Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse Mods => Topic started by: shayan on October 12, 2016, 05:19:46 PM
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Does anyone know if the Empulse has more than one charging input ports? I just wanted to know if we could integrate the level 1 charger into the bike along with the level 2 charger. That way, we wouldn't have to carry the level 1 adapter all the time and maybe we could charge the bike with both chargers simultaneously.
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Simultaneously won't work, as there's only one 3000W charger onboard. Connecting 2 power sources from potentially different feeds is a recipe for disaster. Use the J1772, or use your proposed mod, not both.
You MAY be able to splice something in, but then you'd have to have a jack for that, and store the cord. Might look into the small L1 chargers that are compact enough to put into a backpack. Something like the TurboCord L1 charger.
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So has no one ever tried upgrading the charger? Level 2 can send upto 6.6kW power as far as i know. So using the same level 2 stations and a faster charger wont we be able to cut the time in half? I am still new to all the electrical/electronic aspect of things. So forgive my ignorance :)
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It would require a high level knowledge of CAN in order to speak/reply to the VCU (like an ECU in a gas vehicle). The protocol for the Eltek Valere powercharger 3000 is fairly documented, but would the batteries stand being charged at 2x the speed? Is there a shunt inside the Brammo that would cause a fault if you did try to charge them at a higher current? How do you reverse engineer it?
It's a lot more than just connecting the charger to the B+ and B- and letting her rip. There's a lot of "communication" going on between all of the modules. You have the VCU, Display, Charger, Motor controller, Battery Management System Main unit (which connects to each of the 7 battery packs board) as well as an IO module that controls lights, signals, etc.
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I would love it if someone did the leg work on all this. Also I'd love it if someone could figure out how more cells could be added (sattle bags maybe).
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Right it is not an easy task. The main concern would be the possibility of some sort of a barrier inside one of the components (VCU or the BMS most likely), which would prevent the battery from receiving more power despite that being safe. It maybe there for additional safety or to prevent anyone from customizing the battery/charging components. Nevertheless, its worth a try.
I see some older posts where Athlon has tried to install an additional 3kW battery pack and an additional charger and vtbrammorider has changed some torque and regen settings using a CAN interface.
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Both of them have some CAN knowledge, and the proper software, to make those changes. I don't know what Athlon had to do to have a larger charger, so maybe he'd know better. I completely forgot about that.
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Not sure how far Athlon went with the mod, but some sneak peek into the results would've been great
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Bumping this thread back up.
I posted on http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6781.180 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6781.180)
asking evtricity if any Empulse users had used the charger that he had and his response was:
Hi shayan,
We have sold a double charger to allow a Brammo owner to charge two Brammos simultaneously in conjunction with the existing J1772 onboard charger (so ~7kW DC each bike). However they have had to do the integration themselves to to connect into the Brammo as we don't offer a DC fast charge cable that supports that with stock Brammos as we do with Zeros.
I can get in touch with them if you like and see how they have progressed in configuring that setup.
Not sure who the Brammo owner was and evtricity mentioned that he would follow up with that person on details of how he integrated the charger.
If this can work and not too complicated, i guess this is a possibility.
I also checked with HollywoodElectrics on the diginow supercharger and head back that they did install the charger on an Empulse but was short on details. Though the 6.6kW diginow is much more expensive than the one that evtricity is selling for.
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Cool it would be great to up the charging rate of the Empulse. I was chatting with a family that was charging their Fiat 500e and went up to see if the 500 made any noise charging and I noticed the charging station buzzing unlike the charging station hooked up to my bike. It was charging at the full 6kw and I was like hmm that's almost triple what the Empulse is charging at. If you could triple the charging rate its like the Empulse has a fast charger.
I rode an Energica Eva recently and was talking with the service manager and told him about my story about the Fiat 500e and he said that the charger in the Fiat 500e is probably weighs like 200lbs so its not feasible to put one of those on a motorcycle. O_o' guess we'll have to wait for the technology to get smaller some how. I do know the Energica charges at 3kw though so its got a little beefier charger than the Empulse does and of course it has the Level 3 DC fast charge option. 20kw!
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The Empulse charger is around 3 KW input. When you look at the charging status on the speedometer, you are looking at the DC power going into the pack. This includes all the charger losses and power being used to run accessories like the DC-DC converter. Higher capacity chargers aren't all that much larger but would be hard to get in a motorcycle. The old Tesla Model S had a light weight 10 KW charger that sat under the rear seat cushion---a little too wide for the location in the Empulse, but would have fit in a saddlebag :) .
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Cool it would be great to up the charging rate of the Empulse. I was chatting with a family that was charging their Fiat 500e and went up to see if the 500 made any noise charging and I noticed the charging station buzzing unlike the charging station hooked up to my bike. It was charging at the full 6kw and I was like hmm that's almost triple what the Empulse is charging at. If you could triple the charging rate its like the Empulse has a fast charger.
I rode an Energica Eva recently and was talking with the service manager and told him about my story about the Fiat 500e and he said that the charger in the Fiat 500e is probably weighs like 200lbs so its not feasible to put one of those on a motorcycle. O_o' guess we'll have to wait for the technology to get smaller some how. I do know the Energica charges at 3kw though so its got a little beefier charger than the Empulse does and of course it has the Level 3 DC fast charge option. 20kw!
Well, just in case u missed looking at the spec for the double charger (7kW) that's mentioned in that thread:
Double charger:
Two chargers in one case with separate AC input and DC output
Standard AC input socket = 2 x IEC C20
Standard AC current = 2 x 15A
AC input voltage = 85-300V
Standard DC output = 6.6kW - 30A @ 220v
Maximum DC output = 8kW (on request)
Dimensions = 29cm x 18cm x 10cm
Weight = 6kg
Charging time from empty with onboard (useable 10kWh capacity) = <1.5 hours
Double DC fast charger cable included
BYO 2 x IEC C19 15A+ cable for your country
This thing weighs only like 6 kgs. So 200lbs for the fiat 500e might be an exaggeration! And i do agree with you that DC fast charging is the way to go. If hollywood electrics gets enough requests then maybe we can ask them to make a supercharger v2 kit thats compatible with the empulse ;)
The Empulse charger is around 3 KW input. When you look at the charging status on the speedometer, you are looking at the DC power going into the pack. This includes all the charger losses and power being used to run accessories like the DC-DC converter. Higher capacity chargers aren't all that much larger but would be hard to get in a motorcycle. The old Tesla Model S had a light weight 10 KW charger that sat under the rear seat cushion---a little too wide for the location in the Empulse, but would have fit in a saddlebag :) .
Right exactly what i was getting to :)
Also most of these modified zero's with superchargers carry the chargers in a saddlebag or a bag on the rearseat. Another reason for that is that the chargers need to be put in a weather proof and a dust proof container.
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I am on the (slow) way on adding a fast charger to my Empulse R. The thing I need to figure out know is where to hook a Anderson connector to have access to B+ and B-. If you know it, let me know !
I will do it with harvested servers PSU : 1000w 12v , I already have 5 of them and still need to find 4 others. The voltage can be adjusted to 13V (13V x 9 = 117V) and I found a circuit on Endless Sphere to regulate the current. I will first test my diy charger with 2 PSU and LiPo cells to be sure that the current regulator is working well. If it works and if I find 4 other PSU I will test it first with around 1000w in conjunction with the onboard charger and progressively go up to 6000w for 1C charging.
My final goal is to embed this charger in a too case along with 6kw of LiPo.
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Cool good luck.
So how does the Empulse charge the battery? To my understanding it does a bulk charge when the SOC is low and it as a whole pack. Then when it fully charged it enters a balance mode and starts balancing the cells? Kinda like how a lipo charger works?
So to implement a DC fastcharger (off board charging) you would need to find a way to program the BMS to bypass the onboard charger and charge from the charging station directly? Does the charging station regulate the voltage or does the BMS do it? Sorry I'm kind of a noob to EV stuff I'm a 12V guy =P
Would anything be needed to be added to the bike to dc fastcharge at say a charging station? Obviously a CCS or Chademo connector. I was looking at the Energica website and it says the fast charger is a $1700 option for the bike. What could need to be added to the bike for it to cost $1700?
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I am not going for DC fast charging (yet). Chademo is a complicated proprietary protocol and Combo CCS is not common yet. My goal is to charge on 22kw and 43kw type 2 chargers. They provide 3 phases of AC at 250V.
The battery is charging in three phases. First phase is the constant current phase. The charger is trying to put 117V but the battery is, let say, 95V so 23V of differences are going in the battery and the internal resistance of the battery determine how much current can go in (Ohm's law). It is generally to much current for the charger and the battery, this is why the charger has to limit the current.
After a while the voltage difference decreases and the current needs decreases also. This is the constant voltage phase where the battery is slowly reaching 100% SOC.
The last phase is the balancing phase. The BMS discharge the the highest cells into the lowest cells to balance them at an est SOC. I guess that phase 2 and 3 are going simultaneously.
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I'd be careful with "quick charging" and Li-Ion batteries. They don't self balance or equalize like a lead acid or NiMH battery. In traditional batteries, the internal resistance is highest in the lowest voltage cells. When in a series string, as they charge, the resistance drops and self equalizes the string. Ii-Ion batteries work in the reverse. The lowest voltage cell in the string receives the least of the charging power (charge current is constant in a series string but the highest resistance cell has the highest voltage therefore receiving the most power input and heating). This causes higher charged cell to exceed its maximum voltage and destroy itself. They need a balancing circuit to equalize the cells and make sure that no cell exceeds a specific voltage (usually around 4.2 volts per cell). If you do, the excess charging current goes into the overvoltage cell which will quickly heat and destroy itself and possibly ignite the entire pack. If you are supplying power with an external charger that doesn't allow the BMS to initialize the balancing phase, you run this risk.
To be safe, never use a quick charger to go to more than around 80% charge--this should keep an unbalanced cell pair still below the 4.2 volt threshold. Finish the charge with the bikes internal charger and let the balancer do its job which occurs at the very end of the charge cycle with reduced current from the charger. The balancers are basically resistors that are placed across the highest voltage cells by the BMS and shunt the charge current to the lower voltage cells. These resistors cannot dissipate much heat so charging current is usually reduced to less than one amp during balancing---which is why the charger may appear to stay on for a long time at 100% charge if there are cells that are far out of balance. It is also why the bike must be charged from time to time to full charge so that balancing can take place.
It can be done, just play it safe with quick charging. A pack doesn't go out of balance quickly unless there is a faulty cell pair (or in our case a faulty cell in one of the ten that are paralleled). Just bring up the balancing screen on the instrument cluster when using the bikes internal charger to finish the charge and be aware of any segment that appears to be constantly the "low" group. One last point and that is about the bike being aware that external charging is taking place. In EV cars that I have hooked an external charger to, the only way the battery management system knows that a charge is taking place is if it is on. In addition, it needs to think that the power is actually being regenerated from the drive system so that it can look at the amount of power you are adding to the battery for range and percent of charge calculations. In the cars, if the external charge source was between the drive inverter and the battery pack, with the vehicle in the run position, the BMS would just think you were coasting down Pike's peak and regenerating the power--not using an external source. I don't know how the system would react with the Brammo components as I haven't looked at the wiring diagrams to see where the best connection point would be.
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I am aware of the unbalancing problems and safety concerns. In any case I would not charge the bike without the BMS being in function. I will either hook the "fast charger" in parallel of the onboard charger but I still need to fully understand the consequences on the onboard charger. The other possibility is to "fake" regen but it means that the bike needs to be powered on while charging.
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Be aware that some vehicles monitor the amount of input power going into the pack. If it exceeds the nominal output of the onboard charger, it thinks something is wrong and shuts the onboard charger down. Case in point was a Mitsubishi I-Miev with a 3.3 KW onboard charger. I paralleled a 11 KW variable output charger (Manzanita Micro PFC-50B) with the onboard charger. As soon as the output reached a combined 6 KW, the onboard charger shut down. No big deal but needed to forget the onboard and supply all power with the offboard charger until final charge.
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That is interesting to know. Did the onboard charger powered up by itself when the power was under 6kw again or did you have to reset the car?
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In the case of the I-MiEV, it was just a power cycle to get everything back to normal. I have no clue how the Empulse will respond, however, the simple workaround is to charge with the external charger and the Empulse in the "run" mode. Power up your external charger and if you can vary its output, ramp up the output while watching your KW meter on the instrument panel. If it starts going negative its showing the bike's systems think you are in regen. Keep the power on until you reach 80% capacity then shut off the charger. Connect the onboard charger and after the charge starts, look at the balance screens and see where your highest cell pair is. This will determine to what extent you can safely charge with your external charger. Also remember that if you are putting a lot of power into the pack, you can exceed the 4.2 volt limit with the charger on. Be sure you never are near the maximum system voltage under charge.
I am going to put a Anderson connector on the bike at some time and hit it with the PFC-50. Its 11KW output is still only 1C so it shouldn't stress the pack in any way. I just don't want to do anything to damage the bike as I know it won't be repaired and I still like to drive it 8) !
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Charging the Empulse in the run mode seems to be the easiest and safest way to do it. I know that we can regen to at least 5kw so it should be no problem to charge at this rate in run mode. Moreover the balance screen is available in run mode so I can verify that no cell is going over 4.2V. When the input power decrease to 3000W I can switch to the internal charger. This option is almost guarantee to work but is not the most convenient. First because of the need to stay near the bike at the first phase of the charge. Second because of the need to switch the charger.
If you fit an Anderson connector, please, make pictures ! I am in the same situation than you, I would really like to improve my bike in order to make road trips with my friends but I don't want to damage anything as it is my daily commute vehicle !
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In the case of the I-MiEV, it was just a power cycle to get everything back to normal. I have no clue how the Empulse will respond, however, the simple workaround is to charge with the external charger and the Empulse in the "run" mode. Power up your external charger and if you can vary its output, ramp up the output while watching your KW meter on the instrument panel. If it starts going negative its showing the bike's systems think you are in regen. Keep the power on until you reach 80% capacity then shut off the charger. Connect the onboard charger and after the charge starts, look at the balance screens and see where your highest cell pair is. This will determine to what extent you can safely charge with your external charger. Also remember that if you are putting a lot of power into the pack, you can exceed the 4.2 volt limit with the charger on. Be sure you never are near the maximum system voltage under charge.
I am going to put a Anderson connector on the bike at some time and hit it with the PFC-50. Its 11KW output is still only 1C so it shouldn't stress the pack in any way. I just don't want to do anything to damage the bike as I know it won't be repaired and I still like to drive it 8) !
Faking regen is certainly a safe "hack"! And How do you connect the external charger to fake the regen? As in where would the output of the external charger be connected to? Sorry for the "obvious" questions but i'm new to completely understanding battery charger systems :)
And yes, pictures please!
Also will u use the full 1C (11kW) power of the charger or are you planning to attempt to start to experiment at around 5kW and slowly bring it upto 1C?
Charging at 1C from 0-80% would take around 45 mins and then about another 45 mins from there to 100% with the onboard charger. So that would be ~1.5 hrs. For longer trips we can do away with balancing the cells for every charge!
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I think the bast place to hook an additional connector would be on batteries. Referring to the service manual
GND DC VCC DC should be on battery #7 (just above motor controller) and the VCC DC GND DC should be on battery #4 (closest to handlebar) battery #1 (closest to the seat). Another potential spot would be on the motor controller but keeping everything waterproof here does not look as easy.
The service manual is full of pictures : http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=Empulse_Service_Manual (http://www.brammoforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=Empulse_Service_Manual)
It is a nice source of information before tearing apart your whole bike :)
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When I do this mod (and not quite ready yet) the connection will be to the battery indirectly. The most logical place would be to the battery terminals themselves. However, the positive terminal (located on the upper rear of the top module) is almost impossible to get to without either removing the module or taking a lot of components off the tail of the bike to gain access. The negative terminal (located on the lower rear of the bottom module) is pretty easy to get to after removing the rear bracket for the motor controller. The place to access the positive side of the battery is the main fuse which is located above the motor controller. The fuse is held in by the studs that connect the fuse to the battery wiring. A simple ring terminal can be used for the connection. Another benefit of connecting at this point is you now have a fuse between your Anderson connector and the main battery pack. Another possibility would be connecting to the main contactor which would shut off power to the Anderson connector when not in the "run" mode. This would be safer from an electrical standpoint but in my case the PFC-50 can be damaged if it is under power and the load it is charging is disconnected. Neither one of these connection points are really "waterproofed" so just common sense when wiring is all that is needed.
Be aware that any time you are messing with the high voltage system, you need to disconnect the service plug before doing anything else. This splits the two modules and prevents any voltage from appearing at the battery terminal at the rear of the modules. The voltages in the high voltage system on the Empulse aren't really high enough to kill you (unless you are standing in a bucket of salt water :o ) but you could get burns if you short something like a cable or tool while working. Again, common sense.
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What Anderson connector do you plan to use ? 175A or 350A ? Do you have a crimp tool big enough for this kind of terminals ?
175A would be more than enough for charging at 11kw but since I am planning to add an external battery also it may be a good idea to be large enough.
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The 175 would be plenty large for the task at hand. My PFC-50B can only put out a max of 75 amps at the lower voltage the Empusle operates at. I will be limited to about 8.5 KW because of that fact. In your case you need to remember that if you parallel an additional pack, you are splitting the current between the packs so each is supplying half of the drive current. In the I-MiEV I paralleled an additional 16 KWH pack with a 175 amp connector with no problems. I would use #4 wire in your application and it should handle the loads just fine. You order the Anderson with the pins for the size wire you are going to use. I have a hydraulic crimp tool that works great with the connectors. If you don't have a crimp tool you can put the pin in a vise and heat it with a torch to melt solder and fill the cavity where the wire goes. When melted, plunge the wire into the connector, keep heating it until the solder wicks into the wire. After the connectors cool, put a bit of shrink tubing over the wire and on to the connector before inserting the pins into the connector body. Sometimes it does a better looking job than the crimp.
BTW--I still have the 88 LEV-50 cells from the I-MiEV. That enough to add 15 KWH of extra capacity to the Empulse and crush the bike from the weight ???
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Would you guys please be kind enough to post details on doing this mod, once you complete doing it? I'm sure it would be of greta help to everyone on this forum who would like to try a fast charger mod :)
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Really very interesting topic, was there any news?
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I know this is an old topic but figured I would add a little to this. I went on a ride from Carmel California down to Mexico and back on electric bikes. One of the bikes with us was a Brammo that had 6.6kw of charging on it. It had no problems with this amount of charging for the entire trip. I'm looking to put 6.6 on my brammo soon so will be able to give a more detailed accounting of it soon.
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Hey nice to see news on this. Didn't had time to work on it those days but hope to do it soon.