Brammo Owners Forum
The Brammo Buying Experience => Wanting to buy => Topic started by: EmpulseRider on May 16, 2012, 05:16:21 PM
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For those who dont follow me on Twitter... :(
I have just updated my TCO calculator and PV Calculator apps... :)
Check em out:
TCO: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php)
PV: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/pvCalculator.php)
Let me know what you think! You can also share TCO charts like this one:
http://bit.ly/KzoZ62 (http://bit.ly/KzoZ62)
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Empulse TCO now completely blows compared to the SV650. :(
So I checked the Enertia Plus. I saw this listed:
Brammo Rebate: -$2500.00
Looks like an error in the calculator. Either that or there is a rebate I don't know about???
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Oh, thats the Brammo Loyalty rebate... if you owned an Enertia, you are eligible for the 2500 rebate... though Brammo has not mentioned it lately.
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In Virginia:
Empulse R v. Kawasaki Ninja 250R
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4.05&mpg=61&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4.05&mpg=61&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 153,762 miles :'(
Empulse R v. Yamaha FZ6R (2012)
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=12&msrp=7590&gC=4.05&mpg=43&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=12&msrp=7590&gC=4.05&mpg=43&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 92,566 miles :'(
Empulse R v. HD Sportster Iron 883 (2012)
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=4&msrp=7999&gC=4.05&mpg=51&oCC=40&oCI=5000&sC=600&sI=10000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=4&msrp=7999&gC=4.05&mpg=51&oCC=40&oCI=5000&sC=600&sI=10000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 81,994 miles :o (didn't expect HD to do so well).
Empulse R v. Suzuki GSXR600 (2011)
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=9&msrp=11599&gC=4.05&mpg=44&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=9&msrp=11599&gC=4.05&mpg=44&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 61,058 miles :-\
Empulse R v. Honda 600RR (2011)
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=5&msrp=11199&gC=4.05&mpg=36&oCC=40&oCI=8000&sC=550&sI=16000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=5&msrp=11199&gC=4.05&mpg=36&oCC=40&oCI=8000&sC=550&sI=16000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 56,313 miles :(
Empulse R v. Triumph Speed Triple (2012)
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=11&msrp=11999&gC=4.05&mpg=42&oCC=40&oCI=6000&sC=650&sI=12000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=11&msrp=11999&gC=4.05&mpg=42&oCC=40&oCI=6000&sC=650&sI=12000)
TCO Break-Even Point: 48,695 miles :)
Empulse R v. Ducati Streetfighter 848
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=3&msrp=12995&gC=4.05&mpg=44&oCC=40&oCI=5000&sC=800&sI=7500 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=3&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=2&kWhC=0.11&eRng=121&bR=0&iceID=3&msrp=12995&gC=4.05&mpg=44&oCC=40&oCI=5000&sC=800&sI=7500)
TCO Break-Even Point: 31,302 miles 8)
The Enertia Plus did MUCH better even without the loyalty rebate (i.e. TCO Break-Even Point: 22,302 miles against the HD). It wouldn't make safe highway speeds, but maybe the photo below is the way to go... ;)
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Oh, and thanks, Empulsebuyer! The calculator is really cool!
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Glad you had fun with it! Yeah, its a little harder to gain the TCO advantage with the higher MSRP and the federal rebate missing now... just have to ride EVERYWHERE and rack up miles. The cool thing is that there is always a break even point where the Empulse / E-moto comes out on top, just a bit higher miles now. It will be interesting to see if electric motors outlive ICE counterparts... I think at 50k most ICE motorcycles are shot and need at least a rebuild, especially the sportier variety. Battery life at 1500 cycles to 80% capacity are a non-issue IMO. I have heard some wild claims about the longevity of electric motors, but have not seen or heard of any real world use examples.
That Enertia/RR mashup doesnt look half bad! Nice!
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An Enertia Plus with a fairing probably would do 70 mph. Though I still probably wouldn't use it much on the highway.
I'm planning to find out how accurate the wild claims of EV reliability are. Will update every few thousand miles (breaking 2k today .. still a ways to catch up to Gavin!).
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I will probably adjust the TCO calculator for CO numbers... instead of calculating the tax break based on the current comparison, I will have it output the actual tax break according to this form: http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue/REVX/1193047059436 (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue/REVX/1193047059436)
Depending on the ICE used in the comparison the Empulse tax break usually comes up wrong... (<$6k) should be 6k, though I cannot confirm that until Brammo gives CO a comp to price the tax break on. I would imagine it would be the Ducati Monster 696 at $8795, which actually has similar specs.
2012
Empulse: 16995 - 8795 = 8200 * .75 = 6150 (Cap reached at 6000) = Tax Break 6000
Empulse R: 18995 - 8795 = 10200 * .75 = 7650 (Cap reached at 6000) = Tax Break 6000
2013
Empulse: 16995 - 8795 = 8200 * .65 = 5330 = Tax Break 5330
Empulse R: 18995 - 8795 = 10200 * .65 = 6630 (Cap reached at 6000) = Tax Break 6000
So when the 2013 Empulse finally arrives, the tax break will make the difference between the 2 $1330. :-\
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On the other hand, maybe $1300 isn't a bad price to get the bike six months early + the better suspension and carbon fiber plumage..
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I was taking a look at the TCO Calcuator, and realized that the $19k for the Empulse R is nowhere near the actual price that I'm going to have to pay.
I presume that I would have to pay sales tax (I wonder if I could avoid paying that because I ordered the bike over the Internet...) and then there is probably going to be a delivery fee, registration fees, and who knows what else? I wouldn't be surprised if the total cost ends up being close to $21k. (Ouch.)
I'm going to try to make myself feel better about this by going into a Harley Davidson show room and seeing what kind of bike I can get for $19k, and then be happy that I'm going to get something way cooler (to my taste).
(Kind of like the guy who's hitting his head against the wall. When asked why, he replied that it felt good when he stopped. :P)
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Yep.
Zero S ZF9
$14000 sticker
$400 shipping
$350 1st year insurance
$700 taxes and title
= $15450
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Was there an option to compare the 2012 ZF6 and ZF9?
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Sorry Frodus, those have been removed and replaced by the 2013 model Zeros. But the S/DS ZF8.5 is the same price as the old ZF9. Nothing around the price of the ZF6 though :-\
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you acted faster than the zeromc website admin - they still only show the 2012 models. But its already late januar of 2013 :|
Man, I wanna know hoch much for the chademo quickcharge option, kinda disappointing.
edit: spelling mistake.
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Can you put em back? I wanna calc with the 2012 and the 2500 cash for carbon deal they have.
- sent from my Android phone
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Oh yeah... hmmm. That's a neat program. Yeah, I will try and get em back online this week.
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2013 Zero XU ZF5.7 is the spiritual replacement for the 2012 S ZF6 in my opinion. Top speed decreases slightly, but range is better and acceleration should be markedly improved. Price drops $1k.
It would be nice to have a user-defined electric motorcycle, for this reason.. could also be used to compare used electrics.
2012 S ZF9 should be ($13995 * (1 + local sales tax rate) - state incentives) * 0.9 - $2500 - gas trade-in value. I think. Ignoring sales tax, state incentives, and trade-in value, this would put the Zero S price at $10.1k.
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I'm not sure you have included the 1qt of oil the Empulse's transmission needs every 3000 miles, or have you?
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2013 Zero XU ZF5.7 is the spiritual replacement for the 2012 S ZF6 in my opinion. Top speed decreases slightly, but range is better and acceleration should be markedly improved. Price drops $1k.
It would be nice to have a user-defined electric motorcycle, for this reason.. could also be used to compare used electrics.
2012 S ZF9 should be ($13995 * (1 + local sales tax rate) - state incentives) * 0.9 - $2500 - gas trade-in value. I think. Ignoring sales tax, state incentives, and trade-in value, this would put the Zero S price at $10.1k.
OK, I will add a custom selection for EVs as I have for ICE motorcycles in the next revision.
I'm not sure you have included the 1qt of oil the Empulse's transmission needs every 3000 miles, or have you?
Not sure if the cost for a quart of oil is worth adding... whats a quart of oil, 5 bucks? I really want to keep the form as simple and clean as possible.
Thanks for the feedback fellas!
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Can you put em back? I wanna calc with the 2012 and the 2500 cash for carbon deal they have.
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OK Frodus, the 2012 Zero S / DS models are back in the calculator. Enjoy!
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Thanks! Looks great, thanks for adding those.
Any chance there's a way to have a user defined "rebate" under the electric motorcycle drop down? as a way to enter in the $2500 cash for carbon deal as well as other incentives?
or a way to compare two electrics? I'm trying to narrow down things between a 2013 Zero and an Empulse
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Comparing electrics is basically down to comparing MSRP and various incentives if applicable.
If you use city/highway range, the Empulse gets 77 miles from 9.3 kWh nominal battery capacity (142 Wh/mile @ 85% charge efficiency) and the Zero S ZF8.5 gets 70 miles from (probably) 7.6 kWh nominal battery capacity (127 Wh/mile @ 85% charge efficiency).
At $0.115/kWh, this represents a cost of $0.0163/mile Empulse and $0.0146/mile Zero.
The $0.0017/mile charging difference adds up to $170 over 100k miles. Pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things.
I think the Zero S ZF8.5 and the Empulse non-R are the most comparable of the two bikes. The ZF11.4 offers (in theory) significantly higher range than the Empulse (21% higher mixed, 25% higher highway) and the Empulse R is much better at being a sportbike.
IET and appearance IMO are subjective. The Empulse's IET should give it a small advantage in acceleration and top speed .. the bigger advantage would be if you specifically wanted the ability to shift gears. Riding both may be a good plan if you're on the fence.
Empulse non-R pros:
* faster AC charging (22 combined miles/hour vs 8.8 miles/hour Zero)
* 5-20% more range than ZF8.5
* probably more consistent performance, range due to liquid-cooled motor and battery cell heaters
* larger motor controller
* nicer brakes & suspension, sportier tires
* chain drive is more durable
Zero S ZF8.5 and ZF11.4 pros:
* ~10% more efficient, per range specification
* belt drive is very quiet, maintenance-free
* smartphone integration
* integrated storage (tank, charging cord)
Zero S ZF8.5 pros (vs Empulse non-R):
* faster DC charging (67 combined miles/hour), with optional CHAdeMO upgrade ($$)
* much lighter (350 pounds vs 470 pounds)
* $3000 lower MSRP
Zero S ZF11.4 pros (vs Empulse non-R):
* faster DC charging (88 combined miles/hour), with optional CHAdeMO upgrade ($$)
* 13-25% more range than Empulse
* lighter (382 pounds vs 470 pounds)
* $1000 lower MSRP
Edit: added a Zero S ZF11.4 comparison
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What he said... Thanks for the comparison Proto. Personally I would take the Empulse ;D.
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Thanks guys!
Lots of benefits on both sides! It's going to be hard.
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From previous price announcements in Germany it could turn out that the Empulse would be cheaper than the Zero S. maybe we need an EU version of the tool?
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Yeah... I am working on the "metric" version of the tool. I will probably use EU pricing if i can find consistent data. Hevent looked yet to be quite honest... but it is on the way. Sorry for the delay.
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Nice updates to the calculator! Tennessee needs a rebate...
"faring picture"
I am throwing money at my monitor and nothing is happening! A fairing on a E+ looks dead sexy!