Honda electric Fit

[Richard230]

My newspaper published an article by the LA Times reporting that Honda's new all-electric Fit will have an estimated EPA-approved range of 82 miles, compared with the Ford Focus EV range of 76 miles, the Nissan Leaf's range of 73 miles and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV's range of 62 miles.  The Fit is fitted with a 20-klWh battery pack and will take about thee hours to recharge at 240 volts. The EPA rates the car at 118 mpg equivalent and estimates the annual fuel cost at $500.

[protomech]

Too bad it's lease-only. And $400/month is rather expensive compared to the Leaf (which was just bumped down to $290/month) .. though that's oversimplified, I don't know what upfront cash is required for either.

[protomech]

Fit EV is $389/month for 36 months (total $14004). No upfront cost that I can see, lease payment covers all maintenance and collision insurance.

Notably, Honda is not making a lease-end purchase option available. These will likely end their lives crushed like the EV1. Pity.

Nissan Leaf SV is $289/month for 39 months + $2999 up-front (total $14270).

[skuzzle]

It's pretty clear that only the reason the Honda Fit EV exists is to satisfy (get around) California rules.  I think someone might have already linked this or a similar article from this forum... if not here's an interesting article:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/major-automakers-producing-fake-electric-cars-to-meet-california-emission-standards/

[Car Loss]

Fit EV is $389/month for 36 months (total $14004). No upfront cost that I can see, lease payment covers all maintenance and collision insurance.

Notably, Honda is not making a lease-end purchase option available. These will likely end their lives crushed like the EV1. Pity.

Not too shabby, I suppose.  But then again I'm a single male, and pay high insurance.  Maintenance?  What maintenance?

Given that the EV business is still in, umm, flux, leasing and crushing isn't unexpected.  Any year, some battery update may render the entire field obsolete.  Of course, the odds in any one year are greatly against this (just look at solar cells).  But big companies like Honda (or especially Nissan) and GM won't bet the farm on something too different, and it kinda makes sense if you look at it from their point of view.

Of course (here comes the tinfoil), there's the possibility that something deeper is going on, like skuzzle mentions.  Speculation is that GM wanted the EV1 to fail, since much better NiMH cells were ready (offered to GM by Ovonic) but GM refused to upgrade from Lead-Acid, and compacted them instead.  Still, I don't foresee anything upcoming soon being as big of an improvement over today's Lithiums, as NiMH was an improvement over Lead-Acid.  Really, plastic tubs of lead?  And acid?

[Car Loss]

More on-topic:  I'm surprised more companies aren't making something along the lines of the Renault Kangoo hybrid.  With lithium cells now being available in quantity, something like the Volt, but without that huge ICE engine, makes more sense.  Do the CA rules explicitly call for full electric, not PHEV?

Carlos

[protomech]

The Gen II EV1s were upgraded to NiMH from the lead acid Gen I .. AFAIK the Gen II EV1 were fielded.

The Ovonics NiMH were around 60 Wh/kg, I believe the lead acid packs were around 40 Wh/kg. The typical disadvantage of lead acid, very slow recharge times, wasn't really a problem with the LA EV1 .. 240v 30A charger could charge it to full in 3-4 hours.

Envia's 400 Wh/kg batteries would be as significant an upgrade over today's 170-250 Wh/kg as the Ovonics NiMH were over the LA batteries.

[Car Loss]

"Fielded" by itself isn't saying much.  I recall the number of actual end-users (not GM or its business partners) who got NiMH EV1s was close to negligible, certainly less than the originals.  But if anyone can put hard numbers on that, either way, I'll slide.

The Envia announcement was certainly curious... but then we heard nothing more.  I wish them lots of luck, but so far it looks like, as they say in the computer racket, it's "coming in three to five years."

Still, batteries will progress, whether it's due to Envia or A123 or someone we haven't even heard of yet.  And electric final drive is coming one way or another, regardless of what the upstream source is.  An electric Fit is a relatively cheap way for Honda to keep their electrical people ready, for whenever a truly competitive cell technology is available.  They just tag the program onto their existing Insight/Civic processes.  The fact that it meets CA minimums sweetens the deal.

Carlos

[ttxgpfan]

http://www.eosenergystorage.com/

So environmentally/2 year old friendly they make Lipo look like lead acid.  Twice (yes, TWICE) the power density of Lipo, and available for purchase for OEMs from what their website says.  The only problem is they have a low C rate.  They are great for cars like a compact EV (a la Focus, Leaf, etc.) as with packs that big feeds motors that small the c rate is a non issue.  But for elmotos, it's not really workable.

But then there s this from the founder of Zero:

http://www.ntsworks.com/New_Battery.html

[Car Loss]

http://www.eosenergystorage.com/

So environmentally/2 year old friendly they make Lipo look like lead acid.  Twice (yes, TWICE) the power density of Lipo, and available for purchase for OEMs from what their website says.  The only problem is they have a low C rate.  They are great for cars like a compact EV (a la Focus, Leaf, etc.) as with packs that big feeds motors that small the c rate is a non issue.  But for elmotos, it's not really workable.

Hmm, if they have a low C, then the power isn't accessible.  There are plenty of samples knocking around labs that can demonstrate high discharge, high usable density, or long life, or low cost, but so far none have hit the streets with three out of four.  Again, I get the suspicion that the small piston generator will be tagging along for quite some time, since it knocks out two or so variables.  (At least, until there are enough coils embedded in enough roads that underway charging or underway assist knocks out a variable or two.)

But then there s this from the founder of Zero:

http://www.ntsworks.com/New_Battery.html

Read the buzz on those.  They're prismatics, not pouches.  Both Brammo and Zero, plus Chevy and Nissan, went to pouches.  Tesla is basically the only company with prismatics on dealer floors.  I haven't heard a convincing explanation on how these prismatics, specifically, are that different from Tesla's cells.

Carlos

[protomech]

Neal Saiki is talking about the NCR 18650 panasonic cells. Same cells Tesla is using in the S, or reportedly a slight tweak on.