I bought a Zero

[Brammofan]

Alas poor protomech... I knew him, Horatio.  A man of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy...

Hey, congrats!  I am always happy to see a fellow zero-emissions traveler.  Enjoy your bike and definitely keep coming back here and sharing your very insightful comments with us.

[protomech]

I agree that Brammo is setting themselves up to be a significantly larger company. The deals with Flextronics for assembly, Polaris for distribution, partnerships with SMRE and Sevcon (?), etc .. all point to Brammo going for a moon shot. Brammo wants to go big or go home .. and that probably gives them a much better chance to survive when the Hondas etc arrive.

Zero is basically building or heavily modifying everything themselves in Santa Cruz. They've sold on the order of 100 2012 bikes (I assume just counting S / DS) in the last couple of months - very likely more bikes than they sold in all of 2011. Can they scale from building 50/month to 500/month? 5000/month? (there are worse problems to have How will they distribute them? Internet sales are possible (I did it!), but people generally won't buy bikes they can't see or touch (er, including me..).

At $12-14k, they won't have huge issues with scaling up yet. I assume Honda / etc know this, and they're waiting to enter the market until they can produce an ebike with reasonable range and cost.

Maybe that's two years out. Maybe it's three. Maybe I would have said the same thing back in 2009, and maybe I'll be saying the same thing in 2014-2015. I don't know when Honda's market entry is coming.. but when it does, they'll be playing for keeps. So Brammo has to balance between producing bikes to compete with Zero (small scale, rapid development in-house) and the future Hondas. A tricky balance indeed..

[860]

power in sport mode is pretty good. My GS500 is slow as motorcycles go, about 40 hp give or take. The S feels slower, in the sense of when the GS500 is in its power band.. but it's quicker, in the sense of "I need power right NOW". Power is soft below 10-20 mph, especially in eco mode - but really takes off around 30-50.

I've owned 2 GS500's.  Each time I bought one, they were great to get what I wanted from them, and then each time I sold them to get quicker bikes.  An FZ600 the first time, an SV650 the second time.  For me personally, this just cinches that if I were to get  a Zero S, it would just be for a short term goal of getting any emoto that would work, and then replace it not too much later for something quicker like an Empulse.

Anyhow. I guess I should take my name off the Empulse preorder list - but I'm very eager to see how the Empulses do, and I may be hunting a used Empulse in a couple of years.

I'd wait at least until the drawing (if that ever happens).  Besides, it may take a year or two for all the Empulse's to be built to fulfill the entire list.  Something may happen to change your mind over the next year or two.  New federal incentive?  New Brammo price cuts?  New state incentives?  You'd hate it if you dropped out, and then wanted back on again.  Just avoiding the gloating from some user named 1416 saying "hey protomech, I'm riding your Empulse, sorry you've back at the end of the line" would be enough to stay on the list...   *grin*

[protomech]

It might be helpful to have some instrumented tests. Maybe I can whip something up. (I haven't seen ANYTHING with a 0-60 figure or 30-60 figure).

The feel of the acceleration is radically different, and it's entirely possible that my butt dyno is off. The GS500 pulls pretty well once you get it up above 5k-6k rpm, but if you're not already in gear then it takes a moment to get set up. On the Zero S, you get instant response and strong acceleration in 30-50 mph, but it feels like you're building speed by being pulled forwards into a gravity well instead of being angrily pushed forward. If that makes sense..

I think the Empulse will be comparable to an SV650 or Ninja 650. I think a 600 cc sportbike would absolutely destroy it in acceleration. But we'll see - I'm open to surprise : ) The Zero is absolutely not comparable to a sportbike in acceleration.

Someone at work rides an FZ600. Nice looking bike.

I'm almost certainly not going to buy a second new ebike for several years - I fully expect to get hit with a big depreciation whammy in the first year or so of ebike ownership, and the only way I could justify swapping bikes would be to sell used and buy used.

[Richard230]

A couple of years ago, a friend showed me a cell phone app that acted like a on-the-road dynometer, using the phone's GPS and a lot of information about what you are riding or driving, such as weight and other stuff. You then whack the throttle open from a standing start and ride up to your top speed and it gave you the power output of your vehicle. I thought that was pretty cool. My friend used it on his Yamaha RD-60 and the app showed that it had 3.8 hp, which sounds about right. I don't think he has used it since, though.

I think it is going to be tough to perform a seat-of-the-pants comparison between a direct-drive EV and a 6-speed IC motorcycle. Between the low first gear and the effect of keeping the revs up and slipping the clutch are going to create completely different sensations.  The only way you are really going to compare the two is by the clock, or side-by-side over a given distance, like a 1/4 mile. In fact, seeing an IC bike next to an EV in a drag race would really be interesting.

When my GPR-S was functioning at its best, its performance felt very much like a Vespa 150 scooter that I tested, with its "automatic" transmission.

[ttxgpfan]

I predict that the next Empulse will be the Empulse 20.0.  A 450lb, 150hp sport bike slayer, that will be CHAdeMO compatible.  Performance wise it will be a tad slower than the liter bikes, but everything else will be crushed.  Honda will reply and fail in their first attempt.  OK, that last part is wishful thinking.

[protomech]

The Motenergy ME0913 in the Zero S claims 30 kW. Zero's liveforphysics says that's rather optimistic, but they've heavily modified the motor and it puts about 30 hp down at the rear wheel. So let's back up and say the motor is putting down about 35 hp, or around 27 kW peak. ME0913 weighs 35 lbs.

AC-20 is 50 hp peak, weighs 53 lbs.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/ac-20.html

Perm 156W used in the Empulse concept weighs 31 kg (68 lbs), claims 30 kW continuous if I read their spec sheets right. Should easily do 40 kW (53 hp) peak.

Conventional motors at 150 hp would be far too large. Chip Yates didn't exactly have a 450 lb bike, nor a 20 kwh pack.


Yasa has a motor under testing which claims 165 kW (215 hp) peak, >85 kW (>110 hp) continuous. They claim a motor weight of < 20 kg (< 44 lb).
http://www.yasamotors.com/technology/products/yasa-400

They have a motor more focused on torque than power which is available now.. I wonder why we haven't seen any race bikes using that motor. Although, gosh, those motors sure look like they'd fit nicely on the Mugen bike... ; )

CHAdeMO should be doable with a 20 kWh pack designed for high charge rates.

Even if the YASA motor or a similar motor is possible for production, a heavier-duty radiator, much more powerful motor controller, much heavier-duty transmission will all add weight. Brammo's batteries are already quite dense, at around 190-200 Wh/kg (as far as we can tell). Envia claims 400 Wh/kg, but they're really more like 310 Wh/kg and won't be available for a few years. To fit a 450 lb budget, we'd probably need batteries 3x as dense.

I'd love to see it happen though.


Edit: here's what Asphalt & Rubber says about the Mugen Shinden:
Curb weight: 260 kg / 573 lbs
Motor Type: Three Phase Brushless DC motors
Horsepower: 90kW / 120hp
Torque: 220Nm / 162 lbs•ft
Battery: Lithium-ion Battery
Battery output: 370V or more

Here's the YASA-400 specs:
Motor Name    YASA-400
Peak torque @ 400A    400Nm
Continuous torque    220Nm
Peak power @ 650V    165kW
Continuous power    >85kW
Peak efficiency    >95%
Dimensions    280mm x 75mm
Total weight    <20kg
Maximum speed    7500rpm


At 370V, the motor won't peak anywhere near 165 kW. I think the YASA has to be it though - the casing is the right shape and size, the torque lines up exactly, the continuous power lines up (generally people quote a peak power, Mugen is sandbagging!), the YASA is a three-phase brushless DC motor..

Probably the Mugen has 16+ kWh of battery onboard, at let's say 160 Wh/kg with packaging that's 100 kg or 220 lbs. At 573 lbs in a RACE bike, a next-gen Empulse would need to drop 120 lbs while adding lights, a gearbox (?), etc.. without being made of carbon fiber or unobtanium.

[Brammofan]

Dang, protomech.  You're a sleuth.  I always feel a bit smarter after reading your posts like this, and a bit more ignorant, all at the same time.  It's a gift you have.