Brammo Owners Forum
Brammo Empulse Discussion => Brammo Empulse => Topic started by: Gavin on October 24, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
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'Nuff Said
Gavin
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Its on like donkey kong! I wonder if its show and tell or they are offering demos. Very exciting!
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Don't know...but I bet locals can call Scuderia and find out...
I bet they (James) heads down to LA after San Fran...
People in the LA area could call Bartley's Harley and see when Brammo will be there.
Gavin
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The email I got states this is NOT an "open demo" day.
Friday will be for staff rides and public viewing. So it's come "SEE" for yourself, not "RIDE" for yourself invitation.
It's a chance for those with deposits to get rides first, followed, with any available time, the folks who have been waiting to ride it before committing.
I plan to be there and will report back. Very exciting!
Later on, they will have a demo bike, I'm fairly certain.
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what about saturday?
Gavin
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Saturday is the day for depositor + possibly other demo rides. Friday is the day for staff rides. They mention that if you are interested in dropping by on Friday to do so later in the afternoon, but I think that is more for "being able to see the bikes" rather than actually being able to ride at that time. The bikes will likely be out of juice after some extended staff demo rides.
I wonder how they will keep them charged for an entire day of Saturday demos - perhaps a portable J1772 charging system in their van combined with a lengthy "orientation"? Or perhaps they might have a proprietary DC direct charge system on the demos for high turn-around days?
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I stopped by today and got to see all 3 colors of the Empulse R and they are BEAUTIFUL: much better than the photos! Fit and finish excellent.
Got to throw a leg over one and the bars are perfect for me, just slightly leaning forward with no significant weight on my arthritic hands. The fold in the knee wasn't extreme. Everything felt neutral and balanced and I was ready to go!
Chatted with the reps for while who said dealer interest is keen.
I watched 3 folks take off on the bikes for a test ride, following a rep on a gasser, up to Twin Peaks and back to Scuderia. Loved the whine of the motors revving in neutral... might even be noticeable enough to get the attention of pedestrians in a near-by cross walk. As they took off, sort of a muted, pleasant, jet-fighter effect. Way cool. A BMW 1150R pulled up and sounded so, you know, 20th century!
Today was indeed for shop personnel and I'm glad I'm getting a ride tomorrow, as the traffic should be way less than Friday night rush hour.
But I DID get to see 'em and they're definitely real and definitely here. Briefly.
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Congrats...yeah, at SECA when I was showing the Empulse everybody was hella impressed with the fit and finish and that it "is a real motorcycle"
Gavin
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I stopped by today and got to see all 3 colors of the Empulse R and they are BEAUTIFUL: much better than the photos! Fit and finish excellent.
Got to throw a leg over one and the bars are perfect for me, just slightly leaning forward with no significant weight on my arthritic hands. The fold in the knee wasn't extreme. Everything felt neutral and balanced and I was ready to go!
Chatted with the reps for while who said dealer interest is keen.
I watched 3 folks take off on the bikes for a test ride, following a rep on a gasser, up to Twin Peaks and back to Scuderia. Loved the whine of the motors revving in neutral... might even be noticeable enough to get the attention of pedestrians in a near-by cross walk. As they took off, sort of a muted, pleasant, jet-fighter effect. Way cool. A BMW 1150R pulled up and sounded so, you know, 20th century!
Today was indeed for shop personnel and I'm glad I'm getting a ride tomorrow, as the traffic should be way less than Friday night rush hour.
But I DID get to see 'em and they're definitely real and definitely here. Briefly.
Thats awesome. Do you know where the bikes are heading after they ar done there? This is the road tour we have been hearing about right? Does anyone know when they are going to announce the new dealer locations, I think there is supposed to be one here in Colorado, I just dont know which one.
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Do you know where the bikes are heading after they ar done there? This is the road tour we have been hearing about right? Does anyone know when they are going to announce the new dealer locations, I think there is supposed to be one here in Colorado, I just dont know which one.
I talked to staff members and they said the itinerary hasn't been made public because this is a DEALER tour, and, with only 3 bikes, they can't handle the general public's interest in test rides.
This board is probably our best source of information.
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Yep...
On other option would be to follow James Richards on Facebook
He posts about where he is, and sometimes about where he is going...
All I know is South, then East
I assume LA (bartleys Harley) then San Diego?, then Phoenix??
I hope maybe Albuquerque someday, but I bet we are kinda low on the list
G
edit...plus if James shows up in Albuquerque with 3 bikes he will probably leave with only 2.....
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Scuderia is putting up images on Facebook
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/527284_514711325208200_240605619_n.jpg)
Gavin
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(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534680_514548681891131_603349585_n.jpg)
more
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(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/534700_514548488557817_65555537_n.jpg)
g
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Shinysideup keeps the rubber side down!
The bikes were fresh off the chargers and looked stunning. Yes, they have the orange power wires coming out of the motor, but somehow they aren't nearly so noticeable on the real bikes as they are in the photos. The eye is just too busy taking in all the other 3-dimensional goodness, I guess.
Great, spirited test ride on sunny afternoon with slightly cool air in sparkling San Francisco. Charging through the fast sweepers of upper Market St., then turn right onto the "back"(south) side entrance to Twin Peaks, past the tourist lookout point, and down the north side and back to the shop.
Flar and I met there and chatted with James and Jake from Brammo. Jake lead our group of three on the ride. I noticed that when we were sitting utterly silent behind him at traffic lights, his gasser sounded SO primitive. I mean, really, how gauche!
BTW, Flar and I were totally outridden by this young beautiful female employee of Scuderia West. In all fairness, she was a 1/3 the weight we were and rides the course every day to and from work on an Enertia. Plus she WAS riding the all black bike which we know is the fastest! Truthfully, she was just a more aggressive and confident rider than I. I figured that if she could throw this puppy into turns, then so could I, dammit! So I ALMOST kept up with her.
First impressions of the ride:
Seating position (6'1", 31" inseam) was very neutral with slight weight on the hands and a knee bend I could live with, though I suggested to Jake that they consider offering a peg-lowering kit for us old farts. I don't think I'd want to bring the bars back at all, since I won't be doing long-distance touring on this bike. The seat was comfortable enough, but of course our ride was short.
The shocks were excellent, soaking up San Francisco's infamous potholes, yet feeling well-planted in the twisties. They definitely felt set up on the "sport" side of things, as compared to the "cushy" ride of, say, a big Honda. The frame felt rock solid and I do believe they've got the geometry dialed in.
The bike does feel noticeably heavy as you lean it over a bit, but that disappears quickly once underway. Very sure feeling in the turns, though obviously heavier to flick that the TMax scooter that's been my ride for the last year. In all fairness. the TMax has a 500cc parallel twin flat on the ground and is one of the most flickable rides I've ever been on. I'd say the Empulse's handling slightly exceeded my BMW R1200R with Wilbur shocks, which is high praise indeed.
WOW, the acceleration with strong torque on tap, absolutely anywhere, is a surprising thrill, especially after riding the 2012 Zero bike a few months ago. Love that whine to go with it. It really did exceed my expectations. In absolute 0-60 terms, maybe not terribly impressive (though fast enough for me), but the actual EXPERIENCE of that straight-line torque curve got my blood pumping during a couple of times of full-right-wrist-twist.
Although, as we all know, a relatively quiet bike, the motor and drive train produced more whine in a pleasing visceral sort of way than the almost totally quiet Zero, even at low speeds. Nothing objectionable at all, and kinda cool on take-off.
I felt some pronounced lash in the drive train. Would take me a few days' worth of riding to finesse my throttle control. But again, I'm coming fresh off an auto CV tranny, and not my R1200R shafty with the famous ker-CHUNK gear box.
Regen in first gear (good up to 60 mph) is VERY pronounced which is just perfect for my San Francisco hills. I barely needed to use the brakes in ordinary traffic. Matter of fact, lacking refined throttle control on this bike, I found 1st-gear regen a bit much on the flats, and found I preferred to ride all the time in 2nd gear in the urban areas. I also tried starting off in 3rd which the motor handled just fine thank you. Noticeably less acceleration had me going back to 2nd, however for the rest of the ride. I would use first pretty much only for hole-shot situations and for braking on our very steepest hills. Gears 4,5,6 I'd guess would be for the freeway. The tranny shifted smoothly and surely, though my foot couldn't feel the click as clearly as on some bikes I've ridden. The gear-shift indicator on the dash seemed to lag a moment with each shift.
Speaking of brakes, the Brembos up front does the job with one finger. I had to grab it fairly hard as a light changed on us at about 50 mph, and all the stopping had total progressive certainty and right now.
Don, the owner of Scuderia West, along with Jake and James interviewed us after the ride for a brief chat out on the sidewalk to get our impressions. All 3 riders had big grins. Many thanks to Brammo, Jake, James, and Don for a great experience.
Summary: I want this bike! Now!
PS: My wife came along (not on the Empulse ride) and even agreed with my choice of the white color scheme. How lucky can I get? How much confirmation do I need, to know that I need to buy this bike right now?!
Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/8129386374/#sizes/c/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/8129386374/#sizes/c/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/8129386182/#sizes/h/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/8129386182/#sizes/h/)
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Shinyside summed it all up pretty well.
I'll note that I was in for quite a shock on the peg height, but that is *only* because I've grown accustomed to my R1200RT following my F650 - both of which have pretty nearly 90 degree knee positions. That, coupled with my sedentary lifestyle made it an unfamiliar action to get my legs up, but I was used to it by the 3rd stoplight. If you are more familiar with a japanese sporty standard then it should be just what you are used to.
In terms of low speed stability, I was able to keep my feet on the pegs to well under a walking pace at the lights with no wobble at all (compared to my RT which, after a few hundred miles experience, I find to be very good at low speeds, but still needs a few adjustments as I get down to walking pace).
I lagged a bit on the twisty bits up to Twin Peaks primarily because the road surface is fairly rough there and I weigh over 50% more than the standard rider that they've been testing with. The suspension may be very adjustable, but we didn't adjust it before we took off. When we went over ripples I didn't feel I could trust the traction at all and I was definitely getting shaken, not stirred. Don at the shop said that it would likely require new springs to really perform well for someone of my size. (Does this bike make me look fat? ;)
The primary issue I had with low speeds was not throttle control but rather regen control. I didn't find the regen in 1st gear to be "too much" per se, but it was very touchy and kicks in very suddenly when the throttle gets to home position. The throttle was also very light so I found that sometimes when I was rolling to a stop I would kick in and out of regen just by shifting about and not paying attention to wrist position. I would love to have a reverse twist position to manually invoke regen (possibly with a very light regen at neutral for familiarity). Perhaps adjusting the regen throttle position cutoff point to allow some wiggle room and maybe having slightly more spring force at the home position may make it less touchy. I did try second gear for a bit, but didn't really evaluate the regen in that gear. I figured I'd stay in 1st for efficiency (since it's good to 60MPH and not likely to hit the knee of the efficiency curve in city riding).
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Very nice reviews fellas... I find real world, regular guy reviews the most helpful as they tend to give me a much better idea of what to expect. BTW, the white R looks good on you Shinysideup! My wife and I also prefer the white Empulse.
The pictures picture Brammo is posting on facebook of the event look absolutely stunning!
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Great review! My only problem is the orange wires, I just don't like that at all... I hope that when I receive my bike that those wires are black.
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(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/60778_514591471886852_954843207_n.jpg)
from Brammo's Facebook...
Gavin
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I can understand Brammo going with the orange cables if they are needed in Europe...might as well do the US model that way too...simplifies the production process...
At the same time, if it is not a regulation here, if I get a Empulse I might wrap the orange wires in that Black reflective tape...would look better in the daytime and would add side visibility at night.
Gavin
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... I might wrap the orange wires in that Black reflective tape...would look better in the daytime and would add side visibility at night.
Or you could just slip on some Radio Shack wire loom tubing. I did that to corral the small wires on an electric bike I made, and the corrugated tubing looks good, to my eyes.
Comes in several diameters. 3/4" size is RS Catalog #: 278-1654
Here's a shot of some 1/2" coming to a driving lamp:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/1527660080/#sizes/o/in/set-72157601652381698/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/10852133@N02/1527660080/#sizes/o/in/set-72157601652381698/)
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I can understand Brammo going with the orange cables if they are needed in Europe...might as well do the US model that way too...simplifies the production process...
See bullet 23 here. This is more of a guidelines, but it may have been adopted later. SAE J1127 and J1128 specify the orange coding for the higher voltage cables - my 2000 Honda Insight uses orange sheathing for the motor cables.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/hev/hev_techspecs_final.pdf (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/hev/hev_techspecs_final.pdf)
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I would love to have a reverse twist position to manually invoke regen (possibly with a very light regen at neutral for familiarity).
I very much like this idea. I believe the Vectrix scooter has this feature and from when I first heard about it a couple of years ago, it made good sense. If we can modulate the throttle for "Go" why not for "Stop"?
Another variation: instead of coming back to neutral and rolling on more regen, have the computer invoke zero regen when barely rolling back on the throttle, and then exponentially increasing regen as you roll back to neutral throttle position. That way, you could choose to coast freewheel when that would make sense, and then capture electrons when you knew you needed to decelerate.
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See bullet 23 here.
Yep, found it in section 7.1 on page 21 from the pdf you link to.
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I very much like this idea. I believe the Vectrix scooter has this feature and from when I first heard about it a couple of years ago, it made good sense. If we can modulate the throttle for "Go" why not for "Stop"?
The Vectrix throttle is indeed superior. I own one so maybe I am biased. It also allows a low speed reverse when you roll back after you come to a full stop which I use often as it makes parking the bike in my backyard easy.
Unfortunately they patented the throttle so we wont see it on other bikes I am afraid. Maybe when the patent expires it will appear on more bikes...
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The Vectrix throttle is indeed superior. I own one so maybe I am biased. It also allows a low speed reverse when you roll back after you come to a full stop which I use often as it makes parking the bike in my backyard easy.
Unfortunately they patented the throttle so we wont see it on other bikes I am afraid. Maybe when the patent expires it will appear on more bikes...
I'm curious which parts they patented. BMW bikes have used a reverse twist to cancel cruise control for years now (which, never having been near a Vectrix, was where I got the idea from). In terms of physical sensation, it's pretty much the same experience. Vectrix might patent a different mechanism for achieving the goal, but patenting the concept of "braking forces when reverse twisting a throttle" would have prior art.
And, while I would like to see a reverse function, I don't think I'd want it to happen simply because I pushed the throttle the wrong way.
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I read a report a few years ago that said the BMW had licensed the Vectrix power train when they developed their C-1 EV prototype scooter. I wonder if they still have that license or have let it expire as they continue to work on their current maxi (and not roofed) electric scooter?
I agree that the Vectrix throttle system is a superior way to deal with regen and its ability to act as a reverse is really handy when parking on a hill. :)
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I agree that the Vectrix throttle system is a superior way to deal with regen and its ability to act as a reverse is really handy when parking on a hill. :)
James from Brammo yesterday said that being in San Francisco made him rethink the need for a parking brake, like my scooter has. I find it really handy on steep hills and for temporarily holding the bike when I need both hands for a task while parked on a hill.
I've been thinking of some solution to grab and clamp the front brake lever... maybe a ring made out of PVC pipe just the right diameter. Stowing it would probably require a tank bag, however. Or a cross-section from a bicycle inner tube to act as a strong rubber band... or....
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What I use is a Velcro-type strap that I bought at the hardware store. They come in a roll and can be cut to any length. The straps are used to tie plants to supporting sticks when planting a new tree of bush. I carry it in my pocket and another one in my seat pack and use it to hold the front brake closed. That solution is cheap, light and fully adjustable. My Zero will roll down a steep hill if not constrained. The motor provides some drag and the side stand does dig into the pavement, but the extra security of a locked front brake is well worth the peace of mind as you walk away from your bike.
Anyone care to comment about what it is like to have a clutch on an electric motorcycle? You would think that using a clutch would not be needed for starting. Just put it in gear and take off with the throttle. Shifting between gears could be accomplished by employing a "quick shifter" if there is a need for accommodating the change in motor speed between gears. Or some other method of disengaging the clutch (like the mechanical system the1950's Jawa motorcycles used) when the shift is made could be employed. Also, is there much of a "flywheel" effect from the motor and drive-line when reving up with the clutch pulled in? When Scuderia gets a demonstrator in, I will have to go for a test ride, as much as I hate to ride anywhere in SF.
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Anyone care to comment about what it is like to have a clutch on an electric motorcycle? You would think that using a clutch would not be needed for starting. Just put it in gear and take off with the throttle. Shifting between gears could be accomplished by employing a "quick shifter" if there is a need for accommodating the change in motor speed between gears. Or some other method of disengaging the clutch (like the mechanical system the1950's Jawa motorcycles used) when the shift is made could be employed. Also, is there much of a "flywheel" effect from the motor and drive-line when reving up with the clutch pulled in? When Scuderia gets a demonstrator in, I will have to go for a test ride, as much as I hate to ride anywhere in SF.
Yep, don't need the clutch at all when stopping or starting. Didn't try speed-shifting the demo. There is NO flywheel effect, just a cool high-pitched whine while revving in neutral or with the clutch lever pulled in. Not good for anything other than letting bystanders "hear the motor." I didn't detect any concern about matching motor speed when downshifting, which I didn't do much of. Everything just seemed to work smoothly enough.
I ride in SF 5 days a week, on the job, all day long, and I gotta agree with your assessment.
Velcro works for me. Thanks for the tip.
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After last week's race, and interviewing him for a second time due to a technical boo-boo that morning, I got to chat with Steve Atlas. We talked quite a bit about the Empulse and I asked specifically about the clutch. He said clutchless upshifts were no problem. He actually had to think about when he used the clutch, and said only on the downshifts did he find himself using it. He also said it was pretty much his 2011 race bike, and that he felt it was faster than a 650cc twin, but not as fast as a 600cc 4-cylinder. But that the handling was at least least as good as either kind of bike. He said couldn't wait for his. He really liked the Empulse.
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Oh, and I shamelessly "stole" these reviews. http://esbk.co/2012/10/29/first-hand-account-of-an-empulse-test-ride-via-brammoforums-com/ (http://esbk.co/2012/10/29/first-hand-account-of-an-empulse-test-ride-via-brammoforums-com/)
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Oh, and I shamelessly "stole" these reviews. http://esbk.co/2012/10/29/first-hand-account-of-an-empulse-test-ride-via-brammoforums-com/ (http://esbk.co/2012/10/29/first-hand-account-of-an-empulse-test-ride-via-brammoforums-com/)
No shame at all. As long as you link back, steal away.
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Says quite a bit that he sold his Enertia but can't wait for the Empulse.
I think we'll see both the Empulse and the 2013 Zero S putting in race laptimes very close to the 650cc bikes, at least until the straights where their top speed limitations come into play. My GS500 could hit ~110 with 40 hp, so it seems like the Empulse should be able to do a bit better than 100 mph..
Will be interesting to see if electric bikes with 50 hp can beat gas bikes with 80 peak hp..
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Electric motorcycles seem to have a lot more torque for the same horsepower, compared with IC motorcycles. It will be interesting to see how they perform against IC motorcycles with similar HP, but less torque and how they perform compared with IC motorcycles with similar torque and less HP. From my experience, I think that the greater torque and wider power range is a much better combination for street riding, whereas peak power may be more useful on a track with long straight-a-ways. However, an electric motorcycle should be able to clean up on a small tight track with a lot of curves as they should be able to get out of corners really quickly.
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Electric motorcycles seem to have a lot more torque for the same horsepower, compared with IC motorcycles.
Motor torque is meaningless without an RPM qualifier.
A motor that revs to 12k RPM and has a perfectly flat 30 ft-lb torque curve is EXACTLY the same powerband as a motor that revs to 6k RPM and has a perfectly flat 60 ft-lb torque curve, and is just geared for half as many turns.
In the case of electric motorcycles, they have much higher torque for the same power because the peak power RPM is much lower.
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Another image up on Brammo's Facebook...from the Touring Van...
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/320350_506586349359887_838193755_n.jpg)
If James comes through Albuquerque he better hide that one...If it comes out of the Van it won't be going back in :)
Gavin
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If James comes through Albuquerque he better hide that one...If it comes out of the Van it won't be going back in :)
No doubt, I'm completely sold on white now.
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If James comes through Albuquerque he better hide that one...If it comes out of the Van it won't be going back in :)
No doubt, I'm completely sold on white now.
Me too... Im thinking of getting a phone to match, white iPhone or white RAZR-M... decisions, decisions.
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Setting aside the fact that I'd be perfectly happy with any color Empulse if any of them were parked in my garage right now, I'm still up in the air on which color I like the best.
Is the white part painted white, or is it white colored plastic? I have had bad luck with white colored plastic yellowing in the sun in the past (not that I have any inside knowledge that this plastic would yellow just because it's happened to me in the past). I definitely like that color, but I tend to keep things for a long time.
I originally thought I'd want the red. But if it has big orange wires, I'm thinking red wouldn't look as good as it would with black wires.
Has Brammo gotten rid of the color matching patches on the seat for the non-R model? I think that is a good change. It is really hard to keep a good color match on completely different materials. Especially as they age. At one point I decided I wanted the black, because I liked the all black seat compared to the color matched seat patches. But if they aren't doing that, then that isn't a factor anymore.
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There is a drawback to racing electric bikes and that is the lack of engine braking. ICE bikes will be able to come into the corners faster and brake later than the Empulse...especially a lighter bike. Coming out of the corners onto the straightaway is where Empulse should do well. The Empulse specs indicate it would go head to head with the new Ninja 300. The 300 should be able to pass the Empulse coming into corners using later braking, but the Empulse should then regain the lead coming out of the corner using higher torque. Then on the straightaway they should be equal.
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Is the white part painted white, or is it white colored plastic? I have had bad luck with white colored plastic yellowing in the sun in the past (not that I have any inside knowledge that this plastic would yellow just because it's happened to me in the past). I definitely like that color, but I tend to keep things for a long time.
Has Brammo gotten rid of the color matching patches on the seat for the non-R model? I think that is a good change. It is really hard to keep a good color match on completely different materials. Especially as they age. At one point I decided I wanted the black, because I liked the all black seat compared to the color matched seat patches. But if they aren't doing that, then that isn't a factor anymore.
All of the body panels are painted with an automotive grade paint and clear coat. The colors will not yellow in sunlight. They also have a very subtle, but nice (IMHO) pearlescence or shimmer to them in real life, even the black. The finish is top notch. Even the matte black parts are painted for a more even, durable, and better aesthetic finish deserving of a $18k bike.
The seat on the white and black Empulse and Empulse R have a small grey insert at the back on the side of the "passenger" portion of the seat. The red Empulse and Empulse R have this panel in a very nicely matched red. For the record, our "red" is much more of a red/orange and quite vibrant in real life. The red you'll find on Ducatis and Hondas tend to be more of a crimson or "blood" red.
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There is a drawback to racing electric bikes and that is the lack of engine braking. ICE bikes will be able to come into the corners faster and brake later than the Empulse...especially a lighter bike. Coming out of the corners onto the straightaway is where Empulse should do well. The Empulse specs indicate it would go head to head with the new Ninja 300. The 300 should be able to pass the Empulse coming into corners using later braking, but the Empulse should then regain the lead coming out of the corner using higher torque. Then on the straightaway they should be equal.
Where have you been recently? The Empulse has a very noticeable amount of off-throttle regen or "engine braking". You can trail brake and rail the bike into a corner harder than most gas bikes I've ridden. Definitely harder than a Triumph Street Triple R. Having ridden multiple bikes to benchmark the performance of the Empulse and Empulse R, I don't think the new Ninja 300 would stand a chance. Sounds like we need to film some shoot-out videos... sweet!;)
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Now that I am looking forward to.... :)
With racing season over*, lots of time to ride and record shoot outs and comparison videos. If the weather is too nasty in Oregon this time of year, I volunteer Albuquerque....It is a beautiful time of year for riding hard...
Gavin
*and yes I know racing season is never really over...I'm sure Brammo is already making adjustments and changes to the RR
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There is a drawback to racing electric bikes and that is the lack of engine braking. ICE bikes will be able to come into the corners faster and brake later than the Empulse...especially a lighter bike. Coming out of the corners onto the straightaway is where Empulse should do well. The Empulse specs indicate it would go head to head with the new Ninja 300. The 300 should be able to pass the Empulse coming into corners using later braking, but the Empulse should then regain the lead coming out of the corner using higher torque. Then on the straightaway they should be equal.
Ninja 300? NO WAY. The Empulse is more in the class of the Ninja 650 in terms of performance.
2012 Ninja 650:
Claimed HP: 72HP
Claimed Torque: 47.2 lbs/ft
Curb Weight: 461 lbs
Empulse:
Claimed HP: 54HP
Claimed Torque: 46.5 lbs/ft
Curb Weight: 470 lbs
Power delivery is much more linear on the Empulse. I would put money on the Empulse in the twisties against the 650. Another advantage of the Empulse, at least here in Colorado, zero performance loss due to thinner air.
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All of the body panels are painted with an automotive grade paint and clear coat. The colors will not yellow in sunlight. They also have a very subtle, but nice (IMHO) pearlescence or shimmer to them in real life, even the black. The finish is top notch. Even the matte black parts are painted for a more even, durable, and better aesthetic finish deserving of a $18k bike.
One of my chief complaints about my Zero - it doesn't feel like a $14k bike. The 2013s are reportedly a step up in fit & finish, but I doubt it's close.
Where have you been recently? The Empulse has a very noticeable amount of off-throttle regen or "engine braking". You can trail brake and rail the bike into a corner harder than most gas bikes I've ridden. Definitely harder than a Triumph Street Triple R. Having ridden multiple bikes to benchmark the performance of the Empulse and Empulse R, I don't think the new Ninja 300 would stand a chance. Sounds like we need to film some shoot-out videos... sweet!;)
I'd love to see some comparison videos.
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There is a drawback to racing electric bikes and that is the lack of engine braking. ICE bikes will be able to come into the corners faster and brake later than the Empulse...especially a lighter bike. Coming out of the corners onto the straightaway is where Empulse should do well. The Empulse specs indicate it would go head to head with the new Ninja 300. The 300 should be able to pass the Empulse coming into corners using later braking, but the Empulse should then regain the lead coming out of the corner using higher torque. Then on the straightaway they should be equal.
Ninja 300? NO WAY. The Empulse is more in the class of the Ninja 650 in terms of performance.
2012 Ninja 650:
Claimed HP: 72HP
Claimed Torque: 47.2 lbs/ft
Curb Weight: 461 lbs
Empulse:
Claimed HP: 54HP
Claimed Torque: 46.5 lbs/ft
Curb Weight: 470 lbs
Power delivery is much more linear on the Empulse. I would put money on the Empulse in the twisties against the 650. Another advantage of the Empulse, at least here in Colorado, zero performance loss due to thinner air.
In the twisties? Yeah, I don't doubt the Empulse would walk handily away.
Ninja 650: 0-60 3.99s, 124 mph top speed (per MCN (http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/2012MarchKaw650.pdf) pdf).
Ninja 300: 0-60 ~6s, 105 mph GPS top speed (various online forums)
If the Empulse is truly limited to 100 mph, then either the cooling system is pretty disappointing and it can hold 40 kW for only a short time, or it's RPM limited in sixth gear at 100 mph. Shinysideup indicated 1st gear was good for 60 mph .. that's a very narrow spread for gearing.
I would be surprised if a little more than 100 mph wasn't available.
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I was under the impression that all the advertising was for 100+ MPH. I guess I had been thinking that was a figure thrown deliberately low so that the 400lbs guys don't get mad when the bike only does 80 uphill with them on it.
Also, it's pretty easy to limit top speed on an electric vehicle while still having the capability to go a lot faster. eg. P510 FLA = X-10%
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BrammoBrian, you do know that we will be asking every other day for these videos....ok...everyday...ok...probably a few times a day...
:)
Gavin
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I doubt Brammo will be too quick to put a stock Empulse r in competition with either the stock Ninja 650r, the Ninja 300, or any other ICE bikes for that matter. Personally, between an Empulse r and a Ninja 250r (both stock), I would put my money on the Ninja....until proven otherwise. Comeon Brammo, you have to walk the walk.
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I doubt Brammo will be too quick to put a stock Empulse r in competition with either the stock Ninja 650r, the Ninja 300, or any other ICE bikes for that matter. Personally, between an Empulse r and a Ninja 250r (both stock), I would put my money on the Ninja....until proven otherwise. Comeon Brammo, you have to walk the walk.
Wow, now you're saying the 250R would best the Empulse... Hmm, not sure where you are coming from considering the available reviews from Wes Siler among others, and the spec sheet for each bike, but we can always agree to disagree. :)
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Wow, now you're saying the 250R would best the Empulse... Hmm, not sure where you are coming from considering the available reviews from Wes Siler among others, and the spec sheet for each bike, but we can always agree to disagree. :)
No! No agreeing to disagree! I'm with Gavin on this one: we want videos! We want videos!
C'mon! Nothing will make a better statement for electrics than having an Empulse leaving some ICEs behind. I would say "smoke them," but that's ICE talk. Maybe just zap them...
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I owned a 2003 250 Ninja for several years, before I gave it to my daughter who still has it. Compared with my 2012 Zero it is much faster off the line, especially if you spin the motor up before releasing the clutch, but would get left in the dust during a 5th or 6th gear roll-on between 40 and 70 mph, in my opinion. The Ninja makes pretty good power for its size, but you really have to spin it between 8K and 12K rpm to get that power. With the Zero, the power is there instantly with just a twist of the throttle.
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Huh... There is a "Brammovangelist" under my nickname...
Do I get a free Empulse, too???? :o
Yeah... right... you need to be on the list to get prizes... :-\
Well, whenever anyone gets interested in getting the new, new Empulse and wants to get rid of their old one... you know where to find me.
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Personally, between an Empulse r and a Ninja 250r (both stock), I would put my money on the Ninja....until proven otherwise. Comeon Brammo, you have to walk the walk.
What kind of a wager is it if you have to see the proof first? : )
@ DSN: Brammovangelist is just a title based on postcount. Note that if you sort the brammoforum by post count (http://brammoforum.com/index.php?action=mlist;sort=posts;start=0), you get this:
Brammofan, 2054 posts // Brammovangelist v1.0, given an Enertia
Gavin, 1898 posts // Brammovangelist v2.0alpha, loaned Enertia and then Enertia Plus test bike
protomech, 1169 posts // bought a Zero, burn the heretic!
Richard230, 825 posts // bought a Zero, burn the heretic!
EmpulseBuyer, 641 posts // Brammovangelist v2.0, given an Empulse R
This is more correlation than causation, but FreepZ is next up on the list..
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Yeah, I know. I just thought you get the moniker after 500 posts.
... and asking for free stuff, especially an $18k electric motorcycle that can kick some ninja's butt, is never wasted effort. ;D
We still need those videos... That would make for a nice winter posting. A series we can call "Empulse versus ICE."
Every week someone would post a clip of an Empulse against some ICE bike. And we all should get a piece of the action against AJ Nin. Even I, know a Ninja 250 can't beat the Empulse. The new Ninja 300 would have a significant weight advantage, while having significantly more power than the 250R. But I am still on the Empulse side on this one. It's when we get to the 600s and 650s that things get competitive. Therefore, we need videos.
I would suggest these shoot outs just to get us warmed before things get serious:
Empulse v. Ninja 250R
Empulse v. Honda 250R
Empulse v. Ninja 300
Empulse v. BMW F650 GS
Empulse v. Suzuki GS500F
Empulse v. Ducati Monster 696
Empulse v. Yamaha FZ6R
Empulse v. Harley Davidson Sportster 883
Empulse v. Triumph Bonneville
Empulse v. Kawasaki Ninja 650
All of them are entry-level bikes and should be good tests for the Empulse.
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All of the body panels are painted with an automotive grade paint and clear coat. The colors will not yellow in sunlight. They also have a very subtle, but nice (IMHO) pearlescence or shimmer to them in real life, even the black. The finish is top notch. Even the matte black parts are painted for a more even, durable, and better aesthetic finish deserving of a $18k bike.
The seat on the white and black Empulse and Empulse R have a small grey insert at the back on the side of the "passenger" portion of the seat. The red Empulse and Empulse R have this panel in a very nicely matched red. For the record, our "red" is much more of a red/orange and quite vibrant in real life. The red you'll find on Ducatis and Hondas tend to be more of a crimson or "blood" red.
That's awesome news for me. Thanks for the info. I should have known Brammo wouldn't cut any corners.
I'm definitely looking forward to seeing all 3 colors in person.
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I owned a 2003 250 Ninja for several years, before I gave it to my daughter who still has it. Compared with my 2012 Zero it is much faster off the line, especially if you spin the motor up before releasing the clutch, but would get left in the dust during a 5th or 6th gear roll-on between 40 and 70 mph, in my opinion. The Ninja makes pretty good power for its size, but you really have to spin it between 8K and 12K rpm to get that power. With the Zero, the power is there instantly with just a twist of the throttle.
And with all due respect, having just ridden the Empulse R as well as the 2012 Zero a couple of months back, the Empulse off the line is WAY ahead of the Zero. Haven't ridden a Ninja 250 but I'd put my wagers on the the Empulse after Steve Atlas judged it to be comparable to a 650 twin, which, by the seat of my very much less educated pants, felt about right.
And the summation of all of our suppositions here pretty much misses the operative point which you bring up in your last sentence: the way cool thrill of these bikes is the instant availability of their torque delivered to the rear tire pretty much any place in the RPM range. It's really a gas, or whatever the electron equivalent of that term is. (It's an amp?)
While, the Zero's computer throttle mapping seriously dampens back the that torque for the first 10 mph or so, the Empulse lets things fly much more so. Being thrown down the road with almost no noise, no matter what your moto's rpm is doing, is very much of a rush, beyond what figures on a stopwatch can tell us. At least that's my experience and the cause of my shelling out some cash for one of these puppies. Oh, yeah, and the paint's nice too.
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One thing that I think always gets overlooked is the accessiblity of the performance of these bikes. Let's take for example a normal sportbike encounter... the stoplight drag race. If you're planning on launching your Ducati Panigale off the stoplight at near its maximum acceleration, you'll need to get your timing just right... revs way up (everyone staring at you now)... wait for the light... wait... wait... then perfect finesse of clutch release and throttle application... too much and the bike wheelies, too little and it bogs and everyone laughs at you for making such a ruckus. Meanwhile, our hero on the Empulse simply waits for the light to turn green, twists the throttle and acheives the optimal launch, every time, over and over and over... while the Panigale owner botches it 9 times out of ten. While the Empulse may not compete with a Ducati Panigale in "on-paper" acceleration, my experience tells me that in the real world, the performance the bike does have is far more accessible to the everyday rider. This is what I believe you're hearing about in the rider's real world reviews. It's not imagined, the bike IS faster more of the time, in more conditions, for more people...
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The things I find appealing about the Empulse...sitting at a light, clutch out and not stalling...crazy...twist and go easy with a shifty attitude.
And city riding...I don't know it I would do this or not...but the ability to just put the bike in second gear and not shift at all...it is really the best world of single gear and shifty. Stuck in traffic? Just put it in 1st or 2nd and never touch the clutch...hitting the mountain twisties? Highway driving? Shift away.
As much as I love the Enertia Plus, the Empulse is very tempting. In the city ease of the Plus, but a two seater AND the ability to shift...seems like a real Win Win.
Nice job Brammo...now make a ton of them...fast :)
Gavin
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It's not imagined, the bike IS faster more of the time, in more conditions, for more people...
No surprise, Brian, from the director of product development: you nailed it.
Matter of fact, please file away your Panigale scenario as the basis of a great video ad. Maybe a bunch "hot" ICE bikes encountering the Empulse at various lights. Then, after stalls, and spin outs, and wheelies, and more stalls as the Empulse screams off down the road every time... a simple tag line at the end, read by James Earl Jones or Dennis Haysbert: "In the real world, on more occasions, for more riders, Empulse. Perfect."
BTW, this actual scenario actually happened to me recently at a light with a "badass" Harley rider (i.e. sleeveless leather vest) revving his straight pipes, after I filtered up along side him on my almost silent yellow and black bumblebee 500cc TMax scooter with my fancy I-talian racing variator and dayglo green Schuberth helmet and ATGATT.
Light turns green, I snap the throttle. He stalls. In my mirrors, I could almost make out the smoke emerging from under his half-helmet. He roars up to the next light and we repeat the same thing. Third light, he starts up normally, roars past me in about a half block as I waive him the peace sign.
Life is good. Better on an Empulse! (Not a bad tag line for your ad!)
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a simple tag line at the end, read by James Earl Jones or Dennis Haysbert: "In the real world, on more occasions, for more riders, Empulse. Perfect."
Great, except now, whenever I hear Dennis Haysbert, I think of Allstate Insurance. How about Morgan Freeman? Or, if we're going for the motorcycle riders, Ewan McGregor?
Life is good. Better on an Empulse! (Not a bad tag line for your ad!)
Damn, SSU. Are you an ad man? I really love both of these.
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Damn, SSU. Are you an ad man? I really love both of these.
Nah, just got a master's degree in creative writing about a thousand years ago. You know: the degree that, along with 3 bucks, will get you a cup of coffee!