Brammo Owners Forum

Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: EmpulseRider on May 04, 2011, 07:58:46 AM

Title: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: EmpulseRider on May 04, 2011, 07:58:46 AM
OK, from the information I have gathered this morning I am gonna go out on a limb and make the assumption that Brammo's "new technology" that debuted in the Encite and Engage will also be standard / available equipment on the Empulse. Advantages, disadvantages? Brammo is claiming improved performance and range!
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: FreepZ on May 04, 2011, 08:18:41 AM
6 speeds seems like a lot for an electric motor. I thought that the only limiting factor for the motor was that it lost efficiency at very high RPMs. Even the Tesla only has two gears. This looks a bit like a gimmick to me -- folks are used to 6 speeds, so we give them 6 speeds.

If they put a gearbox on the Empulse RR, and it outperforms other bikes without a gearbox, I will be more convinced.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Squid on May 04, 2011, 08:28:27 AM
I totally agree.  It must be some sort of IET.  Perhaps not 6 speeds, but something that will allow the rider to balance acceleration and range.  I've been thinking (absentmindedly, pie in the sky type stuff) about how even a two speed transmission would help.  With the Engage getting six (!) the performance potential for the Empulse becomes pretty staggering.  ("You mean I can access all that torque while travelling at speed?  Woah.")  I was always willing to wait until 2012.  Now I'm *really* willing to wait.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Squid on May 04, 2011, 08:38:39 AM
Interesting comment from Craig on Hell for Leather about how he was "scared" to give the Engage full throttle in third gear!  Yikes.  Clearly, it'll take some time to get the balance right for the Empulse, unless hooning in third and fourth gear is the intent of the thing ...

*** EDIT:  Craig was actually talking about the Encite, not the Engage.  Sorry. The performance of that bike is said to be the first time an EV will actually outperform an ICE equivalent. ***
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: EmpulseRider on May 04, 2011, 08:40:23 AM
Good points. You guys got me thinking about a few things. When do you shift? Is there gonna be a tack for engine speed? Gear indicator? Shift indicator light? Idle, clutch... certainly cant "kill" the electric motor like you can an ICE. Lots of questions about how this would work... the tesla is a 2 speed auto right?

Are there any other EVs out there with a manual transmission?
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Squid on May 04, 2011, 08:48:43 AM
And what about engine braking?  That's something ICE riders really miss when they get on an EV.  All we know (or can infer) at the moment is that it's a mechatronic unit designed to emulate a normal transmission.  Whether it does *all* the things a traditional bike transmission does remains to be seen.  I somehow doubt it can be everything a normal transmission is.  And it will *have* to be programmed to manage the "off the line, zero rpm maximum torque" behaviour of electric motors.  That'll take some time to develop.

In any event, very exciting news.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Gavin on May 04, 2011, 09:36:42 AM
I wonder how this will affect pricing?

I imagine this will be an off-road and Empulse item (though perhaps the Empulse won't get a full 6 gears?)....but will we see it on a commuter like the Enertia? If not, would it be available as an option or just not possible with the size constraint? 

Cool stuff, but still lots of questions. And waiting till 2012 is understandable, at the same time you have to get product to sell or risk losing the market to the big boys (ie, see LEAF and Ford about to kill Th!nk and other start up EVs that took too long...I would mention Aptera, but that was killed by ineptitude of Team B)

Gavin
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 04, 2011, 09:44:56 AM
Thinking about that 6-speed transmission, I wonder if it is mostly for the dirt bike? The lower gearing would make it a lot easier when climbing dirt hills. The extra torque and lower speed range might be helpful when trail riding. It does seem like overkill and unnecessary complication for an electric motor powered street bike to me.

While I am not too happy having to wait until 2012 (my guess) before the Empulse is delivered, I get the feeling that I would be a lot more unhappy if I bought an Empulse and then the following year, they completely revamped the bike's technology to make it perform better. If that happened I would feel like current Zero owners, who always seem to have just bought a brand new obsolete model, which has been superseded by a newer model just announced by the factory.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Gavin on May 04, 2011, 09:45:42 AM
where will this trans fit on the Empulse? Will Brammo decrease battery size since this improves range? Or keep battery size and make the Empulse a bit bigger? Or move batteries about a bit to keep size??

Gavin
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Gavin on May 04, 2011, 09:51:08 AM
While I am not too happy having to wait until 2012 (my guess) before the Empulse is delivered, I get the feeling that I would be a lot more unhappy if I bought an Empulse and then the following year, they completely revamped the bike's technology to make it perform better. If that happened I would feel like current Zero owners, who always seem to have just bought a brand new obsolete model, which has been superseded by a newer model just announced by the factory.

Cars and bikes and such in the EV world (current and especially future) are kinda like computers and phones and HD TVs and such...as soon as you buy one, well it is outdated....the market and tech moves soooo fast that the next model will have greater range, more speed, often lower price....

it is kinda crazy, but we will think of cars and motorcycles like an iPad or iPhone.

I have never leased before, but I am thinking leases might be a large majority of car sales in the future...but maybe not...the upside of electric vehicles is lifespan. when I get my electric car in a couple of years it could very well be the last car I ever buy. almost no parts to break or replace. new battery every ten years that will increase the range probably 4x what is currently available (i expect batteries to improve about 2x every 5 years)

Gavin
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Mr.Rodgers on May 04, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
Lots of questions about how this would work... the tesla is a 2 speed auto right?

Single speed trans.  They found that adding gears just complicated things and added very little in terms of performance/range.  Seems as if Brammo/IET has come to a different conclusion with this application
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: EmpulseRider on May 05, 2011, 10:37:27 AM
Interesting feature of the IET "simulated engine breaking". I can only assume this will provide some energy recovery.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Gavin on May 05, 2011, 10:42:26 AM
Quote
We imagine a motorcycle for the city centre that can both take on steep hills and drive at high speed, allowing it to be used on the highway or around city motorways.


I wonder if the 6 speed would help with long uphills...Electrics hate long uphills...well not so much hate as long uphills drain batteries hella quick...it would be great if the shifty helps keep the battery happy on long uphills...

Gavin
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Brammofan on May 05, 2011, 12:44:03 PM
Interesting feature of the IET "simulated engine breaking". I can only assume this will provide some energy recovery.
Let's also hope that it's "simulated engine braking" or it could turn out to be expensive.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: EmpulseRider on May 05, 2011, 04:12:58 PM
Interesting feature of the IET "simulated engine breaking". I can only assume this will provide some energy recovery.
Let's also hope that it's "simulated engine braking" or it could turn out to be expensive.

Man, too bad spell check doesn't compensate for stupidity...
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: FreepZ on May 06, 2011, 01:57:14 AM
I have to admit, when I first heard about a gearbox on an electric bike, I thought that it would be a gimmick with little real benefit.

I'm sure that everybody knows that electric motors have the highest torque at 0 rpm (compared to an ICE, which has highest torque at highest rpm), so what's the use of a gearbox?

Then I saw this website (http://www.fastelectrics.com/elecmotorbasics.htm), which does a pretty decent job of explaining electric motors. Here's an interesting graph from that site:

(http://www.fastelectrics.com/helis/motordyno2.gif)

I realized that while the torque is highest at 0 rpm, the efficiency (i.e. the power you get out, compared to the power you put in) is highest at 75%-90% (depending on the motor) of peak rpm. The more efficient the motor can be, the more range you will get for the same battery power.

I'm not sure how the efficiency vs rpm curve for an ICE looks like, but I don't think that it's the same.

I wonder if an electric bike with a gearbox would need to have some sort of efficiency indicator, to let the rider know when they are running at peak efficiency. I guess that this could be a simple rpm counter, but with the optimal efficiency zone marked out.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Brammofan on May 06, 2011, 05:22:00 AM
Excellent find, Freepz!.  The idea of an "efficiency indicator" is a good one, too.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 06, 2011, 10:08:28 AM
I have been wondering how the rider is going to know when to shift (assuming that the shifting is not done by an on-board computer). With my IC motorcycles, I shift by either listening to the engine sound and/or by feeling the engine vibration. While I do have a tachometer, I prefer to keep my eye on the road and not on the meter. But with an electric motor, both the sound and vibration would appear to give little indication when you would need to shift gears. Personally, if a 6-speed transmission is integrated into the power system, I would prefer that the motor controller perform the shifting for me.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Liv2xplore on May 07, 2011, 06:23:53 PM
I'd rather do the shifting myself, but an efficiency indicator is a great idea. Most people are accustomed to the powercurve of an I.C.E. along with sound to know when to shift. An electric does taper of in power at the top end and at this time you're in reduced efficiency. Keeping the motor at the optimum 4800 rpm (or whatever it turns out is best) would probably take at least an indicator to gear up.

To me, the act of shifting is part of the experiance on the bike, but that isn't saying that you have to do it that way. Car's converted with manual transmissions often only use 2nd and 3rd gear for most of the driving, including 3rd gear off the line. That's the advantage of the 100% torque at 0 rpm.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: oobflyer on May 09, 2011, 12:54:21 PM
This cannot be a coincidence:

http://www.litogreenmotion.com/ (http://www.litogreenmotion.com/)

Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Brammofan on May 09, 2011, 04:22:19 PM
This cannot be a coincidence:

http://www.litogreenmotion.com/ (http://www.litogreenmotion.com/)



We've discussed this bike before on this forum.  I don't think it has anything in common with the Empulse.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: oobflyer on May 09, 2011, 05:10:43 PM
To clarify:

Before Lito Green Motion unveiled their Sora bike, which has a 12kWh battery AND a CVT transmission, Brammo made no mention of using transmissions in their drive train.

But apparently the range, using the same battery back, can be nearly doubled if the power is controlled through a transmission. This seems like a logical evolution of the electric drive train, just as it happened with internal combustion drive trains.

I meant no disrespect to Brammo, quite the opposite. If this is the direction that the technology is headed Brammo is smart to delay production of the Empulse to incorporate a transmission into their drive train. This will allow them to not only compete, but to stay ahead of the game.

The Sora is not going to be an option for most people anyway - as it's priced out of the range of those in the middle-class.

Imagine a 12kWh Brammo Empulse with a 6-speed (or CVT) transmission - now imagine me riding one around next year.
 ;)
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: HighlanderMWC on May 09, 2011, 05:22:56 PM
But apparently the range, using the same battery back, can be nearly doubled if the power is controlled through a transmission.

I don't see how this is possible. A transmission isn't going to change the amount of energy required to go a certain speed (assuming the motor is geared to go that speed in its efficiency band). A transmission should just affect the speed off the line (or acceleration near top end if geared for fast off the line).
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: oobflyer on May 09, 2011, 06:34:43 PM
I don't pretend to understand the physics of it - but you probably hit the nail on the head with
Quote
assuming the motor is geared to go that speed in its efficiency band

The graph on this thread may have the answer - the efficiency appears to peak at about 2500 RPM - why not keep the motor spinning at this rate and maintain speed via a transmission?
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 09, 2011, 08:05:01 PM
My guess is that a transmission would reduce the torque required by the motor to drive the motorcycle up hills and away from a stop, thereby reducing power consumption and extending the range of the vehicle, as well as requiring a lighter and less powerful motor to propel the vehicle.

However, my feeling is that if 6-speeds is good, how about using a CTV transmission? That way you could keep the rpms at a very narrow range and shifting would depend upon load. Many IC motor scooters use this type of transmission and they appear to be relatively cheap to make and design and also seem to work fairly well, although perhaps the less sophisticated of the type are not as efficient at transmitting power as a mechanical gearbox.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: HighlanderMWC on May 09, 2011, 09:14:40 PM
I don't pretend to understand the physics of it - but you probably hit the nail on the head with
Quote
assuming the motor is geared to go that speed in its efficiency band

The graph on this thread may have the answer - the efficiency appears to peak at about 2500 RPM - why not keep the motor spinning at this rate and maintain speed via a transmission?


I just don't see how it would be possible to double range unless the motor was chosen specifically to generate this result and the range described as being almost purely accelerations. The Enertia is near its highest efficiency at about 35mph. When I commute I spend a fair bit of time at this speed and I don't see how a different motor + 6 spd transmission would have any chance of increasing that range significantly, never mind doubling it. What kind of Wh/mile does that work out to? I bet that would work out to be less Wh/mile than an e-bike can get (with full aero canopy).

If the motor has such a narrow band that it makes that much difference it would be a better candidate for a CVT than a geared transmission.

Again, performance I can buy...range extension not so much.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: oobflyer on May 10, 2011, 10:58:44 PM
This may have been posted elsewhere already - from Brammo, May 2:

Quote

 We had a tough decision to make recently: Deliver the Empulse this riding season, or integrate our latest technology and deliver a superior bike in 2012. After much deliberation, we decided to be true to our values and build the best bike we can. We still have a good amount of work and testing to do in order to bring you the world's greatest electric motorcycle. We believe it is going to be worth the wait.

[emphasis mine]
It seems clear that the Empulse will have a transmission... we just have to wait another year   :(
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Shinchan on May 11, 2011, 09:33:04 AM
Hey Brammo.  Yeah, you over there with visions of exciting new tech making your eyes glaze over...please please PLEASE release a version of the Empulse without a multi-speed transmission.  One of the things that really excites some of us about electric bikes is the simplicity and lower cost-of-ownership.  Transmissions fail.  I'm not saying that other components don't fail, but a multi-speed transmission is just another thing to worry about.

I'm perfectly happy with a 60-100 mile range and 100mph top speed...
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Gavin on May 11, 2011, 09:52:14 AM
Good point...You also don't want a ton of different models, but really having a single speed bike is a selling point for some. Gets Brammo some new riders (which I thought was one of their priorities) ...gets more scooter riders to move up to a motorcycle maybe, adds more female riders, more older riders...Americans tend not to like shifting in cars, some won't like shifting on bikes.

Me? I could go either way....my car is a stick, one scooter is a shifty, one a cvt...so i'm fine either way...I will say that my scooter shifty is different than a motorcycle shifty (all in the left hand) so I have actually never ridden where I shift with my foot...I'm sure I could learn pretty fast, though I've always loved the simplicity of the Vespa shifty...pull clutch and twist hand.

How to shift gears on a Vespa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSVMU4D_sw#)

But having options is good.

That said, Brammo will have to weigh the benefits and downsides and come up to their own conclusion. More options could be good, but too many models could be bad??

I imagine the Enertia and Plus will always have a single speed option, maybe a clutch, maybe not. The Engage and Encite might only be shifty...the Empulse probably should have both??? who knows...but simple is often best, less parts to break is often best...though the gear heads won't mind a tranny that breaks now and then...gives them a reason to get the hands greasy.

Gavin


ps...and I still think it behooves Brammo to get bikes out now/soon. I know they plan to make some big changes and they don't want to get this years riders mad...but they could sell some now and still make big changes....just spell it out to deposit holders. "Hey Brammo fans (no, not Brammofan), we are making some big changes...we think for the better. So we plan to delay the Empulse to 2012. Next years bike will have a 6 speed transmission and have more speed and longer range. We think it is an amazing bike you will love. That said, if you don't want a 6 speed tranny and prefer a single speed, non shifty sports bike, well have we got the bike for you. We will sell the Empulse 2011 this year as a single speed bike. You get to choose. A great bike now that if fast and fun with one gear, or a great bike in a year that shifts."
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: theentropykid on May 11, 2011, 10:02:37 AM
I don't know much about transmissions on electric motors (haven't looked into the Tesla specs) but I kinda agree with Shinchan. Mo' mechanics = mo' problems. I think I'd rather have the simplicity of the current model with 100 mph/ 100 mile distance than squeeze out another 20 miles and a lot more moving parts. But hey, in Brammo we trust!
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 11, 2011, 10:38:58 AM
You can add me to the list of people who could be very happy with a single-speed Empulse. I don't need to accelerate hard or go really fast. For me a real-world 80 mile range, with a top speed of 80 mph would be perfect for my use. Having enough acceleration to keep up with most autos is also good enough for me. I'll take the simple single-speed version and let the sport riders wait for the better performing 6-speed model. I use my motorcycles mostly for transportation and not for thrills.

I also agree that it is tough enough to get a new vehicle with new technology on the road and reliable, without adding the additional complexity of a untested (in the hands of the public) transmission and clutch system. Both transmissions and clutches have a long history of failures and it has taken a long time to prefect them. A few years ago even BMW had problems with their transmissions, which caused them to go to another manufacturer for a redesign and a replacement. These things can be a headache.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: 1lesscar on May 11, 2011, 08:17:34 PM
BUT, the manual trans will help with range, hill climbing, and battery life.  :-*

And believe me, the extra acceleration may save your life when cars try to kill you.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(


Motorcycles riders are unlikely to "walk away" from accidents.   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

 If I can move out of the way faster and avoid a car I will do that.  >:(





You can add me to the list of people who could be very happy with a single-speed Empulse. I don't need to accelerate hard or go really fast. For me a real-world 80 mile range, with a top speed of 80 mph would be perfect for my use. Having enough acceleration to keep up with most autos is also good enough for me. I'll take the simple single-speed version and let the sport riders wait for the better performing 6-speed model. I use my motorcycles mostly for transportation and not for thrills.

I also agree that it is tough enough to get a new vehicle with new technology on the road and reliable, without adding the additional complexity of a untested (in the hands of the public) transmission and clutch system. Both transmissions and clutches have a long history of failures and it has taken a long time to prefect them. A few years ago even BMW had problems with their transmissions, which caused them to go to another manufacturer for a redesign and a replacement. These things can be a headache.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 14, 2011, 08:20:37 PM
As I was walking past the Brammo tent at the Infineon Racetrack today, Craig Bramscher came up to me and said "hello". We had a very pleasant conversation for 5 minutes, mostly about the future of the Empulse (well I did sort of steer the conversation in that direction). Craig is clearly very enthusiastic about Brammo's new 6-speed gearbox technology. He said that it would give the Empulse substantially improved acceleration and performance, compared to a single-speed drive. I am pretty sure that you can expect the Empulse to have this new gearbox system when it hits the market.

Thinking further about the revised Empulse, I can see how it will vault the Brammo past all other (that we know of) production electric motorcycles when it comes to quarter-mile performance - and that is what the sportbike market is focused upon - and has been for just about forever. Right now the motorcycle magazines hardly mention the acceleration performance of electric motorcycles due to their slow speed up to 30 mph, or so. If the 6-speed Empulse can rack up some quarter mile times comparable to current IC sportbikes, it could be a game changer for the EV industry. Craig Bramscher has high hopes that the Empulse will become the "motorcycle of the year" when it arrives on the showroom floor.

Unfortunately, until that happens, it looks like we will just have to wait a little longer to get our hands on one.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: EmpulseRider on May 14, 2011, 09:54:56 PM
As I was walking past the Brammo tent at the Infineon Racetrack today, Craig Bramscher came up to me and said "hello". We had a very pleasant conversation for 5 minutes, mostly about the future of the Empulse (well I did sort of steer the conversation in that direction). Craig is clearly very enthusiastic about Brammo's new 6-speed gearbox technology. He said that it would give the Empulse substantially improved acceleration and performance, compared to a single-speed drive. I am pretty sure that you can expect the Empulse to have this new gearbox system when it hits the market.

Thinking further about the revised Empulse, I can see how it will vault the Brammo past all other (that we know of) production electric motorcycles when it comes to quarter-mile performance - and that is what the sportbike market is focused upon - and has been for just about forever. Right now the motorcycle magazines hardly mention the acceleration performance of electric motorcycles due to their slow speed up to 30 mph, or so. If the 6-speed Empulse can rack up some quarter mile times comparable to current IC sportbikes, it could be a game changer for the EV industry. Craig Bramscher has high hopes that the Empulse will become the "motorcycle of the year" when it arrives on the showroom floor.

Unfortunately, until that happens, it looks like we will just have to wait a little longer to get our hands on one.

Good stuff! I am a little bummed that we have to wait until next year, but I realize its for a good reason. The Empulse will put electric motorcycles (and Brammo) on the map in a big way. The Empulse will go nicely with my Ford Focus EV :).
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: 1lesscar on May 15, 2011, 01:54:12 AM

 :-\ I hope Brammo will keep me updated with info. It is the only thing that will keep me from spending my money on another gas burner.  :P





As I was walking past the Brammo tent at the Infineon Racetrack today, Craig Bramscher came up to me and said "hello". We had a very pleasant conversation for 5 minutes, mostly about the future of the Empulse (well I did sort of steer the conversation in that direction). Craig is clearly very enthusiastic about Brammo's new 6-speed gearbox technology. He said that it would give the Empulse substantially improved acceleration and performance, compared to a single-speed drive. I am pretty sure that you can expect the Empulse to have this new gearbox system when it hits the market.

Thinking further about the revised Empulse, I can see how it will vault the Brammo past all other (that we know of) production electric motorcycles when it comes to quarter-mile performance - and that is what the sportbike market is focused upon - and has been for just about forever. Right now the motorcycle magazines hardly mention the acceleration performance of electric motorcycles due to their slow speed up to 30 mph, or so. If the 6-speed Empulse can rack up some quarter mile times comparable to current IC sportbikes, it could be a game changer for the EV industry. Craig Bramscher has high hopes that the Empulse will become the "motorcycle of the year" when it arrives on the showroom floor.

Unfortunately, until that happens, it looks like we will just have to wait a little longer to get our hands on one.

Good stuff! I am a little bummed that we have to wait until next year, but I realize its for a good reason. The Empulse will put electric motorcycles (and Brammo) on the map in a big way. The Empulse will go nicely with my Ford Focus EV :).
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: oobflyer on May 15, 2011, 09:54:30 PM
The advantage will be to take advantage of more of the powerband of the electric motor. Even though an electric motor has a much wider powerband than an ICE engine, it can still benefit from gearing down for acceleration and gearing up for cruising speeds.

I'm betting that the transmission will be a 5-speed.
Title: Re: Possible 6 speed for the Empulse!
Post by: Richard230 on May 16, 2011, 10:08:43 AM
I wonder if the real advantage of the transmission for Brammo will be the potential for reducing the size and cost of the motor, thereby reducing heat and weight and improving efficiency - while maintaining the performance design envelope of the motorcycle.