Batteries and the issues of range with Electric Vehicles.

[Gavin]

Ok. Some thoughts on why there will likely be slow adoption of EVs for the next few years.

A) yes, EXPENSE. This, like HD tvs and all cutting edge tech, will decrease over time. But in the beginning it will be early adopters and tech geeks and the socially conscious mid and upper class.

B) And yes RANGE. And this is the subject of this thread that I hoped to get some input on.

The main issue with range is that Electric vehicles are basically the opposite of ICE gas/diesel cars. With EVs you get more city miles and less highway miles. With ICE cars you get more highway miles and less city miles.

And here is the rub. For city riding, today's Electric cars and Electric motorcycles fit the bill perfectly. I have yet to ride 100 miles of city driving in one day on any motorcycle or car...in my life.

But tell a person who takes car trips or the weekend warrior who likes to ride 150 miles of highway on the weekends, and they can't take the EV's seriously...yet.

So EVs, at this time, are in essence a second car or a second motorcycle option only. And that just isn't for everyone.

And yes it has gotten better. And will keep getting better. But City range is really never an issue...the only number that matters is Highway miles. Get enough highway miles and the city mileage is overkill.

So...
2009 Enertia--20 miles of highway riding. 2013 Enertia Plus--45 miles of highway riding. 2013 Empulse--55 miles highway....Leads to (hopefully)

2017 Empulse--110 miles highway (probably close to 250 miles city...but again, that is a useless number).
2017 Enertia Plus--90+ highway miles

Much better...But still not the numbers needed to "replace" your weekend warrior motorcycle.

so that leads to:

2021 Empulse--220 miles highway (500 miles city...crazy...see how that number doesn't mean anything...are you going to ride 500 city miles in a day???)

Now we are finally at a point where you can have only one bike for commuting and weekend fun (still won't totally replace a touring bike...but with fast charging that will be doable touring numbers.)

So we are looking at either two major generations of battery advancement (7-10 years) or we are looking at lithium air or similar battery evolutionary jumps (again, likely 7-10 years for that too).

Just my thoughts...I do understand why all the companies, Brammo, Zero etc, use the larger City Mileage numbers...but I do believe that the only number that matters is the Highway Mileage. If you have adequate highway mileage the city mileage is already taken care of 10 fold.

Gavin



*a third issue is:
C) fill up time. But again, not an issue with city riding as you fill up as you sleep...or you fill up while at work. But for distance driving it is an issue currently. But again--7-10 years and fast chargers will be everywhere.

[frodus]

(Not singling you out....)

I really believe that there needs to be less emphasis on range anxiety or "perceived" need and more of a emphasis on the basic need for a shift in how people use that energy. We need to use less energy.....period.  We live on a planet with finite resources, we can't just keep increasing our energy use and assume there will be infinite power to source our needs.

I just think all this talk about how short of a range EV's have is bullshit. We need to drive less and use less energy..... If we can't do that, or refuse to do that and insist on long drives or trips.... Then we have no right to complain about limitations.  EV Technology is there for 90%+ of our driving. We've got an energy problem and people don't want to accept that.

A nice recent article on the subject:
http://www.postcarbon.org/article/1575982-the-coming-crash-our-addiction-to

And another showing how Americans HAVE started driving less, since 2005:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/americans-have-been-driving-less-since-2005/16945

So it is happening. The shift is happening.... but there's still people out there that believe energy is infinite and complain about the limitations of EV Technology. People complain they have to wait too long to refuel, or they can't go far enough.

I say that we as a species need to "Wake the fuck up"

[Gavin]

eh...we all view things from what we see, where we live.

I want to Replace ICE vehicles. To do that in the vast wide open Southwest we have to offer range.

People ride great distances out here...often at speeds over 80 mph. Tough on EVs currently. If I want to go to Santa Fe, that is 60 plus miles each way at 80 mph. And Santa Fe is close. If I want to go to Gallup it is 130 miles each way.Farmington? 180 miles. Las Cruces? I need to go 230 miles each way. And people do those drives everyday here.

As for using less energy. I use none as I charge 100% from Solar with my Empulse (no charging at work, so all my charging is at home). Clean, renewable.

Rentals....again, Portland is a GREAT city. In Albuquerque we have a couple of Zip Cars. Never have seen then in use. Sad. But hopefully will change. And Albuquerque is the biggest city in New Mexico. It will be forever before car sharing in Clovis or Jal or any of the thousands of small towns in New Mexico.
And again...I want NO ICE vehicles for everyday use (only 18 wheelers and such will stay ICE).

Heck, does Ashland have car sharing? Is it used?

Do we need to rethink things? Sure. Do we need to conserve? Yep. But there isn't 1 solution to all the problems and all the cities and for all the population.

And if we are cutting out unnecessary miles, well almost none of us would own an Empulse.
Public transportation and small, slower EVs are a better fit.

But we have the Empulse because we like weekend rides and such. Weekend rides, by definition, are unnecessary...until you include the benefits of keeping people sane by giving them fun things to do.

Gavin


me? Solar. Solar. SOLAR. I think we should make solar production free and have it on every roof top, every business.....make the Sun our bitch is my motto.

[Gavin]

And I agree with you...and I try hard to conserve and be green.

but I still stand by the statement that promoting City Miles is a useless number.

You're right...we have the batteries currently to cover 90% of our daily driving...for the city. So forget the city numbers, the only numbers important for the buyer is the Highway miles. Or for the Empulse, the Twisties Miles.

Gavin

[frodus]

Like I said, I'm not singling you out. You are using less energy, and that's a great step, I wish more people did that.

The big question is WHY do people need to travel to those places? What is the actual requirement to do so? Or is it just desire to go on a trip? Is there no train? Bus? Why can't you use one of those "unused" zipcars?

I don't think there's ever going to be a 1-size fits all solution. I think people are just going to have to wake up and realize that we can't just do what we want anymore. We have to come to terms with the fact that we may just need to change our habits.

There needs to be a shift our mindset.... and that includes me, but I don't have a problem with range anxiety. The Empulse meets 100% of my needs. When I want to go on a longer trip, I use the Audi. I see myself having an EV or PHEV as my next vehicle, but if there are more available to rent/borrow and if mass transit improves down to where I work, I may not need one at all.

[frodus]

And I agree with you...and I try hard to conserve and be green.

but I still stand by the statement that promoting City Miles is a useless number.

You're right...we have the batteries currently to cover 90% of our daily driving...for the city. So forget the city numbers, the only numbers important for the buyer is the Highway miles. Or for the Empulse, the Twisties Miles.

Gavin

I disagree. I don't think they've hidden the city/highway in any of their marketing. It may be missing from articles, but that's media for you....but I don't think City riding is more or less important than highway. I commute, and most of the riding is under 45mph, so it falls in between city and highway. I could care less about how far I can go on the highway, because I don't typically travel on the highway at full speed for most of my driving. So just because you have a different need, doesn't mean it's unimportant. I live in the city, and city is what I care about.

[Gavin]

Hmmmm, I don't think they hide the highway miles per say...and I'm not saying the city miles means absolutely nothing...I'm just saying that city miles are already covered. Every true city driver has plenty of range with either the Plus or the Empulse...or the Zero.

I live in the city. I can commute 5 days a week and never need a charge. 100 miles is great. I never have to think about riding in the city and running out of charge.

Now on the weekend one of my favorite rides is to the Mine Shaft Tavern in Madrid, New Mexico. It is 41 miles; most of them fun, twisty roads at 55-65 mph. It is a blast...and the Buffalo burgers at the Mine Shaft are great.

And the Mine Shaft ride isn't even a long ride...it is a pretty average weekend ride.

There isn't a single charge spot on the way to Madrid. So I probably can't do that ride on the Empulse. 82 miles isn't within the range at those speeds. Now I will call and see if I can use the standard 110 plug at the Tavern (I've done it before with the Enertia)...but A) that is more work and planning that most people won't do and B) I've never used the Clipper Creek charger out there...I hope it doesn't trip any breakers. Probably not, but again, more work and thought and prep than most ICE drivers want to do. and C) I will have to stay in Madrid for at least an hour, probably 2, to get enough charge to make it home.

Again...I know city miles matter to you...heck they matter to me...I live smack in the middle of Albuquerque. All of my weekday driving is city. Most of my weekend driving is city. Its just that city miles also don't matter to me as that driving is covered.

With Today's Batteries, the City is covered. And well covered. It's Tomorrow's Batteries we need to cover Highway miles and finally getting rid of ALL ICE.

People are always going to want to travel...some a little...some a lot. Heck, I don't NEED to ride to Madrid to get a buffalo burger. I can walk a mile to a Fudruckers and get one. And I don't ride to Madrid every weekend (usually only 2 or 3 times a year).

I guess what I was trying to say, and said badly, is that the concept of miles city and miles highway is just so different for EVs that it confuses people. I tell people I go 100 miles in the city and people are, "Cool, that is great. I might have to get one of those." And then they ask, "So what does it get highway (thinking like cars)--120, 150 miles?"  "No...Highway really uses a lot more electricity. So only about 50 miles, maybe 60." "Oh crap. Ok. Never mind."

And that is the part that's hard. City is covered easily. Going 100 miles in the city is slow and long and very few people do that in a day...ever. 3 hours or more of driving.
Going 100 miles on the highway is easy to do and takes barely over an hours at today's speeds. People do that all the time.

So when we have the Highway easily covered (say 150 to 200 miles between charges) the city miles will be insane...Which is why I consider city miles pointless. It's not that they are truly pointless...it's that they become unfathomable in range when sufficient highway miles are obtained.

ICE machines just don't have that huge of a difference between highway and city...and the tank is much easier to increase in size on an ICE than the "tank" of an EV.

Gavin

[frodus]

I just tell them 50-60miles at Highway speeds, and up to 120miles city driving... people are impressed regardless. Then I tell them it costs me maybe a buck to recharge the pack from empty to full.... that's more impressive.

I also think it will be a good 3-5 years before manufacturers pack enough capacity into the packs (safely) to do 100miles at highway speeds on a motorcycle. I don't think we're going to have 200mile range highway EV motorcycles in my lifetime (that'd be what, a 40kwh pack?).... if we do, great, but don't count on it. People think battery tech moves as fast as computer-chip tech.... it's not that simple.... even a 10% jump in capacity/density could take 5 years. I'm sure tech will get better, and we'll see some 200mile city/100mile highway bikes in the next 5 years, as well as more fast charging options.... but don't hold your breath for 200mi+ highway.

I still think the entire issue is that we need to shift our view of travel as humans. We can't support our energy use (gas, oil, electricity, etc) at the rate we're going. Something has to give. I'm willing to give up leisure trips that require long distances on the motorcycle at the expense of not relying on gas for the other 90%+ of my travel needs. If I want a burger an hour away, I'll either jump in my car, or I do without the burger..... it's that simple.

[implovator]

The big question is WHY do people need to travel to those places? What is the actual requirement to do so? Or is it just desire to go on a trip? Is there no train? Bus? Why can't you use one of those "unused" zipcars?

IMHO: Freedom

We Americans want the freedom to live wherever we like and to be able to go anywhere we like. Our natural resources (land, water, energy) have always been sufficient enough to provide that freedom to a large portion of our population at an affordable rate. Europe has long since hit their boundaries. They tried to continue their growth via colonialism. It worked for a while, then fell flat. So they adjusted. Some say they evolved. Others just call them socialist pansies.

I met a guy from Norway while riding at a DH bike park. His description and everything that I've read of Norway leads me to believe that they're a very progressive society. All their oil money certainly helped. Yet despite that, he and his friends idolize America for its freedom. He listens to country music. He owns a Chevelle and an old F-350 with a NA diesel motor. He slaps the rebel flag on just about everything. He's got an American flag and a confederate flag flying off of the back of his truck.

Anyhow, I think you get my point. I hate to say it, but our days of unsustainable personal freedom are numbered. We're all going to have to sacrifice a little of that personal freedom...and we are already. We're driving less, flying less, building on less land, and telecommuting more. All good things for the environment, but a tough pill to swallow for the young red neck with nothing to look forwards to but driving his big-ass pickup truck down to the lake with his old-ass bass boat for a weekend of drinking bad beer, fishing, and setting shit on fire.

This is precisely where a lot of white collar types misunderstand blue collar conservatives. The highly-educated American liberals take freedom for granted to a small degree because they have so much of it and it's rarely under threat. Education, wealth, and free time afford them a lot of freedom.

BTW, I jump around a lot with the we/they stuff. I'm somewhat representative of both sides. I'm not going to tell you how I vote, but lets just say I spend a lot of time trying to understand the other side of the aisle. Makes family get-togethers easier.

[Gavin]

I don't drive an hour for the burger...I drive the hour for the ride, and then get a burger while getting some charge

And I sure wouldn't jump in my gas car/truck for an hours ride to get a burger. Where's the fun in that?

G

[ttxgpfan]

On the racing side we'd have to have 35kWh packs to compete in AMA (50ish miles) and 45 to 50kWh to race MotoGP (75 miles).  AMA runs stock tank sizes (accept the Superbike class, which has to run tanks that will allow them to get at least 50 miles).  The MotoGP bikes are limited to 5.5gals (21 liters), but they used to be over 6 gallons and have been slowly restricting fuel tank capacity over the past decade or more.  Those are some efficient bikes.

I sort of agree with Gavin, companies are going to use their street range, which is higher, first.  For a lot of folks the city range is irrelevant as they don't live anywhere near a city, but considering how many people live in cities, it actually isn't irrelevant at all.  But car companies do the same thing.  How many times have you actually got the gas mileage mileage they have on the sticker?  It's marketing, and it is what it is.

We do need bigger battery packs, but we need faster charging too.  The batteries now can handle a 1C (80% in 48 minutes) charge rate, and even a 2C  (80% in 24 minutes) with a price to pay in longevity.  3C charge rates means full to 80% in 16 minutes, and then you start pack balancing in there somewhere.  That would require DC charging stations, and at today's pack levels shouldn't be too much of a problem.  But we also need more chargers out there.  This is why I like the level 2 chargers so much.  They aren't that expensive that restaurants and such can't afford to put them in; like Gavin's burger joint.  With people like y'all buying and using EVs people, business, and governments will see the need for stations and these stations will start showing up, and are.

I would like to add I see the ICE vehicles becoming the second vehicle, not the primary.  But for those who can't afford both and need long distance travel in their car, it's just not there yet.  For everyone else, I think they are just fine.

On a side note I had a great little debate with and 80yr-old hobby shop owner and he was telling me about how electric motors are starting to dominate the sport but feels the only way to make EV usable is swappable packs.  He asked, well what if you had to go home to Maine, right now.  I told him I'd take a plane.  But you have to wait for a flight, he said.  Well it's 2 days by car and 4 to 6 by plane.  Doesn't matter if I have to wait a day I'll still get there faster by plane, and be coherent when I get there.

[frodus]

Here's another thought.....

So marketing and media tend to go with the highest (or lowest) numbers that suit them best. Like peak HP number, peak MPG, peak torque, lowest 0-60mph time... etc.

ICE bikes get peak MPG at higher road speeds, right? From a power standpoint, they still use more power at higher speeds, but the engine is less efficient at lower speeds. It's probably using similary amounts of fuel at both speeds, but going less distance on that fuel at lower speeds, making it less efficient in terms of MPG.

EV counterparts tend to get higher MPGe at lower speeds where there's lower power needed to overcome the air friction. That's the opposite of ICE, but still I think media uses the higher number. I know Brammo is very honest and up front with both numbers, so for me as a consumer I get that information regardless.

So it's counterintuitive. It'll take a while to get used to, but you're still getting that information from the manufacturer.