Battery Breakthrough!!!

[Mithion]

This is just the beginning!

http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2012/05/22/electric-motorcycle-battery-breakthrough/

Very cool stuff!

[Brammofan]

Pretty soon, you'll get jaded like most of the rest of here.  These "breakthroughs" turn out to be years (or decades) away from practical use.  I like Neal Saiki and hope he's onto something here, but don't think I will hold my breath.

[Mithion]

I hear you but overall I like any advancements in anything to do with the technology associated with EV's, even it's their reality is far off it's still a step forward.

[protomech]

This is different from the pie-in-the-sky battery chemistry technologies that we're used to hearing about. Zinc air, lithium air, Envia, etc .. all great things, all potentially very far away.

NTS's breakthrough claim is a way to cheaply and tightly package cylindrical cells in a way that they're very easy to individually monitor, control, and service. The original Zero bikes (2008-2011) used Molicel NMC lithium 26650 cells and the 2008-2011 Brammo Enertia used Valence LiFePO4 18650 cells, packaged into 6 sub-modules (UCharge U1-12XP).

Both Zero and Brammo have switched to pouch cells for their 2012 bikes.
Nissan, Chevy, Mitsubishi (IIRC) use pouch cells for their designs.
Honda used cylindrical NiMH until 2012. They are using prismatic lithium cells now.
Fisker uses A123 pouch cells for the Karma.
Toyota mostly uses Panasonic prismatic NiMH for their closed-loop hybrids, though the Prius V uses lithium-ion in Japan and Europe. Toyota is using what appears to be prismatic Panasonic lithium cells in the plug-in Prius.
Hyundai uses LG pouch cells for the Sonata Hybrid.
Ford will use similar prismatic Panasonic lithium cells for the Focus EV and Fusion plug-in.

Tesla is the only manufacturer that I'm aware of using cylindrical cells .. the same Panasonic NCR18650 that Neil Saiki references.

Tesla is the only car company truly doing clean-sheet EV designs. Even the Leaf is based off of a common platform, though like Tesla they package the batteries in the floor.

Does a pressure-fit mechanical interconnect suddenly swing battery technology in favor of cylindrical cells? I don't know, but it'll be fun to watch.

[Mithion]

Very cool, thanks for the knowledge Protomech

[FreepZ]

News like this is pretty exciting, but also somewhat depressing to me.

Saiki makes a good point about there being a lot of competition driving improvements of the 18650 cells. I would really love it if I could get 15 kWh for "half the cost" on the Empulse using those cells.

Sadly, I don't expect Brammo to throw away the research that went into developing the Brammo Power™ BPM15/90 Lithium-Ion battery. My guess is that they are going to stick with that technology since it was developed in house and they probably need to justify the development cost.

I wonder what the difference in energy density is between Saiki's battery and the BPM15/90. Taking another look at the Empulse, the battery isn't all that big. A lot of the volume of the bike's core is all that stuff above and below the battery. (Motor controller and recharging hardware?)


Breakthroughs like this are very nice, but they are going to cause the Empulse to age pretty quickly. Buying a new PC every two years to catch up with technology is fine, but buying a new $20k bike every four years isn't something that I can afford. (Heck, buying a $20k bike just once is a bit too rich for me.)
It would be nice if Brammo had a buyback program, where they take the old bike back and sell me a new one, and then upgrade and resell the old one to someone else. I doubt that would happen... Oh well.

[Phantom]

   (Heck, buying a $20k bike just once is a bit too rich for me.)

I agree, but I made a decision to buy the Empulse as my first luxury vehicle purchase because the technology is cool,  it helps to reduce local pollution, it has low operating costs, it will be a blast to ride and life is too short.

It would be nice if Brammo had a buyback program, where they take the old bike back and sell me a new one, and then upgrade and resell the old one to someone else. I doubt that would happen... Oh well.

I believe this will happen in one form or another. I asked Brammo about this and trading in my Enertia to a Brammo dealer may be how it happens. Brammo did offer exisiting Enertia Classic owners a $2,500 loyalty discount to upgrade to the Enertia Plus. Brammo is also encouraging a used bike market to get more people on used Brammo motorcyles without having to pay at new price levels.

[EmpulseRider]

News like this is pretty exciting, but also somewhat depressing to me.

Saiki makes a good point about there being a lot of competition driving improvements of the 18650 cells. I would really love it if I could get 15 kWh for "half the cost" on the Empulse using those cells.

Sadly, I don't expect Brammo to throw away the research that went into developing the Brammo Power™ BPM15/90 Lithium-Ion battery. My guess is that they are going to stick with that technology since it was developed in house and they probably need to justify the development cost.

I wonder what the difference in energy density is between Saiki's battery and the BPM15/90. Taking another look at the Empulse, the battery isn't all that big. A lot of the volume of the bike's core is all that stuff above and below the battery. (Motor controller and recharging hardware?)


Breakthroughs like this are very nice, but they are going to cause the Empulse to age pretty quickly. Buying a new PC every two years to catch up with technology is fine, but buying a new $20k bike every four years isn't something that I can afford. (Heck, buying a $20k bike just once is a bit too rich for me.)
It would be nice if Brammo had a buyback program, where they take the old bike back and sell me a new one, and then upgrade and resell the old one to someone else. I doubt that would happen... Oh well.

If the Empulse fits your needs just fine there is no need to upgrade down the road, unless you absolutely have to have the latest and greatest. I plan to keep mine a long time simply because it satisfies 99.9% of my commuting and recreational needs... I dont need something that gets >100 mile range, or even >50 for that matter. The beauty of an EV is that there is always a point where its more cost effective than a conventional vehicle, just depends on how many miles before cost parity is reached.

Put enough miles on the Empulse, and it could be the cheapest motorcycle you have ever owned.

[FreepZ]

If the Empulse fits your needs just fine there is no need to upgrade down the road, unless you absolutely have to have the latest and greatest.

That is true. Sadly, the Empulse does not meet my needs. I need it to go 70-80 mph for about 30 miles, then 65-70 for another 30 miles, and finally about 35-45 for another 30 miles. With 9.3 kWh, I'll be lucky if I can make the whole trip at 55 mph. (Here's what I'm trying to do with the bike.) If I had a 15 kWh battery (or even 13 kWh), I would be a lot happier.

My minimum requirement is to do 40 miles @ 45 mph and 40 miles @ 55 mph. If the Empulse R cannot do that (with a bit to spare since the battery will wear out) then I'll just have to wait for a bike that can. (I hope someone does some tests soon so I can see what's possible.)

[Richard230]

So far I am satisfied with the performance and range of my Zero. I am pretty sure my 9 kWh Zero S would travel 40 miles at 45 mph and then 50-55 mph mph for another 40 miles, especially if you didn't have to go uphill much or have to ride against a wind.  Pushing it to up to 60 for those additional 40 miles might be pushing your luck. 

With the Empulse's slightly greater capacity battery pack and the advantage of its gearbox, I think it would be able to meet FreepZ's minimum travel needs.  But I wouldn't be willing to bet $19,000 on it.

[protomech]

So far I am satisfied with the performance and range of my Zero. I am pretty sure my 9 kWh Zero S would travel 40 miles at 45 mph and then 50-55 mph mph for another 40 miles, especially if you didn't have to go uphill much or have to ride against a wind.  Pushing it to up to 60 for those additional 40 miles might be pushing your luck.

Comparing nominal to nominal, the 9.3 kWh Empulse is 17.7% larger than the 7.9 kWh ZF9.

I think those speeds / distances are just outside the reach of the Zero. Too bad, because that's almost exactly the range I need for an 82 mile trip to visit my mom.

In normal riding, I see about 60 miles range at 50-55 mph, sometimes a little over .. maybe 80 miles range at 40-45 mph. 2/3 the pack for 40 miles @ 50-55 mph and 1/2 the pack for 40 miles @ 40-45 mph means you need a mid-way recharge.

I think the Empulse will be able to do FreepZ's lower speed 80 mile route with a small amount of reserve (5-10%). 60 miles at 65-80 mph is the killer.

My recommendation for EV purchases is basically the same as computer purchases: buy what you need, when you need it. We're not going to see quite the same rate of improvement as we do with computers, but the depreciation curve is similar and the dollar amounts are an order of magnitude higher. If you plan to buy new every year it will get very expensive very quickly. If you buy once and hold onto it for a number of years, or buy used and sell used, the costs are much more reasonable.