Sticker Shock?

[scuderia]

just a reminder to you folks waiting for Honda....
2009 Honda DN-01..msrp $15599.00
42 horsepower and 600lbs.. nicely equipped with the forks and brakes from a rebel 250.
Honda is not shy about recouping their costs when they feel like it.
 Also of note.. KTM's Freeride is expected to be priced in the $13K range and that is simply a dirt bike..
BRD dirt bike $15K
Vectrix VX1 Li +  $14K

Just to keep things in perspective.
Cheers,
Don

 

[Vibetrippin]

LOL!

Thanks Don, for bringing us all back to reality from our daydreams of being able to have our cake and eat it too.

I guess we all need to remember that the three rules of purchasing apply to everything in life. In this case, we can have a bike that is Fast, Cheap, High Quality. Pick two.

[skuzzle]

I guess we all need to remember that the three rules of purchasing apply to everything in life. In this case, we can have a bike that is Fast, Cheap, High Quality. Pick two.

I think in this case its pick one.  My 1990 FZR400 is as fast as this bike in every category.  It's way slower than a SV650.

[Richard230]

I certainly believe that the Empulse R is worth the money, it is just going to be hard for some people to afford, especially when you figure the additional cost of state sales tax and licensing fees, which are quite high in California. The CA $900 rebate won't even cover those fees, unfortunately.

Then there is the cost of full insurance coverage, if you finance your purchase. It will be interesting to see what the insurance industry is going to charge to cover the Empulse.  My guess is the premium will be similar to a Ducati. Fortunately, I don't know what that is.  I paid cash for my Zero and only have it covered for $250K/500K liability, for which I am paying only $32 a year from Progressive (I get a lot of discounts due to my multi-bike policy, age and experience).

[machone]

Skuzzle, you're probably right with your 400 comparison.

I think this is the big problem.

Brammo keep comparing the Empulse with bikes it just shouldn't be compared with. If it is compared with the likes of Ducati and Triumph it will lose and horribly. The argument will end up damaging the case for electric vehicles which is a shame. If this seems harsh it is nothing compared with what the biking press are going to come up with. When they and the majority of bikers ride it they won't be thinking green or cheap, they'll be thinking 'bit disappointed with the acceleration, not like my old Ducati/Triumph'. If, however, it is marketed as the first 'real world speeds' commuter/cafe/city runabout it's a fantastic bike. It fulfills. Looks good parked, goes to and from most people's work and can carry your Mrs/Mr on the back for a gentle summer ride. All this, electric low maintenance and chargeable from a solar setup! As the hostess would say - ''awesome'', whatever the price.

[protomech]

Hard to pick a comparison target.

Initial cost of entry higher than just about any bike out there. TCO probably comparable to a 600cc sportbike, or maybe a 650cc standard. Performance between a 500cc and a 650cc standard. Range smaller than all but the peanut tank bikes.

Something that would be interesting.. an electric manufacturer that offered an "all in" price..

"we pay for all your fuel, maintenance, repairs for X years, unlimited miles .. get out there and RIDE".

Yeah, maybe someone would take them up on it and ride 100k miles in a year. But as publicity goes, that'd be super cheap : P

Also extend the battery warranties. Claiming 180k miles city (Brammo) or 300k miles city (Zero) is nice and all, but both companies only offer a 2 year warranty on the batteries. That's not terrible in the motorcycle world, but I think an 8 year powertrain warranty to match EV car warranties would go a long ways to give people confidence. If the powertrains are reliable (and they SHOULD be), then it should cost the manufacturers very little..

[Richard230]

I always got the impression that the Brammo target was the Suzuki SV650. If that was their target, I think the Empulse comes close.

[skuzzle]

I always got the impression that the Brammo target was the Suzuki SV650. If that was their target, I think the Empulse comes close.

My current bike is a Vstrom 650, using the same engine.  I saw a review that had its 0-60 time at 4 seconds and a top speed around 115.  Compare that to the Empulse 5 seconds and 100+.  I'm actually more interested in mid-range speed.  I hope to see some reviews before I have to make a decision on the R version.

[machone]

Depends on the definition of 'close'.

SV 650 0-60 in 3. something secs, Empulse around 5 which probably means 5. something.
SV 650 top speed a lot more than 100mph.
SV 650 Big engine braking with the thumpy V twin. Handling to satisfy beginners to advanced riders, possibly similar to the Empulse.

Looks  - subjective but I reckon the Empulse has it there.

Most bikers I know are concerned with acceleration, speed, handling and looks. The Empulse might have it on one of those four but I wouldn't bet 19k on it. Again, the bike mags will do these real world, not bench comparisons and will be merciless. I think if Brammo aimed at different targets they'd be heading for a win rather than a lose, from a publicity point of view. But I could be wrong and quietly hope I am.

[protomech]

Brammo's certainly specified expensive forks, shocks, brakes, wheels. I would hope it would outhandle the SV650.

The SV650 will definitely be faster on a drag strip. It may even be faster on a track, it has about 20% more power than the Empulse and the same weight.

In real world riding, the Empulse will probably feel faster. My GS500 has a 11k rpm redline like the SV650, I typically rode it around 4-5k rpm. Anytime I wanted big power I had to shift once, maybe twice before I could get going.

On an electric bike the powerband should be much broader. So as long as you have headroom left in your chosen gear, to make big power you twist your wrist and go.

In the 30-65 mph range, the Zero feels almost as fast as the GS500, despite being significantly down on power (maybe 30-40% lower).

[machone]

Protomec, I don't doubt you and I'm after one for the feel alone.

However, the bike will be tested alongside bikes that it is marketed against. It happens all the time in magazines like RIDE or BIKE which are great magazines. If CB says Triumph Speed Triple and Ducati Monster right after being asked about performance then the magazines will test the bike on and off track against these. IMHO It won't do well. The Empulse is far and away the best production electric bike out there and this is the only real test it should do. If it's put out there as an ICE equivalent to the afore mentioned bikes, mark my words, it'll fail and fail big.

[Richard230]

So far the motorcycling press magazines have only tested electric motorcycles against each other.  If they start testing them against IC bikes larger than 250's than that will be quite a change and mean that they think real progress has been made in the two-wheel EV world.

[machone]

So far the motorcycling press magazines have only tested electric motorcycles against each other.  If they start testing them against IC bikes larger than 250's than that will be quite a change and mean that they think real progress has been made in the two-wheel EV world.

That's just it, THEY are US. We've been talking about Triumphs, SV650s, 500s, 350s. Truth is we don't really know and won't until these comparisons are made. On video and paper, Mr Brammo keeps mentioning Ducati and Triumph. I'm not the only one who'll pick up on this, it wont escape Susan Carpenter or anybody else tasked with reviewing the bike. We're being asked to believe it's the first ICE production motorbike replacement and I'm confident it is, but not up with the big boys yet. I'm worried it's being set up for a fall, basically.

[protomech]

Yes, there is that.

Mr. Brammo can name any motorcycle he likes to position the bikes against. I would guess that "We made a Triumph Speed Triple / Ducati Monster competitor" sounds better at the launch event than "We made a GS500 competitor".

The magazines will have to decide what ICE motorcycles are most comparable, if they do a comparison test. In one sense at least, the Empulse is the Ducati Monster of the electric world simply because it sits in the highest tier of its class (naked bikes) of electric motorcycle desirability and price.

[flar]

They could compare ratio-wise to the Rav4 EV.  Twice the price of the equivalent gas powered car (the IC Rav4), 100 miles per charge, and 6 hours to recharge.