Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: FreepZ on July 23, 2011, 12:06:48 PM
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On ev-olution's webpage:
Brammo developing racing version of Empulse electric motorcycle for exclusive use in TTXGP World Championship 2013 program (http://ev-olution.org/?p=24840).
Electric motorcycle maker Brammo, in partnership with TTXGP, will develop a racing version of its six-speed Empulse, called the Empulse TTX, for exclusive use of teams racing in the TTXGP World Championship 2013 worldwide program.
Is that the official word then? The Empulse will have a six-speed transmision? Or is that just the Empules TTX? Or perhaps it's a miscommunication or wishful thinking from ev-olution.
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There are many websites that have the same information. The source appears to be Business Wire (http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsLang=en&newsId=20110723005010&div=-2012183699).
Considering that many of the websites that are carrying the story appear on Brammo's twitter page (http://www.brammo.com/twitter/), I figure that it's pretty official.
I hope we'll see a suave marketing video featuring a six-speed Empulse soon! Even better would be to get an email saying that my Empulse is on the way. (Ooh, now I sound like Gavin. :P)
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Even more evidence:
http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/ (http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/)
I had an uplifting chat with Brammo's Adrian Stewart who told me about the extremely high level of quality control and depth of knowledge at the factory they're using. Because they're adding a 6-speed gearbox to the Empulse, the release has been delayed.
I suppose it's not really a surprise to anybody (on this forum), but this is the first time that I had heard any official news that a six speed Empulse was going to be made.
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I had the same sort of conversation at Infineon Raceway earlier this year. I was told that Brammo was definitely going to put the 6-speed transmission in the Empulse and there were obviously some resulting technical issues that needed to be worked out before the bike could be sold to the public. One big issue is how to control motor revs while shifting between gears.
While Brammo works out the transmission issues, we cool our heels and post messages here to keep our spirits up while we wait for the bike to arrive.
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Even more evidence:
http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/ (http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/)
I had an uplifting chat with Brammo's Adrian Stewart who told me about the extremely high level of quality control and depth of knowledge at the factory they're using. Because they're adding a 6-speed gearbox to the Empulse, the release has been delayed.
I suppose it's not really a surprise to anybody (on this forum), but this is the first time that I had heard any official news that a six speed Empulse was going to be made.
Is that a non-red Empulse?!?!? Exciting!
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Even more evidence:
http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/ (http://gas2.org/2011/07/23/photo-gallery-friday-epowerttxgp/)
I had an uplifting chat with Brammo's Adrian Stewart who told me about the extremely high level of quality control and depth of knowledge at the factory they're using. Because they're adding a 6-speed gearbox to the Empulse, the release has been delayed.
I suppose it's not really a surprise to anybody (on this forum), but this is the first time that I had heard any official news that a six speed Empulse was going to be made.
Is that a non-red Empulse?!?!? Exciting!
Wow, I really like the white color. Didnt think it would look good, but there it is and it looks great! Looking forward to seeing the production version with the Brammo designed headlight. This still borrows the headlight from the Yamaha I believe.
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But these little titbits keep us going.
So very true.
The Empulse on display was more of a light silver color. And yes, it looked great and it had the upright bars rather than the clip ons. If it hadn't been up on the pedestal, I was going to nab it for a quick ride, but no dice.
The Engage and Encite looked pretty good too. All the Brammo folks that had ridden them said they were damn fun to ride and that Craig had been riding the Engage A LOT. :)
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But these little titbits keep us going.
So very true.
The Empulse on display was more of a light silver color. And yes, it looked great and it had the upright bars rather than the clip ons. If it hadn't been up on the pedestal, I was going to nab it for a quick ride, but no dice.
The Engage and Encite looked pretty good too. All the Brammo folks that had ridden them said they were damn fun to ride and that Craig had been riding the Engage A LOT.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 06:22:03 PM by Brammofan »
Did you mean to reply/quote? I think you inadvertently edited my post ...
long day? :P
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Fuggity fug fug.
I am SO sorry. I thought I did hit reply/quote.
And yes, it was a long day after a series of long days with short nights. Got home about 2am last night and got up at 7. The only things that got me out of bed and moving were: coffee and the opportunity to ride into work. :)
I was going to fix the missfire, above, but I kind of like the sense of instant credibility and "insider-ness" it gives you. I'm a giver, you know.
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Fuggity fug fug.
I am SO sorry. I thought I did hit reply/quote.
And yes, it was a long day after a series of long days with short nights. Got home about 2am last night and got up at 7. The only things that got me out of bed and moving were: coffee and the opportunity to ride into work. :)
I know just what you mean man, been the same for me, unfortunately I can't ride yet, (at the risk of sounding like Gavin:P, I don't have my empulse yet)
I was going to fix the missfire, above, but I kind of like the sense of instant credibility and "insider-ness" it gives you. I'm a giver, you know.
HAHA, how kind of you, I literally LMAOed in my cube when I read that...
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So what effect will a multispeed transmission have? Any chance it will extend the range?
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You may be able to pop a wheelie, since you will be able to get a lot more torque! ;D
You might also be able to get a bit more range, but only if you use the gears correctly (just like an ICE.)
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I spoke with the Brammo officials at Laguna Seca last month - they confirmed that the Empulse will have a transmission. Unfortunately they also confirmed that the production is delayed on the Empulse, with a target date of next summer...
When I spoke with Brammo officials in May (at Sear's Point) I was told that they would have some prototypes at the dealerships by the end of this summer, but at Laguna Seca I was told that this has now been targeted "by the end of the year".
Cross your fingers ;)
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Quoting delivery dates is tricky (we are now very close to the magic 1000 pre-orders).
If you pre-order an Empulse today clearly you will be at the end of a long line !
The first time the final design appears in public will probably be at EICMA in November.
The first bikes from production will go into long term high mileage testing.
The second group will be used for homologation and type approval in USA/Europe/Asia
The next group will be made available to the media for review.
Then bikes will go to dealers in the different regions N America/ Europe / Asia
The dealers will deliver in the order the bikes were pre-ordered, some customers may want to delay their delivery, if this happens other pre-orders will move up the line.
Everyone who has pre-ordered will be kept full informed via the Empulse Newsletter and they will be contacted by their local dealer 90 days before their Empulse goes into production.
Rest assured delivering the Empulse in volume is our #1 priority.
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Here's a plot of the Enertia with a simulated IET. I'm just using the Enertia to illustrate the benefit of an IET because we have dyno data (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=282) for the Enertia -- the Enertia and Enerta Plus are unlikely to use an IET.
[smg id=283 width=500]
4th gear is basically identical to the single-gear direct-drive transmission of the existing Enertia.
This particular IET configuration improves power in the 0-30 mph range by 20-30%, and increases top speed from 60 mph to 75+ mph. Note that 75 mph (WOT) on the Enertia would deplete the batteries in about 15 minutes or < 20 miles.
For this particular application (low-power commuter), a six speed transmission is overkill. Gears 2 and 4 are basically useless, you wouldn't spend more than a second or two in each gear. Six speeds may be more useful in the Empulse.
Keep in mind too that the IET will add weight (~20 lbs?), cost (~$1k?), packaging to the bike. I suspect IET will be less efficient than a direct-drive transmission; range might drop by a few percent. Suppose the Enertia Plus was available in a $9k direct-drive configuration and a $10k IET configuration.. wouldn't you rather spend the $10k on an Empulse 6.0?
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The first bikes from production will go into long term high mileage testing.
Everyone who has pre-ordered will be kept full informed via the Empulse Newsletter and they will be contacted by their local dealer 90 days before their Empulse goes into production.
Rest assured delivering the Empulse in volume is our #1 priority.
Thanks for the reply and info...
A) I am ready to do the long term-high mileage testing as soon as those first bikes are made :)
B) what happens if we don't have a local dealer?
C) does the "90 days before Powercycle goes into production" still apply to the Plus pre orders too?
Thanks
Gavin
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Well the Enertia probably doesn't need a 6 speed....but I wouldnt mind having two gears....basically the fourth gear from the graph above and also sixth....most days 0 to 55 is fine, but I would love to hit a shift and get the Plus up to 70-75 on some stretches of road...sure I'd kill my range, but I would increase my smile :)
Gavin
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Well the Enertia probably doesn't need a 6 speed....but I wouldnt mind having two gears....basically the fourth gear from the graph above and also sixth....most days 0 to 55 is fine, but I would love to hit a shift and get the Plus up to 70-75 on some stretches of road...sure I'd kill my range, but I would increase my smile :)
Gavin
Plus should have enough battery to get useful range at 75 mph. 35-40 miles is enough commute range for most people .. in fact, that's more real-life range than you get on the Enertia 3.1 at 35-40 mph average.
80 mile ranges on the Plus are likely also at 35-40 mph, which means 2-3 hours on the bike. Not many people have commutes like that, which means that either the bike allows for charging every other day or significant errand running. Or pleasure riding on slower roads.
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Okay, so I seem to be in the minority here, but I'm really frustrated. I got the newsletter today stating that the IET would be standard in the Empulse. Well, that's not exactly what I signed up for.
First off, I'm not a motorcycle enthusiast, I'm an EV enthusiast on a budget. I love the Empulse becuase it's an EV first and foremost. It's an EV that I can afford. There's no way that I could ever afford a Leaf on a middle school teacher's salary. But I've been saving up pretty much since the announcement of the Empulse and was hoping to be able to pay cash for it early next year. The one thing that sold me on this Empulse was that not only would it go Interstate speeds if necessary, go the range that I need it to, look kick-a around town, but primarily that I wouldn't have to learn how to shift gears like standard motorcycles. I mean, that was the selling point right there. I've never driven a motorcycle before, but that one bit of tech had me hooked. I really thought that one of the plus sides of being an electric vehicle was that it required a fraction of the parts of its ICE counterparts. Doesn't a transmission just add complexity to a streamlined, simple, revolutionary device? It's like adding a physical keyboard to an iPhone just to make it more like a computer. That would be just trying to make it fit into the mainstream, detracting from the fact that it's setting a standard that doesn't need to be compared at all to any modern competitor.
I am number 995 in line for an Empulse, but this is no longer the Empulse I signed up for. This seriously has me looking at a Zero S, despite the fact that it's speed is slightly slower than an Empulse, and it's look is not quite the street bike persona I was going for.
Help me out here. Was I wrong to think that Brammo was an EV company first? Or are my expectations just skewed?
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The plus sounds like a much better bike for you then the Empulse. Lighter and easier to ride. A very easy "first" bike.
The zero s has a max range of 58 miles. Much less than that at highway type speeds. And the top speed of 67 mph is similar to the Enertia.
The Plus will be an easy bike to learn on...I imagine it's top speed will be similar to the Zero S...though I am hoping Brammo gets the top end to 70-75, but who knows right now.
Longer range and lower price compared to the Zero...and in a few years you can move up to the Empulse after you get more comfortable on a bike and when Brammo has improved the Empulse and maybe even added a single gear version.
Gavin
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The plus sounds like a much better bike for you then the Empulse. Lighter and easier to ride. A very easy "first" bike.
I've looked at the Plus, and there's two things about the Plus that makes me hesitate: 1) I'm just not a big fan of the styling. Not to say that it isn't an innovative look, it's just doesn't match my personality. 2) The air cooled battery system fan. Because I'd be plugging this up at work, outside of classrooms, I'm afraid that the fan would be a distraction to the middle schoolers. I know that the Empulse has a liquid cooled system that makes it quiet while running and while charging.
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The one thing that sold me on this Empulse was that not only would it go Interstate speeds if necessary, go the range that I need it to, look kick-a around town, but primarily that I wouldn't have to learn how to shift gears like standard motorcycles.
Theoretically you could unbox the Empulse, put it in an intermediate gear (say 4th), charge up the bike, and never touch the clutch or shifter again in your life.
Take a look again at this chart of an Enertia 3.1 with a simulated IET, and the power at speed available in each gear. 4th gear is geared essentially the same as the actual Enertia's direct drive, and so it is a useful comparison point.
[smg id=283 width=500]
Below 20 mph, the actual Enertia's motor is operating below its power band in a torque-limited regime. IET can increase the gearing ratio, increase motor RPM into the peak power band, and improve wheel torque/power performance by 30-40%.
From 30 to 50 mph, the actual Enertia is operating inside that peak power band. IET has very little benefit here.
Beyond 50 mph, the actual Enertia's motor is operating above its power band and swiftly falling off in power output as RPM increases. IET can decrease the gearing ratio, decreasing motor RPM back into the peak power band, and significantly increase both performance and maximum velocity up to the point where the bike becomes drag-limited (likely 70-75 mph).
A gas bike needs a clutch to get the bike moving from a dead stop, and it needs a multi-gear transmission to enable it to operate within a fairly narrow power band.
An electric bike will produce 100% torque from a dead stop, and has a much broader power band. The Enertia above produces 80% peak power from approx 25 mph to 55 mph .. a gas bike with similar gearing would produce 80% peak power from say 45-55 mph. There's substantially less need for a multi-gear transmission on an electric bike -- thus making it a worthwhile exclusion on a commuter bike or low-cost bike -- but it does improve performance at the low and high rpm ranges.
I really thought that one of the plus sides of being an electric vehicle was that it required a fraction of the parts of its ICE counterparts. Doesn't a transmission just add complexity to a streamlined, simple, revolutionary device?
IET adds complexity, weight, packaging, and cost. It decreases range through additional weight and presumably slightly lower efficiency than direct drive. It can increase efficiency through operating the motor at a more efficient RPM, if the motor has a low efficiency range that the motor typically operates in. It can significantly improve performance at low RPMs below peak power and at high RPMs above peak power. And if you use that significantly improved performance then your range will plummet ; P
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Valeek...cool...also I agree that Brammo should make a single gear AND a shifty version of the Empulse...
Sell the single this year, add the shifty next...more options and quicker sales...both are good things.
Gavin
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Does anyone have a comparison chart like the one above with the Enertia without the IET?
That would help people understand the reasoning for the IET.
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[smg id=285 width=500]
Based on a Motorcycle.com dyno test of the Enertia.
http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=250361 (http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=250361)
For the simulated IET I picked 4th gear to be identical to the direct drive gearing of the Enertia 3.1. If you locked the simulated IET into 4th and never moved it, you get exactly the same power curve as you do on the Enertia sans IET.
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From speaking with the Brammo staff at the Infineon Raceway earlier this year, I got the impression that operation of a clutch would be needed to get the Empulse underway from a stop. That could be an issue for people who do not have IC riding experience. I think getting a motorcycle underway using a clutch without stalling the bike is probably the most challenging part of operating a motorcycle for a new rider.
It is going to be very interesting to see how Brammo integrates the 6-speed system into the Empulse concept by the time it goes into volume production.
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I think getting a motorcycle underway using a clutch without stalling the bike is probably the most challenging part of operating a motorcycle for a new rider.
Instead of stalling an ICE motorcycle, would an electric motor just be less efficient with improper clutch usage (i.e not moving to the next gear)?
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It's possible that the IET may be substantially weaker than a single speed transmission. Certainly Tesla had significant difficulties with a two-speed transmission in the Roadster. Starting with the clutch partially/fully disengaged may help to protect the transmission from the physical impulse of the motor suddenly applying torque.
If the transmission is significantly weaker then you likely will need to use the clutch to start from rest -- and the motor controller likely will enforce this if so.
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I am afraid that for a little performance increase we loose a lot of reliability.
Why is the Empulse RR not fitted with the clutch and gearbox?
My guess is that it would break...
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I am afraid that for a little performance increase we loose a lot of reliability.
Why is the Empulse RR not fitted with the clutch and gearbox?
My guess is that it would break...
Your guess would be wrong, however. They intend to implement the 6 speed gear box on the race bike (AFAIK) but didn't have time to do that before the 2011 racing season.
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Few reasons:
1. Money.
2. Race motors (Agni, Parker) may be more flexible than the Perm engines motors used in the Enertia.
3. Performance has been limited more by available battery capacity than by motor performance. This may change with the shift to shorter races with the TTX75 bikes on the same field.
4. The bikes can likely be geared so that the critical range of speeds are within 80% of peak power .. probably something like 60-120 mph. A transmission will help a bit here - possibly 10-15% more power over a non-transmission bike - but the weight/packaging could be spent on a bigger motor or more batteries instead.
5. As you say, reliability could be a concern.
6. Money.
7. Development time.
8. Durable, inexpensive, compact/lightweight.. pick one and a half.
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I am afraid that for a little performance increase we loose a lot of reliability.
Why is the Empulse RR not fitted with the clutch and gearbox?
My guess is that it would break...
Because they really want the good will associated with something like that?
ICE bikes have had clutch/gear setups since the beginning of time, do the clutch cables snap from time to time? sure... but how often? If you don't get your bike serviced and clean that's bound to happen...
I'm sure they'll have some maintenance schedule to take wear and replacement into account...
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For whatever it is worth, I haven't had a clutch cable break since owning my first motorized vehicle, a 1962 Vespa 125 (which would break a clutch cable every couple of thousand miles). It took a few years, but I think most manufacturers of cables have got the technology figured out. Clutches, now - that is another matter. ::)
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For whatever it is worth, I haven't had a clutch cable break since owning my first motorized vehicle, a 1962 Vespa 125 (which would break a clutch cable every couple of thousand miles). It took a few years, but I think most manufacturers of cables have got the technology figured out. Clutches, now - that is another matter. ::)
The clutch cable is not what I am worried about. It is the way the power of the electric motor is fed into the gearbox and the way the gears are engaged inside it. I think the gearbox will use quite some different parts/setup than a conventional one to cope with the lack of mass in the electric motor and the high torque it can produce.
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Concidering the amount of torque it can produce it doesn't need all the mass that an ICE needs. The flywheel in your ICE bike is there to give the engine a helping hand when you ask for some torque.
There are a lot of things going on in ICE vehicles that are completely unnessesary as soon as you switch to electric. I'm sure that Brammo is going to be thoroughly testing this system out before it gets into our hands.
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Everyone who has pre-ordered will be kept full informed via the Empulse Newsletter and they will be contacted by their local dealer 90 days before their Empulse goes into production.
Rest assured delivering the Empulse in volume is our #1 priority.
Has anyone received a newsletter update?
The first and only update I received was on August 17th 2011. I'm not sure if I screwed up my email or if the newsletters are a case of the best of intentions..
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I haven't received one either. I'm sure that you'll at least hear about it soon after it's sent, if you keep reading the forum.
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At 935 in line, I expect to hear happy tales of folks acquiring Empulses on this forum long before I see mine. Then again, just how many bikes will the Flexibles be able to make in a month?
I'm also curious to know when Brammo is going to pick the lucky someone who's going to get their Empulse for free. Probably not long before the first batch of Empulses are ready to ship, since the hope of a free bike is probably an incentive for some people.