that they are starting to report broken and neglected stations. I think the days of unnoticed charging stations are numbered. As far as CHAdeMO stations, the cost of them is high enough that I do not see then ever being free ($7/hr in Chicago according to Cars.com). That said, it seems even less likely they would be put somewhere unnoticed.
I'm not sold on the charging stations at gas stations. I'm of the shopping mall/movie theater/restaurant theory. The Cracker Barrels here in TN supposedly have CHAdeMO stations at them. They line the interstate from Nashville, to Chattanooga, to Knoxville (well just short) and back to Nashville. I have no idea if they are actually in and working. When I get my 500 running I plan on a road trip to see.
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Good catch on the charger, frodus. If they're air-cooling the charger then it makes more sense that they have only a single charger. Liquid-cooling seems like it'd be the way to go .. especially as the Empulse already has a nice liquid-cooling system. Perhaps the additional coolant tubing would overly complicate layout .. or perhaps hardpoints were chosen before the charger had been finalized.
I've stopped by a Cracker Barrel in TN with a working CHAdeMO charger. Sadly no bike to charge.
There's a CHAdeMO charger in Manchester, TN that I could make from Huntsville with a 2013 Zero S. Stop at Cracker Barrel, eat dinner; then continue to Nashville.