Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: FreepZ on April 20, 2012, 09:39:26 AM
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I'm sure that I'm not the only person out there who has generated some excitement by revving up their ICEs to get the "Vroom!" sound.
Since the Empulse has a clutch, we should be able to do that too. Of course there will be some significant differences.
- The electric motor is probably going to spin up very fast.
- Hopefully, the computer will prevent me from damaging the motor if I did that.
- Since I don't expect there to be a neutral gear on the bike, it's pretty risky. Accidentally drop the clutch and the bike is going to shoot off!
- It's probably not going to be the same feeling as revving an ICE, although I do think it will be pretty cool.
Anybody have any thoughts about that?
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I think it is time for a new paradigm regarding generating excitement while sitting on a stationary motorcycle.
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I'm sure that I'm not the only person out there who has generated some excitement by revving up their ICEs to get the "Vroom!" sound.
Since the Empulse has a clutch, we should be able to do that too. Of course there will be some significant differences.
- The electric motor is probably going to spin up very fast.
- Hopefully, the computer will prevent me from damaging the motor if I did that.
- Since I don't expect there to be a neutral gear on the bike, it's pretty risky. Accidentally drop the clutch and the bike is going to shoot off!
- It's probably not going to be the same feeling as revving an ICE, although I do think it will be pretty cool.
Anybody have any thoughts about that?
You may end up looking like a tool doing that. ;) The Empulse sounds cool but revving the electric motor at a stop light will probably get you laughed at... Its just not the same as revving a traditional engine, and thats a good thing.
I say "traditional" because that shit is old school, yo!
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You may end up looking like a tool doing that. ;)
Well, I was thinking this, but decided to use big words to say it more tactfully. :D
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I don't know if the IET will have a neutral gear. There's absolutely no functional reason to include one, but if they want to emulate the gas gearbox closely then they probably will include one. The motor introduces a small amount of drag if you push it while it's in gear, but honestly it's not worth mentioning.
The Zero for sure has some audible motor whine, I would expect the Empulse to also not be absolutely silent at a close distance. Who knows, you may enjoy the quiet motor noise..
I was thinking about that this morning, actually.. the Zero's motor has a fan mounted on the "crank" shaft.. so the fan spins as fast as the motor does. Just finished a run with a friend and would have been nice to get a bit of air flowing while I changed back into motorcycle gear : )
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eh, smoke the rear tire if you want to impress the ICE crowd...
just don't do it too often...tires are expensive...
Gavin
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I think this would be a terrible idea and probably break something. If you rev a brushed dc motor you can generate a plasma ball and f* some stuff up pretty quick. These are not those motors but i can't imagine anything good coming from it. I would assume Brammo's engineers have accounted for this use case an you will be safe though. Either in a throttle request lock out when in neutral or some sort of ramp rate limit.
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I was going to say that the computer might not let you rev with the clutch pulled in in the first place, but they may need to allow it to engage for no other reason than for the occasional need to help the gears engage (most notably if you coast to a stop with the clutch pulled in, then it is hard to downshift without blipping the clutch slightly).
With respect to having a neutral - it might actually cost more to get rid of it as that would require a custom gear set rather than taking a stock design (they are likely going to need a somewhat unique set of ratios compared to an ICE bike, but choosing different gear cogs is less of a customization than removing a neutral mechanism). One advantage to having neutral is having the bike sitting, on, but in a mode where nobody can run over themselves by grabbing the wrong handlebar. When I test rode the Zero there was a little safety lesson before I could board the bike that involved basically "keep in mind that if you touch the throttle now it *will* move so watch what you do".
It might take less power to put a small speaker that emits a whining sound when you twist the throttle while disengaged. How about some LEDs in the motor casing that make it look like a plasma ball is forming? ;)
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I would be surprised if there was a neutral on that transmission. The IET was designed from the ground up to be a transmission for an electric motor, so there is no need to accommodate the quirky requirements of an ICE transmission. (But who knows? Perhaps when they decided to mimic an ICE engine, they including the neutral position.)
As for the throttle dangers on a "live" bike; the Enertia has exactly the same issue, which is dealt with by having those flashing lights on the top of the instrument cluster. The Empulse appears to have the same lights (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1194.msg8472#msg8472).
I thought that there may be some bike throttle thing that people do that involves revving up the engine and then dumping the clutch. It doesn't sound like something that I would do, as I suspect that it would damage the poor bike, but perhaps some people do that. Am I on to anything here, or just talking nonsense? ???
I hadn't thought about plasma balls in the motor. I assume the computer will save us from that (until we figure out how to disable that, and then all we need to do is channel the plasma ball, and we have a pretty awesome weapon to fight Zombies and Aliens!) :o
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I have suggested in the past some kind of ice exhaust/engine sound as an acessory. Would be a nice option for those that will miss the feel of an old motorcycle. :-*
I was going to say that the computer might not let you rev with the clutch pulled in in the first place, but they may need to allow it to engage for no other reason than for the occasional need to help the gears engage (most notably if you coast to a stop with the clutch pulled in, then it is hard to downshift without blipping the clutch slightly).
With respect to having a neutral - it might actually cost more to get rid of it as that would require a custom gear set rather than taking a stock design (they are likely going to need a somewhat unique set of ratios compared to an ICE bike, but choosing different gear cogs is less of a customization than removing a neutral mechanism). One advantage to having neutral is having the bike sitting, on, but in a mode where nobody can run over themselves by grabbing the wrong handlebar. When I test rode the Zero there was a little safety lesson before I could board the bike that involved basically "keep in mind that if you touch the throttle now it *will* move so watch what you do".
It might take less power to put a small speaker that emits a whining sound when you twist the throttle while disengaged. How about some LEDs in the motor casing that make it look like a plasma ball is forming? ;)
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As for the throttle dangers on a "live" bike; the Enertia has exactly the same issue, which is dealt with by having those flashing lights on the top of the instrument cluster. The Empulse appears to have the same lights (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1194.msg8472#msg8472).
"live bike" issues are probably not worth adding a neutral mode to a single gear direct drive system, but once you have gears and involving a neutral position is a well known mechanism, it's not much of a bother to add it for "increased" safety. You'd still want some indicators because when it is in gear and stopped there is no engine sound to warn you that the throttle is live...
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"live bike" issues are probably not worth adding a neutral mode to a single gear direct drive system, but once you have gears and involving a neutral position is a well known mechanism, it's not much of a bother to add it for "increased" safety.
It's a new world! "Live bike" issues can be taken care of by the engine computer cutting power somewhere. Way easier to implement than an extra transmission operating condition. Especially since you need a power cut anyway, due to 6 kWh being enough to seriously **** up something.
Sometimes, you can't modify any more, and you might as well cut clean from the old model. That's why we ride motorcycles instead of cars, not go-karts.
For that matter, electric drive also means reverse gear can be implemented. Does anyone seriously think reverse will be engaged by extra gearing, that will be dead weight 99.9% of the time, or by a switch somewhere, flipping polarity?
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"live bike" issues are probably not worth adding a neutral mode to a single gear direct drive system, but once you have gears and involving a neutral position is a well known mechanism, it's not much of a bother to add it for "increased" safety.
It's a new world! "Live bike" issues can be taken care of by the engine computer cutting power somewhere. Way easier to implement than an extra transmission operating condition. Especially since you need a power cut anyway, due to 6 kWh being enough to seriously **** up something.
Some of the design choices on this bike are there "for feel", not because they are needed. In general, an electric vehicle may not need a neutral, but is that the design choice they'd make for this bike where they are clearly not embracing all of the clean cuts one might make from the old world?
Sometimes, you can't modify any more, and you might as well cut clean from the old model. That's why we ride motorcycles instead of cars, not go-karts.
For that matter, electric drive also means reverse gear can be implemented. Does anyone seriously think reverse will be engaged by extra gearing, that will be dead weight 99.9% of the time, or by a switch somewhere, flipping polarity?
Technically, can't they also do away with the clutch lever with controller logic? And yet they still have one.
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Technically, can't they also do away with the clutch lever with controller logic? And yet they still have one.
Sure, but if the rationale is "live bike" safety, then having _both_ a clutch and a neutral is mostly redundant. Of course, if the decision is driven by marketing, not engineering, then yes, "for feel" becomes a rationale, and then it's a matter of whether the marketing people can override engineering. Maybe, maybe not.
I forget: did the old, direct-drive Empulse prototypes have a clutch? If so, was it a mechanical clutch, or "virtual"?
Back on topic: electric vehicles may need a speaker anyway, due to pedestrian safety. It may be mandatory. I remember the first time a hybrid car crept up on me in a parking lot, in "stealth mode." Way creepy the first time or two. If you've already got a speaker, then rev sounds would just be combined with some "live bike" sound.
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I forget: did the old, direct-drive Empulse prototypes have a clutch? If so, was it a mechanical clutch, or "virtual"?
(http://www.brammo.com/brammogallery_empulse/images/2.jpg)
No clutch. The bike that they raced with didn't have one either. Steve Atlas, their rider, had said that the lack of clutch took a bit of getting used to.
From Electric Superbike Racing: Brammo Part I (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/794/9844/Motorcycle-Article/Electric-Superbike-Racing--Brammo-Part-I.aspx)
My left hand must have swatted at the clutch lever under braking for every corner during at least the first three laps of every session; not to mention I would consistently find my left foot pawing at an imaginary shift lever far more frequently than I would like to admit.
If you've already got a speaker, then rev sounds would just be combined with some "live bike" sound.
Just as long it's nothing like the Domino Pizza sound (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1205.0)... :P
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Neutral is easy enough to come by in a motorcycle trans. (which I am assuming have been repurposed for the Empulse). The bike I built has a 4 speed with no clutch. It has neutral but you have to have some obvious indicator that you cant miss. I don't have such an indicator. Riding around is no problem as you are aware of what gear you are in but once you've stopped for a while or got off briefly an indicator sure would be useful. Especially since you can stop without worring about killing the ICE engine. I hate to admit it but I have driven the bike off the stand in the garage just while grabbing the handlebar/throttle to move the bike. Forunately I had it under control but it taught me a lesson.
As for revving I use a toothed belt primary and with the gears in the box spinning it makes enough sound. It just doesn't sound like a motor vehicle so I'm not sure if that sound is useful at all. Like the Pizza hut bike, Will a blind person assume that what they are hearing is a vehicle.
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I am pretty sure that I saw in the Empulse specs, or heard in the C.B. interview, that the Empulse will have a digital gear indicator, which presumably would also include a neutral indicator. A gear indicator would be very helpful to the rider as electric motors don't have much of a feel when riding like most IC motors do that help to give an indication of which gear you are in relative to your speed.
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I realized that when riding on my ICE bike, I use the sound or the vibration of the engine to figure out what gear I'm in. I could also use the rev counter, but that would involve taking my eyes off the road. If I was really smart, I would remember what gear I'm in, but sadly, I'm not. :P
An electric bike will have very little sound and practically no vibration. That means that I would have to look down to see where I am, or get better at remembering gears.
Of course, it may not matter all that much. If I crank the throttle up and I get sluggish acceleration, I could pop a gear or two down and try again. It's not like I'm going to stall the engine or anything. :D
Also, looking at the video of the Empulse on the dyno, the motor does indeed make noise when spinning fast, so I believe that I would be able to tell if I was already near the top end without looking. People with actual e-moto experience would be able to tell if that is true or not. I'm just guessing. :-\
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Neutral is easy enough to come by in a motorcycle trans. (which I am assuming have been repurposed for the Empulse).
No, the IET transmission was purpose built for electric motorcycles, actually.
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I really can't hear the motor of my Zero past about 40 mph. By then the wind is louder than the motor. Naturally, there is also no vibration that you can feel. You get a lot more vibration from the tires hitting bumps in the road. Plus, I wear earplugs and even if the motor made noise, I wouldn't be able to hear it.
With my IC motorcycles I rely mostly on engine vibration to tell me when to shift. However, both of my BMWs have digital gear indicators and I do find them useful, even if it requires me to take my eyes off the road to check what gear I am in. But I agree that being in the right gear should not be essential on an electric motorcycle. I imagine that you would just continue shifting until the gear lever wouldn't move any more. It might be a little strange at first, but I think it shouldn't take too long to become adjusted to an electric motorcycle with a gear box and most of us can count to six, in any case. ;)
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Oh, sure, I can COUNT to six. Easy.
But can I REMEMBER that I've counted to six?
Probably not! ;)
At least after I've done a lane check, turned on my signal, beeped at the cager coming into my lane, and checked out those two wimmin in the convertible.
Now... what was the question?
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From the Empulse R specifications:
Instrumentation: LCD display; speed, tach, odometer, gear position, energy consumption, battery status, estimated range and system status