My Empulse Test Ride Experience

[BrammoBrian]

There are many standards under NEMA and most computer cords are good for well over a kw.  Even if it was limited to a current below that, it would be much more useful in an emergency than finding a place to store the current J1772 adapter or having to hunt around for an installed charging station.  Also, your comment about extension cords applies equally well to anything that plugs into a 110 outlet so your existing Empulse charging cable supplied with every Empulse already trips that concern.

Definitely for L2 charging you need a better system and connector, and even to max out what an unencumbered 110 household outlet might be able to supply may need better than the average extension or appliance cord provides, but a simpler cord for emergency situations does not have to charge at a high enough wattage to pose a safety hazard.  Even the Leaf and Tesla can plug into a standard 110 outlet - it's all in how much you draw, not how big and "marketing hyperbolized in order to sound bigger and badder than your competition" your vehicle's battery is.

I think an L2-capable J1772 charging port is an excellent thing to have.  I also think that the existing J1772 cable is probably a good solution if you are going to run that adapter at the limits of what an isolated home circuit can provide (though it should probably provide a way to limit the current further for situations where the circuits available in the garage area are weaker or are shared).  But, my opinion stands that the present charging options which do not include a simpler cable for emergency lower-wattage charges represent an inconvenience in so many situations, even as the charging network builds out over the next few years.

Plotting out my recreational rides through the mountains around here, there is no "interesting" route that will either result in a round trip on a single charge or making it all the way to the next civilized area that has a J1772 plug available, requiring me to wear a backpack or install side bags just to take what should be a free and easy ride through the mountains.  Not everyone has the time or marketing pull to lobby their local mountain eatery to install a J1772 charger.  If I was just concerned about city riding or commuting, then J1772 is an easier find.  But, did you really go to all this trouble to create a "REAL" bike that is limited to commuting duties only because it doesn't provide a charger that is convenient for back-road recharging?

Granted, this isn't the end of the world, but I find your dismissal of the issue and the substitution of "REAL" marketing terms in an attempt to distract to be a bit dismissive.  I, sir, am a REAL motorcycle rider who is looking for a REAL conversation...

I'm sorry that I've given you the impression that I'm being dismissive.  My attempt is only to give insight into the background engineering (I don't work in the marketing group) decisions that have led us to where we are.  I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about charging standards, and I was just hoping to clear that up.   

A few points:

1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord. It does not violate any UL or safety guideline.

2. Please show me where a Telsa or Nissan Leaf can plug directly into a 110V outlet without the use of a cordset like we supply with the Empulse.  I was not aware of that feature.  Tesla has their own "standard" with adapters to various socket types.  I agree that it is more flexible than the J1772 standard (and smaller), but ultimately not being used by charging stations outside of their own. 

3. Brammo is happy to go with you to any destination along your ride to help convince them to install a charging station or at least make a Level 1 cordset available for customers.  We don't have an inside connection at GreenSprings Inn. I just asked them if they had thought about it themselves and they said "yes". We just made it convenient for them to install it by donating a couple of Level 2 cordsets.  We have plans to talk to the Rock Store and Alice's about doing the same thing. 

Again - I apologize for offending you.  I'm not sure exactly where I went astray, but it was not my intention.   

[oml]

1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord.

Ahh, you will supply a cable with j1772-adapter on one end, and some std household outlet on the other? I always wondered about that part (I thougt you still need some j1772-station at home). You might want to supply more information about that on the Empulse-specification-website.

Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?

Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance :)


EDIT: minor linguistic errors.

[werm_works]

Here is my make shift cluster cover that works well while im charging it, my co workers labeled it the fee fee cover idk why....





Ok the backlash theory thinggy of mine could have probably amplified by the demo guys saying they are working on it rather than giving a simple explanation Brian did, and maybe a chain slack that intensified the feel lastly me riding my enertia more than my or my customers bikes, to be honest out of all the bikes I have ever owned the enertia is the bike I kept the longest.... Its just way too sweet

Oh hey that black charger is cool looking

[werm_works]

Oh yeah my enertia is back from snooze mode simple DH fix 

[flar]

I'm sorry that I've given you the impression that I'm being dismissive.  My attempt is only to give insight into the background engineering (I don't work in the marketing group) decisions that have led us to where we are.  I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about charging standards, and I was just hoping to clear that up.   

Thanks, Brian!  I do want to hear more about charging issues as well and enjoyed that part of the explanation.  The part that turned me off was where you started to use "REAL" terms to make it sound like any other solution was to be ridiculed. I'd prefer to leave those kinds of ad hominem points out of the discussion as it brings the discussion down a bit.

1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord. It does not violate any UL or safety guideline.

That's fine.  I'm guessing that the Enertia plug is similarly designed, but it is much more convenient than the Empulse adapter.  It may not be as capable as the Enertia's J1772 socket in the bike, but if it meets safety guidelines and it has less bulk, it has improved the usefulness of the bike overall for backroads and visiting friends.

Also, part of my point is that you may design the adapter cable as much as you want, but if it ends in a 110-style plug, then you've invited any real-world issues that come from home-brewing.  It's not just whether you've engineered the plug that you are giving them to push into a socket, but how well they've considered the socket they are pushing it into.  Is their garage on a separate circuit?  Was their garage wired for anything more than a garage door opener and an occasional electric drill?  Are they using an extension cord because the only outlet was on the ceiling (for the garage door opener)?  In the "REAL" world your "REAL" charging solution ends at the end of your "REAL" cord.

(And, did one of your own representatives not try to plug 2 Empulses into the same 110 outlet at a dealer's showroom right in front of me and laugh it off when the circuit breaker tripped?  I was never concerned about the safety there, but the cavalier attitude definitely undercuts any statements about a "REAL" charging solution...

2. Please show me where a Telsa or Nissan Leaf can plug directly into a 110V outlet without the use of a cordset like we supply with the Empulse.  I was not aware of that feature.  Tesla has their own "standard" with adapters to various socket types.  I agree that it is more flexible than the J1772 standard (and smaller), but ultimately not being used by charging stations outside of their own. 

They provide the same kind of adapter that Brammo is supplying for the Empulse.  The difference is that the adapter disappears into the comparatively vast storage space provided by a car, but on the Empulse I'm having to buy a bigger backpack to accommodate it.  A smaller vehicle can't really pull off the "stow this giant plug somewhere for convenience" trick as effortlessly as a car.  But, it can pull off a small storage pocket or chamber for a NEMA-style cord for a lower wattage emergency charge to get me to the next J1772 station.  The Leaf manual refers to using a 110 outlet as a "trickle charge" and mentions that it is not meant for a day to day charging solution (and its battery is only 2.5 times the size of the Empulse battery).

3. Brammo is happy to go with you to any destination along your ride to help convince them to install a charging station or at least make a Level 1 cordset available for customers.  We don't have an inside connection at GreenSprings Inn. I just asked them if they had thought about it themselves and they said "yes". We just made it convenient for them to install it by donating a couple of Level 2 cordsets.  We have plans to talk to the Rock Store and Alice's about doing the same thing. 

That's fantastic news, thank you!  Alice's is one of the places I'd like to see a L2 charger.  Right now the only charging opportunity there is a hidden 110 outlet that one of the local riders spotted, but a nice charging station like the GreenSprings unit would help improve the visibility of electric bikes in the area since they could use it front and center and provide a focus for talking points.

Boulder Creek is also a popular back-roads biker destination around here with likely no L2 charging stations in its near future, though it is more of a community than Alice's.

Again - I apologize for offending you.  I'm not sure exactly where I went astray, but it was not my intention.   

I wasn't at all offended, but when I'm faced with a company that fills its public information streams with race results and pictures of scantily clad models I'm starved for real information like we get here.  If this information stream becomes another conduit for "he-man macho sound bites" then I just feel like it isn't going to help me make a decision and I'll turn elsewhere to decide if I'd rather get an Empulse or a '13 Zero.  And, I do get a kick out of a lot of the random musings and race coverage I see, I just don't see those pieces as helping me make any decision or improving my perception of these machines for my own needs and uses...

[protomech]

1. The Empulse charging cordset is designed to be plugged directly into a household outlet, without the use of an extension cord.

Ahh, you will supply a cable with j1772-adapter on one end, and some std household outlet on the other? I always wondered about that part (I thougt you still need some j1772-station at home). You might wish to supply more information about that on the Empulse-specification-website.

It's buried at the bottom of the Empulse specifications page.

Recharge J1772 Level I and II
110V AC to J1772 Level 1 Adapter included

I agree re: wishing for an easily-stowable NEMA plug on the Empulse.
J1772 is an excellent (if bulky) interface, and rollout is already in progress. Huntsville has 6 publicly accessible J1772 outlets that I'm aware of, up from 3 last year. But this is dwarfed by the number of publicly accessible 110v outlets.

NEMA (as on the Enertia) may not be an ideal interface. But a general truth is that the best tool is the one that you have. If you don't carry the J1772 cable with you, then it is useless if you need to charge in the field.

A current-limiter on the charger would be a helpful feature when plugging in to a suspect outlet, regardless of whether the NEMA plug comes from the J1772 inlet or an IEC inlet - I tripped a breaker once with the Zero charger, and that will only pull around 8A.

Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?

I would also be curious as to the suitability of the Empulse batteries for CHAdeMO (or other fast DC) charging. Charging rates offered by CHAdeMO are on the verge of offering trips with zero charging penalty, when combined with an aerodynamic single track vehicle (100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph = 7:1 ride:charge ratios).

Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance

The largest of the 2013 Zeros charges at ~10 kW at the pack, vs ~3 kW for the Empulse and ~1 kW for the 2013 Zero Level 1. 30A J1772 will happily supply ~7 kW, and the spec supports rates up to 80A (~19 kW).

Faster chargers are heavier, and more expensive - there's a weight and cost tradeoff for batteries vs fast chargers. Here's an example combined charger/control system, Netgain's Pulsar:
http://www.ngcontrols.com/pulsar.php

* 24 kW AC charging (240V 100A), J1772 compatible, up to 150 kW DC level 3
* motor controller supports up to 370V battery pack, 500A (185 kW)
* liquid cooled
* 34 pounds (not including liquid, radiator, fans, tubing)
* 18.5x14.5x5.5 inches

In comparison, here's the 2012 Zero's discrete charger and controller:
* Sevcon Gen 4 Size 4 controller, 8.9x6.6x3.1 inches, around 10 pounds
* DeltaQ QuiQ 1 kW charger, 11x9.7x4.3 inches, around 13 pounds

Better size comparison:
http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/35769-Netgain-Pulsar-vs-Sevcon-Size-4-vs-Delta-Q-QuiQ-DCI

[Richard230]

Here is where I charge my Zero when I ride to to Alice's Restaurant. I plug it into a small boxed outlet sitting on the ground, with a GFI button, that many years ago used to provide power for a telephone booth.  I understand that the outlet is owned by Alice's and its power gets added to their electrical bill.  Having the on-board electrical cord stuffed into a hole in the frame of my Zero is very convenient, but since the charging rate is only 900 watts, it takes about three hours of charging to replenish my battery pack after the 30 mile ride to the Restaurant from my home on the coast.  On the other hand, I haven't tripped Alice's breaker with that charging rate, so that is a good thing and keeps me in their good graces - along with a nice tip at breakfast.

[flar]

Hi Richard,

I was referring to you when I pointed out the "hidden" charger at Alice's.  It's actually not that hidden, but it is over to the side and if you didn't spot the power cord coming out of Richard's bike into the outlet you wouldn't realize that anything odd was going on.  A purpose built charger would be more visible and might attract some welcome attention to the advancing state of EV motorcycles.

In terms of charge rates, my main concern is not that I'll charge up to full at Alice's or Boulder Creek, but whether I can get enough charge there over, say, lunch or breakfast that I can make a full ride through all of those mountains rather than just a quick trip to Alice's and back.  With the current range of the Empulse and the '13 Zeros I "might" make it all the way over the hill to Santa Cruz which is the first opportunity in those hills to find a J1772 station, but it will be hard to know until I try it and see how thirsty my right wrist is in the hills and curves.  And, the first time will be much less stressful if I know that there are a few places I can charge my way out of a jam along the way (taking a backpack along as insurance for the test rides would be fine, though, and I may discover I can leave it at home if the bike can make it all the way to SC in one charge, but I'll have to spend a good 3 hours there to make it back even with a L2 charging station).  And, if I can't make it all the way on one charge, then the adapter in the backpack would become a permanent part of my weekend getaway fun.  (cue in the theme music for "First World Problems"...)

[implovator]

When the details on the Empulse dropped, I was a bit bummed by the inclusion of only the J1772 plug on board. Being able to plug into a household outlet is critical with my Enertia. Then I started thinking about why I'm getting the Empulse and how it's going to change my habits.

I've got a short commute to the office, but on two days a week, I have to make a 50 mile (round trip), high-speed midday trip to campus. The Enertia won't make it. Sure, it would make it to campus, but I'm only there for 2 hours and that's not enough charging time to get me back to the office.

So for those two days, I ride my REAL motorcycle which is my current gasser. As much as I hype my Enertia, it's hard for me to consider it a real motorcycle with it's current limitations. It's sure as hell not a scooter or ebike.

When I read Brian's comments, that's exactly what I thought he meant. The Empulse is a real motorcycle compared to the Enertia and Zero's similar, older offerings. The Empulse is going to replace all of my motorcycling needs except touring/camping. And since I'm going to be using it for the same commuting as my gasser, I need to be able to get to campus and back quick. Furthermore, I need to get that thing charged during those few hours at the office before or after the midday jaunt. The pack on the Empulse is so large, that a level 1 really wouldn't cut it for my midday charging.

I also thought about those unforseen cases. Then I realized that having a NEMA cord on hand for emergencies could easily turn into a many hour wait. With the Enertia it was different. With it's reduced range, a 10% miscalculation on my part is only 4 miles. That's not long on a 110v outlet. A 10% miscalculation on an Empulse could be 12 miles, which is a lot longer at level 1. After living a few years with range anxiety, I've learned that it will be a very rare occasion that I'm stuck without a charge. And if I ever think I'll be cutting it close, I'll pack the cord set.

I'm perfectly happy with a J1772 plug on board and a cord set for a household outlet. I plan to charge level 1 at home. I'm lucky enough that I can charge at level 2 at the office if I need to. For those weird situations where I head someplace where I'll need a level 1, then I'll pack it along with me. I'll probably end up getting a tailbag for it to keep rain gear. It will have room for the cord set. But I definitely won't have it in there all the time.

[implovator]

Cool thing is there is no such thing as stalling, so no need to feather the clutch whatsoever or holding it down when at stop, and the funny thing too is the nuetral is found between 2nd and 3rd, I was tild the empulse really didnt need a nuetral but per DOT requirements they just had to throw a Nuetral in there and

My last post had me thinking about running out of charge. I've almost done it on my Enertia, and in that case I'd just push it. It coasts OK, but probably not as good as the Empulse in Neutral. So there's a use for neutral. Of course, I sure as hell don't want to push it up hill for long.

[Adan]

I test rode the Empulse R last week at Scuderia in SF.  I wasn't able to cut loose with it.  Mostly city streets riding with one short burst of speed and one nice set of twisties.  But I came off of it with a big grin and hugely impressed. 

The acceleration and the handling make this an absolute blast to ride. It's like those guys in the promo video say, lay the Empulse into a turn and feeling no engine vibrations dulling the interface between rider and road, really enhances the riding experience.  You can say it's better or worse performance-wise than something like a Street Triple, but no gas bike gives you that same sensation.

I thought the chassis were quite good.  Overall, the bike is smaller and more nimble than I imagined it would be. Generally it all seems very high quality, you do feel like you're on an elite machine.

The "backlash" wasn't an issue for me.  It's noticeable, and not quite like what I've felt on any gas bike, but so what . . . it's just a slightly clunking when starting from a stop.

If I had no electric motorcycle right now, I'd get an Empulse.  But my Enertia has served me so well for the past year as a commuter, it just makes sense for me to wait a while.  There's some nice Marin roads that I could have fun on within one charge starting from my house.  But it would still be primarily a commuter, and so dumping the Enertia for the Empulse would be mostly gratuitous.

Test ride done, I can say for sure that there's an Empulse in my future, probably a year or so down the road.

[BrammoBrian]

Something else, as I am speaking to the one responsible directly: May you consider a CHAdeMO plug (in the future? possible optional?)? As far (hint: not very much) as I understand it it could/should be considered superior to j1772 in most ways, not only the maximum supplied power but also the amount of "power electronics" required in the vehicle itself (should be less). I for myself consider that a key improvement in the 2013-Series of Zero - it effectively doubles/nfolds the range I have here in germany (there is already one Station every 100km or something like that) - Nuremberg to Cologne would be actually realistic in one day, if still not much fun (~400 km => 4h driving and charging each).
Did you test if the currently used accumulators up to the challenge of such fast charging rates (e.g. 10kW - 30kW)?

Im sometimes under the impression that the rather low output rate of j1772-lvl2 is the bottleneck in EV-recharging time today, not the batteries themselfs. I would be happy if you could drop a statement about that, thanks in advance

EDIT: minor linguistic errors.

We are aware of the Chademo standard, but it's not gotten as much traction here in the US as the charge station itself is very expensive compared to a Level 2 charge station.  The connector for Chademo is also enormous, and presents some fundamental packaging challenges.


The Chademo standard is being challenged by the SAE J1772 combo connector for world dominance and we are essentially waiting to see which is the winner.  Typically, lithium-ion batteries can retain good cycle life if charged below .5C (i.e. in 2 hours).  Most chemistries can accept a charge rate of 1C (1 hour) with some effect on cycle life.  Charge rates of 2C (30 minutes) are possible with a larger impact to battery health, heating, and balance.  With these high charge rates, you eliminate the "float" portion of the charge and do not allow the cells to balance.  Over time, this will degrade your pack faster than a nice .5C charge rate...

There are other concerns as well... for example, charging at 2C creates roughly the same heat as discharging at 2C, so if you just completed a spirited ride on a hot day and got the battery system hot and then attempt to charge at a Chademo station, you'll most likely find that the current is limited (by the vehicle's control unit) anyways as the pack needs to cool down first...  I don't mention this to say that challenges can't be overcome, just an attempt to sensitize those who think it's as simple as wiring on a Chademo interface. 

[Gavin]

A) dang that thing is HUGE...(and no, "that's what she said" jokes please)

B) With the Enertia I always carried the cord...and used it a lot on rides. I would charge any time I was stopped to eat or shop...the extra miles, even if just a couple, really helped.

 With the Plus I still carried the cord (it fits under the seat, so why not), but I rarely used it on the road....only on longer trips.

So if I bought an Empulse, I imagine I would not carry a plug for daily riding, and either throw it in my messages bag or a tail bag for those weekend rides...or wear it wrapped fron shoulder to hip like some feral desert rider in a Road Warrior movie..."When the gas is gone, one man rides..." Eh, sucks as a movie tag, but get that movie voice over guy and it will sound right...


Gavin

[Gavin]

gavin

[protomech]

lol. Nice, Gavin.

SAE combo charger exists mostly as a fresh-off-the-presses finalized spec. CHAdeMO has a relatively significant install base in Europe and Japan, and is the only standard DC quick charger supported by shipping vehicles. I think we'll see that balance shift some in the next couple of years; GM has stated that they were waiting for the SAE combo charger to support quick charging, and I would guess Honda / Ford are in the same boat. (As an aside, is it possible to use a combo charger plug to charge an "early" J1772 vehicle without the combo port? The DC plug looks like it would intrude in most current vehicles, eg Nissan Leaf and Empulse).

1C charge is plenty fast for charging at any dining establishment, eg the Cracker Barrels across TN that support CHAdeMO. > 1C charging is primarily important for touring applications IMO. Balancing is less of a concern if you're charging from something like 20% to 80% ... and heat is less of a concern esp. with aero fairings as the battery discharge is quite low.

Eg imagine an aero fairing touring bike, say 20 kWh ~100 Wh/mile @ 70 mph (7 kW or 0.35C discharge). Discharge from 80% to 20% (12 kWh) yields 120 miles range, requires 103 minutes. 2C charge from 20% to 80% would require approximately 18 minutes (roughly 1 hour riding per 10 minutes charging).

We're not far off that at the very expensive end today - Lightning claims a 22 kWh large pack option for their superbike, and they claim 120 Wh/mile on the highway (maybe with their LSR fairing?) .. and the Monotracer also has a similarly large pack (20 kWh, 180 mile range @ 75 mph).