Author Topic: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV  (Read 1564 times)

Richard230

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Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« on: March 13, 2012, 03:36:37 PM »
Since it is raining today, I started doodling with a pencil and calculator trying to figure out how long you would have to ride an electric motorcycle, with its higher cost, in order to save money, compared with an IC motorcycle. Since I have access to the entire Motorcycle Consumer News library, I can find out what it costs to service just about any IC bike and what they give as it fuel mileage. But it is really hard to make anything but very generalized conclusions.  It really depends upon which motorcycle model you pick to compare with which EV model.  Since I own a $14,000 9 kWh Zero S, I decided to compare it with a 2011 $4,000 Kawasaki Ninja 250R. This should be the worse case scenario (for the EV) when comparing the running costs for an IC motorcycle and an electric motorcycle. 

The Ninja needs major servicing every 7500 miles, which takes 5 shop hours and about $55 in parts and supplies. At $100 per hour (the labor rate around here), the servicing cost amounts to $555 every 7.5K miles.  The average fuel mileage for the bike was listed as 45.7 miles per gallon.  I just rounded numbers, assumed a $4.40 a gallon fuel price and 14 cents per kWh (today's numbers), neglected things like typical repairs over long distances for a small bike like the Ninja and the cost of insurance (which is lower for an el moto than an IC bike right now) and came to the conclusion that it would take about 60,000 miles of riding for the Zero to cost less to ride than the Ninja. Of course, this doesn't account for increases in fuel and oil prices and a lot of other stuff, such as replacing chains and belts (on the Zero).  But I think it shows that if you keep your electric motorcycle (even an expensive one) long enough, the overall cost per mile of riding will eventually pay for the much greater purchase price.

I then ran the numbers for the 2011 Suzuki SV650 Gladius (which I think is no longer in Suzuki's range for 2012). That $6,500 bike gets 50 mpg, but needs a $300 service every 3,750 miles and a major (5 hours plus lots of parts) $620 service every 15,000 miles. (With the Suzuki, I ignored the cost to replace the voltage regulator and alternator, which have a tendency to burn up now and then.) I estimate that the Zero will undercut the total running costs of the Suzuki after about $30K miles. Of course, this doesn't account for resale value and I have no idea what the Zero might be worth after 30 or 60K miles, so I didn't factor that in.

My conclusions are very rough and most people could punch holes in them, but I think the numbers are somewhere "within the ballpark".  The secret to getting your money's worth out of an electric motorcycle is to keep it as long as possible and ride it as much as possible, which is one conclusion that I think holds water.

I figure that the Enertia and Enertia Plus would show even better results, due to their lower purchase price.  If anyone wants to put more thought into this than I did, go right ahead.   :)
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

protomech

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 03:49:53 PM »
46 mpg for the Ninja 250 is not very good.

Ninja 250: $555/7.5k miles + $4.40/46 miles = $0.170/mile
SV650: $300/3750 miles + $320/15000 miles (assuming the 15k mile includes the 3.7k mile service) + $4.40/50 miles = $0.189/mile

The $11k Enertia Plus will likely be around 120 Wh/mi in "moderate" usage, or around 140 Wh/mi at the plug. $0.14/kWh = $0.020/mile

Assuming a $14k low-end Empulse, it should have similar operating costs to the Enertia. $0.020/mile

Compared to the Ninja 250, the Enertia would take 46k miles to make up a $7000 differential @ $0.150/mile.

Compared to the SV650, the Empulse would take 50k miles to make up a $8500 differential @ $0.169/mile.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 03:54:33 PM by protomech »
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Richard230

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 04:21:19 PM »
My daughter owns a 2003 Ninja 250 that I maintain. We change the oil every 2k miles and I perform a major service every 6K miles. That thing is tough to work on. Removing and installing the fairing is very fiddley and adjusting the valves (screw and locknut, compared with the new model's shim under bucket) is a pain on the eyes and fingers. And then there is the goofy filter that sits inside the oil sump. (Very messy to change.) If everything goes well, it takes a good 5 hours to perform and a big mess on the garage floor.

Also, her bike gets 60 mpg. Apparently the newer model does not do as well, perhaps because it needs to meet smog regulations and/or MCN rode the bike harder.

I chose the Ninja because its 90 mph top speed is comparable to my Zero and because it seemed to fall in between the Enertia Plus and the Empulse. But that was just a shot in the dark, as most electric motorcycles have more torque and it is tough to find an IC bike that is a good comparison when comparing performance.
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

EmpulseRider

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 04:28:16 PM »
Since it is raining today, I started doodling with a pencil and calculator trying to figure out how long you would have to ride an electric motorcycle, with its higher cost, in order to save money, compared with an IC motorcycle. Since I have access to the entire Motorcycle Consumer News library, I can find out what it costs to service just about any IC bike and what they give as it fuel mileage. But it is really hard to make anything but very generalized conclusions.  It really depends upon which motorcycle model you pick to compare with which EV model.  Since I own a $14,000 9 kWh Zero S, I decided to compare it with a 2011 $4,000 Kawasaki Ninja 250R. This should be the worse case scenario (for the EV) when comparing the running costs for an IC motorcycle and an electric motorcycle. 

The Ninja needs major servicing every 7500 miles, which takes 5 shop hours and about $55 in parts and supplies. At $100 per hour (the labor rate around here), the servicing cost amounts to $555 every 7.5K miles.  The average fuel mileage for the bike was listed as 45.7 miles per gallon.  I just rounded numbers, assumed a $4.40 a gallon fuel price and 14 cents per kWh (today's numbers), neglected things like typical repairs over long distances for a small bike like the Ninja and the cost of insurance (which is lower for an el moto than an IC bike right now) and came to the conclusion that it would take about 60,000 miles of riding for the Zero to cost less to ride than the Ninja. Of course, this doesn't account for increases in fuel and oil prices and a lot of other stuff, such as replacing chains and belts (on the Zero).  But I think it shows that if you keep your electric motorcycle (even an expensive one) long enough, the overall cost per mile of riding will eventually pay for the much greater purchase price.

I then ran the numbers for the 2011 Suzuki SV650 Gladius (which I think is no longer in Suzuki's range for 2012). That $6,500 bike gets 50 mpg, but needs a $300 service every 3,750 miles and a major (5 hours plus lots of parts) $620 service every 15,000 miles. (With the Suzuki, I ignored the cost to replace the voltage regulator and alternator, which have a tendency to burn up now and then.) I estimate that the Zero will undercut the total running costs of the Suzuki after about $30K miles. Of course, this doesn't account for resale value and I have no idea what the Zero might be worth after 30 or 60K miles, so I didn't factor that in.

My conclusions are very rough and most people could punch holes in them, but I think the numbers are somewhere "within the ballpark".  The secret to getting your money's worth out of an electric motorcycle is to keep it as long as possible and ride it as much as possible, which is one conclusion that I think holds water.

I figure that the Enertia and Enertia Plus would show even better results, due to their lower purchase price.  If anyone wants to put more thought into this than I did, go right ahead.   :)


I guess I have not been spamming these forums enough about the apps I have made :)
Richard230, check this out: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=0&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=9&kWhC=0.11&eRng=114&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4.4&mpg=46&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=7500

I used your numbers... came to the same conclusion, 60k miles to equal TCO with Ninja 250. Much easier using my app ;)

Richard230

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 05:22:17 PM »
Thanks EmpulseBuyer. I had forgotten about your calculator. I agree, that is much easier using that than trying to use a paper and pencil to figure out those running cost comparisons.  Frankly, I really didn't expect my numbers to be too close to a more thoughtful system. I am glad to know that paper, pencil and a cup of coffee can still produce useful information.   ;)  Now if I had been using my K&E slide-rule the results might have been different.   ;D
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

Shinysideup

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 10:45:18 PM »
Richard - There's one parameter you omitted which can't be arrived at with a slide rule, H-P calculator, or even a computer app.

When I last serviced my Yamaha TMax (BTW which I rode in the Bay Area rain today, you wimp!), while I was lying upside down, busting the knuckles of my arthritic fingers and saying genuine Bad Words trying to get the spark plugs loose with a shortie socket without a) stripping all the tupperware off, or b) pulling the whole frikn engine, I had the sodden thought:

You know, I don't care WHAT an electric moto costs! Right now I'd buy one just to avoid this kind of nonsense!

But then my oil filter isn't INSIDE the sump! Sheesh!

So, gimme a chain or belt, plus 2 tires, and I'll very gladly maintain my sweet ride, thank you!

This calculus is measured in grins.


Phantom

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 08:30:56 AM »
Your Yamaha maintenance experience should be turned into a clever commercial to sell Brammo motorcycles.

Richard230

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 10:34:50 AM »
Well, I have to admit, since I perform most of my own motorcycle maintenance and repairs, that one of the major attractions for me of an electric motorcycle is their lack of needed periodic maintenance. After having bleeding knuckles, oil soaked clothes and stained body parts, sore knees, stiff back and similar ailments from working on IC motorcycles, I really like the idea of a low-maintenance vehicle that doesn't require pain and pollution to keep functioning.   :)

As far as not riding in the rain goes (I used to do that), now that I am retired I can ride when it is sunny and dust when it is raining - which is something that I need to do now, as I haven't dusted the house in weeks.   :o
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

WanderLust

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 03:33:38 PM »
Your Yamaha maintenance experience should be turned into a clever commercial to sell Brammo motorcycles.

Oh that would be an amazing Az campaign, I can already picture it in my head.

Thanks EmpulseBuyer. I had forgotten about your calculator. I agree, that is much easier using that than trying to use a paper and pencil to figure out those running cost comparisons.  Frankly, I really didn't expect my numbers to be too close to a more thoughtful system. I am glad to know that paper, pencil and a cup of coffee can still produce useful information.   ;)  Now if I had been using my K&E slide-rule the results might have been different.   ;D

Wow that's old school, I haven't seen that since I was in engineering school, and even then we barely used them, I borrowed my father's from when he was in engineering school, almost 4 years ago...

Since it is raining today, I started doodling with a pencil and calculator trying to figure out how long you would have to ride an electric motorcycle, with its higher cost, in order to save money, compared with an IC motorcycle. Since I have access to the entire Motorcycle Consumer News library, I can find out what it costs to service just about any IC bike and what they give as it fuel mileage. But it is really hard to make anything but very generalized conclusions.  It really depends upon which motorcycle model you pick to compare with which EV model.  Since I own a $14,000 9 kWh Zero S, I decided to compare it with a 2011 $4,000 Kawasaki Ninja 250R. This should be the worse case scenario (for the EV) when comparing the running costs for an IC motorcycle and an electric motorcycle. 

The Ninja needs major servicing every 7500 miles, which takes 5 shop hours and about $55 in parts and supplies. At $100 per hour (the labor rate around here), the servicing cost amounts to $555 every 7.5K miles.  The average fuel mileage for the bike was listed as 45.7 miles per gallon.  I just rounded numbers, assumed a $4.40 a gallon fuel price and 14 cents per kWh (today's numbers), neglected things like typical repairs over long distances for a small bike like the Ninja and the cost of insurance (which is lower for an el moto than an IC bike right now) and came to the conclusion that it would take about 60,000 miles of riding for the Zero to cost less to ride than the Ninja. Of course, this doesn't account for increases in fuel and oil prices and a lot of other stuff, such as replacing chains and belts (on the Zero).  But I think it shows that if you keep your electric motorcycle (even an expensive one) long enough, the overall cost per mile of riding will eventually pay for the much greater purchase price.

I then ran the numbers for the 2011 Suzuki SV650 Gladius (which I think is no longer in Suzuki's range for 2012). That $6,500 bike gets 50 mpg, but needs a $300 service every 3,750 miles and a major (5 hours plus lots of parts) $620 service every 15,000 miles. (With the Suzuki, I ignored the cost to replace the voltage regulator and alternator, which have a tendency to burn up now and then.) I estimate that the Zero will undercut the total running costs of the Suzuki after about $30K miles. Of course, this doesn't account for resale value and I have no idea what the Zero might be worth after 30 or 60K miles, so I didn't factor that in.

My conclusions are very rough and most people could punch holes in them, but I think the numbers are somewhere "within the ballpark".  The secret to getting your money's worth out of an electric motorcycle is to keep it as long as possible and ride it as much as possible, which is one conclusion that I think holds water.

I figure that the Enertia and Enertia Plus would show even better results, due to their lower purchase price.  If anyone wants to put more thought into this than I did, go right ahead.   :)


I guess I have not been spamming these forums enough about the apps I have made :)
Richard230, check this out: http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=0&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=9&kWhC=0.11&eRng=114&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4.4&mpg=46&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=7500

I used your numbers... came to the same conclusion, 60k miles to equal TCO with Ninja 250. Much easier using my app ;)

It's a great tool (as I said before), some observations...
1) It would be nice to have a cost savings vs driving a car option...
2) More bikes :D I always thought the Ducati monster 696 was a great comp for the Empulse in terms of performance and quality components, but this is based on perception, I may be wrong...
It would be nice to see that in there...
3) It would be nice to see how much it would cost me to drive X miles with a certain combination of

Y miles via vehicle 1 (car? or other ice bike)
(X-Y) miles via empulse (or other)
4) If I compare the Empulse 10 and the Kawasaki Ninja 250R, I won't be breaking even anytime soon ;D

Richard230

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2012, 10:11:23 AM »
And here is another example of why electric motorcycles are cheaper to own and easier to maintain than the latest IC motorcycles.  Check out this story and the two photos at the bottom.   :o

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/dissecting-the-ducati-1199-panigale/20343.html
current bikes: 2018 16.6 kWh Zero S, 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 Classic, 2009 BMW F650GS, 2007 BMW R1200R, 2005 Triumph T-100 Bonneville, 2002 Yamaha FZ1 and a 1978 Honda Kick 'N Go Senior.

EmpulseRider

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Re: Comparing the cost to own an IC motorcycle with an EV
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2012, 11:06:49 AM »
Though quite complex the Ducati Panigale is a work of art... it just oozes innovation. No frame, everything mounts to the engine block! If I wasnt buying a Brammo, this would be the bike I would get in a heartbeat. Speaking of maintenance, Ducati almost doubled the maintenance intervals to every 15k miles! Still doesnt hold a candle to EV maintenance intervals though!