Author Topic: Sticker Shock?  (Read 6097 times)

860

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 05:06:41 PM »
Depends on the definition of 'close'.

SV 650 0-60 in 3. something secs, Empulse around 5 which probably means 5. something.
SV 650 top speed a lot more than 100mph.
SV 650 Big engine braking with the thumpy V twin. Handling to satisfy beginners to advanced riders, possibly similar to the Empulse.

Looks  - subjective but I reckon the Empulse has it there.


I have a slightly different personal perspective on this with my own personal comparison to my own SV650.

1)  My SV650 is over 10 years old and maintained by me personally.  My SV can't possibly still do the 3.6 second 0-60 that it was rated for at sea-level when new, a decade later at 5,280 feet of altitude.  I'm thinking my SV is somewhere in the low 4's at 5,280 altitude.  I actually intentionally down-sized to a slower bike when I bought my SV650, so I just need the Empulse to come close.  Since the Empulse doesn't lose any power at all to high altitude, I'm hoping that if it turns out to be a sub-five bike, I'll be perfectly happy with the 0-60.  This does mean I will definitely need to test drive before I buy, since no magazine review or stats will be able to compare my decade old abused SV650 ridden at altitude to an Empulse.

2)  Like I mentioned before, I intentionally downsized to my SV650.  One big reason for that was repeatedly looking down at my speedo on the interstate through town and being shocked to read 140 mph without even really trying.  I had some scary close calls, and decided I didn't want to have anything to do with that ever again.  Since I got my SV650, I can count on one hand the times I've exceeded 100 mph, none of which have been within the last 5 years.  So for me the SV650 and the Empulse are in a dead tie for top speed.  Because they will both go exactly as fast as I want to go, because I'm the limiting factor instead of the bike's top speeds being the limiting factor.   YMMV.

3)  When it comes to engine braking, I'm hoping the rear wheel regenerative braking that the Empulse is supposed to have will somewhat mimic my SV650's user-friendly compression braking.  Only a test ride will tell, but for the purposes of bench-racing, I'm scoring them as a tie until I find out differently.  As for the lumpy part, I'll be glad to get rid of the buzzing, vibration, and noise of my lumpy v-twin.  Clear win for the Empulse.

4)  Looks -- I prefer the cleaner, more refined look of the new Empulse/Empluse R over the somewhat thin and unrefined original prototype.   When I looked at the Zero S in person, the first thing that I noticed was the lack of substance.  It just looked small and frail and skinny.  I'm not a little guy, so I was a bit concerned about the original Empluse prototype being too much like the Zero S in that regard, except with a fat rear section behind the seat that always looked odd to me.  I like the more substantial presence of the new bike, and I really love the minimalist tail.  For me the Empulse is the clear winner.

A couple of more categories:

5)  I can't buy a brand new Brammo Empulse non-R until next year.  But being 1416 on the list, I never thought I'd get one before then anyways.  And I can't buy a brand new SV650 at any price at all, because they quit building them.  Win for Empulse (without the R).

6)  I hate putting gas in my bike.  I used to joke about filling up my gas tank using just change found in my couch after parties, so it was free to me.  Not so much these days, and the price is just going to keep going up over the years, and I hate being a forced participant in the whole oil thing.  But my work is Green and EV-friendly, so I'll be charging the Empulse exclusively at work for free on M-F using Xcel WindSource wind power.  I won't bother to plug it in at home except on the weekends, where I'm hoping to eventually charge it on solar.  Yea, that is a pretty silly reason to spend 17K on a motorcyle.  But it pleases my inner cheapskate, and my inner green, so the clear win goes to the Empulse.

7)  Colorado has rocking incentives, so my final price won't be 17k.  Without incentive, the SV650 is the winner.  When the incentive is announced, I'm hoping it will be high enough I can score it as a tie.  Because in my mind the Empulse is worth more to me, even though it will cost more even after incentive.  I do feel sorry for anyone who doesn't live in Colorado.


I've never even considered putting the Empulse up to a head-to-head comparison with anything faster or more modern than my SV650.  So talk of comparing it to something like a speed triple just sounds absurd to me.  But I actually sold my speed triple because it was too damn fast in order to buy my SV650 in the first place.  So if the Empulse really could go toe-to-toe with a speed triple, I wouldn't be all that interested either.  I'd be looking for a slower Brammo.  Again, YMMV, but the Empulse might just be the "just right" size that I find much more fun to ride compared with the hyper-fast bikes like the speed triple.  I'm still waiting for my test drive to make that final call.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 05:21:09 PM by 1416 »

Richard230

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 05:49:17 PM »
Today my local Shell gas station raised its price for regular fuel to $4.37.9 a gallon and the newspaper says the price is likely to go up another 20 cents a gallon in California soon. That is also sticker shock.

As far as getting to 60 mph quickly goes, I could never match the magazines' test results (except with my Zero, which takes no skill to get moving) as I am not all that skilled feeding in a clutch while keeping the motor on the "boil" like the magazine testers can do with a high-reving IC engine.  It will be interesting to see what it takes to get the Empulse off the line quickly. Will you need to rev it up, or will you just dump the clutch and let the motor's torque move you along?

The power curve for the 2012 Zero S, published by Cycle World in their June issue, shows a flat 40 lb.-ft. between 1000 rpm and 3000 rpm, with oddly no reading below 1000 rpm. So I guess if Zero had a clutch, you could just rev up the motor a little and let out the clutch to get maximum acceleration. 
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

860

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 06:23:50 PM »
Today my local Shell gas station raised its price for regular fuel to $4.37.9 a gallon and the newspaper says the price is likely to go up another 20 cents a gallon in California soon. That is also sticker shock.

As far as getting to 60 mph quickly goes, I could never match the magazines' test results (except with my Zero, which takes no skill to get moving) as I am not all that skilled feeding in a clutch while keeping the motor on the "boil" like the magazine testers can do with a high-reving IC engine.  It will be interesting to see what it takes to get the Empulse off the line quickly. Will you need to rev it up, or will you just dump the clutch and let the motor's torque move you along?

The power curve for the 2012 Zero S, published by Cycle World in their June issue, shows a flat 40 lb.-ft. between 1000 rpm and 3000 rpm, with oddly no reading below 1000 rpm. So I guess if Zero had a clutch, you could just rev up the motor a little and let out the clutch to get maximum acceleration. 

Good point about the clutch complications affecting 0-60.  I'd say I have a medium-hard clutch dump for most of my riding, but I'm nowhere near the kind of hard dumps the magazines do.  That will impact my perception of speed too.

As for the Empulse, I don't think you need to dump the clutch at all to start.  Just stick it into gear and let out the clutch while sitting at a dead stop.  Then when you want to take off, just twist the wrist.  I don't think revving and dumping the clutch will be necessary.  It might make for some really fun burnouts and wheelies though!    ;D

skuzzle

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2012, 01:19:46 AM »
I visited a Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki (big place) dealer today.  I saw a new Honda St1300 "on sale" for just under $17k.  The 600RR was about $11k, also on sale.  These things have gotten expensive.  The Empulse doesn't look so bad now.  Although, the new VFR1250 for $5000 off looked pretty good.

amahoser

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2012, 12:16:43 PM »
If you are looking at comparison shopping, I disagree. An St1300 is a big horsepower Sports Tourer that is in no way comparable to an Empulse. A 600rr is an all out sports bike... same thing, not comparable to an Empulse. I get where you are coming from. It seems that bike prices, in general are rising and that, I agree with you.

For me, it was the opposite. When I walked into Hollywood Electric, I couldn't get a grip that the little Zero Electric would cost more as my Concours 1400 that I just bought last year! The Concours has about 150hp, heated grips, power windshield,traction control, ABS and linked brakes! And after they announce the final price on the Brammo, its even more of a sticker shock for me.

So lets compare the Brammo to its closest ICE bike. A Ducati 696 Monster would be close. I think the R would have better suspension specs but the Duc will have better power (and probably better handling because its lighter). You can pick up one at the dealer for an MSRP of $8,795. How about a Triumph Street Triple? This bike is a wheelie machine! Insane power for its size(105 hp), great handling and can be had at an MSRP of $8,899. Now, ICE bike MSRP is usually quite negotiable and you can work down from there.. so even the non R is twice the cost of its "competitors".

So in my opinion the price of new technology is still quite high, very high. I still want one but now, Im holding off a bit and getting a reality check before taking the plunge.

Jose Soriano



skuzzle

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2012, 01:03:44 PM »
Quote
If you are looking at comparison shopping, I disagree. An St1300 is a big horsepower Sports Tourer that is in no way comparable to an Empulse. A 600rr is an all out sports bike... same thing, not comparable to an Empulse. I get where you are coming from. It seems that bike prices, in general are rising and that, I agree with you.

Yes, just looking at bike prices in general.  I don't think there would be anything to compare to an Empulse anyway.  There's the fast, but not so good on gas CBR; the better gas mileage CBR250 and Vstrom; then the no gas Empulse.

protomech

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2012, 01:57:44 PM »
Just as hard as finding a comparison gas bike (limited power but high quality components, no comparison for refuel time) .. is comparing pricing.

Out-the-door costs are relatively easy to come up with, though state subsidies will vary pretty widely. Operational costs for the electric bikes are claimed to be good, but only time and experience will tell. Future gas prices are also a big unknown, and represent a large portion of the total cost of a gas bike.

The only certain way to compare presently is to compare the initial costs, eg purchase price. I think Brammo and Zero could both make the comparison a little simpler by offering an inexpensive extended warranty, something that's rare in the gas bike world. If the bikes truly are reliable, it should cost them very little and provide for a much more favorable comparison between gas bikes and electrics.
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machone

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Re: Sticker Shock?
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 03:56:35 AM »
As usual Protomech, great post, well said!
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