Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: FreepZ on May 03, 2012, 10:40:39 PM
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Asphalt and Rubber speculates that the price for the Empulse is going be about $20,000.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/brammo-empulse-r-price/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/brammo-empulse-r-price/)
We'll find out in a few days...
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Well, I can guess at this point that I wont be in the market for the Empulse R. My hopes are pinned on the regular Empulse being within a price range I can afford... otherwise I am currently bikeless as my GSXR 750 sold the other day as part of my Empulse purchase plans. Did I jump the gun, well maybe, but I know this is the time of year to sell and I got what I wanted for it.
I really hope Brammo comes through this Tuesday... I need a motorcycle :-\
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I could certainly see how Brammo could offer two models with different price points. What I can't see is the more expensive one not having a fairing. For $20k I would want the RR without the racing bits. I mean for $18k I could buy a Ducati 1199 Panigale.
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I could certainly see how Brammo could offer two models with different price points. What I can't see is the more expensive one not having a fairing. For $20k I would want the RR without the racing bits. I mean for $18k I could buy a Ducati 1199 Panigale.
I have been lusting over the Panigale, that bike is seriously sexy... for me though, even a 20k Empulse would be less expensive with the 6k CO tax rebate. I know I have less room to complain but shit, $20k for a motorcycle... I could afford it, but how would I explain that to my wife? Yikes...
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I could certainly see how Brammo could offer two models with different price points. What I can't see is the more expensive one not having a fairing. For $20k I would want the RR without the racing bits. I mean for $18k I could buy a Ducati 1199 Panigale.
I have been lusting over the Panigale, that bike is seriously sexy... for me though, even a 20k Empulse would be less expensive with the 6k CO tax rebate. I know I have less room to complain but shit, $20k for a motorcycle... I could afford it, but how would I explain that to my wife? Yikes...
I think our Oregon tax incentives went away at the end of last year. The possible jump from $14 to $20 is really a $7500 jump from what it would have been last year.
BTW, there was a bicycle survey that I read once about "How do you choose the best bicycle". My favorite response was, "start with a cheap bicycle and move up until the wife gives you the look. ;D
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Empulsebuyer - isn't Colorado's incentive still in effect?
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Empulsebuyer - isn't Colorado's incentive still in effect?
Yes, it is. So a 20k Empulse is really 14k for me... but Im still paying sales taxes and plates on a 20k vehicle, which really eat into that 6k tax break. :o If it was up to me the price would not be a roadblock.
BTW, who is this guy? https://twitter.com/#!/thepeterha/status/198202619527827456
Cool twitter background...
Update: Ok, so he is the editor for techcrunch... he must know something mr Beeler doesnt??
Update2: The Peter Ha... I like that, from now on I will refer to myself as The EmpulseBuyer™
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If it was up to me the price would not be a roadblock.
I'd say, "cowboy up, empulsebuyer," but I know exactly what you're saying. ::) It's not merely the financial cost, it's the "approval rating."
BTW, who is this guy? https://twitter.com/#!/thepeterha/status/198202619527827456
I'm not sure. I've seen him tweet on brammo-related subjects before. His about.me page says he's managing editor of Techcrunch.
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$20K is 22K here in Illinois. Don't forget vehicle and sales taxes and shipping. So unless the non R version is way cheaper than that "I'm out". Also I like the look of the Empulse R a lot less than the origonal prototype. The belly area and large engine/trans/batt looks a bit chunky with wheels attached. The vacant area above the monoshock doesn't help much either. The origonal was sleeker and had the Ducati feel to it.
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Wait til Tuesday to see what the actual price is. We've been speculating 18-20k for a while, this isn't a surprise.
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What will be a surprise is when they reveal that through backroom deals and an intense arm wrestling match they managed to secure unbelievable pricing. The R is going to come in at the Empulse 10 price and the standard Empulse is going to be holding with the Empulse 6 price.
If wishes were Empulses... ::)
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$20k would still be a bit of a surprise... they had an extra year to dial in suppliers and refine the production model and manufacturing process. The batteries should be cheaper than they would have been a year prior... and I read somewhere that they get the cells from china. <- not sure about that though. So either they aim to maximize profit, or keep the price low and sell in volume. Im hoping the latter... They really need to stick close to the 14k price point for the "base" model.
Batteries should be less than $500/kWh in volume for the cells, so less than $5k there. I really dont think the transmission is going to add $6k to the price. I think the batteries are not the big cost they once were, and that is why Brammo is going with 9.3 on both models.
Besides, The Peter Ha thinks the 20k price speculation is BS... he seems like the guy who would have some inside 411.
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I think the plan is to leak to the press that it's going to be $20k, then price it at $18k. Then we all go "Hey look, its only $18k!".
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$20k would still be a bit of a surprise... they had an extra year to dial in suppliers and refine the production model and manufacturing process. The batteries should be cheaper than they would have been a year prior... and I read somewhere that they get the cells from china. <- not sure about that though. So either they aim to maximize profit, or keep the price low and sell in volume. Im hoping the latter... They really need to stick close to the 14k price point for the "base" model.
Batteries should be less than $500/kWh in volume for the cells, so less than $5k there. I really dont think the transmission is going to add $6k to the price. I think the batteries are not the big cost they once were, and that is why Brammo is going with 9.3 on both models.
Besides, The Peter Ha thinks the 20k price speculation is BS... he seems like the guy who would have some inside 411.
I wouldn't be surprised if the cells came from China.
Zero's cells come from South Korea, EIG.
My general feeling is that the Zero S pricing has a little bit of profit built-in ($2-3k/unit) .. as does the Enertia Plus. I feel like the two are competitively priced against each other. The E+ pricing should be a big hint to the Empulse pricing.
Let's use a Zero-like bike as the "base" for a price comparison. Let's start with the assumption Brammo has a better supply chain management and might be willing to take a smaller profit cut to sell the bikes, so let's use a $13k 7.9 kWh bike as the base bike price point. Also note the distinction between cost and price.. cost is the price Brammo pays its suppliers to source components in bulk. Price is the incremental change in the figure the consumer pays to Brammo. Hand-waving ahead.
1. Batteries. $500/kWh may be the base cell cost, but then you have to consider packaging, cooling, monitor hardware, assembly labor, returns / loss and profit. Zero sells the ZF6 5.3 kWh and ZF9 7.9 kWh at a $2500 price differential, $960/kWh. Brammo sells the (presumably) $8k 3.1 kWh 2012 Enertia and the $11k 6.2 kWh Enertia+, $970/kWh. The only real difference between the ZF6/ZF9 bikes and the 2012 Enertia/Enertia+ bikes are the batteries.
Upgrading the battery from 7.9 kWh to 9.3 kWh adds $1350 to the price.
2. Upgraded charger. Zero sells the standalone 1 kW Delta-Q QuiQ for $500 for the '12 S. A 3 kW liquid-cooled custom-designed charger + J1772 inlet is probably going to be priced in the neighborhood of $1200 (hand wave). Note that the included 110v accessory cable is also rather more expensive, as it includes the J1772 "gun" plug.
Figure the upgraded charger adds $700 to the price.
3. Upgraded liquid-cooled motor. Zero uses a modified 30 kW Motenergy PM0913 BLDC air-cooled motor, typical web price $800.
Figure upgrading the motor and cooling system add $700 to the price. Hand wave.
4. Upgraded motor controller. Zero and Brammo both use Sevcon Gen 4 controllers (PDF) (http://www.sevcon.com/media/2104/gen4_data_sheet.pdf), Zero is air-cooled. Brammo may be liquid-cooled.
Zero claims 220A for XU, 420A for S/DS. At 65V, this means 14kW XU and 27kW S/DS, which match well to the Zero bike's 2 minute claims. The closest Sevcon controllers are G4827 XU and G4845 S/DS. Thunderstruck (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/controllers.html) lists these at $575 and $875 respectively.
Brammo claims 270A sustained. G8055 seems to be way overkill for Brammo's application. G8035 maybe can do 270A sustained with liquid-cooling.. or maybe Brammo is talking about 2 minute numbers like Zero. Thunderstruck doesn't list the G8035, but another vendor lists (http://www.electricmotordepot.com/categories/Controllers/) the G4845 at $925, the G8035 at $995, and the G8055 at $1195.
G8035 seems to be about as expensive as G4845 (both are Gen 4 Size 4 controllers). Call it +$50 to make even numbers : )
5. IET. I assume there's a fair bit of R&D investment built up here, even though the material cost is inexpensive. SMRE's pricing to Brammo will probably be high, initially.
Assume $1000 IET cost. Assume Zero's belt system adds about $100 in cost vs a chain system. Transmission net = $900. Hand wave.
6. Upgraded displays, instrumentation, and logging capability. Zero uses a rebadged $200 KOSO instrument cluster for their bikes. I'll need to add a cycleanalyst high-current ($150) and an analogger addon ($100) to get similar functionality to the Enertia/Empulse displays.
Figure the upgraded displays add $100 to the price.
7. Various bits, bobs, etc. Assume passenger pillions and 12V DC are stock, those are about $500 in options for the Zero.
Figure $750 for better quality components in general and more standard equipment.
8. Frame, fairing, forks, shocks, brakes, wheels, tires are different. I assume the base Empulse uses components similar in quality and cost to the Zero. Likely a bad assumption. Call this a wash.
Total bill:
$13000 base bike price
+ $1350 battery
+ $700 charger
+ $700 motor and cooling system
+ $50 controller
+ $900 IET chain drive
+ $100 displays
+ $750 better components, standard equipment
= $17550 base Empulse price, assuming Brammo wants to take a hit on profits.
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Great post, proto, as always.
...Let's start with the assumption Brammo has a better supply chain management...
I'll buy that claim when it comes for the factory-built models, like the Plus. I'm not sure I'd buy that claim when it comes to small volumes of hand-built units in Oregon. Seems like two completely different supply chain structures. They are either going to have to buy a year's worth of parts and store them all, or buy small batches of parts to arrive each month. Both of these supply chains have their problems.
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@proto - To make the analysis complete you would have to estimate what Brammo might sell the ZF9 for if they produced it. Is that baked into the $13k base price you came up with (via some hand waving)?
I notice that the E+ with a 6.2kWh nominal battery is $500 less than a ZF6 with a 5.3kWh nominal battery, so there seems to be some better "kWh/$" value in the Brammo product line.
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Yes, impressive and detailed post... Props to Proto. Lots of great points there.
Flar makes a good point too though, the Enertia Plus is a bit more bike for the money than the ZF6. Not only does the battery have almost a full kWh capacity advantage but it has superior components (Marzocchi / Brembo / Works). There is also a huge void between $11k and $18k... I dont think Brammo expects $6-7k more to upgrade from an Enertia Plus to a base Empulse... that leaves a rather sizable void between the 2 where they would lose many sales to Zero ZF9s. My guess would be $15k for the base Empulse, $17k for the R.
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Yes, that's what the $13k Zero-like bike is.
I assume E+ uses a cheaper motor and controller, and most of the small components are reused from E Classic .. sort of a sunk cost. Chain instead of belt. Costs may be a bit higher, but the R&D is largely done.. Brammo can make a net profit with a smaller margin between costs and price. Assembly is cheaper in Hungary, though shipping may eat into that.
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Clearly I don't have as much passion, emotion, and time invested in the Empulse, but I'm thinking of BMW, Honda and their eventual move into the segment, which now looks like it's near. Polaris is clearly a major factor for Brammo, and while their snowmobiles have had to price competitively, the Victory MCs are niche priced. It's difficult to not niche price an electric anything, but in 18 months will an $18k price look as foolish as it does now, or worse yet, will it be laughable?
A $100k Tesla that could do 220 miles and was had the handling of an Elise and the acceleration of a Porsche was a good niche build because wealthy people who didn't need to save on gas but wanted to take a stand and get a lot of bang for their big buck could rationalize it. The Empulse will not be a Tesla, largely because of the range, and My opinion is that it will sell very poorly if it costs moe than every other bike in the building. $18k will KILL this bike before it even gets out to dealers.
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The latest word that I have read is that the BMW electric scooter will arrive on the market in about three years. Meanwhile, the two 650cc IC engined scooters that the electric one is based upon have an announced price of over $16,000 (10K Pounds) and up in the UK. So I would expect any BMW electric scooter to be priced around the $20K level when it is introduced. BMW is not shy about pricing their new models quite high. :o
I just don't see anything coming on the market from any major motorcycle manufacturer that will compete with the Empulse in the next few years. I think they are all waiting to see how big the market is for electric motorcycles. The big guys want lots of volume before they will jump in and that may take a while.
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I'm not a Honda fanboy, but I firmly believe that Honda won't wait for a market. They'll move mountains to get the battery costs down, and then they'll make a market. BMW didn't telegraph their IC scooters 3 years before they released them. BMW also said 3 years ago they weren't at all interested in electric cars. And now they're a year from release. Unfortunately, Brammo gave up a year of front running, and while I appreciate their vision, electrics are no longer anywhere near 3 years from launch by the majors.
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I bet Honda will go after the small electric scooter market before it does a large bore (capacity?) electric bike. Plus, I really think that they need to plug a hole in their gas powered bike price range first. Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki all have road bikes that fit into the $7-9K price range. Honda jumps from $4.4k (CBR 250) to $11.5k (CBR 600) with nothing in-between. I also have to wonder what kind of price they would put on a large electric bike after seeing what they did to the VFR :'(
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Two more days and we will have our answers. ;D
I think the whole Brammo team is probably taking a day to prepare how to answer questions about the race accidents now.
Anyway, these are the questions my very selfish self wants answered on Tuesday:
1 - Are they actually unveiling 2 models on Tuesday or just the Empulse R? Their website only lists the Empulse R in the pre-order section, now.
2 - If it's just the Empulse R, will there be another simpler, cheaper model to be released on a later date?
3 - Can I afford either model (if there are two)? If they don't have a price closer to their original 8, it will get tricky, but if the lowest price goes above the most expensive estimate for the prototypes...
4 - Knowing that I have absolute zero incentives in VA, will the Brammo financing plan be actually as good as Craig hinted it to be during the interview?
5 - We know the bike looks good, but will it have a cafe racer clip-on option (without adding to the price) and, maybe a slimmer option? It would be awesome if the Empulse (without the R) would come with less belly and with the clip-ons, even if it would mean less range, especially if it comes in a much lower price.
Well, these are the price-related questions I have for now.
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I think they are all waiting to see how big the market is for electric motorcycles. The big guys want lots of volume before they will jump in and that may take a while.
...except for BMW. They don't really do mass production, more like a batch production/mass production hybrid. So, as long as an electric isn't truly different from the rest of their lineup (namely, different work setups), they can do as short a production run as their supply/logistics can handle. That's the bigger issue- can they sign reasonable deals with parts suppliers at these quantities.
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I bet Honda will go after the small electric scooter market before it does a large bore (capacity?) electric bike. Plus, I really think that they need to plug a hole in their gas powered bike price range first. Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki all have road bikes that fit into the $7-9K price range. Honda jumps from $4.4k (CBR 250) to $11.5k (CBR 600) with nothing in-between.
YES. It's important to think like Honda, and not like Harley. Worldwide, scooter sales dwarf motorcycle sales. (What is it, like an order of magnitude's difference? Maybe two?) A truly viable electric scooter will build its own market. Of course, it's possible that the global scooter market is too price-sensitive to handle the upfront sticker. That still leaves fleet scooters- in-town delivery, couriers/dispatch, police, etc.
The next step up is the 250cc moto segment, which STILL dwarfs Harley globally, let alone BMW, KTM, Ducati, Victory, etc. Even a fraction of that segment is a whole lotta production line, and there are still delivery/courier/police fleets here. Honda is a force in this segment, too.
And, as I've said before, the real money (at least, going by the North American market) is in electric forklifts, "Cushmans," cherry-pickers, etc.
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I bet Honda will go after the small electric scooter market before it does a large bore (capacity?) electric bike. Plus, I really think that they need to plug a hole in their gas powered bike price range first. Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki all have road bikes that fit into the $7-9K price range. Honda jumps from $4.4k (CBR 250) to $11.5k (CBR 600) with nothing in-between.
YES. It's important to think like Honda, and not like Harley. Worldwide, scooter sales dwarf motorcycle sales. (What is it, like an order of magnitude's difference? Maybe two?) A truly viable electric scooter will build its own market. Of course, it's possible that the global scooter market is too price-sensitive to handle the upfront sticker. That still leaves fleet scooters- in-town delivery, couriers/dispatch, police, etc.
The next step up is the 250cc moto segment, which STILL dwarfs Harley globally, let alone BMW, KTM, Ducati, Victory, etc. Even a fraction of that segment is a whole lotta production line, and there are still delivery/courier/police fleets here. Honda is a force in this segment, too.
And, as I've said before, the real money (at least, going by the North American market) is in electric forklifts, "Cushmans," cherry-pickers, etc.
;D ok, my WAG for pricing, day before the event, is $14.999 for the basic Empulse, and $17,999 for the Ready-to-Rip the streets "R",,,,
As for thinking like Honda, it's good to dream to be that big,, but let's get two years production on the Empulse, and then -maybe- branch out to a big Cruiser or Tourer and expand from there,,,
Full line of custom bikes, bulls head on everything,,, lotta room to grow,,,, :o
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Two more days and we will have our answers. ;D
I think the whole Brammo team is probably taking a day to prepare how to answer questions about the race accidents now.
Anyway, these are the questions my very selfish self wants answered on Tuesday:
1 - Are they actually unveiling 2 models on Tuesday or just the Empulse R? Their website only lists the Empulse R in the pre-order section, now.
2 - If it's just the Empulse R, will there be another simpler, cheaper model to be released on a later date?
3 - Can I afford either model (if there are two)? If they don't have a price closer to their original 8, it will get tricky, but if the lowest price goes above the most expensive estimate for the prototypes...
4 - Knowing that I have absolute zero incentives in VA, will the Brammo financing plan be actually as good as Craig hinted it to be during the interview?
5 - We know the bike looks good, but will it have a cafe racer clip-on option (without adding to the price) and, maybe a slimmer option? It would be awesome if the Empulse (without the R) would come with less belly and with the clip-ons, even if it would mean less range, especially if it comes in a much lower price.
Well, these are the price-related questions I have for now.
So many questions now... why are they no longer accepting pre-orders for the base Empulse??? I imagine this could be because the R will be available initially so they want to sell as many of them as possible before releasing the base Empulse model... that would kinda suck for those of us who have waited this long for something we originally planned on paying <$14k for minus the 1500 federal tax rebate that was available.
Ugggh, I hope thats not the case because there is no way I will get the approval to buy a $16k+ bike :( and I would hate to have to wait for the base Empulse... I hope this is not Brammo's plan. Perhaps Brammo could eat some of the profit for those that have waited this long... hint hint.
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Let's hope there is going to be a base Empulse.
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Yeah. When I signed up for the Empulse preorder list, I picked the $10k Empulse 6.0 expecting to see a federal rebate on the order of $1k ($9k net).
$9k is hardly pocket change, but it's also *roughly* comparable to what a new intermediate gas bike costs. I justified placing the preorder at the time based upon the relatively small difference between the initial gas vs electric cost to upgrade from my entry-level gas bike.
Cost-sensitive Empulse preorders (6.0 and 8.0 models) have a few options:
1. Ante up and buy the best, largest capacity production electric motorcycle available this year. Jumping from $9k or $10.8k (after subsidy) to $18k (no subsidy) one year later is going to be a bitter pill to swallow.
2. Buy a Zero S. A bit less speed and a lot less sexy than the Empulse concept, but the cost is only slightly higher than the preorder prices. Freeway speeds are no problem, though pure freeway range is dire.
3. Buy an Enertia Plus. The most suburban range for your buck, a bit more speed than the Enertia Classic but still not a freeway commuter.
4. Buy a gas bike.
5. Wait for next year.
To be honest, I think most 6.0 and 8.0 preorders will turn into #4 and #5 .. and there's going to be a bit of ill-will generated if Brammo repeats the Enertia Plus non-response of "hope you don't notice the silent $7-9k price bump, really rather not discuss this right now".
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Yeah. When I signed up for the Empulse preorder list, I picked the $10k Empulse 6.0 expecting to see a federal rebate on the order of $1k ($9k net).
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4. Buy a gas bike.
5. Wait for next year.
To be honest, I think most 6.0 and 8.0 preorders will turn into #4 and #5 .. and there's going to be a bit of ill-will generated if Brammo repeats the Enertia Plus non-response of "hope you don't notice the silent $7-9k price bump, really rather not discuss this right now".
Yeah, after hearing the prices tonight I think I may just spring on a used DRZ400SM. Believe me, I love the Brammo, but I can't justify that much money on a loan for something that I was budgeting ~5k for. (after CO tax rebate)
Really wish they would have stuck with the original design for affordibility, but I understand to have the coolest toys you gotta have the most moulah. Maybe sometime in the future =/
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just a reminder to you folks waiting for Honda....
2009 Honda DN-01..msrp $15599.00
42 horsepower and 600lbs.. nicely equipped with the forks and brakes from a rebel 250.
Honda is not shy about recouping their costs when they feel like it.
Also of note.. KTM's Freeride is expected to be priced in the $13K range and that is simply a dirt bike..
BRD dirt bike $15K
Vectrix VX1 Li + $14K
Just to keep things in perspective.
Cheers,
Don
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LOL!
Thanks Don, for bringing us all back to reality from our daydreams of being able to have our cake and eat it too.
I guess we all need to remember that the three rules of purchasing apply to everything in life. In this case, we can have a bike that is Fast, Cheap, High Quality. Pick two.
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I guess we all need to remember that the three rules of purchasing apply to everything in life. In this case, we can have a bike that is Fast, Cheap, High Quality. Pick two.
I think in this case its pick one. My 1990 FZR400 is as fast as this bike in every category. It's way slower than a SV650.
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I certainly believe that the Empulse R is worth the money, it is just going to be hard for some people to afford, especially when you figure the additional cost of state sales tax and licensing fees, which are quite high in California. The CA $900 rebate won't even cover those fees, unfortunately.
Then there is the cost of full insurance coverage, if you finance your purchase. It will be interesting to see what the insurance industry is going to charge to cover the Empulse. My guess is the premium will be similar to a Ducati. Fortunately, I don't know what that is. I paid cash for my Zero and only have it covered for $250K/500K liability, for which I am paying only $32 a year from Progressive (I get a lot of discounts due to my multi-bike policy, age and experience).
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Skuzzle, you're probably right with your 400 comparison.
I think this is the big problem.
Brammo keep comparing the Empulse with bikes it just shouldn't be compared with. If it is compared with the likes of Ducati and Triumph it will lose and horribly. The argument will end up damaging the case for electric vehicles which is a shame. If this seems harsh it is nothing compared with what the biking press are going to come up with. When they and the majority of bikers ride it they won't be thinking green or cheap, they'll be thinking 'bit disappointed with the acceleration, not like my old Ducati/Triumph'. If, however, it is marketed as the first 'real world speeds' commuter/cafe/city runabout it's a fantastic bike. It fulfills. Looks good parked, goes to and from most people's work and can carry your Mrs/Mr on the back for a gentle summer ride. All this, electric low maintenance and chargeable from a solar setup! As the hostess would say - ''awesome'', whatever the price.
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Hard to pick a comparison target.
Initial cost of entry higher than just about any bike out there. TCO probably comparable to a 600cc sportbike, or maybe a 650cc standard. Performance between a 500cc and a 650cc standard. Range smaller than all but the peanut tank bikes.
Something that would be interesting.. an electric manufacturer that offered an "all in" price..
"we pay for all your fuel, maintenance, repairs for X years, unlimited miles .. get out there and RIDE".
Yeah, maybe someone would take them up on it and ride 100k miles in a year. But as publicity goes, that'd be super cheap : P
Also extend the battery warranties. Claiming 180k miles city (Brammo) or 300k miles city (Zero) is nice and all, but both companies only offer a 2 year warranty on the batteries. That's not terrible in the motorcycle world, but I think an 8 year powertrain warranty to match EV car warranties would go a long ways to give people confidence. If the powertrains are reliable (and they SHOULD be), then it should cost the manufacturers very little..
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I always got the impression that the Brammo target was the Suzuki SV650. If that was their target, I think the Empulse comes close.
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I always got the impression that the Brammo target was the Suzuki SV650. If that was their target, I think the Empulse comes close.
My current bike is a Vstrom 650, using the same engine. I saw a review that had its 0-60 time at 4 seconds and a top speed around 115. Compare that to the Empulse 5 seconds and 100+. I'm actually more interested in mid-range speed. I hope to see some reviews before I have to make a decision on the R version.
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Depends on the definition of 'close'.
SV 650 0-60 in 3. something secs, Empulse around 5 which probably means 5. something.
SV 650 top speed a lot more than 100mph.
SV 650 Big engine braking with the thumpy V twin. Handling to satisfy beginners to advanced riders, possibly similar to the Empulse.
Looks - subjective but I reckon the Empulse has it there.
Most bikers I know are concerned with acceleration, speed, handling and looks. The Empulse might have it on one of those four but I wouldn't bet 19k on it. Again, the bike mags will do these real world, not bench comparisons and will be merciless. I think if Brammo aimed at different targets they'd be heading for a win rather than a lose, from a publicity point of view. But I could be wrong and quietly hope I am.
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Brammo's certainly specified expensive forks, shocks, brakes, wheels. I would hope it would outhandle the SV650.
The SV650 will definitely be faster on a drag strip. It may even be faster on a track, it has about 20% more power than the Empulse and the same weight.
In real world riding, the Empulse will probably feel faster. My GS500 has a 11k rpm redline like the SV650, I typically rode it around 4-5k rpm. Anytime I wanted big power I had to shift once, maybe twice before I could get going.
On an electric bike the powerband should be much broader. So as long as you have headroom left in your chosen gear, to make big power you twist your wrist and go.
In the 30-65 mph range, the Zero feels almost as fast as the GS500, despite being significantly down on power (maybe 30-40% lower).
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Protomec, I don't doubt you and I'm after one for the feel alone.
However, the bike will be tested alongside bikes that it is marketed against. It happens all the time in magazines like RIDE or BIKE which are great magazines. If CB says Triumph Speed Triple and Ducati Monster right after being asked about performance then the magazines will test the bike on and off track against these. IMHO It won't do well. The Empulse is far and away the best production electric bike out there and this is the only real test it should do. If it's put out there as an ICE equivalent to the afore mentioned bikes, mark my words, it'll fail and fail big.
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So far the motorcycling press magazines have only tested electric motorcycles against each other. If they start testing them against IC bikes larger than 250's than that will be quite a change and mean that they think real progress has been made in the two-wheel EV world.
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So far the motorcycling press magazines have only tested electric motorcycles against each other. If they start testing them against IC bikes larger than 250's than that will be quite a change and mean that they think real progress has been made in the two-wheel EV world.
That's just it, THEY are US. We've been talking about Triumphs, SV650s, 500s, 350s. Truth is we don't really know and won't until these comparisons are made. On video and paper, Mr Brammo keeps mentioning Ducati and Triumph. I'm not the only one who'll pick up on this, it wont escape Susan Carpenter or anybody else tasked with reviewing the bike. We're being asked to believe it's the first ICE production motorbike replacement and I'm confident it is, but not up with the big boys yet. I'm worried it's being set up for a fall, basically.
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Yes, there is that.
Mr. Brammo can name any motorcycle he likes to position the bikes against. I would guess that "We made a Triumph Speed Triple / Ducati Monster competitor" sounds better at the launch event than "We made a GS500 competitor".
The magazines will have to decide what ICE motorcycles are most comparable, if they do a comparison test. In one sense at least, the Empulse is the Ducati Monster of the electric world simply because it sits in the highest tier of its class (naked bikes) of electric motorcycle desirability and price.
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They could compare ratio-wise to the Rav4 EV. Twice the price of the equivalent gas powered car (the IC Rav4), 100 miles per charge, and 6 hours to recharge.
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Depends on the definition of 'close'.
SV 650 0-60 in 3. something secs, Empulse around 5 which probably means 5. something.
SV 650 top speed a lot more than 100mph.
SV 650 Big engine braking with the thumpy V twin. Handling to satisfy beginners to advanced riders, possibly similar to the Empulse.
Looks - subjective but I reckon the Empulse has it there.
I have a slightly different personal perspective on this with my own personal comparison to my own SV650.
1) My SV650 is over 10 years old and maintained by me personally. My SV can't possibly still do the 3.6 second 0-60 that it was rated for at sea-level when new, a decade later at 5,280 feet of altitude. I'm thinking my SV is somewhere in the low 4's at 5,280 altitude. I actually intentionally down-sized to a slower bike when I bought my SV650, so I just need the Empulse to come close. Since the Empulse doesn't lose any power at all to high altitude, I'm hoping that if it turns out to be a sub-five bike, I'll be perfectly happy with the 0-60. This does mean I will definitely need to test drive before I buy, since no magazine review or stats will be able to compare my decade old abused SV650 ridden at altitude to an Empulse.
2) Like I mentioned before, I intentionally downsized to my SV650. One big reason for that was repeatedly looking down at my speedo on the interstate through town and being shocked to read 140 mph without even really trying. I had some scary close calls, and decided I didn't want to have anything to do with that ever again. Since I got my SV650, I can count on one hand the times I've exceeded 100 mph, none of which have been within the last 5 years. So for me the SV650 and the Empulse are in a dead tie for top speed. Because they will both go exactly as fast as I want to go, because I'm the limiting factor instead of the bike's top speeds being the limiting factor. YMMV.
3) When it comes to engine braking, I'm hoping the rear wheel regenerative braking that the Empulse is supposed to have will somewhat mimic my SV650's user-friendly compression braking. Only a test ride will tell, but for the purposes of bench-racing, I'm scoring them as a tie until I find out differently. As for the lumpy part, I'll be glad to get rid of the buzzing, vibration, and noise of my lumpy v-twin. Clear win for the Empulse.
4) Looks -- I prefer the cleaner, more refined look of the new Empulse/Empluse R over the somewhat thin and unrefined original prototype. When I looked at the Zero S in person, the first thing that I noticed was the lack of substance. It just looked small and frail and skinny. I'm not a little guy, so I was a bit concerned about the original Empluse prototype being too much like the Zero S in that regard, except with a fat rear section behind the seat that always looked odd to me. I like the more substantial presence of the new bike, and I really love the minimalist tail. For me the Empulse is the clear winner.
A couple of more categories:
5) I can't buy a brand new Brammo Empulse non-R until next year. But being 1416 on the list, I never thought I'd get one before then anyways. And I can't buy a brand new SV650 at any price at all, because they quit building them. Win for Empulse (without the R).
6) I hate putting gas in my bike. I used to joke about filling up my gas tank using just change found in my couch after parties, so it was free to me. Not so much these days, and the price is just going to keep going up over the years, and I hate being a forced participant in the whole oil thing. But my work is Green and EV-friendly, so I'll be charging the Empulse exclusively at work for free on M-F using Xcel WindSource wind power. I won't bother to plug it in at home except on the weekends, where I'm hoping to eventually charge it on solar. Yea, that is a pretty silly reason to spend 17K on a motorcyle. But it pleases my inner cheapskate, and my inner green, so the clear win goes to the Empulse.
7) Colorado has rocking incentives, so my final price won't be 17k. Without incentive, the SV650 is the winner. When the incentive is announced, I'm hoping it will be high enough I can score it as a tie. Because in my mind the Empulse is worth more to me, even though it will cost more even after incentive. I do feel sorry for anyone who doesn't live in Colorado.
I've never even considered putting the Empulse up to a head-to-head comparison with anything faster or more modern than my SV650. So talk of comparing it to something like a speed triple just sounds absurd to me. But I actually sold my speed triple because it was too damn fast in order to buy my SV650 in the first place. So if the Empulse really could go toe-to-toe with a speed triple, I wouldn't be all that interested either. I'd be looking for a slower Brammo. Again, YMMV, but the Empulse might just be the "just right" size that I find much more fun to ride compared with the hyper-fast bikes like the speed triple. I'm still waiting for my test drive to make that final call.
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Today my local Shell gas station raised its price for regular fuel to $4.37.9 a gallon and the newspaper says the price is likely to go up another 20 cents a gallon in California soon. That is also sticker shock.
As far as getting to 60 mph quickly goes, I could never match the magazines' test results (except with my Zero, which takes no skill to get moving) as I am not all that skilled feeding in a clutch while keeping the motor on the "boil" like the magazine testers can do with a high-reving IC engine. It will be interesting to see what it takes to get the Empulse off the line quickly. Will you need to rev it up, or will you just dump the clutch and let the motor's torque move you along?
The power curve for the 2012 Zero S, published by Cycle World in their June issue, shows a flat 40 lb.-ft. between 1000 rpm and 3000 rpm, with oddly no reading below 1000 rpm. So I guess if Zero had a clutch, you could just rev up the motor a little and let out the clutch to get maximum acceleration.
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Today my local Shell gas station raised its price for regular fuel to $4.37.9 a gallon and the newspaper says the price is likely to go up another 20 cents a gallon in California soon. That is also sticker shock.
As far as getting to 60 mph quickly goes, I could never match the magazines' test results (except with my Zero, which takes no skill to get moving) as I am not all that skilled feeding in a clutch while keeping the motor on the "boil" like the magazine testers can do with a high-reving IC engine. It will be interesting to see what it takes to get the Empulse off the line quickly. Will you need to rev it up, or will you just dump the clutch and let the motor's torque move you along?
The power curve for the 2012 Zero S, published by Cycle World in their June issue, shows a flat 40 lb.-ft. between 1000 rpm and 3000 rpm, with oddly no reading below 1000 rpm. So I guess if Zero had a clutch, you could just rev up the motor a little and let out the clutch to get maximum acceleration.
Good point about the clutch complications affecting 0-60. I'd say I have a medium-hard clutch dump for most of my riding, but I'm nowhere near the kind of hard dumps the magazines do. That will impact my perception of speed too.
As for the Empulse, I don't think you need to dump the clutch at all to start. Just stick it into gear and let out the clutch while sitting at a dead stop. Then when you want to take off, just twist the wrist. I don't think revving and dumping the clutch will be necessary. It might make for some really fun burnouts and wheelies though! ;D
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I visited a Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki (big place) dealer today. I saw a new Honda St1300 "on sale" for just under $17k. The 600RR was about $11k, also on sale. These things have gotten expensive. The Empulse doesn't look so bad now. Although, the new VFR1250 for $5000 off looked pretty good.
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If you are looking at comparison shopping, I disagree. An St1300 is a big horsepower Sports Tourer that is in no way comparable to an Empulse. A 600rr is an all out sports bike... same thing, not comparable to an Empulse. I get where you are coming from. It seems that bike prices, in general are rising and that, I agree with you.
For me, it was the opposite. When I walked into Hollywood Electric, I couldn't get a grip that the little Zero Electric would cost more as my Concours 1400 that I just bought last year! The Concours has about 150hp, heated grips, power windshield,traction control, ABS and linked brakes! And after they announce the final price on the Brammo, its even more of a sticker shock for me.
So lets compare the Brammo to its closest ICE bike. A Ducati 696 Monster would be close. I think the R would have better suspension specs but the Duc will have better power (and probably better handling because its lighter). You can pick up one at the dealer for an MSRP of $8,795. How about a Triumph Street Triple? This bike is a wheelie machine! Insane power for its size(105 hp), great handling and can be had at an MSRP of $8,899. Now, ICE bike MSRP is usually quite negotiable and you can work down from there.. so even the non R is twice the cost of its "competitors".
So in my opinion the price of new technology is still quite high, very high. I still want one but now, Im holding off a bit and getting a reality check before taking the plunge.
Jose Soriano
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If you are looking at comparison shopping, I disagree. An St1300 is a big horsepower Sports Tourer that is in no way comparable to an Empulse. A 600rr is an all out sports bike... same thing, not comparable to an Empulse. I get where you are coming from. It seems that bike prices, in general are rising and that, I agree with you.
Yes, just looking at bike prices in general. I don't think there would be anything to compare to an Empulse anyway. There's the fast, but not so good on gas CBR; the better gas mileage CBR250 and Vstrom; then the no gas Empulse.
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Just as hard as finding a comparison gas bike (limited power but high quality components, no comparison for refuel time) .. is comparing pricing.
Out-the-door costs are relatively easy to come up with, though state subsidies will vary pretty widely. Operational costs for the electric bikes are claimed to be good, but only time and experience will tell. Future gas prices are also a big unknown, and represent a large portion of the total cost of a gas bike.
The only certain way to compare presently is to compare the initial costs, eg purchase price. I think Brammo and Zero could both make the comparison a little simpler by offering an inexpensive extended warranty, something that's rare in the gas bike world. If the bikes truly are reliable, it should cost them very little and provide for a much more favorable comparison between gas bikes and electrics.
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As usual Protomech, great post, well said!