Charging Stations - options

[flar]

I think Brammo could offer an Empulse with two onboard chargers with a bit of repackaging. I don't think it would be enough IMO to bump it into the next "class" of charging - 20 miles/hour up to 40 miles/hour is a nice improvement but it's not going to enable you to really travel cross-country. So perhaps the packaging compromise was not deemed worthwhile .. for the majority of owners.

Are you referring to adding another charger at the same wattage?  It already gets over 30MPH on 12A L2 charging with just the first onboard charger.  Doubling that would get you over 60.  Nice, but I'd rather see a CHAdeMO option instead.

[Richard230]

I think Brammo could offer an Empulse with two onboard chargers with a bit of repackaging. I don't think it would be enough IMO to bump it into the next "class" of charging - 20 miles/hour up to 40 miles/hour is a nice improvement but it's not going to enable you to really travel cross-country. So perhaps the packaging compromise was not deemed worthwhile .. for the majority of owners.

Are you referring to adding another charger at the same wattage?  It already gets over 30MPH on 12A L2 charging with just the first onboard charger.  Doubling that would get you over 60.  Nice, but I'd rather see a CHAdeMO option instead.

CHAdeMO is a great system - but Zero wants something like $1800 for the plug and whatever else you need to hook it up to the bike.  You really have to want fast charging at that price.  I'll stick with Level 1 or Level 2 (if I could use it) for now. Maybe the price will drop in the future.

[flar]

CHAdeMO is a great system - but Zero wants something like $1800 for the plug and whatever else you need to hook it up to the bike.  You really have to want fast charging at that price.  I'll stick with Level 1 or Level 2 (if I could use it) for now. Maybe the price will drop in the future.

That's very true - not for the faint of heart.  I'm hoping the cost will come down over time.

But adding a second charger would add a lot more weight for only double the charge rate.  Adding CHAdeMO could bump it up quite a bit more for not much weight.  CHAdeMO gets into the realm of game changing, a second charger just eases the wait a bit...

[frodus]

~9lbs for an extra 3kw of charging though (Eltek powercharger 3000)..... cutting your charge time at L2 in half. We have ~10kwh, right? That'd fully charge me in an hour and a half-ish.... that's awesome. I wouldn't mind carrying around an extra 10lbs.... but it's likely that if they made a 6kw charger, it would weigh less than two 3kw chargers.

6kw of onboard charging is nothing to sneeze at.

[ttxgpfan]

What a great thread.  First I'd like to point out that there are so many EVs on the road that charging is becoming a concern.  That's freakin' awesome!  Secondly, I when I read Richard's post I immediately thought of Chargepoint or Blink.  If there are so many vehicles wanting/needing charging, that's not a problem, that's a money making opportunity.  Throw a couple of Level 2 chargers in there via Chargepoint/blink/whoever and track use.  If there is enough traffic a CHAdeMO/J1772 DC combo station would be a great addition.  Putting this stuff in and keeping them up can't cost anywhere as much as installing and maintaining a gasoline station.  If they jump on it early it's extra business.

As far as Brammo and a second charger, I am pretty sure protomech meant a DC fast charge plug which would not require another charger, just room for a plug and wiring.  I believe in both of my interviews with Brian ( http://esbk.co/2012/01/24/ttxgpod-episode-4-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo-full/ and http://esbk.co/2013/01/24/esbk-studios-episode-16-interview-with-brian-wismann-of-brammo/ ) he has talked about they are looking very hard at the J1772 combo socket.  I'd like a combo plug (@2C charge rate) with a 9 - 10kW on board charger, if we are going to fantasy land.

[Shinysideup]

This is WAY over my technical head, but if we're dreaming of a 6kw or 10kw on-board water-cooled charger, aren't we talking about something, for a motorcycle, that's BIG?

Here's a photo of the the 6 kw charger for the 2013 Nissan Leaf:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235

[Shinysideup]

That's pretty funny.  Plugshare must have a bad set of coordinates, it shows the McDonalds station right off of Tunitas Creek.  Did you grab a Shamrock Shake on your ride last weekend?    If you plot the address, btw, that's in Hayward.  Not sure you could get there from Alice's on half a charge.  It must be wrong in the DOE database as well.

Thanks, flar, I THOUGH a McD's on Tunitas Creek Rd. would be odd! I've submitted an error ticket to Plugshare.

[protomech]

I'm thinking combined miles or 55 mph constant miles btw for the mileage charge rates, not city riding. Arbitrary, yes. Empulse is 77 combined miles / 3.5 hours = 22 mph stock. Give or take.

Stock Empulse uses a single Eltek 3500 charger. I was thinking about two 3500 chargers in parallel. Should be able to max out 30A J1772.
http://www.eltek.com/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155394&cat=24672&k1=&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1

The Eltek 3500 chargers are amazingly small. Less than half the size of a shoebox each. They're liquid-cooled, plumbing perhaps could be a problem.. but the Empulse radiator should be able to easily handle the heat from two chargers.

Want more? How about a 15 kW (150A) charger that fits in a 10" x 10" x 8" enclosure? Open-source design, J1772 / CHAdeMO compatible? Charge the Empulse in about 45 minutes.. assuming the batteries can tolerate it. You'd need a 70A J1772 EVSE (rare) or two 32A J1772 plugs..
http://www.emotorwerks.com/cgi-bin/VMcharger_V9.pl

[flar]

This is WAY over my technical head, but if we're dreaming of a 6kw or 10kw on-board water-cooled charger, aren't we talking about something, for a motorcycle, that's BIG?

Here's a photo of the the 6 kw charger for the 2013 Nissan Leaf:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11235

Isn't that a 6kw AC charger?  Would DC need a big charger like that?  I thought that the reason the AC chargers were bulky was the AC->DC conversion, but it's not my area of expertise.

[protomech]

In the forum thread the Leaf 6 kW charger there is listed as a third party charger. I don't think that's the same as the 6.6 kW charger the 2013 SL and SV Leafs will use.

Yeah, the only thing offboard DC charging requires is a box that talks the protocol used by the charger (CHAdeMO/J1772 DC/Tesla). AC chargers convert AC->DC and limit voltage or current per whatever charging program is selected.

[Richard230]

So what is required to set-up a CHAdeMO charging facility in the way of infrastructure and cost?  It seems to me that you would need some sort of transformer to change AC to DC and some industrial-type power lines connected to the facility, along with a dedicated power meter.  Utilities tend to charge a lot for new lines and services.  The cost of the installation is likely to be pretty high and unless it is subsidized by an auto manufacturer, power company, or a government agency the cost could be more than any small business would want to invest, given the lack of any near future profits generated by the facilities.

Another problem is continuing maintenance.  If the facility is not at a location that is constantly "maned", it will be subject to vandalism and may fall into disrepair, which might not be noticed until someone gets there that really needs the power.  This was the problem that Bike magazine had when they tested the Zero S.  About half of the Level 2 charging stations that they visited were broken and/or not functioning and the nearby business that owned the charger had no idea what to do about it.

I still think the logical location for charging stations is at existing gas stations, but my limited experience with gas station attendants when asking them what they think about EV's is that they see them as one more threat of a continuing trend toward drying up gas sales and don't see (or want to see) any future for them in supplying power to EV's instead of gas-powered autos. What they are missing out on is that it takes longer to charge up an EV and therefore the EV customer will spend more time in their Quick-Stop store buying chips and beer.  And that is where they are really making money. 

[implovator]

Another problem is continuing maintenance.  If the facility is not at a location that is constantly "maned", it will be subject to vandalism and may fall into disrepair, which might not be noticed until someone gets there that really needs the power.  This was the problem that Bike magazine had when they tested the Zero S.  About half of the Level 2 charging stations that they visited were broken and/or not functioning and the nearby business that owned the charger had no idea what to do about it.

That's definitely a real concern. Our charging stations in the office have issues every now and then, but we have a strong enough demand that our facilities manager finds out very quickly. However, as I've been exploring my area looking for charging stations, I've found a lot of really remote and un-monitored stations. One thing I really like about ChargePoint's approach (and possibly others), is that stations are networked and monitored by ChargePoint. At an installation, at least one has a wireless modem and then other stations in the group connect to the main "proxy" station via zigbee.

[frodus]

Protomech,

It looks like the charger in mine, and from here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1760.0 and here: http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1802.0 is a Powercharger 3000, not the 3500.

http://www.eltek.com/us/wip4/detail_products.epl?id=1155391&cat=&k1=25508&k2=&k3=&k4=&close=1

And mine has a fan and heatsink underneath. I'll try and take some more pics this weekend. I want to take the panels off and take some good pictures of everything.

[ttxgpfan]

A CHAdeMO or any other DC fast charging station is expensive ($10,000 at a bare minimum I believe), but everything is self contained, such as the inverters, etc.  As far as Industrial power you do need at least 480v.  But I was thinking about this.  The new J1772 standard has 2 levels of DC charging, DC1 is up to 40kW and DC2 is up to 100kW (http://www.sae.org/misc/pdfs/chargingtable10-3-2012.pdf).  I was thinking specifically of Alice's Restaurant.  The smaller 40kW charger might be small enough to avoid having any major work by the electric company.  But that is guessing.  If not one company is selling a less expensive 25kW CHAdeMO charger.  But either would be more than enough to fill a Leaf or any elmoto in a timely manner.  I would only put one in if the smaller and cheaper Level 2 AC chargers were making money and there was enough traffic to warrant it. 

As I have read in this thread there now seems to be enough people on EVs that they are starting to report broken and neglected stations.  I think the days of unnoticed charging stations are numbered.  As far as CHAdeMO stations, the cost of them is high enough that  I do not see then ever being free ($7/hr in Chicago according to Cars.com).  That said, it seems even less likely they would be put somewhere unnoticed.

I'm not sold on the charging stations at gas stations.  I'm of the shopping mall/movie theater/restaurant theory.  The Cracker Barrels here in TN supposedly have CHAdeMO stations at them.  They line the interstate from Nashville, to Chattanooga, to Knoxville (well just short) and back to Nashville.  I have no idea if they are actually in and working.  When I get my 500 running I plan on a road trip to see.

[protomech]

Good catch on the charger, frodus. If they're air-cooling the charger then it makes more sense that they have only a single charger. Liquid-cooling seems like it'd be the way to go .. especially as the Empulse already has a nice liquid-cooling system. Perhaps the additional coolant tubing would overly complicate layout .. or perhaps hardpoints were chosen before the charger had been finalized.

I've stopped by a Cracker Barrel in TN with a working CHAdeMO charger. Sadly no bike to charge.

There's a CHAdeMO charger in Manchester, TN that I could make from Huntsville with a 2013 Zero S. Stop at Cracker Barrel, eat dinner; then continue to Nashville.