Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Ebert on June 25, 2012, 08:39:03 AM
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...a strong point for me. Has anyone rec'd any emails or calls regarding their R pre-order? I would think some of the early pre-orders should have started to receive some information on delivery? My most recent email exchage basically told me I would be contacted 180 days from manufacture...ummm that's six months. So even if I get a call today I'm looking at a December delivery? At that point I might as well wait for the base Empulse. Somebody please tell me there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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I believe they are not doing the 180 (or 90 day?) advance notification thing for the R .. possibly not for the E+ either. For the R, you're likely to get contacted just before they build the bike .. so probably more like a 20 day lead.
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I hope you're right because I'm itching for a new bike!
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Yeah, the latest announcement was that deliveries would begin in June, but that appears to have been a fairly ambitious mark to hit. We can be sure that it will be a solid product once they finally deliver though... our patience will pay off for sure... I sold my Gixxer about a month and a half ago, so I am stuck with my cage for now. :-\
Who knows, they could be building them now and just dialing in final touches on the software. :)
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I hope we see a "first delivery" at least this month.. perhaps the CF tank bike we saw earlier. Not much time left to do it, though. So news this week if it comes at all.
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I've got some sad news. I finally got fed up with...[rant redacted].
I just put down a deposit on a 2009 BMW R1200GS to replace my gasser (WeeStrom). I've been commuting and adventuring on the Strom more and more the past three years. Despite the fact that it's a cheap substitute for a proper adventure touring rig, it's served me well...until I started doing some two-up trips with it. Anyhow, I figured it's time to stop rationalizing away its inadequacies and to finally get my dream bike.
I can't get away from it, I must have a proper gasser at all times. An electric today is truly just a supplementary bike. Now it's true that the Empulse would definitely be able to supplement much more of my riding. Regardless, when my primary motorcycle isn't fulfilling my needs, I feel it's more prudent to focus my financial energy on that motorcycle.
While the GS is not Empulse R expensive, it is pretty substantial purchase for me. So much of that money that I've saved up for the [increasingly more expensive] Empulse is gone. Therefore I highly doubt that I will be getting an Empulse R when they finally call me up.
And here's controversial part. I know I won't be riding the Enertia much once I pick up the GS next week. I know when school starts up that I won't be able to commute to the office and campus on the Enertia. It's just going to sit there in the garage and collect spider webs. Because of this reality as well as the emotion that I described in my redacted rant above, I'm selling the Enertia too.
It's a damned shame. I never thought I'd go another day without an electric motorcycle in the stable. I know I'll have one again...I just don't know when.
I feel like such a hypocrite too. Maybe this is the source of my negative emotion towards the Empulse shenanigans. I've done a fair amount of evangelizing over the past few years. It's not the few random blog posts and videos though, it's the daily conversations with people at work, bars, restaurants, bathrooms (those are uncomfortable), etc. Anyone that owns an Enertia knows that are always conversation starters. From the enviro-geeks to the good old boys that didn't know such a thing was possible. I love it when I get comments from people at stop lights...or looks from people in Prii.
And now I'm gonna be riding a BMW. I guess when it comes down to it, I'm a motorcyclist at heart more than an environmentalist.
Who knows, maybe I'm just being a drama queen and I'll turn around and get an Empulse when they call me up. It could happen. It's going to take a superhuman effort to rationalize such a purchase after forking over cash for the GS.
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I've done a fair amount of evangelizing over the past few years. It's not the few random blog posts and videos though, it's the daily conversations with people at work, bars, restaurants, bathrooms (those are uncomfortable), etc. Anyone that owns an Enertia knows that are always conversation starters. From the enviro-geeks to the good old boys that didn't know such a thing was possible. I love it when I get comments from people at stop lights...or looks from people in Prii.
Well said.
I'm not going to give up on you, Mr. Implovator - I think you'll be an Empulse owner at some point.
And if you decide to sell your Enertia, make sure to let us know on the Bikes for Sale or Auction subforum (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?board=12.0). I do hate to see those cobwebs on any bike.
Good luck to you and ride safely.
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I can't get away from it, I must have a proper gasser at all times. An electric today is truly just a supplementary bike. Now it's true that the Empulse would definitely be able to supplement much more of my riding. Regardless, when my primary motorcycle isn't fulfilling my needs, I feel it's more prudent to focus my financial energy on that motorcycle.
IMO if an electric bike is only a supplementary vehicle then it's really just an expensive toy. This holds true to a lesser extent for a gas bike that's ridden once or twice a month. As long as electric bikes are specialty low-volume customs, they will continue to hold a significant price premium over their gas counterparts - and the battery is a clock that ticks its life away whether you ride or not.
I would never recommend an electric bike to someone when it does not meet the bulk of their transportation needs.
I feel like such a hypocrite too. Maybe this is the source of my negative emotion towards the Empulse shenanigans. I've done a fair amount of evangelizing over the past few years. It's not the few random blog posts and videos though, it's the daily conversations with people at work, bars, restaurants, bathrooms (those are uncomfortable), etc. Anyone that owns an Enertia knows that are always conversation starters. From the enviro-geeks to the good old boys that didn't know such a thing was possible. I love it when I get comments from people at stop lights...or looks from people in Prii.
I won't lie. A significant portion of my motivation to buy the 2012 Zero was anger at Brammo's apparent disregard for their preorder customers and enthusiasts. Back in 2010 I gritted my teeth at the price and signed up for the 2011 $10k entry-level sporty EV bike. In 2011 I watched Brammo add features and slip the date with little explanation to 2012 .. and resolved that I would ride electric in 2012. In 2012 I considered the absolute lack of communication from Brammo HQ and the likely price hike .. and bought a competitor's $14k commuter.
Depreciation on the early electrics is likely to be quite severe, as you've noted. Unfortunate for sellers, but good for buyers. You might take a look at a slightly used Empulse in 2014-2015 time frame.. and compare against the modern electrics then. If they have outpaced the Empulse as much as it has outpaced the Enertia, then you can probably pick one up for a significant reduction over its retail price.
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You might take a look at a slightly used Empulse in 2014-2015 time frame.. and compare against the modern electrics then. If they have outpaced the Empulse as much as it has outpaced the Enertia, then you can probably pick one up for a significant reduction over its retail price.
Yep. That's the plan at the moment. HOWEVER, with Agility's new bike that Machone is checking for us (please keep the info coming), I think Brammo will start to see that raising the price like they did might have been a bad idea. If the Agility's Saietta is everything it claims to be and it costs less than the Empulse, adding to the mix that Zero already promised better bikes for the next year... Brammo will find the Empulse stuck between a cheaper and better bike and a cheaper and almost as good bike. Either Brammo will have to drop the price or improve the specs significantly. That probably means that I will be able to get a second-hand Empulse cheaper than Empulse Buyer can get a new one with all the CO incentives (or at least I keep hoping). Maybe I will even buy it from someone in CO, so I can negotiate some "incentive" price. ;)
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Yeah that incentive will have an interesting effect on resale value. Wont be an issue for me as I am keeping mine for the long haul (>5 years). The range is much more than adequate for my commute even if I change jobs and have to commute to the other side of Denver. If I buy another Brammo before then, I really like the idea of a dual sport that I can take up in the back country.
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Are there any hard facts yet on the Agility? The best I've found is power/torque numbers and some hand waving about range and no release date. Or is it in the same boat as the Empulse was a year or two ago?
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Yep. That's the plan at the moment. HOWEVER, with Agility's new bike that Machone is checking for us (please keep the info coming), I think Brammo will start to see that raising the price like they did might have been a bad idea.
I don't think Brammo raised the price on the E+ and the Empulse to gouge early adopters. I believe the Enertia Classic's release price of $12k was designed to make a small profit. After very few bikes sold at that price, Brammo dropped the price down to $8k (a fire sale similar to HP's $100 Touchpad) and announced the Enertia Plus once the inventory had been cleared out (at significant loss). I would be willing to bet that the E+ costs about as much to make as the Enertia Classic, Valence's batteries are/were very expensive .. but we see a price jump back up to $11k. $11k is a competitive price with the Zero bikes, and it's probably one that will make Brammo a small profit.
It's terribly unfair to expect EV companies to sell their bikes at a loss or break-even - while they do seem to have a genuine interest in making technology available to improve the environment, they are still companies that have paychecks to write.
So the question then is, is $17k for the Empulse or $19k for the Empulse R overpriced? It certainly is very expensive. I think it's priced competitively for what goes into it (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1259.msg8989#msg8989).
If the Agility's Saietta is everything it claims to be and it costs less than the Empulse, adding to the mix that Zero already promised better bikes for the next year... Brammo will find the Empulse stuck between a cheaper and better bike and a cheaper and almost as good bike. Either Brammo will have to drop the price or improve the specs significantly. That probably means that I will be able to get a second-hand Empulse cheaper than Empulse Buyer can get a new one with all the CO incentives (or at least I keep hoping). Maybe I will even buy it from someone in CO, so I can negotiate some "incentive" price. ;)
I don't think the Saietta R will be less expensive than the Empulse R when it hits the US. I'm also skeptical of their motor selection, production schedules and specifications .. at least, more so than I am of the more established EV manufacturers.
I think the 2013 Zeros (whatever they may be) will be very interesting as a counterpoint to the 2013 Empulse non-R. The 2012 bikes are a little uncompetitive vs the Empulse IMO. A price drop (say $10k ZF6, $12k ZF9) or a 50% power bump and a faster charger would make a Zero vs Empulse decision much harder.
flar - see http://saietta.com/ (http://saietta.com/). Their range specifications look pretty solid.. my general impression is their readiness for production is in between the Empulse concept and the Empulse production bike.
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Maybe I will even buy it from someone in CO, so I can negotiate some "incentive" price. ;)
At one point I did some math based upon buying a $12K Empulse 8.0, and getting a $6k CO rebate and a 10% federal tax credit. I figured out it could be possible to sell my Empulse each year between now and 2016 and buy a brand new bike for zero out of pocket. I could sell my gently used adult ridden always garaged 1 year old bike for around 6-7K to someone out of state who can't get the CO rebate (good karma) and then get new tires, new warranty, and any upgrades each year at no additional cost to me.
But then the 8.0 was axed, the price for the 10.0 went up, and the federal tax credit died. Now the math doesn't work very well.
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Yeah, my thin patience is ever thinner...
I find myself riding on my commute gasser, rolling off the throttle early, and imagining that I'm coasting to save electrons on my beautiful imaginary Empulse. Pretty pathetic life out here in fantasy land. :(
As (supposed) production nears, I'm really getting impatient visiting gas stations and experiencing my resentment at putting carcinogenic fluid into my bike as a necessary component of my job. At least it's not a car, which I don't own.
I agree that one should purchase an electric vehicle, only if it will meet the bulk of one's transportation needs. I intend to keep my gasser as a supplmental vehicle, only for trips exceeding Empulse's range, which will be infrequent.
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Patience is not my strong point either.
I'm new to the electric game and I don't know what to make of any of it. We all liked the Empulse concept last year or the year before. The promise was different to the reality or did we interpret it the way we wanted to? I think we were misled. Why were we misled? - it wasn't malicious. I think some of us made the mistake of thinking we were jumping on something new in the same way fast motorbikes were new in the 50s and 60s. Then, a bike was produced and people bought it, rode it, rode it some more until it got noticed before they talked about it.
In 2012 we talk and market and bs and market some more before we even know what these bikes are like.
You choose the bike that fits your demand. The Agility numbers/bs fits mine better because it is more in line with what I thought the Empulse was going to be ie. an ICE 600 beating commuter that could be upgraded when technology inevitably marches on. But it is unproven in the same way the Empulse is. Flar, the numbers are there. They claim a lead time of 2 months from order, which you can do now.
Where are Agility in comparison to Brammo? A completely different place is the answer. As far as I can find out they don't have major backing except for working with Agni(who have to get it right eventually) and a few technology grants payed for by UK taxpayers - thank you friends. They are like the Brammo development workshop without the big player partner or the factories or the government contract or the proven track record or the staff numbers. They are, however, producing bikes on a one order one bike basis....now. The lead time is 2 months so hopefully we'll see some ride reviews soon. The risk is higher if you buy from them. Like the Empulse, I don't know why they don't get a couple of pre-production bikes out to the press and show it off, unless there's something to hide or they're not finished. I have more confidence in Brammo for producing in volume. If I test the bike and like it I'll buy one but get a written statement on when it will be in my hands - that's how cynical I've become. Until then, my name is firmly on the Empulse order list.
Here's my last point so hold on. We're told by all the electric bike makers that it's really difficult, they're 'pushing the envelope' and that's the reason for the broken promises. However, the technology is NOT cutting edge. These bikes should have BLDC motors which are available off the shelf but are too expensive for them to make a profit - they are available on the EM trial bikes I mentioned on another thread. Racing is where you'll find the cutting edge and it goes round a road course on the IOM faster than 100mph. Jay Leno can buy cutting edge and it goes faster than 100mph and can beat some ICE bikes off the line. BUT it is too expensive. Ebikes are in a strange place. Manufacturers won't take the risk on producing something everybody wants but costs too much to produce because their accountants tell them not to. But they want us to take the risk on evolving technology at a price point above that of realistic ICE 'comparators'.
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Thanks for the pointer to the Saietta web site - it never showed up in a single google search that I did - just blogs that mentioned a few scant details.
I still don't see a price (even a ballpark figure) on their web site or any information on availability other than machone telling me that there is a 2 month lead time. It seems rather full of invented technical terms and missing pieces to be something that I'll believe can be ordered until I see reports of bikes in customer's hands.
At this point, though, I'm thoroughly enjoying my new gas bike (purchased primarily to be a good long haul backup to whatever electric bike I eventually get) and enjoying it enough that my urge to buy the first e-thing that is rumored to ship with my needs met is fading every day. I still plan to go electric in the near future, but I may let the landscape play out a bit first.
And on the delivering-on-their-promised-schedule front, Tesla started deliveries of the Model S on time - kudos! I still believe that the Empulse R will ship within a reasonable ballpark of their recent claims as well (not necessarily by end of June, but soon).
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If interested you could phone or email:
''You may also contact us by email at enquiries@agilityglobal.net, or by telephone at +44 (0)207 278 2228.
Monday - Friday, 9:00 am - 6:00 pm'' That's GMT+1
Prices are 9975GBP or 13975GBP for S and R. Don't take my word for it, ask them, which is all I did, because I was interested after Freepz posted the film in Offtopic
I still believe that the Empulse R will ship within a reasonable ballpark of their recent claims as well (not necessarily by end of June, but soon).
So do I, but if I can get my hands on something faster, sooner, I will.
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If interested you could phone or email:
''You may also contact us by email at enquiries@agilityglobal.net, or by telephone at +44 (0)207 278 2228.
Monday - Friday, 9:00 am - 6:00 pm'' That's GMT+1
Prices are 9975GBP or 13975GBP for S and R. Don't take my word for it, ask them, which is all I did, because I was interested after Freepz posted the film in Offtopic
Thanks machone, I appreciate you forwarding those numbers, but my point wasn't "I want to know this information and I lack the opposable thumbs to type an email". My point was, if it isn't on the web site then we are still talking rumors. If I have to ask basic information like pricing and availability via email then I don't want to know the answers because I'll fill my own in: "We're still just waving our hands, but we think this information, which we're not really sure enough of to put on our web site or publicly announce, might give you an impression that will keep you interested".
I'll wait for the information to get real. Then I'll probably still wait to hear confirmation that the hardware is real enough to be in consumers' actual hands... ;)
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@implovator, how much are selling your Enertia for?
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Well I called Brammo a little more then a week ago to "make sure I didn't miss the email/phone call" and I was told the delay was due to "marking department changes" and that I should be contacted by the end of June to confirm my order.
It sounded like B.S., and well, it's the last day of June, I got nothing...
This is why I'm not a doctor, I have no patience.
This is wearing me thin. I hope this is not an indicator what the service, repairs, and future business with Brammo are going to be like.? However, one can't help but to wonder...
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Brammo has a pretty good reported history of going above and beyond to service their bikes. But their preorder communications are absolutely abysmal : /
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Brammo has a pretty good reported history of going above and beyond to service their bikes. But their preorder communications are absolutely abysmal : /
Plus one on that. It seems that they have yet to hire someone to take care of that part of their business... It would seem kin of intuitive that, if you are trying to sell something, you should have someone to play the part of salesperson and keep potential customers, especially the fanatics in this forum, a little more informed about their orders...
Well, I don't want to start beating on that dead horse again, but letting people know that they are going to be a little late with their orders is not exactly rocket science... Even a simple Facebook post would do: "Hey, sorry everyone, we will start calling you on July 15 because of changes in our marketing department." See? It doesn't hurt and it avoids a lot of headaches, such as having more than a thousand people calling to ask what happened with their pre-orders... The silence about it is what gets people mad and frustrated.
C'mon, Brammo people, you should know better than that by now...
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Brammo has a pretty good reported history of going above and beyond to service their bikes. But their preorder communications are absolutely abysmal : /
I can attest to the service part...I had an error/service code show up on the display...Bike still rode fine, but I sent a message to Brammo..."Hey, riding home I got a V58 error code on the LCD...what should I do? Ok to ride?"
This is the exact message I got back the same day:
Hi Gavin
The v58 error is a 12v supply issue.
Not a big problem and you are ok to ride the bike still.
I will be in Ashland on Monday next week and heading back to los Angeles on Wednesday.
I will plan to fly out and replace the part on that Friday if that works for you?
Now I quickly replied back, "Well the error code went away with a restart...do you really need to fly out? if yes, do you need a place to stay?"
So, long story short, he didn't need to fly out for a one time error code that went away with a restart. Especially as the bike is running fine...even with me getting closer and closer to the battery upper thermal limits....today I was at 116 battery temp for a while. Air temps over 100 easily.
But he was ready to fly from LA to Albuquerque to replace a part for me...no questions asked...for an issue that wasn't even stopping me from riding.
So I would say service is pretty good...
Gavin
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I, too, ran out of patience.
I pre-ordered the Empulse immediately after I saw the unveiling in July of 2010 at Laguna Seca:
LagunaSecaEmpulse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuft3fw-E50#ws)
At the unveiling I was told that the bike would be available by the following summer. I waited... but when the Zero ZF9 was announced a year and a half later, I placed a pre-order on it too. I decided I would buy whichever bike came out first.
I placed the Zero pre-order in November 2011. I was told that the bike would be available the following March. Exactly two months later (in January!) I received a phone call that my bike was ready to pick up. I was flabbergasted. I just expected that the availability would be delayed - like so many EV promises.
My next concern was: would I regret the decision? The Zero and Brammo specs were similar, the prices the same... surely as soon as I rode the Zero home I would get a phone call from Brammo saying my Empulse was ready!
But now, after Brammo's announcement of more delays and increased costs, and after almost four months and 4,000 miles of riding the Zero, it seems like I made the right decision. I can't imagine waiting another year and paying an additional $3,000 to get my Empulse. I haven't heard a word from Brammo in any case.
I still look forward to test-riding the Empulse next year (?) - it will be an interesting comparison - by then I will have about 12,000 EV miles on my Zero ;-)
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Watching that video makes me wonder if that bike will ever come to be either by Brammo or by any other company. It looked mighty fine and it was just perfect for my needs...
I hope that a few years from now, Brammo will be doing really well and will commission a limited series of the cafe' racer Empulse for an affordable price.
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Well we are hearing something new here... looks like production has been officially pushed out to August: http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120701/NEWS/207010316 (http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120701/NEWS/207010316)
It sounds like they ran into a few bumps in the road... I didnt expect them to deliver in June so Im not all that surprised or dismayed. The dates Craig originally mentioned seemed too ambitious to me. I will give them the benefit of the doubt :) I am bummed about being stuck with a car this summer though...
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@implovator, how much are selling your Enertia for?
I'm not really sure. Tough to gauge what it's worth, really. A friend in the office is really interested. If he doesn't go for it, then I'll have to put some thought into a proper listing for it.
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Brian has been posting pictures of testing on twitter. Testing? Still? They HAVE to deliver by August, or Zero and Hollywood Electrics is right.
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Brian has been posting pictures of testing on twitter. Testing? Still? They HAVE to deliver by August, or Zero and Hollywood Electrics is right.
Yeah, and I don't think it's great marketing strategy to launch an electric bike after the rains start.
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I've got some sad news. I finally got fed up with...[rant redacted].
I just put down a deposit on a 2009 BMW R1200GS to replace my gasser (WeeStrom). I've been commuting and adventuring on the Strom more and more the past three years. Despite the fact that it's a cheap substitute for a proper adventure touring rig, it's served me well...until I started doing some two-up trips with it. Anyhow, I figured it's time to stop rationalizing away its inadequacies and to finally get my dream bike.
...
And here's controversial part. I know I won't be riding the Enertia much once I pick up the GS next week. I know when school starts up that I won't be able to commute to the office and campus on the Enertia. It's just going to sit there in the garage and collect spider webs. Because of this reality as well as the emotion that I described in my redacted rant above, I'm selling the Enertia too.
Thought I'd give an update. I've put 2500 miles on the GS. I can't believe how capable the thing is. Despite it's rediculous heft, it handles like a dream on and off road going fast or slow. I feel like I can almost track stand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_stand) the bike at lights.
I've made a half-hearted attempt to sell the Enertia, but I haven't sold it. Surprisingly enough, I'm riding it more often lately. School started up, so I need to commute from work to campus on the gasser two days a week. I find myself riding the Enertia and not the GS at least one or two of the remaining days. Looks like the Enertia is not getting neglected now that the new steed is in the garage after all.
And...the sting of the GS purchase has worn off a bit. I had a mild windfall helped restore what I had been saving for the Empulse. What am I getting at here? I think I'm back in the game for an Empulse R.
If the upcoming reviews are as positive as Wes', then that's the last motivation that I need. I was a bit concerned that the Empulse R might turn into another compromise bike for early adopters at an even steeper price tag. But 75 miles of mixed riding and 50 miles on spirited rides. That might cover my entire day of commuting on a school day (68.9 miles). I could see myself riding the Empulse all week long and only pulling out the GS for weekend trips to the mountains. And the handling of the Empulse is just what I need to get my corner carving fix around town so that I'm not a hooligan on the GS in the mountains.
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I have no problem with 70 mile days on the Zero, though I spend most of that time at 45 mph.
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My problem with sitting on the Zero for any length of time is its hard and narrow seat. ::)