Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Dietmar on August 02, 2017, 03:19:38 AM
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Hi Everybody
Empulse R 2013
I have seen this problem on various forums but unable to source any help/info
When I plug in the charger - fan comes on for 2 seconds, display lights up as usual but charge is zero amp
If I leave the charger connected the battery actually discharges.
I have access to the battery diagnostics gear - all modules good, SOC balanced, no faults
Bike starts and runs with no faults.
Any ideas ?
regards
Dietmar
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What is your SOC?
It's possible that one or more of your cells are unbalanced. This disables charging, and will "bleed" the cell energy through the heaters in the battery pack.
Hit menu and select at the same time, for about 3-4 seconds. It will go to an advanced menu. Take a pic and post it.
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Hi Frodus
Many thanks for the (only) reply
All modules are perfectly balanced
SOC 97
I individually charged each module since their SOC was out more than 10% which triggered a B55 fault
Battery diagnosis shows all healthy, no faults
Checked all 3 onboard charger fuses ok
even the hidden fuse on black lead from charger port checked ok
Sorry where to hit Menu and select?
regards
Dietmar
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Hit menu/select on your dash display.
The battery PACKS might be balanced, but internally, are the cells individually balanced? The advanced menu will tell you low cell, high cell, and if they're actively being balanced.
Do this with the charger plugged in.
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Thanks Frodus
I attach pictures
Charger was plugged in for twice about 10 hours
total SOC dropped from 51 to 42 %
but H and L only got slightly closer
started at 0.040 V difference
ended at 0.029 V difference
does this seem normal for such a long time to balance ??
Regards
Dietmar
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You're not balancing. Those Dots across the screen show which cell bank is balancing, and you have none that are actively balancing.
I'd check fuses next, but past that, i'm not sure. Might be that your charger isn't charging.
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Have you tried a different evse? I remember this happened on my Victory Empulse when I was trying to use this plugashare charging station in SF and it powered on but showed 0 amps. I had to activate the charger with my phone then it started charging.
Just a thought try a different evse or charging station.
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Yeah, I had another EVSE and it wouldn't charge. It ended up being the EVSE. Another one worked fine.
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Hi Frodus, I had the exact same problem and my dealer took several month to fix it. He told me that the problem was rusty batteries connectors. He also told me that he replaced them by stainless steel ones but I did not check and I am not sure what/where connectors he was talking about.
Hope you find the problem.
By the way what is the battery diagnostic gear ? Is it a computer software ?
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Yes if it's a computer software, please do share with us how you got this :) I recently found a gentleman on Instagram who is using an Empulse as a stunt bike in Cirque De Soleil performances... and he has pictures of someone with the old service ipad and computer hooked up to his bike pretty recently... so he might be worth reaching out to. I think he's in Europe tho... his username is @cyssko and he even has his email on his profile!
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It's solved?
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Hi to all !
Thanks for your replies.
Not solved but I think I'm closer (to disaster?)
When plugging in the clipper creek PCS-120 (I tried 2 units in different power outlets - pretty sure no issue there) - the dash lights up - fan comes on as normal for 2 seconds - then charge shows 0 amps.
According to the clipper info (on back of unit) - all lights normal - but EV IS NOT REQUESTING CHARGE.
On the power adapter there are the 3 (blue, brown, yellow) AC connectors - plus 1 blue + 1 white much smaller pin (to signal the clipper creek if charge required - or if fault to cut off - signal wires)
So some part of the bike tells the clipper to not send any AC to charger - hence the 0 amps.
Since the bike starts and rides with no faults and battery diagnostics are all good - which part is faulty ?
I talked to 2 ex Brammo dealers - nobody has any idea. Guess they were only trained to replace components after Brammo looked at diagnostics files and recommended part replacements.
The service manual is basically a part replacement manual - not an engineering blueprint or fault finding help.
Any ideas ?
Regards
Dietmar
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I'm still learning about the specific hardware Brammo used, but it is a standard SAE J1772 connector, correct? It sounds to me like this could be an interlock issue. The two small pins on a J1772 connector are designed to disconnect before the high current lines disconnect, to prevent arcing across the high current connection. One of those pins is the interlock, or "proximity detector", which is used to detect when the charge cable is connected. That connection is also broken when you press the release button on the charge cable. IF that connection is not made, no current will flow.
Normally I would think this would throw a code in the Empulse's onboard diagnostics, but I'm not sure if it does, can anyone weigh in?
Since you used 2 different charge cables, it's likely the issue is not in the cable itself. You said you individually charged each module? How did you do this? Have you disassembled/disconnected anything on the bike?
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Two other possibilities, one is slim and the other may take more time to diagnose.
Have you verified the outlets you tested have power? An unpowered charge cable shouldn't cause the bike to power on like it does but maybe that is an oversight.
Secondly, have you read this thread? http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3085.0 (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=3085.0)
It seems there may a known issue of faulty connectors in the onboard charging system. To verify you would either need to go to a service center that can work on that component or disassemble and check it yourself.
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Thanks Lamber !
Great new info!
Checked power on outlets, used 2 different clipper creeks - all same result.
Those 2 small pins - do they send a current for the magnet switch on the clipper creek to engage / disengage ?
Measured the voltage - only about 3.5V DC on them.
Do you think putting AC power straight on the charger port would do any damage ? Can attach via the charging cable so would be no arcing.
Just wondering if the onboard charger thinks for itself as stand alone or needs to be 'directed' by onboard computers (AIM, VCU)
Thanks for all your interest.
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I had the same problem once and solved it by reversing the AC mains plug in the wall outlet. Apparently it is also picky on which side the live wire sits. After that I simply put an indication mark on which way I had to plug into the wall.
Does it charge at a public charge station?
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The two small pins behavior is a little bit more complicated : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Signaling
The 3.5V DC that you are measuring is actually a square wave between -12v and +12v.
Putting AC right on the bike plug will probably not do anything as there is a relay in the bike that cut the circuit through the charger.
I guess that it is the onboard charger itself that tell the EVSE to send AC. If the charger is not giving the order, it will most likely not close the charge relay in the bike and won't charge. :(
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i had the same problem, no more charging. There was a melted connector untherneat the J1772 connector.
It is the outcoming cable from the charger. I have replaced it with some other connectors. Only problem that i now have is that my bike is completly out of power, so the charger won't start.
So if anybody has a solution for that.....
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Hi Brugja and all who have this problem one day
I found a solution - it works but not simple.
Main problem was that the onboard computer (AIM, VCM or whatever thingomagic part) does not want to signal the charger and the clipper creek to charge.
I disconnected the cam wire to the charger (that's the data cable getting the signal from onboar computer)
Got a stand alone software from eltek to run the charger via a small laptop (I use a mini windows pad) with a usb/cam adapter.
AC has to go straight into the charge adapter - via clipper creek won't work since there is no signal again.
Using this setup takes some discipline and external equipment. Also you can only charge at max 10 amps since the cooling fans will not come on - avoiding overheating the charger (could rig yet another DC cable for the fans - but 10 amps will charge happily overnight 8-10 hours)
I am in China - no Brammo / Polaris dealer within thousands of miles - so when my bike died I had no choice - DIY or scrap it. Took long research to get this far but bike is running again with no faults.
Next step will be trying to get the pc part into an arduino (under the seat) with bluetooth to my phone so I can run the charger without the pc connected.
Send me a PM if you like to get more info.
BTW many thanks to Brian Wisman and Adam Lukoic
even though they both left Brammo they put me in touch with other "castaways" and we hacked some bikes.
If you know anyone in the China/Asia region who has a Brammo bike with problems and no support please pass on my contact - we try to establish a network.
Cheers and may the AC/DC force be with you all!
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hello Dietmar,
this might be the solution, where did you get the software?
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to control an Empulse charger ( Eltek Valere ) you can use an Arduino + Canbus shield and this code
( this code is for High voltage Eltek valere , you need to change the voltage packet to something below 112 volts)
This code allow Arduino to control an Eltek charger , ir REQUIRE also a Sparkfun Canbus Shiled.
UP/DOWN joystik chance the voltage up or down by 10V
LEFT/RIGHT joystik change the current up or down by 1Ampere
CLICK enable or disable the charger.
Led D8 is on when charger is enable
Led D7 blinks when any input is registered form the joystik.
On serial monitor (@115200) there are available debug values calculated for the actual canbus packet.
-------------------------------------------BEGIN CODE-------------------------------------------------------------
#include <SPI.h>
#include <Canbus.h>
#include <defaults.h>
#include <global.h>
#include <mcp2515.h>
#include <mcp2515_defs.h>
/* Define Joystick connection */
#define UP A1
#define DOWN A3
#define LEFT A5
#define RIGHT A2
#define CLICK A4
// define pins for feedback leds
#define CONF 7
#define ENAB 8
// intitialize to reasonable value for safety
int volts =150;
int ampere =0;
boolean running = false ;
int VMSD = 0x00; //Voltage Most Significant Digit
int VLSD = 0x00; //Voltage Least Significant Digit
int CMSD = 0x00; //Current Most Significant Digit
int CLSD = 0x00; //Current Least Significant Digit
void setup()
{
//serial and canbus initialization
Serial.begin(115200);
if(Canbus.init(CANSPEED_250))
Serial.println("CAN Init ok");
else
Serial.println("Can't Init CAN");
delay(1000);
pinMode(UP,INPUT);
pinMode(DOWN,INPUT);
pinMode(LEFT,INPUT);
pinMode(RIGHT,INPUT);
pinMode(CLICK,INPUT);
pinMode(ENAB, OUTPUT);
pinMode(CONF, OUTPUT);
}
//here start the main loop , it will run over and over and over
void loop()
{
// using shield joystik to up/down voltage left/right ampere and click for enable running
if (analogRead(CLICK) <= 10) {
running = !running;
digitalWrite(CONF, HIGH);}
if ((analogRead(UP) <= 10)and (volts<= 240)){
volts = volts+10;
digitalWrite(CONF, HIGH);}
if ((analogRead(DOWN) <= 10)and (volts >= 160)){
volts = volts-10;
digitalWrite(CONF, HIGH);}
if ((analogRead(LEFT) <= 10)and (ampere <= 15)){
ampere = ampere+1;
digitalWrite(CONF, HIGH);}
if ((analogRead(RIGHT) <= 10)and (ampere >= 1)){
ampere = ampere-1;
digitalWrite(CONF, HIGH);}
digitalWrite(ENAB, running);
delay(90); // 90 millisecond to allow people to see the CONF led so people can see if the valued changed
digitalWrite(CONF, LOW);
// calculation to eltek protocol
VMSD = (volts*10)/256,HEX;
VLSD = (volts*10)%256,HEX;
CMSD = (ampere*10)/256,HEX;
CLSD = (ampere*10)%256,HEX;
// end calculation to eltek protocol
//can message setup
tCAN message;
message.id = 0x2ff; //formatted in HEX eltek broadcast address for all chargers on the bus
message.header.rtr = 0;
message.header.length = 7; //formatted in DEC
message.data[0] = running,HEX; // charger enable 01
message.data[1] = 0xE8; // power 03E8 = 100,0%
message.data[2] = 0x03;
message.data[3] = VLSD; // volt
message.data[4] = VMSD;
message.data[5] = CLSD; // ampere
message.data[6] = CMSD;
/*
// example packet for 200 volts 2 ampere D0 07 14 00
message.id = 0x2ff; //formatted in HEX
message.header.rtr = 0;
message.header.length = 7; //formatted in DEC
message.data[0] = 0x01; // charger enable 01
message.data[1] = 0xE8; // power 03E8 = 100,0%
message.data[2] = 0x03;
message.data[3] = 0xD0; // volt max 07D0 = 200,0 volts
message.data[4] = 0x07;
message.data[5] = 0x14; // ampere max 0014 = 2,0 Ampere
message.data[6] = 0x00;
*/
//actual canbus packet sending
mcp2515_bit_modify(CANCTRL, (1<<REQOP2)|(1<<REQOP1)|(1<<REQOP0), 0);
mcp2515_send_message(&message);
//debug code reading from actual canbus message to be sure what's going on
//---------running Debug-------------
Serial.print("enable ");
Serial.println(message.data[0]);
//---end running debug--------------
// ------voltage Debug ----------------------------
Serial.print("voltage ");
//Serial.println(message.data[3],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[4],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[4]*256+message.data[3],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[4]*256+message.data[3]);
Serial.println((message.data[4]*256+message.data[3])/10);
// ---end voltage debug ---------------------------
// -----------current Debug ----------------------------
Serial.print("current ");
//Serial.println(message.data[5],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[6],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[6]*256+message.data[5],HEX);
//Serial.println(message.data[6]*256+message.data[5]);
Serial.println((message.data[6]*256+message.data[5])/10);
// ---end voltage debug ---------------------------
delay(100); // wait 100 millisecond before starting the loop again
}
-------------------------------------------------END CODE-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simone
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after the C2 problem I succeeded to fix, I also got the 0 amp loading problem. Checked all the fuses in the fusebox, and a loose one underneath the 1772 connector, all fine, I could meassure the voltage of the onboard loader, looked good, and suddenly it started loading. So I think a loose contact!
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What's your ambient temparature?
if the batteries are too cold it will start heating them first and will show 0 Amps until they are warm enough.
after that the charge should begin.
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the ambient temperature is 6-8 degrees.
Do you know at which temperature the batteries are warm enough?
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above 10 Celcius
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thanks :D , didnt know that!
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it's what makes the Empulse better than the Zeros, it can actualy charge when its cold 8).
so charge before you drive if riding in cold weather
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update
Have been using my homebrew charge setup (via tablet softare and direct power ) for about 5000km now - about 50+ charges
basically works ok - just a bit annoying connecting extra wire and starting software etc
unfortunately bike only charges to 90% now - seems to be not balancing properly - maybe BMS only works via onboard computer being active during charge ?
anyone with similar issue and solution please post
Also I m happy to share software and Canbus adapter setup if anyone has same charging issue - just PM me
Happy riding