Article: Leyden Energy "Li-Ion Battery Keeps it Cool"

[Phantom]

Link: http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/37607/?mod=chfeatured

"Leyden's cell technology presents a very real advantage for a vehicle battery pack in terms of thermal management, life-cycle performance, and energy density," says Brian Wismann, director of product development at Brammo, a company that is developing electric motorcycles and is interested in using Leyden's technology.

Some nice technical information about Leyden battery chemistry and where things might be headed for Brammo.

[Gavin]

Interesting... Looks like it could be a nice step up in the battery Brammo offers...

The down side is it seems like the batteries are not available yet...will this delay the Plus?

Gavin

[Brammofan]

I'm not sure when Brian gave that quote, but don't assume that Brammo is getting their batteries from Leyden. 

[protomech]

The down side is it seems like the batteries are not available yet...will this delay the Plus?

Brammo supposedly has used the Leyden Energy cells in the Enertia TTR and Empulse RR race bikes. So they're available at least in limited quantities. Brammo does need a steady productized supply of the batteries before they can launch either the Enertia Plus or the Empulse.

I'm not sure when Brian gave that quote, but don't assume that Brammo is getting their batteries from Leyden.

Oh do tell.

All the information I have seen to this point is that Brammo is using Leyden Energy cells in the Empulse, Enertia Plus, and the race bikes (Enertia TTR / Empulse RR).

Last summer, the Empulse RR had prominent Leyden Energy decals.
http://plugbike.com/2010/07/29/brammo-empulse-rr-packn-heat-at-e-power/

This summer, I did not see any Leyden Energy decals (nor decals from other battery manufacturers) on the Empulse RR.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/brammo-empulse-rr-infineon-photos/

Brammofan, do you have new information that Brammo is NOT using Leyden Energy cells in their new bikes?

Gigaom, May 22 2011
http://gigaom.com/cleantech/lithium-ion-battery-baby-steps-a-3-year-warranty-laptop-battery/
Like Boston Power, Leyden Energy has been eying the electric vehicle battery market, too, and is working with Brammo to supply the battery for its electric motorcycle the Empulse, a more powerful version of Brammo’s original e-scooter the Enertia (which I test drove here). Leyden and a vehicle maker partner were also awarded a $2.96 million grant from the California Energy Commission to produce ten electric vehicle batteries per month. Leyden seems like it’s focusing more on batteries for the laptop and consumer electronics markets, instead of electric vehicles, as it seems like the market for electric vehicles is moving slower than some have expected (see A123 Systems , and Ener1 ).

[Brammofan]

Oh do tell.
* * *
Brammofan, do you have new information that Brammo is NOT using Leyden Energy cells in their new bikes?

Just like Gallo Wine, I will tell no story before its time.

[protomech]

Pretty big change if Brammo is swapping battery manufacturers at this point. Unfortunate for us as would-be Brammo purchasers, as that's not a change you make right before you ship the bikes.

The optimistic viewpoint would be that Brammo found an even better battery technology.

The pessimistic viewpoint would be that Leyden Energy has decided they do not want to sell / support their batteries in EV applications, or that Brammo has decided against them for some technical, scheduling, or political (de)merit. In this case, Brammo is surely scrambling to find a suitable alternative .. and we can expect to see significant delays.

I wonder what Brammo is using in the Empulse RR, if not Leyden Energy cells. A123 has started to step up their support of EVs and EV racing. Brammo likes to call their battery packs BrammoPower .. lets them swap out manufacturers at will.

[Gavin]

Changing the battery might not be a huge issue as it could have been in the works for some time...

Or not and it will delay the Plus.

A123 would be a god choice except they are expensive

Eh, I have faith untill I hear Plus is delayed.

Gavin

[craigq]

Eh, I have faith untill I hear Plus is delayed.

Gavin

Quit all that talk about E+ delays. It's not certified for Canada and delays aren't going to help...

[Richard230]

When I was at Scuderia West for the display of the Empulse prototype, one of the Brammo people mentioned to me that they were getting Li-po battery pouches from a Chinese manufacturer and were assembling them by wiring the pouches into their batteries cases at the factory in Oregon. Not that things couldn't have changed since then. Or they might have just been practicing building their batteries using what is currently available on the market, until they found another supplier.

I doubt the battery assembly cases will change in size or shape, so they could use whatever fits in the case and no one would really know if a change had been made - unless someone spills the beans, or decides to perform an autopsy on a battery some day.    

[FreepZ]

In theory, changing out the battery should not be a huge deal - the biggest issue being the physical dimensions. Take a look at the White Zombie battery swap:


I would be happy to get an electric bike today, without the "best" battery, if I knew that I could put in a better (higher power density) one when it was time to replace the battery.

On the other hand, when I needed to replace the battery of my old cordless weed whacker, I had to get an exact replacement or it wouldn't have fit.

Perhaps things like cooling and battery management could also make things more difficult.

[Gavin]

Perhaps things like cooling and battery management could also make things more difficult. Undecided

Yeah both will be problems unless planned for way in advance. Battery Management is a big big issue...but hopefully thumb drive updates can take care of any changes...again it takes Brammo and others wanting to work on updates.

Cooling hopefully isn't as big of an issue...as batteries update and advance I hope they are actually smaller, lighter and cooler than current battery tech. Time will tell. It shouldn't be a huge issue with the Empulse as it has liquid cooling...but for the Enertia, Plus and Engage/Encite it could be an issue if one updates to a much more powerful battery set and the unit gets too hot.

Gavin

ps...thanks for the video...nice stuff...funny that all the fast as heck electric cars are old style cars (Black Current in Britain that is insane fast and White Zombie in the states that is almost as fast as the Current....we should get a race of the two set up somewhere   )